Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
Strange but true, the A was GOOD for our M. It took this turmoil for us to work out some MAJOR issues in our lives...trial by fire.

So, in the future, if you think your M needs another fire, will you engage yourself in an affair so your M problems can be worked out?

Probably not.

The affair in and of itself did not bring about the good result. It created a crisis where a good result was one of the possible outcomes. You as a couple struggled, fought for the good outcome, despite all the blood sweat and tears.


...I have read on here many a BS that writes, "How dare they cheat on me, I would NEVER do that to them..." And I would like to argue with that, never say never, the situation had never arisen...and maybe never would have.

The opportunity to cheat holds no interest for me because I am aware that my self-esteem depends on my integrity being upheld.

I don't cheat because I keep my promise to myself not to. Why? Because I know who I am, and I hold myself in high esteem.

I will never have an affair. Never. There, I said it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />


Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong>ANYONE could have an A. It's not a matter of character, it's a matter of circumstance, and not putting ourselves in that circumstance.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hmmmmmmmm.

I'm with Pep on this. I say now that I will never have an affair, especially after 4+ years on MB. This does not mean I am incapable of having an affair. It's a matter of my character that I will not - and did not all the years I was tempted to when my marriage was dismal. The circumstances and opportunities were present, yet I didn't and my wife did. Why? Character, my sense of right and wrong, and my faith in the Golden Rule.

WAT

(deleted because I misinterpreted something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> )

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: brownhair ]</small>

BTW ...

If a FWS says, "Good grief! What a horrible thing I did when I made the mistake to have an A. I will NEVER do that again!"

Don't we believe them? I do ... depending on the amount of remorse felt.

So... why can't a BS say "Good grief !! I never want to be on any side of an A ever again. I will NEVER have an affair!"

How is this different?

Pep

Well, good discussion, let's throw this out there.

I am confident I will never have an A either, but that doesn't mean I don't go to measures to make sure that doesn't happen. I don't have opposite sex friends, go out to lunch with guys from work, etc.

If I absolutely knew I would NEVER have an A, I would not go to those measures. See, I can't say that because I can't foresee all situations, but I foresee obvious situations and I prevent myself from getting into those.

If I knew I would NEVER have an A, I would have much looser boundaries, or rules about Rs.

See what I mean?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
[QB]

If I knew I would NEVER have an A, I would have much looser boundaries, or rules about Rs.

See what I mean? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXCELENT point !!!

Pep

SHMI,

I agree with you about the 100% trust statement. I asked my husband the same Q got the same answer and said the same thing.

I am going to take it one step further. I can tell you with 100% certainty that I will never have an affair because I take extreme measures to make sure that doesn't happen.

If I felt safe from all temptation I too would do just as I liked with the oposite sex etc. Most of my friends were male until I married, now none of them are. I have never drunk to excess and never drunk anywhere at all that was not a secure location for both H and I. And many other precations. An affair is a physical impossibility unless I change something about these measures that leaves me unguarded. If H sees that this is so..or has a concern..or picks up a funny *vibe* from me somehow..I hope and pray the he would not rely on me to be above temptation. If I were doing other than I am, it would mean that something upstairs has crossed itself..something is already at work and it NEEDS to be addressed and expunged. See what I am saying? I would already be growing foggy in order to even desire to put myself and my marriage in harms way.

I do feel I failed him in that I did trust him above what was reasonable..and particularly above what was reasonable considering how many red flags were flying. It was a denial based trust. Fear. Hope. Stupidity.

I would be willing to bet that he wishes I had brought hell and highwater to his doorstep to defog him if possible before he did this..that is what it took. A real..live..consequence..with both barrels..if it worked after, it very likely would have worked prior especially if he hadn't had the chance to feed the sickness yet. We'll never know in this case..but I can tell you with a great deal of passion that I will never stand by idly while someone that I love throwns themselves and our marriage away. Never again. I am ashamed that I was such a cowering thing.

I think we let things go too far before we act. There is always yet another chance, another..greater insult that we convince ourselves will be the one to not make us care if we leave them and they never come back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

We need to do it because we care..we care about them..and we care about our marriages..and we care about ourselves..it is OK to care about yourself and object to the state of the union and dissolve it if your needs can not be met. It is important to both parties that tolerance be the exception and not the rule.

Noodle

OK - I'll say something that I hope is interpreted as I mean it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I will only have an affair if I intend to.

i will NOT have a wimpy, insipid " I couldn't help it, it just happened, I never meant it" affair like the horsesh't we get from our WS/FWS.

