The moment you place validation in the hands of another is the moment you fail yourself.

Like pep eluded to,I am so keenly aware of my values and my beliefs that NO ONE will ever sway me from that path.No one.Never say never? BAH! I am stronger than that.

I have always had this overriding power within me,that I believe to be God,that makes me live in this world a certain way.I rise above the simplistic and obvious problems that many people have or choose to have in their lives and I know that that weakness does not exist for me.I am very clear what it is that I want in this life and I have no time to waste on indecision.

Perhaps this is why I made the decision to file for a D sooner than later.I gave my WH many chances to redeem himself,make things right again,make a choice for discovery and growth,together for us,our marriage and our family.He chose differently so I will continue on my path,the path that is mine and forever will be.Alone or with someone,it matters not.For this path I am on gives me the strength and fulfilment of a thousand relationships failed or otherwise.

O <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

He chose differently so I will continue on my path,the path that is mine and forever will be.Alone or with someone,it matters not.For this path I am on gives me the strength and fulfilment of a thousand relationships failed or otherwise.

Wow O!!!!

I never heard it put quite like that.

Cool! Reminds me of Joan of Arc, or the Queen of Egypt or something.

The way you say it, makes me want to get up and go do something very brave. Love it!

Anyname, the week after next would be great for me too. Hope you've enjoyed your daughter's visit. I am ok but have a dreadful cough at the moment. When I feel a bit lousy physically, my mental wellbeing is not so good. Will be in touch soon. TT

::::I have always had this overriding power within me,that I believe to be God,that makes me live in this world a certain way.I rise above the simplistic and obvious problems that many people have or choose to have in their lives and I know that that weakness does not exist for me.I am very clear what it is that I want in this life and I have no time to waste on indecision.

OG, I am nothing like you. I invented indecision! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> But, there are certain things that I'm extremely clear about. My H always described me as having an over developed sense of justice. I'm VERY into fairness. Oddly enough H also said "life isn't fair" and boy did he go to great lengths to prove it to me.

When Jen was describing her obsession with OM - I identified with her, when I was tempted by the dishy flight attendant. Bearing in mind, I felt fully justified in having a revenge A. (I am not a christian and my long standing belief system allowed me to cheat if my partner cheated first). I did feel very agitated and unsettled about wanting to see him again. HAD my H not cheated, I wouldn't have come within a bull's roar of considering cheating on him. I was only agitated because I felt free to cheat and I felt attracted to the OM. I decided against it because I believed it was tapping into an ugly world that I didn't want to be part of, simply because my H had cheated on me. (oh yeah, did I mention I'm small minded? Overcoming that is more difficult!!!)

To be honest? I don't think I had a lot of self worth and I always knew that if I cheated on my H, my worthiness as a human being would be so minute, in my own estimation, that I didn't think I would recover. I now know, I'm a worthwhile human being - and I now know that I sold myself short. It took my H's cheating to make me realise what a worthwhile person I am. And how lucky my H is to have me. (I had always believed it was the other way around)

I believe the reasons people don't cheat are multi faceted. Some of them are noble (thinking about hurting others) and some of them are selfish (thinking about hurting their themselves and their security) and I don't know whether it's a combination of everything or a particular aspect that stops some people. I do know that everyone CAN cheat.


:::::::::Hope you've enjoyed your daughter's visit. I am ok but have a dreadful cough at the moment. When I feel a bit lousy physically, my mental wellbeing is not so good. Will be in touch soon. TT

TT, I could tell that you were a bit down. Don't apologise for sounding off or being moody about your situation. I am the one person you can grott on and on about it with and I will not begrudge you a single word. The move must have taken a bit out of you? Daughter's visit has been great. So few opportunities to see her. Shopping, shopping, shopping - and she has such good taste and I invariably end up buying things that I normally wouldn't buy.

I look forward to hearing where things are at with you and H!

