MS,

Come here, closer to the screen, now hold your head real still..... WHAP!!!! Did you feel that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Now stop inflicting pain on yourself by talking to the WS. She isn't about to agree with anything you say even if it would save her life or make her a bunch of $$. Why? Not because you don't have something good to say but just because it is U saying it.

So every time you try to help, it ends up backfiring on you.

I hate to see you in continual pain. You make yourself a target and even in the fog, the BS who attempts communication with the WS during these kinds of times is asking t/b hit. At least that's the WS interpretation.

....and they will apologize as they are slapping you in your face and then continue apologizing afterward. But they will repeat it all over again. So why put yourself in that sitch?

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mschluter:
<strong> Well I took your advice GC and started a Journal today..

Microsoft has a pc Journal that I have been typing in. I feel wierd writing in it, but i'm sure I will better understand things as the weeks go on.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Mschluter -

I just started keeping a diary a few days ago....it has been very therapeutic for mee, too. There is something about writing your feelings out on paper (or in my case typing on the computer), that helps soothe and calm you. I also write out my prayers as I pray them, seems to make them more concrete or something. I am not familiar with the Microsoft diary program, but I found a freeware program called Diary Defender on Download.com. You might want to check it out and see how it compares to the MS one.....

TM

Update:

Well Ok here come the 2x4's because last night everything I worked so hard for I threw out the window because of one very simple lie that the ww had told me. All of her honesty and she found it so easy to lie to me over something so trivial as to where the OM worked at. Through some of her own answers I got the impression she had met him at his job a couple times. I approached her with an open heart last night and asked her where the OM worked at. She told me I already know, I asked her several more time and then she told me the name of the company. Of course she was lying because through my Budy who is a PI.

I told her she was not being honest and all I wanted from her was the truth and thats it, she told me it was none of my business where he worked at and that she did not have to tell me everything. I told her that if she really wanted trust then she had to be 100% honest and to have no secrets.

well boy did dhe get mad and I must admit for the first time in 7 months I blew a gasket, not sure if it was because of all of the pent up hurt or anger or just one of those things that I just had enough... Either way we argued and LB'ed almost all night, she cried, cried and cried...I was so mad over this simple little lie and I felt like it was not even that important of a thing, but I had to hear it from her where he worked at so I knew she was telling me the truth.

Well we LB'ed even more and finally at 5:30 am she and I calmed down enough to where I told her that because of this lie that she has truly destroyed what Love I had for her and that I felt it was in the best interest of me and her that she moved out to her mom's (2 hours away) I told her I know longer respected her as a wife and that I could not live like this anymore, I told her that she killed the one thing I cherrished more then anything and that was the love I had for her. I told her I did not want to see or talk to her ever again and that through her sister we could communicate about the children. To me this one little lie pulled me and her into an instanst plan B and I was not going to back down. She cried and told me she was sorry for all the nasty things she said to me and I of course told her that I was sorry as well. I told her that I wished her well and that I let my emotions get the better of me and that even that was no excuse to lower myself down to the level on name calling and belittling someone. I told her if killing my love for her was her goal then she won the game. She told me it really was over between her and OM and that she would send a NC letter to make me and her feel better and that she is on 18 days of NC and that I need to trust her.

I told her trust is born from honesty and you have to understand that honesty is not something you pick and choose it has to be all or none not just partial. I tol;d her I could understand it would take her time to open up with some of the bigger lies and that I have been very patient with that stuff but to lok at me and lie about something as small as where this OM worked at really killed me.

Finally around 6:00 am she approached me still crying and told me where he worked at. we went to bed and at some point she initiated SF which really surprised me. Today she is walking around the house in a total fog because I told her I still need her to move out. She told me to please give her a chance and that she is doing so good on the nc and that she will start being 100% honest and she will have no more secrets.

Here is my question do I stay with Plan A and pick up the pieces of LB's dropped and move on or do I stick with plan B and have her move out?

I know I messed up and I feel I might be able to recover from last night and that it may take a couple day's. I told her I need my space to think on this and that I would let her know by 4:00 pm today

Thats a tough one, sounds to me like she feels shes the one who messed up, while you feel you messed up. I wasnt there to hear it in her voice or see it in her eyes, you have to make that decision. Sounds like you both backslid together.