I cannot say I will never find another woman attractive enough to have sex with but if I DO it will be a deliberately selfish act where I know exactly the hurt I will visit upon everyone involved.
I cannot imagine ever doing it but if i DO it will be a knowing, undeluded and deliberate selfish act.

Yes, Bob..agreed.

Here is another one that I think is 100% true..but very uncomfortable..especially for someone who would like to believe that it was unhappy chance that their boundaries did not cover their butt.

Your character determines where you lay them down. Remember, it's your kingdom..and the standards of the kingdom are your prerogative.

Would you marry someone with a dreadfull FICO score? I wouldn't. They have demonstrated to me a history of poor choices and irresponsibility. Can they change this? Sure, and when they do..when they have finished the job of correcting the problem..I would consider the issue cleared. Character is a determining factor in an A..but character is choice not chance..it is fluid, not stable. If a person wishes to have good character/high standards then they must act to make it so.

When a person has flaws untended what they are accurately communicating is that they are not a good person, and don't want to be. That *right* is less important that *pleasant*. This is not someone I would bind myself to spiritually, physically, financially.

If I had an affair..it would be intentional..because every small step taken to allow it to occur was taken by me. It doesn't mean that I necessarily will wake up in the morning and say top myself "self..lets get to work on having an a today"..but it would mean that I did not wake up and say to myself the opposite..and I should. We must always treat with respect and care what is valuable to us or expect it to be destroyed.

Noodle

Noodle,

I agree with you and I would go so far as to say that EVERY affair is intentional. Affairs require opportunity PLUS intent. Every step closer to someone else is a choice. I have yet to meet anyone who somewhere along the way didn't hear an internal voice or recieve some emotional signal that what they were doing was outside of ethical boundaries.

To remain invulnerable to affairs (not the same thing as incapable) a person muct address both issues...opportunity and intent. Avoiding opportunities easily done with good EXTERNAL boundaries that create safe distance and space in opposite sex friendships. Dealing with intent is a spiritual and ethical journey that requires good INTERNAL boundaries created by values, beliefs and conscience.

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: star*fish ]</small>

Originally posted by star*fish:
I agree with you and I would go so far as to say that EVERY affair is intentional. Affairs require opportunity PLUS intent. Every step closer to someone else is a choice. I have yet to meet anyone who somewhere along the way didn't hear an internal voice or recieve some emotional signal that what they were doing was outside of ethical boundaries.

Yes ... Otherwise... why lie and hide their affair?

Pep

<small>[ December 02, 2004, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

OK folks, get this. Around March of this year, I was in Australia for short visit and H returned back to Asia, a week ahead of me. I'm stewing away on my own, reliving the circumstances I was in when H cheated. Me in OZ, he in Asia. I am PMS'ing and I'm p'd as hell (still). There's a thread on MBs about revenge As. Some gal wrote a great piece saying she did it, it worked out and she's glad she did it - well written and convincing. H and I had one of our excruciating 1+ hr phone calls and I tell him the next "good" opportunity I get to cheat, I'm doing it. Made up my mind. But I wasn't going with any old rubbish, it would have to be someone worthwhile e.g. someone that held lot of appeal to me.

Three days later I'm on Qantas flight back to Asia. I start chatting to a flight attendant @ 5.30 am while he makes me a cuppa. I only started paying attention when he said "I love my wife but I'm in love with someone else". I stand to attention and straighten my MBs hat and hit him with a full round of ammo. We talked and talked and I realised how attractive he was. Next thing he's telling me stuff I liked hearing. Next thing we're exchanging email addresses and next thing we're hugging goodbye at the luggage collection. I have to confess I thought this guy was extremely attractive - but that's only because he was.

I don't have a problem with cheating when I'm recovering from same treatment from my S. Eye for an eye is good enough for me. I felt at liberty to do as I pleased. Kinda..

Long story short. I couldn't do it. He contacted me several times re his next stop overs and yeah, I loved the thought that I could get my own back, especially with someone so dishy (and especially if I could white out his wife, which I could juuuuuust about do... with some dog eat dog philosophy) but I couldn't do it. I wanted to make a statement to my H. And I wanted to prove to myself that anything he could do, I could do better. Sick pride? Or very deeply hurt?