AN (I will call you next week)

Hi Anyname, I have just had a major bawling my eyes out session. Last night I went out and for about the millionth time had people saying to me, "where's your husband", "I've never even seen your husband etc etc". Now this should reinforce to me how little he has been around for me in the past few years. Everyone in Sai Kung knows me but nobody has a clue who the f**k he is. I have been a single mum for at least 3 years but the reality is just setting in. I have just moved house on my own. I love my new house but it is strange. It's just that my life isn't what I expected. HOWEVER, given my WH's many health issues, my life was always going to be a bit unpredictable. Whatever! But like I said earlier, I have a bad cough which has disturbed my slumber for the past few days. If I don't get my sleep ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> .

I am madly infatuated with a guy at work but he is married. His wife left him last May but she came back. I am obsessed with him. Can't get him out of my mind. But do I want to pursue a married man with 3 kids - I DON'T THINK SO. I just want sex. Plain and simple. I have no doubt he is just as interested in me. Incidentally, our mutual friend does not know of my situation as far as I know and I'd prefer to keep things that way.

Anyname, my simple life before this affair seems so desirable. I feel tangled. Sometimes my life has an air of unexpectancy and excitement that I could never have imagined but other times it all seems a bit strange and risky. I think I prefer simplicity!! Still, I need to be brave and move on. I think I am fine during the week. Mon-Fri I go to work, have a routine and feel quite content. Then the weekend comes, routine gets blown, kids are a nuisance and I feel very frazzled. Does anyone else feel this way. Weekends are meant to be the fun zone. To me they are an ordeal.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The moment you place validation in the hands of another is the moment you fail yourself.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I usually stick to the recovery board but I have found this thread very interesting. I have searched and searched (for two years) for reasons for my H's long affair and the answer is quoted above. Thanks Octobergirl.

OW was a very smart manipulative person and she got control, not only of my H who is a strong person, but me and my daughter too. OW could make us very nice, kind, empathic and strong people feel sorry for her.

And it was not because of any deep, dark, shadow side or childhood abuse or unresolved issues on our parts. It was all about her.

My big part in it was boundaries. I was too giving. One of the first people to post to me was Togetheralone and she said that I had to set boundaries and stick to them.
I thought "What the hell is she talking about? Boundaries?"

At that first post time, the affair had been over for several years with no contact and H & I were really loving each other (as always) so boundaries were not necessary when I started posting but I look way back now to the very beginning of the affair and I can see how I let my needs get stuffed in order to please everyone else and not be the jealous nagging wife.

The big question is why? I suspected. I questioned. I confronted. Why didn't I go with my gut instinct?

One of the reasons is that several friends' marriages were crashing and burning at the time and the husbands left their wives for the other women. My H didn't leave. I could not find any proof that they were meeting secretly or having sex and I was a big snoop. When I raised my suspicions with friends they said "He would never do that. He's crazy about you."
So I believed what I wanted to believe.

Was it low self-esteem that allowed me to negate my feelings? That has haunted me.
Now I have come to the conclusion that it was healthy self-esteem that allowed me to believe H was not having sex with her.

Maybe if I had a really good psych or IC or MC I would have been able to figure this out sooner. Who knows, maybe I'm all wrong! If you think I am I would love to hear your views.
PW

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by pussywillows:
When I raised my suspicions with friends they said "He would never do that. He's crazy about you."
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very similar to my own experience. H was very attentive ... VERY attentive ... especially early in his 18 month A. He'd arrange a limo to pick me up at the airport ... he'd bring me flowers or candy .... he'd call me every day just to say "Hi".

When something went awry and I'd think ... "Hmmmm what is he up to ?" .... I'd think ... "Nothing! He's crazy about me".... and my best friend even wrote my H a letter of admiration stating what a great husband he is .... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Must of killed him to read that !

Pep

weaver,

LOL! I never thought of myself as a Joan of Arc type but knowing her history,I feel we may share a similarity of stength and purpose. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> It is nonetheless,the way in which I live my life and it's always been crystal clear to me,even since I was a toddler.I can still remember when I was 3 or 4 years old and having this "presence" inside me and it was so radiant,like a prism.I still feel that today,I know it's God.Weird huh? I used to have Angels as imaginary palymates back then too. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

AN,

It has always been my belief,that the further away from God we live the more complicated our lives become.In my sig line I say that, "Life isn't complicated,we make it that way", and I believe this.Yes we are all challenged every day through minute things such as a childs temper tantrum to more serious issues like Infidleity.But the serenity? I feel dealing with the every day issues is stil the same and it's because I live a life closer to God and live my life in the way in which I believe God would be proud.Living a life of simplicity and truth isn't so difficult.It is within each and every one of us.And because I live my life this way,any issue that faces me is overcome,learned from and dealt with.