At this point after all that....One more chance wouldn't hurt. If she finally gets it then all the better, if more of the same old stuff--its on her and at least you gave that one last try!! Just my opinion.

You've been through too much to give up now. Ask her to write a no contact letter to OM. Then start in recovery.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mschluter:
<strong> Update: ....I told her trust is born from honesty and you have to understand that honesty is not something you pick and choose it has to be all or none not just partial. I tol;d her I could understand it would take her time to open up with some of the bigger lies and that I have been very patient with that stuff but to lok at me and lie about something as small as where this OM worked at really killed me.

Finally around 6:00 am she approached me still crying and told me where he worked at. we went to bed and at some point she initiated SF which really surprised me. Today she is walking around the house in a total fog because I told her I still need her to move out. She told me to please give her a chance and that she is doing so good on the nc and that she will start being 100% honest and she will have no more secrets.

Here is my question do I stay with Plan A and pick up the pieces of LB's dropped and move on or do I stick with plan B and have her move out?

I know I messed up and I feel I might be able to recover from last night and that it may take a couple day's. I told her I need my space to think on this and that I would let her know by 4:00 pm today </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Michael,

Excellent. You did fine. No 2x4, just a big MB hug (well little hug, I'm not that tall - <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).

What you said both as quoted above and the rest of your post is right on spot. She now sees what she not may lose but is losing. She has to earn your trust not visa versa.

You socked a good one right through that fog and able to bring her to her senses. She may still swing back and forth with the withdrawal but your stance helps her see that you are not playing games.

So to your question, plan A or B. Let's see if we can bring JL, WAT, Ark, Pep and others....let's see what they have to say. I have my own opinion but it w/b good to get other's insight.

Just wanted to tell you that I think you did a good job.

L.

Michael,

I can't remember where or what thread I read it on, but if memory serves I believe that once in Recovery the BS has the power to control the M. At the point where the WS is out of her fog (even just for a few moments a day) where she knows what she will miss out on in the BS and what she will lose. That is where the BS is empowered. Now don't let this go to your head, but as it stands now. After you laid down the "law" last night and she came back and told the truth. That should be evidenence in that she knows how strong you are and what she will lose!

I also agree with Orchid in that you did the right thing. You set your boundaries and let it be known that you would not tolerate lies. That is neither wrong or inappropriate. That is commendable.

I have hope for you, it sounds like your on your way to a good M. Of course there will most likely be bumps down the road.

Best of luck, Native

Yay, Michael! You set your boundaries. Wonderful! You let her know in no uncertain terms that you will not put up w/her BS any more. That you are not a doormat that she can continue to walk all over w/o consequences.

Personally, IMVHO, I think you shouldn't plan B right yet. I have to echo the others in saying that it seems as if your W saw what needed to be seen. If she meant what she said about sending a NC letter to the OM, then let her.

What really impressed me was this statement -
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She cried and told me she was sorry for all the nasty things she said to me and I of course told her that I was sorry as well. I told her that I wished her well and that I let my emotions get the better of me and that even that was no excuse to lower myself down to the level on name calling and belittling someone. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You really are growing. Recognizing when YOU behave badly. I am very proud of you. Keep up the good work.

Love in Christ,
Y

I feel I should and could have done better if I could learn how lay down these boundries without the LB's...

She is starting to get in a bad mood and I think she is trying to take back that control she has had in the past.

Ok. It looks like I set a great boundry and I am not going to back down from it. The ww now knows that the love I had for her is starting to dwindle and I think that really made her nervous. I think she was starting to think that the Love I had for her was strong enough that she could use it for her benefit.

Well I will not tolerate any more lies of any kind. I will be firm but I will not use LB's or name calling like the night before. I need to rise above that stuff. I love my wife and would love to save my M but I can't do it alone at least not in the long term.

Tonight she wants to put the kids to bed early and have some adult time. I really do think it scared her to think she was getting the boot and that I was done with her and this M until she grew up and started to commit to at least the truth.

She reminded me five times today that she has been really good and that she has gone 18 days with nc. And she told me that she was sorry and that she just should have told me the truth and been done with it. She felt that it was not worth the hassle .