I'm going p you all off coz a part of me now thinks integrity sucks. (a subject I'd like to investigate more on another thread) Regardless, I couldn't go thru with it. I got excited, felt accountable to OM e.g wanted to reward him for being interested in me, felt the call of the wild, felt irrationally justified blah blah blah. I knew the script and could see what page I was on.

I once read that some people don't have the psychological profile to cheat. I think that's me and I've read so many here who speak as I believe about my own fidelity. Thos is a prime exampe. October girl is brilliant at explaining why she wouldn't. Don't want to leave anyone out, but there is something so far unexplained about people who won't/can't cheat. Are they too honest with themselves? Pure Bob made a startling comment. It would be very deliberate, no pussyfooting around. Mmm, I think it's possible but not without a fair bit of self delusion. It's not whether you are a good person, it's whether you can successfully lie to yourself... or not?

AN

Well, I'm hoppin in on page 5! Wow, quite a discussion going on here. Reminds of one similar about 2-3 years ago. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Here's my take (for what it is worth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ):

1. Affairs know no boundaries.
2. There isn't a fit profile of a WS. They come from all walks of life, cultures, religions, height, weight, colors, education, talents, upstanding citizen, good H, good father, brother, son, uncle, etc. But the one repeating quality seen is selfishness. The A can't live without it. The greed to need at all cost.

3. We are all subject to an affair and a whole lot of other things.

4. Affairs start in the heart 1st, convince the mind 2nd and then when enacted upon it starts to show up. But according to a well spoken person, when the A starts in the heart, that is when the adultery is committed. No legal law may have been broken but the moral and spiritual one has. Emotions are the next to follow and one who allows this type of feeling and thinking to grow does set themselves up to fail and have an A.

5. The scary piece as KiwiJ brought up on another thread is that for some it hits fast and hard. Why can it hit some and others also get hit but manage to keep standing. Wobble a bit but not get completely knocked down? Hm..... one of the mysterious of life.

6. The best of the best can fall.

7. Even if the perfect words and actions were given to the WS, it stands a great chance of falling on deaf ears. Why? Because by the time the A is uncovered, it has already taken root in the heart and mind. Manipulating and conviving are already in place and the need to satisfy the A urge is now at an all cost level. Not even a WS who sees the disaster can stop the A train.

8. What to do? For a while there isn't much anyone can do. But those who have either been through it or see it 1st hand know that time, patience, clear mind and a calm heart are all vital to personal survival. Marital survival stands a distant 2nd during the beginning stages of most A's.

9. Love of family is strong. If it is for the right reasons. Some stick with their family and enable the A. Others can see that enabling the A is not healthy for the family and if a family member has to be disciplined (yes even a spouse/parent), it is because we love our family member that the disciplined is sought out and administered. Much like the way good medicine is given to someone ailing. You don't hand candy to someone with a toothache. Right?

Yet not all will see or appreciate it. Some even blame others and carry anger and again loose their foresight.

It is critical we accept blame for what we truly s/b blamed for. But it is not helpful to carry someone else's blame. Would we want our children to do so? I think not. Same should go for adults.

Misinterpretations are constantly being done. Some diliberately, others indirectly. The damaging effects can be seen in many A's. What it does is break down trust. Often hides or clouds the truth (there's that fog again). Delays healthful healing. Often one of the core reasons for wrong decisions and c/b leading to deadly consequences. Small ex: I met a lady once who mentioned something untruthful. I knew 1st hand she was wrong. I asked her for her source and she gave me her superior's name. I asked if she wanted to know the correct info from the 'horses mouth so to speak.' She said yes. I then gave her the true picture. No longer an argumentative point. 2 years later, we chanced to meet again. She did not see me standing nearby. She carried on with this other friend still spreading that lie from 2 years previous. I stepped out and reintroduced myself and asked if she recalled our last discussion. She did. I asked why would she continue to speak what she knew was not truthful. She had a smirk on her face. She preferred to stick with her lie. I was disappointed but not surprised. It was a lesson to me that I never forgot. I learned that some people, like to live a lie and all we can do is to stay out of their way. Disassociate as it may be as long as they continue on that path. (similar to plan B). Yet it took 2 years to figure that out. Patience is a key player here. We don't need to know all in 1 day.

Back to my subject about misinterpretation. Plan A is often misinterpreted. Plan B is not implemented as often as it s/b. The combo often leaves many wanting to do a combo plan A/B. Not a good idea. Sending confusing messages to a WS.