I think not paying *attention to God and what he has in plan for us also helps to look for answers and make decsions that are not in our best interests.When too much importance is placed on those things that are not real or appropriate or healthy or good,we start to fail ourselves.I can't describe really how fulfilled I am just living in the moment,not the past,not the future,here and now.How much MAKING the CHOICE to live a life of simplicity has kept my heart and soul open to the wonders of God.The simplicity(my new word of the day)of home and hearth,love and care.Not expecting as much from the world but expecting more of myself.The way I move through this life in such a way that hopefully encourages other's to do the same.

Look at your post AN and look at how much energy has been expended on the situation that your choices made for you.I am not talking about your WH because we know we can't control the choices of other's,it's how we deal with those challenges ourselves that matters.There's the growth and fulfillment,that you know you can always count on yourself.

It was interesting to me that some statements I used to say many months ago have popped up again.I am not taking credit mind you but I am glad to see the thought reappearing.

We are not our marriages and they do not define us,our actions do.If you place too much importance on a marriage,it becomes you and you are destined to be failed because you are essentially placing your happiness in the hands of another.No one should have this expectation placed on them.People will fail you.People get bored,people have their own challenges to deal with.The best union I see is a union of two whose awareness of lifes limits and of lifes dreams are something to be shared.The experience of being on a path together toward a higher good and a more fulfilling life.Hand in hand,side by side.Not one leading the other,not one expecting of the other.

The right of each and every person to live a life with someone,in marriage or just companionship,of truth,care,love,integrity,dignity and wellbeing is something we should be living with inside ourselves first.If we can give this to another than that to me,is a great basis from which to start a relationship.That to me is the easy part.We can all do this.Most of us have been taught right from wrong have we not? It's almost like a lost art.More and more people today are looking out for themselves,failing to recognize the importance of each other,failing to live up to the standards once held dear to most people.It's one upmanship.Tit for tat.If you can do this to me I can do this to you.Entitlement everywhere.I choose not to live that way.I gave up my desire to hurt the homewrecker.I choose not to follow that path.

I choose not to be swayed from my path of living a life closer to God and what's right.No matter what I am presented with or whomever comes into my life.Therein lies the strength to overcome any obstacle.My choice.Free will,that gift from God that can be used for or against him.

Ok,I've rambled enough. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

O

::::Was it low self-esteem that allowed me to negate my feelings? That has haunted me.
Now I have come to the conclusion that it was healthy self-esteem that allowed me to believe H was not having sex with her.

PW, What was your frame of reference? You had no infidelity experience to guide you.. just a happy, workable relationship, that had gone on and on and on for a very long time, so even though you felt uneasy and suspicious, the natural inclination was to go with the status quo. I know that it would have taken a mountain to fall on me for me to think of unfaithfulness in my H. If I had even considered the possibility, I wouldn't have allowed him to return to Asia, on his own for the most part. I would have made him stay in home country in the cr*appy job he wasn't enjoying.


:::::::::::We are not our marriages and they do not define us,our actions do.If you place too much importance on a marriage,it becomes you and you are destined to be failed because you are essentially placing your happiness in the hands of another.No one should have this expectation placed on them.People will fail you.People get bored,people have their own challenges to deal with.The best union I see is a union of two whose awareness of lifes limits and of lifes dreams are something to be shared.The experience of being on a path together toward a higher good and a more fulfilling life.Hand in hand,side by side.Not one leading the other,not one expecting of the other.