I don't know if it's losing me that scares her or being homeless, she does not like the idea of losing her job and moving out to mom's two hours away.

I started my journal today and it felt good to write in it. I will do my best to keep it updated daily or even hourly until I get all of this hurt out of my system.

Here is my question do I stay with Plan A and pick up the pieces of LB's dropped and move on or do I stick with plan B and have her move out?

Depends on what you want.

Plans A, and B, are plans to end the affair, and lead you to where you can start recovery.

If you want to Divorce her, then you have her move out. It's not plan b, because plan B is the plan that follows a good plan A, and it's intent is to end an Affair.

It sounds like her A is mostly over. Notice I said
"Sounds like."

It's going to take some time before you will know.

If you still want to save your marriage, you go back to plan A. Remember, a good plan A is necessary for plan B to work, and both of them are used to end an affair. Once you are sure the affair is over, and she is through withdrawl far enough and wants to work on the marriage, you change the plan to a recovery plan.

The recovery plan is where you both agree to live things like the POJA, spend time together, and meet each others needs. It's where you explore the rules for successful marriages, and find ways to live them.

You can run plans A, and or B by your self, but you can only do a recovery plan with your wife - that's why you wait until she is through withdrawl, and ready to commit. I take it you still have until June to help her get to that point.

Now, what do you want? Like we said, you can quit if you want, we are here to help if you want to recover your marriage.

So, let us know what you are wanting to do. Meanwhile, keep reading the materials on this web site, and do SAA again if you still have it. I had to read HNHN and LB'S over and over before I really got it down well.

Remember, our aim is to help you. Both of you. Everyone makes mistakes, it's what we do about them that makes us into successes, or failures.

SS

I want to save my M....

And I want you all to help me..

You are right to set boundries. It's just that you need to know what you are going to do if they are broken.

Often people fall off the wagon. That is, they break the boundaries at least once, but over time they begin to get it, and finally they do recover.

When someone does something wrong, they usually have consenquences. Here is a link to a good post about that.

Mthrrhbard on Plan A and natural consequences

The hard part is fitting it all together. How do you know how far to do, how tough to be, when to forgive, when to hold the line.

It's going to take some practice. There will be errors ON BOTH SIDES.

I have a pretty full day tomorrow, but will try to check in and see how you are doing.

SS

PS, here's something on Trust too - maybe you can explain this to your W.

Takola on trust

<small>[ December 11, 2004, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: still seeking ]</small>

SChlucter:

Just checking in to give you some support. I had a bad day also (ALL DAY IN THE OR) and am here bone tired. I am probably gonna have to pop an ambien to kink out (I am so tired I can't sleep). Hang in there. I think you did awesome last night. I say this once again to all: WHAT GOOD ARE SAYING YOU HAVE "BOUNDAIRES" IF YOU DON'T ENFORCE THEM. THIS IS THE PROBLEM WITH 98% OF THE PEOPLE HERE WITH "THEIR" BOUNDARIES".

Lemonman,
You make a really good point.

In our legal system, we have many different infractions, and different levels of punishment for them.

If you get pulled over for speeding, they may give you a warning if your record is clean.

If you kill someone, you don't get a warning.

So, when a person sets boundaries, they can't possibly list all the possible ways someone can cross them, and what the reaction will be. (Well, they could, but that's not my idea of a life.)

So, where does a lie come in the scale - and what should be done about it. Also consider the state of mind of his wife. Is she doing this on purpose, or as a result of the chemical changes in her brain that took place during the A. I mean, is there any insanity plea here?

Is there any way we can know for sure?

If we error, should it be on the side of firmness, or kindness?

Lemonman, I have seen some of your comments before, but I don't know what you are thinking right now. Would be interrested in hearing your thoughts.

SS

I agree with the guys, Michael, mostly. LM, in defense of BS who do not end their marriages immediately, I can tell you that I had my own boundaries during plan A, and I was successful at establishing and enforcing them.

You will not accept your wife lying to you. That's good. You shouldn't. I do think you should give her a second chance, but... I suggest you come to an agreement about honesty with her. If she feels she can't answer a question you have truthfully, then postponing her answer is better than telling a lie.

And naturally, you have to be prepared to enforce your boundary for real, and to know what that means.