Not all WS' are the same, so a BS or whoever is at MB needs to learn the info (plan A & plan B), adapt what is beneficial (this c/b obtained with the support of reading the material/books/good MC or IC/phone counseling with MB coaches/creating an immediate support group/venting on MB as needed. Personally, I did all the above. I had to. My personal survival depended on it. For those of you that know me, I am quite a strong willed and devoted person. Like many I am a giver by nature and enjoy it. But I had to realize that my giving nature was one of the causes of my share of my M's demise. I gave sooo much, my H felt left out. Yet that was not enough to warrant the A. I did not do anything to warrant the A. Most BS are in that category.

It is one thing to have shortcomings in the M. Most of us have that but to be blamed for the or apologize for a WS having a bad A day....is NOT the fault of anyone but the WS.

The day that info got through my head, is the day my personal healing took a big leap. The need to punish myself and hold onto a WS ceased. I longed for my H but not the WS. 2 distinct personalities. I chose NOT to live with the WS. When that character showed up, he was out the door.

Eventually the Ws realized he was out of our lives and we were surviving. WS played that survival card real well. Like a clever card shark, lean to the right and bet to the left. Well, I removed my self from the table. Wasn't going to play their A game.

I used to read about how many on MB survived. Not neccessarily the M but the personal survival amazed me. It also strengthened me.

Lots of things suffered while I was dealing with the A. Mental, emotional, spiritual, financial, etc..... Yet my family survived. We have even helped others..... yes, the Ws turned xWS turned H. He left his family, his religion, his God, his relatives, his work, his friends.....just to find out, that those things are what he missed the most.

For him, the discipline was neccessary. He told me at one point that if I continued to allow him to go back and forth, he could keep up that game forever. He also told our elders (d/d +1) that he knew it was wrong but was not sorry. They had no choice. I had no choice. I could not enable the A.

Out of love for an arrangement I took a vow for, I had to let the man who looked like my H go. For he was no longer my H. I was not the only one to notice. I was not exaggerating or making this up. It also helped to know this also.

Many a BS feel alone during d/d. MB helps us see we are not alone and gives us some guidance. What I appreciate is the survival odds. Better here than on our own. I am not exaggerating about that also. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Not sure how noodle meant about 'good fences' but it is good to have fences. Respect of people and their boundaries is important. We live in a society (regardless of our locations) that tries to push those boundaries every day. We are often bombarded.

If we learn how to keep our values and respect, then we stand a good chance of not having to sit on the fence on such an imporant issue as an A or contemplating an A.

Good thread Noodle. Great posts from you all. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

JMHO, of course.
L.

Great Post Orchid!!!

I think my giant leap was when I began seeing how easy it was for me to have a Revenge A after d-day. I was open, but not looking, and staying busy and out of bars/nightspots helped immensely.

What I learned from this was to forgive my H, to see that this M was worthwhile. If I had felt his A stemmed from a character flaw I would have had a hard time not looking at him with pity and self-righteousness that I was better than him.

I realized I was no better than him, and he me, we were equals, he took it the next step...had the opportunity.

Had I not forgiven him for the A, I would still be nagging and b^%ching in righteous indignation, how dare he do this to me!

Since realizing I was no better, I could REALLY look at our M, for the first time, and see the part I played in it...what MC sessions, talks with GFs and family, and even our kids asking why we fought so much couldn't do before.

And I know I'm still vulnerable. If someone came along fulfilling my ENs far better than my H, then it would be hard for me to say no...so I don't ALLOW someone else to fulfill those ENs, hopefully I can see this before it creeps up on me.

Wow, you lot are very very deep. I moved house last week and have hardly been able to catch up on MB. Strangely, after being practically addicted, I am now reading things and thinking, move on, move on, leave all this crap behind. Time will tell.

Word has got out at my workplace that my M is on the rocks and that my WH and I have separated. Very interesting indeed. I am getting a lot of attention and I am LOVING it. I totally agree with Bob Pure. If I decide to pursue any of the interest being shown in me, it will be a very deliberate act on my part. No pathetic excuses and I will only have myself to blame. This affair has rocked my world - the marriage I thought was inpenetrable and forever can no longer be trusted. I question whether we are supposed to remain monogamous. If A's are so commonplace, maybe we, as a society, have the whole thing wrong.

I think you might analyse and agonise for the rest of your days but the simple truth is perhaps humans are programmed to cheat. Shame.