OG, OK, so now after 37 yrs with my H I am explected not to define my life thru him? Because this is definitely what I did. His education, his career, his lovely nature blah, blah, blah required that he was put first, and my role was to support him. I loved it and he loved it. To be honest, I haven't got the energy to have a life of my own now. I wouldn't have a clue where to start. But really, a lot of what you say doesn't gel with me at all. My H wants his life defined thru me - he is desperate for that. He has always wanted that (he keeps saying "he wants his old life back"). We are a couple that do everything together. We do not have separate lives. And it worked very very well for 30 yrs of M - so was it wrong to do that? It was giving him time on his own that lead him to cheat in a most sordid sitaution. It was because we did things seperately that things went wrong.


::::I am madly infatuated with a guy at work but he is married. His wife left him last May but she came back. I am obsessed with him. Can't get him out of my mind. But do I want to pursue a married man with 3 kids - I DON'T THINK SO. I just want sex. Plain and simple. I have no doubt he is just as interested in me. Incidentally, our mutual friend does not know of my situation as far as I know and I'd prefer to keep things that way.

TT, You mentioned this guy before to me. My sympathies are with you. I can only assume that you will make your life more complicated by getting involved with your work colleague. I know you don't intend to, but I'm a tad worried about the obsessive nature of your feelings about him. You're on page 2 of the script. Call me if you get close to losing the plot. Though, I don't think you would be that crazy, you are very hurt and you are very vulnerable. It would be so easy to take solice from this man.

Don't worry, I wouldn't say anything to the friends about you. To do that would mean alluding to my own situation, which they know about, but makes me sick to acknowledge it to them. They saw me throw a tandrum over the belly dancers (just before d-day) - so I've have a bit of dignaty to grasp at in their presence. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Nothing from WH as yet?

AN

The problem with this thread is that many here imply that Dr Harley says that unfulfilled EN are the sole cause of affairs, but if you take the time to read Dr Harley's words, you'll see that this is not the case. Case in point is this excerpt from What Are Plan A And Plan B:


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes [ONE OF THE CAUSES, NOT THE SOLE CAUSE] is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I beleive that it would do all of us some good if we go back and re-read Dr Harley's articles and books, otherwise we end up beleiving something which is simply not true.

TMCM,

I'm not certain why you assume that there is a problem with this thread..I think it's great. I love to hear the opinions and experiences and musings of others with regard to this subject. Something I had been chewing on, and I'm pleased to consider any offered opinion either in agreement or to the contrary.

So what you seem to take issue with, is an over emphasis on ENs implied as Harleys answer to As?

Alright. There is some validity to that. My thoughts were mostly related to the experience and opinions of the board and also my own experiences.. the board attempts to be an offshoot of the MB principles, although an admittedly imperfect one.

My general beef..with ENs and the rest of Harleys *causes* of As..lies specifically in the word *causes*.

No matter how I attempt to twist it around..I just can not accept anything but personal boundary failure as the *cause* of the actual A. I can not find a way to make it pass the sentinal in my brain that says "no one and nothing is/are responsible for another persons actions..nor can they be."

I can accept that unmet ENs could very much cause an unhappy marriage. The wording then would be "I was very unhappy in my marriage. I also had an affair." They are related..but more distantly I suspect than most here are willing to accept. Ditto circumstantial affairs. "I was in the wrong place, with the wrong people, doing the wrong things." OK..but who decided to be in that place, with those people, doing those things?

The thing about boundaries..is that they are so protective..that I am suprised at the sheer strength of resistance to implementing them. It suggests to me that either people do not realize their relative value..or they do not truly wish to change the behavior patterns that have led them here.

More importantly perhaps than boundaries just as they relate to As..is how they relate to everything else. Boundaries seem to be the answer to a lot of questions..including unmet ENs and circumstances and recovery and future improved circumstances.

Allow me to use a model as a descriptive tool.

Say that you have a child who is misbehaving.
You abuse them.
No boundaries have been observed.

Say that the child is misbehaving and you control yourself.
The boundary of what you allow yourself to do has been passively observed.
The child is still misbehaving, the likelyhood that if this behavior continues restraining yourself will become more and more difficult increases..you are in danger of abusing as if you had no restraint.

Say that the child is misbehaving and you do not abuse them [boundary observed] and you discipline them to correct the behavior.
Both boundaries have been enforced. Balance and harmony can now exist as you are neither abusing nor allowing yourself to be abused. Standards have been maintained.