Speaking of deception...

How is she going to deal with finding out about your PI friend?

She will eventually have to know about him if you recover your M.

Okay, back to the "what is plan B" question. Kicking your W out and saying that's it, we're done - don't call that plan B. That's ending the relationship. Plan B is different. I'm not especially confident in its effectiveness for my own situation, but it is not the same thing.

Michael, I think you should stop worrying about this June '05 business right now. She doesn't want to end the marriage. She just doesn't feel confident about fixing it yet.

GC

Graycloud said:
Michael, I think you should stop worrying about this June '05 business right now. She doesn't want to end the marriage. She just doesn't feel confident about fixing it yet.

I think this is accurate. I use it as a reference because Michael needs a goal too. The signs point to her wanting to fix it, but not being ready.

Withdrawl.

Some of the earlier experts (that were here when I got here) have said that withdrawl can last as long as the A.

How long was the A?

SS

GC asked:

How is she going to deal with finding out about your PI friend?

Well to be honest She already found out because of the one tape she found me listening to that had about 90 minutes of conversation between her and the Om. Yes she was very mad but she understood why I had to do it. Now I have gone so far as to have all the taps removed except the ones on OM's phones.


Michael, I think you should stop worrying about this June '05 business right now. She doesn't want to end the marriage. She just doesn't feel confident about fixing it yet.

I think the only reason I was really worried is because she has not made any commitment to saving the M yet. I feel great that she is now on 18 day's of nc but I also am smart enough to know that her reason's for nc are because of cps


Still Seeking asked:

How long was the A?

The first A with ( same OM ) was only a month long and that was 10 yrs ago

Second A was from May 04 until 18 days ago (roughly 6 months)


Well it's 1:13 am here in upstate NY and my ww and I just finished talking about what I expect from her if she wants to at least remain in the house. I told her that all I want from her at this time is respect ( no lies, no secrets ) I agree with you that if she can't answer truthfully then tell me so and I will give her time to think about it. I told her that she has really given my soul a beaten these past 6 months and after last night she killed all but a few drops of love I still have for her. I told her I will not tolerate any more untruth's, it's not fair to me and it's not fair to the children. I told her if she wants to move to her mom's then I am more then ok with this because it will be her choice at this time. I told her that I deserve respect from her because I am a human being and I will gladly show her respect in return. I told her I'm tired of the fighting over such small things as where the OM works at. Honesty is not an option at this time for me in Plan A


I don't know what she will do but I gave her a few things to think about. I told her I understand that she does not love me and now I have very little Love for her, She told me that she may leave to live with her MOM, I told her thats ok just make the child support check out to Michael Schluter every Friday and have her sister bring it to me.

I realize I can't control what she decides but I can at least try to restore some kind of order back into my home for the children. They deserve it.

I made it very clear that if she decides to stay, and show me that respect i'm asking for I will gladly continue to stand by her side until she breaks that boundry again.

I know it hurt her deeply when tonight we were making love and I just stopped right in the middle and told her I just could not do this, it did not feel right. I told her that what love I do have for her because of her lies has gone down so far that I know longer feel comfy making love to her. She looked liked someone poked her in the eye with a sharpy.... She could not believe that I could sit there and tell her that the love I once had for her was almost gone because of the beaten she has been given my soul over the past couple months. She went to bed with a heavy heart. She asked me if it was ok if I would at least give her a kiss, and I did.

I told her that if my loving her still holds any meaning that she needs to start reaching out to me now, I told her I do not deserve this pain. I am more then willing to go the extra mile to make any chnages to myself that were pre A and may have caused her to cross the line, But I will not have her A destroy the Love I once cherished for her.

Still seeking? I want to thank you for breaking down Plan A and Plan B for me, I was always a little confused on when recovery started. I figure if she does decide to stay then recovery wont start till at least May 1st 2005 and that will only be if she has had Nc with OM and she has been honest and if she wants the M at that point.

I will continue to Plan A... I think I will alter Plan A to be A lot more about me and a lot less about her. I set the line in the sand and I refuse to budge on it for the purpose that eventually the line is moved back to where I am in the corner with no way out.

I have painted myself into a corner before ( don't ask ) and the hours it takes to get out is not worth it.

Anyone.....