Anyname, coffee time this week? What day do you leave for Oz?

A very interesting thread. I was reading everyone's posts then I saw my name mentioned. LOL.

What still gets me about my A is that for 47 years (the age I was when I had the A) I have always had very well defined boundaries in all aspects of my life. Ethical at work and in my private life, no lying, stealing, hurting other people of any sort whatsoever.

BUT, also very selfish. I had to push over my ethical boundaries to justify the A. Part of the reason I could do this was that the OM was very well known to me as my HS b/f. (I met him when I was 13 and we went together for 5 years). The personal toll of pushing over my boundaries was immediate and intense health problems.

As to the EN's - my EN's weren't being met in the months immediately prior to the A but this was also my problem and my selfishness.

Jen

KiwiJ,

Is sharing a bit about the obsession aspect agreeable to you?

Noodle

[frelling typos]

<small>[ December 03, 2004, 11:23 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
<strong>... Ethical at work and in my private life, no lying, stealing, hurting other people of any sort whatsoever.

BUT, also very selfish. I had to push over my ethical boundaries to justify the A. ...

...As to the EN's - my EN's weren't being met in the months immediately prior to the A but this was also my problem and my selfishness.

Jen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen,

Once again you bring things to light so that we can understand. 'Pushing the ethical boundaries', is a well describes what so many of us have seen. Many a WS prior to the A often have a solid or so it seems stance by all, even their family members. Yet something snaps and it appears suddenly though not always.

I thank your for your explanation. If you brought this out before, I am sorry I missed it earlier. Truly enlightening.

W/b discussing this thought with H. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Mahalo,
L.

I've deleted all that because it sounded foggy and was inappropriate for this very well thought out thread.

Let's just say I was obsessed.

Jen

<small>[ December 04, 2004, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]</small>

:::::Wow, you lot are very very deep. I moved house last week and have hardly been able to catch up on MB. Strangely, after being practically addicted, I am now reading things and thinking, move on, move on, leave all this crap behind. Time will tell.

Hi TT, well, the idea is to run with that thought - not ignore it. Prolly already too late for you. Back here posting again - it will suck you in again..... deeper, deeper .....

How's the new place anyhoo? R U OK?

:::Word has got out at my workplace that my M is on the rocks and that my WH and I have separated.

I was with our mutual friends last Sat nite or was it the week before? Yeah the week before. I didn't mention knowing you coz I remember you saying no one at work knew.

:::Very interesting indeed. I am getting a lot of attention and I am LOVING it.

Good for you. I imagine your colleagues feel as I do. What a lovely lady, to be treated like this. I'm so glad everyone has been nice. Restores your faith in humanity huh? (well, just a little!)


:::I totally agree with Bob Pure. If I decide to pursue any of the interest being shown in me, it will be a very deliberate act on my part. No pathetic excuses and I will only have myself to blame.

Don't be so modest. You have already been tested recently and passed - with a lot of justifaction to do otherwise.


::::This affair has rocked my world - the marriage I thought was inpenetrable and forever can no longer be trusted. I question whether we are supposed to remain monogamous. If A's are so commonplace, maybe we, as a society, have the whole thing wrong.

I can't help but agreeing. I thought I might write an Idiots Guide to A's. My main advice would be to get in first. I can't help feeling that the WS has the advantage in every way. Even if they are sorry blah, blah, blah, they don't come off second best - and in the interest of self preservation, I would like to suggest to all newly weds that the first one over the A line, gains the upper hand!!!!! One could even argue that it would protect the M - because aren't we always being told that the M can be even better after an A? Best that the responsible S have an A, and manage it in such a way as to preserve the long term health of the M. Rather than leaving it to blind chance and the ignorant S to have an A that they can't control e.g your WH!

Are you with me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

::::I think you might analyse and agonise for the rest of your days but the simple truth is perhaps humans are programmed to cheat. Shame.

No TT, the simple truth is that humans are programmed to procreate. I was in Page One the other day reading Why Men haven't a clue and women need more shoes.... or something like that. Cheating is a result of millions of years of survival of the fittest. It's about the hard wiring to procreate, getting crossed. Cheating is an unfortunate byproduct of our instincts. Cept for you and me and a few others here who are obviously higher up the evolutionary pecking order.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Anyname, coffee time this week? What day do you leave for Oz?

Daughter leaves on Thursday nite. Next week ok? I leave on the 23rd. You only have Thursdays free yeah?

AN