I think it is the failure to enforce one or both of these boundaries that leads to affairs..one that must be crossed in order to have one..one a likely contributor to the circumstances surrounding it. Both are the sole responsibility of the individual.

My model is flawed..as it is a parent child situation..one that obviously a person has a lot more control over..boundary enforcement may end a relationship just as surely as an A if not more surely..but the issues must be corrected regardless if the relationship is to suceed..the A is diminished to a mere manifestation of said issues.

As I have said before..the common factor in any A seems very likely to be boundaries. Since they are the common factor..they are also very likely a very relevant part of the solution. A lot of people fail in the Harley methods [plans a and b] for lack of such. As Lemonman has excellently pointed out..what plan A is and what people call plan A are not the same creature remotely..and those that manage there, are often unable to implement a true and effective plan B..another instance in which you are correct..it is good to be familiar with the material you espouse when going to war <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Since they do not embrace the boundaries in either case..but rather do a modification of what they were going to do anyway [crawl or rage or leave]..I can not but wonder what their own boundaries are looking like..if they are aware of them and what they think about them..and how they value them, and why.

Noodle

Very intereting..

Without rambling on the only challenge I have with Harleys's asserion is the implication of definite cause and effect - ENs unmet, BS behaviour CAUSES an affair.

Like putting a match to gasoline causes a fire.

I was discussing with an arrogantly fog-cound squid soon after d-day and asked " Why have you been ignoring my requests for us to see an MC thi spast year if you knew, as I did, that we were growing apart ?"

She replied " I knew we were growing apart but I chose not to do anything about it. I chose to have the affair FOR ME for once instead".

Fogged, yes, but brutally true IMO.

My cfailure to meet ENs and conflict avoidance CERTAINLY helped cause an unsatisfying M but can anyone tell me how that CERTAINLY CAUSED Squid to have an affair ?
She had HUNDREDS of possible responses to her predicament and only one of them was to take her pants off with this old wastrel and flip the bird to God, me, our kids , HIS kids and our M.

I guess someone can tell me I am trying to remove culpability for the A from myself - I am really NOT so doing - I just don't see how I ( or any BS) caused our WS affair. Only if we drove them to the OMs bed at gunpoint and forced them to knock bones could we CAUSE that single action IMO.

Any thoughts ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TogetherAlone:
<strong> Noodle

An excellent thread, and VERY important to MB newbies. I’m often saddened to see new BS’s being urged by zealots to examine their part in failing to meet ENs. In my view, the EN model works in about 10% of cases that show up here on MB. This leaves an awful lot of cases where no amount of EN-meeting could have averted disaster.

The EN approach seems to suggest that there is a breaking point for every married person, where the level of temptation will outweigh the emotional pluses of the marriage, and infidelity is almost inevitable. This model seems to assume that there are very few defences against temptation except not feeling it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> WTF? From two years on this forum, I am pretty clear that the level of dissatisfaction in a marriage has little bearing on whether a married person is unfaithful or not. (As you say, low EN-meeting = unhappiness, NOT infidelity). Many spouses can put up with miserable circumstances for years, passing up opportunities for ‘relief’ with little effort. Others look for comfort with little obvious provocation.

The EN model assumes that all ENs can be met within the marriage. It doesn’t take into account those ENs (or rather, ‘desires’) which are simply incompatible with marriage. For example:

• the desire to enjoy early-romance intensity;
• the desire to be free of the restrictions of life with children;
• the desire for risk (emotional and /or sexual).


I defy Dr. Harley to fit these into his cosy model. And pushing a BS into meeting ‘needs’ in order to hold a capricious WS in a marriage is positively cruel.

A small matter of semantics – we have to be careful with the word ‘boundaries’. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> As ForeverHers frequently points out, ‘boundaries’ are what we will not tolerate others doing to us. ‘Standards’ are what we will not allow ourselves to do to others. A BS may have high standards, but poor boundaries.

Noodle, I think you’re spot-on in observing that the departure from standards is rarely a sudden thing – it’s often a natural outcome of a life-long tendency to drift outside the barrier if it can be gotten away with. How does this happen?

As an analogy, I imagine a small kid in a sweet shop with his mother. He has no money, and an intense desire for chocolate. While his mother is talking to the shop-keeper, he has an opportunity to pocket a chocolate bar. What would stop him?

1. Fear of his mother’s disappointment and anger
2. Fear of the shop-keeper’s anger and possible legal repercussions
3. Knowing that he does not like having his own possessions stolen, so judging that it would be an unkind act;
4. Understanding that, if everyone stole from the shop, the shop-keeper would go broke, and that the shop-keeper has paid honest money for his merchandise and therefore has a right to get cash for it.
5. Knowing that the chocolate would produce a momentary pleasure that would be far outweighed by the burden on conscience.

I suspect that a lot of WS’s are (or have been) stuck at stages 1 and 2 – being bound mainly by fear of consequences, and being essentially concerned with their own ‘requirement’ for goodies. They rationalise: the shop-keeper probably gets his goods cheap, even stolen; it’s only one little item, hardly worth anything; it’s the shop-keeper’s problem to protect himself from theft – if the kid can get away with it, good for him. Getting from 1 to 5 is a long haul – a journey that we are supposed to have completed in adolescence, but some of us somehow haven’t. Getting the chocolate, and avoiding consequences, seems like a smart thing to do to some people. Understanding the damage to YOURSELF is way, way beyond that kind of child-level conscience.

(Note:I'm not saying that all BS's have reached a virtuous level 5. Sometimes they're stuck at stage 2 too. They're just more scared of consequences. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )

Even more frustrating, I think that those with ‘negotiable’ standards cannot really understand the means by which others control their impulses. It hurts me to see faithful BS’s accused of simply not having enough temptation thrown at them to succumb, or of being smugly comfortable in the marriage. But to someone for whom the primary barrier to self-gratification is the probability of detection and punishment, it must be impossible to understand self-discipline based on compassion and awareness of the damage to self.

For weeks after d-day, my H sneaked around trying to work out if I’d cheated on HIM. He knew that he’d treated me badly for years, and it seemed logical to him that I’d have found solace from the misery. In truth, I’d been seriously tempted. But only for about ten minutes. The thought of alleviating my misery by way of a charming, adulterous man who would lie to his wife and say nice things to me, just seemed ridiculous. I knew that such a relationship would be a series of sugar-rushes followed by sugar-lows. I knew that I would feel deep shame and loathe myself, and this would inevitably affect my children and my marriage. And those things were much too precious to risk for a brief chocolate-high.

Sometimes I wonder how many WS’s stole candy bars as kids?

TA </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">TA:

OMG, I can't believe that I missed this thread. YOu rpost was fantastic. I wish I had 1/10 of the ability to get my thoughs like you on paper. YOUr thread says evrything I wish I oculd say. Thank you for a fine post.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> [QUOTE]Originally posted by weaver:
This is where Lemonman goes awry in his posting. He views the 2nd chance offered to a WS by a BS through the eyes of his own hurtful experience ... and for him, at this point in his life ... he sees no relative value of 2nd chance offerings and he personalizes his opinions to excess.... thereby no WS deserves a 2nd chance. Not just his own.

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">HEY !!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , I Missed this also. INteresting and I can agree with your asessment of me to an extent. For the RECORD, I believe in a second chance...as I myself gave one, but not a third and so on like is so encouraged around here.
AT what ppount do you stop giving "chances"???????????????????

.02

When your actions and your values/standards/beliefs/boundaries are in agreement..I think you will have little regret in your choices even when they are difficult and painful.

That is about the best answer I can give as to when the *chances* stop..if ever any are extended.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
<strong> .....]HEY !!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , I Missed this also. INteresting and I can agree with your asessment of me to an extent. For the RECORD, I believe in a second chance...as I myself gave one, but not a third and so on like is so encouraged around here.
AT what ppount do you stop giving "chances"??????????????????? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">U stop giving chances when your heart and mind agree you have done your best and the WS is still a WS with no Xws or spouse in sight.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,

Does your heart have to agree?

We ask NC of the WS based on what they believe..what they value..not what they feel. Their heart is screaming at them to continue the affair..we say to disregard it.

The heart is fickle..deceitfull even..it wants what it wants and it wants it all the time..how can we ask it to do other than this and make a decision based on fact?

Am I misunderstanding you?

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The problem with this thread is that many here imply that Dr Harley says that unfulfilled EN are the sole cause of affairs, but if you take the time to read Dr Harley's words, you'll see that this is not the case. Case in point is this excerpt from What Are Plan A And Plan B:
quote:
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In these negotiations for total separation, the causes of the affair should be addressed. Since one of these causes [ONE OF THE CAUSES, NOT THE SOLE CAUSE] is usually unfulfilled emotional needs, the betrayed spouse should express a willingness to meet those needs after the affair has ended. Another common cause is a wayward spouse's failure to take the betrayed spouse's feelings into account. The betrayed spouse's inconsiderate behavior sometimes leads the wayward spouse to believe that he or she has the right to return thoughtlessness with thoughtlessness by having an affair. Willingness of the betrayed spouse to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement goes a long way toward resolving the issue of thoughtlessness.

A third possible cause of an affair is a lifestyle where spouses spend much of their leisure time apart from each other, and form leisure-time friendships with those of the opposite sex. A plan to avoid being away from each other overnight and making each other favorite leisure-time companions goes a long way toward creating a passionate marriage that is essentially affair-proof.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with TMCM that this thread is an interesting but ultimately kind of a futile exercise, ie trying to understand what is not understandable. Like cancer, there are a whole lot of factors that 'cause' As, like those listed above. Just the existence of those factors doesn't mean a S will have an A. There is also the 'random' element, the 'societal' element, the 'my friend had an A and his W didn't mind at ll' element, otherwise known as fog or alien abduction...

This might seem depressing for those struggling in the wake of an A, and wanting something more specific to pin the blame on. But I think that in a good recovery, both spouses will know that the particular set of conditions/mindframes/faulty thinking that made their M vulnerable at that moment can never be allowed to repeat, both spouses will be alert and will take steps in future to avert the danger before its too late.

Noodle et al.
Hello there-- I haven' t posted to this thread yet, but I want to say that I although my current M does not have any A going on, the idea of boundaries/standards has been huge with me.
I'm over it now, but can gossip about it all now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
That said, way back when I was cheated on by my LTR of five years and father of my son, I was devastated. I actually got over it pretty quickly in retrospect, maybe because there never was a blame game (becuase he never said it was my fault?). It was always obvious that it was his-- I mean, I knew i was a loving wife and that we got along.
Still my self esteem went into the toilet for other reasons, and I blamed myself somewhat. I doubted my selection in a suitable partner for myself and father for my son in the wake of his affair(s). I lost confidence in my selection abilities and choice making.
My LTR never said it was me. he always said "You don't do anything, You didn't deserve it. I didn't mean to do it". I beleived him. Not because I was a doormat, but you can tell when you're with someone if you make them happy or not.
Certainly, I did things that didn't help-- pressured him about career goals, sometimes worried needlessly and suspciously (after the A), and I had gained weight, and agreed to let him work nights at a place with no supervision (where the OW met him and they talked on a regular basis). But geeze, I never said I was perfect!
Sometimes I think I wanted to take the blame, to beleive that I had some control all along. Cuase control can be comforting when you live witih a lose cannon. But that would have been a lie. My LTR was an open and funloving man. When we finally ended, it was over an EA that I coldn't tolerate because we had been through OW syndrome before and redbuilding the trust was a B*TCH, and I didn't like being an "enforcer" in the relationship, checking up on him all the time, asking him where he was, etc. Wondering if when he was late was it because of an OW?
Looking back, I think I over reacted to the EA, but they were at the point of saying "I love you" to each other, and I wanted to MOVE ON with things, not delve into another saving of our relatinoship. We weren't even married, but only engaged. For 5 years, and the whole time, I was waiting for things to feel good enough that M would only foster more happiness. I suppose not being married and loking at his track record made it easier to walk away from too-- I had no hope that he'd get boundaries just because we were married. I mean being enganged, living together and rearing our son M was enough For me to be committed.
I concluded after that that I'd not be with a cheater again. Not because it felt evil or any other reason than because a man who would cheat, who would have that character flaw to think it's OK, or that it's not OK but to do it anyway, or to do it becuase he's not happy in the M-- well, I don't have the TIME for it. I don't have the energy to mess around. I mean, it's hard to have a committed loving relatinship with your S is capricious wtih emotions. In the long run, what affairs boil down to in my mind is immaturity and irresponsibility: To self, towards loved ones, to honor and loyalty.
Committment is commitment.
His affair was between two either immature or unhappy people, who end up unhappier. The OW in the EA was formerly suicidal, and had been someone I knew. I spoke to her on the phone and she cried, "But he's not happy with you." and I said "You know what, I'm a pretty with it person, and I can't make him happy. He's not happy. Period. You can have him. Best of luck." I was done, and it was over. But I couldn't be the one to break up-- I wasn't going to tell my son years later that I kicked his dad out and have him blame me for the end of our relationship. I told him it was time to be a man an set me free.
It was beautiful, really. I was sad for my son, sad for me because I loved him, but I knew it had to be over. I didn't have another recovery in me.
And when I became on the market (soon afterward really) there were married men who would hit on me occassionaly, but I could never cheat with a married man-- not out of respect for M, or for his W, or because it breeds bad karma, but because I don't value irresponsibility. It's just not attractive. It's not in my definition of a "man" I guess.
BUt my current H has also been cheated on. So, I did good, at least as far as that goes. Neither of us want to go there. It's our standard for ourselves and respect for M. We're responsible that way.
We have many other problems with boundaries, so MB hasn't really helped me with much other than to give me some possible and plausible directios to chew on, and a place to vent/sort things out and get feedback (which is golden). The EN stuff is something I have felt I'm good at with my H, and he's good at with me.
Mostly, I think Harley's formula for saving a M after an A is because of the devastation after one hears they have been betrayed. Emotions run a million miles an hour and the betrayed wants to latch on to something, anything that gives them blessed hope.
Hope to hold onto what?
If they really thought long and hard about it, wouldn't they want someone with standards like their own? If they know they will never cheat, can't their spouse?

Well, the thing is that I know for myself that one strike and it's through. Even if it was a caught in the moment thing for someone who is generally more repsonsible. I dont think I'd like being proactively suspicous again. It was Ok, and somewhat something I could control, but I thought of it like You wrong me once, shame on you. You wrong me twice, shame on me.
That said, I do beleive affairs can be overcome. We were well on our way in my first LTR, and really had a nice relationship. But he knew my boundaries, and it didn't help. He STILL did it again.
Knowing my boundaries DID help in that the last time, he came and told me straight away about the EA coming to the ILY point, rather than let me suspect or go crazy feeling like something wasn't right.
The end was quick, and we were friends soon afterwards, and he really regretted being so dumb. it (the affairs) was plainly something we both referred to as "just dumb".
Thanks for the intriguing thread.
Question: Have you heard something about a big indicator of probable success for a M is based on the mutual agreement on comunication --how much to share and when? I'm thinking now that what that means by communication is communicating needs, which can also be transcribed into the language of boundaries and standards.
LC

[B]When your actions and your values/standards/beliefs/boundaries are in agreement.. [B]I think you will have little regret in your choices even when they are difficult and painful.

Right on Noodle.

And regarding Orchids' statement about the head AND heart being in sync -

Knowing that the decision is correct is one thing but being able to choose it is a heck of a lot easier when the heart agrees also.

However for me, by the time I got to the place of Noodle's statement above (I mean really, really got it), my heart was in perfect sync. Maybe that is the connection to getting the heart in a place to where you can make a choice-

"When your actions and your values/standards/beliefs/boundaries are in agreement.." you heart will be in sync as well. (if only <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )


OT: Cymanca said on another thread that this thread is the most "cerebral" thread he had ever read in his 6 months at MB. Laughed out loud when I read that CY! How totally true, can't believe I'm even reading it, let alone responding to it. Ah well, sometimes it's good to stretch the ole muscle upstairs, eh?

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 05:21 AM: Message edited by: weaver ]</small>