It is a cold rainy day on the left coast and it gives me an opportunity to get input on a phenomena that I personally experienced, albeit not recently. The following is a self quote from another thread that I posted to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will know when a true positive sign occurs because it usually is accompanied by the BS suddenly questioning whether THEY want to stay in the M. Don't know exactly the reason for this reaction, but I suspect the BS has a moment of clarity and appreciation for how truly two-sided the decision must be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I feel that the BS in this scenario , once the pressure of saving the M is somewhat lifted, gets a glimpse of the forest and not just the R tree. The BS is then forced to really examine the COMPLETE picture of what saving an M encompasses, especially the cruel acts perpetrated by the WS in a cold,rational and somewhat dispassionate light.


Have you as the BS gone through these momentary fog parting episodes? Did you suddenly find that that WS not as appealing as when you felt there was no hope?

I would really like to hear from BS's in this manner, hopefully so that I can convince myself that the issue is much more complex than just the salvation of my WS.

I had that same revaltion not more then two days' ago. I felt like there was no point, even after she has gone 12 day's with nc and has been honest.

Hello Cy,

It's a cold day here too on the Eastern seaboard and it looks like snow will arrive any minute.I hope to have a white Christmas this year.

Personally,I don't think there is a comparison between deciding for the marriage from a WS and a BS point of view.For in one there is honor,truth,committment and care.In the other(WS) there is guilt(possible),possesion,selfishness and duplicity.A WS deciding whether or not to stay in the marriage is a far cry from the reasons a BS desires to stay.

After being here more than a year,it seems to me that family,marriage and children are not high on the priority list of "WS Reasons to Stay".Hot chandelier swinging porno sex,lying,sneaking,scheming,plotting,cake eating and selfishness are.Sorry,that was harsh but that's how I see it.

If you take a look at the thread that noodle posted: Good Fences,I have posted a few times of just how I view boundaries and how it's usually the BS that has upheld them when it comes to our marriages.Not entirely but usually.

I never felt pressured into saving my marriage.It was important that I try.I cared that much about it and my family and to whatever depths my WH could drag us down into,I would still try.But not alone and not forever.

Michael,

I am glad to see you are still with us.We were all very worried about you.

O

Sure, I have those days. Having one of them right now. She has gone 16 days NC, can't show me an ounce of affection and is pissed off at me because I went to church today.

I do love her, though, and the answer to whether I really want to still be married is yes. It's just all part of the process I suppose. If you don't get really genuinely angry about what has been done to you and feel like you are bending over backwards for someone who could give two sh*ts about you, I think you are making a mistake. If you bury that crap, it will come back to haunt you later.

10girl,

Nice to hear from you. I have not been on MB forums very much lately, have been trying to get the family up to speed with my mom's terminal illness.

I have read the Fences thread.Absolutely the most cerebral thread that I have seen in my 6 months on MB forums. So good and erudite, I felt that in my state of mind that I had nothing to offer other than at a level of a grade school graduate <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I am not looking for a comparison between BS/WS as much as a viewpoint of the BS when a significant WS breakthrough is achieved. I know the almost euphoric feeling was usually accompanied by my feelings of "Do I want her back with what she has shown me during our M, let alone what has happened during this self debasing A"?

I hope and pray for everyone here at MB and I have been following your posts.It appears that we have reached the same inevitable conclusions on our M's.

<small>[ December 05, 2004, 12:51 PM: Message edited by: Cymanca ]</small>

Hmmm.

I guess I am unclear as to what precisely you are asking.

Do you suggest that when a WS has an "epiphany" of sorts such as,"I may lose everything,I better try to make my marriage work" you as a BS may be thinking,do I really want this person back after all he/he has done to me?

For me,I knew that however bad things had become between my WH and I,if he truly knew he made a major bad decision,was remorseful and worked his butt off to improve his side of the marriage,then I would do my best as well.I always knew that I would give my WH the chance to make things better since I would want the same coutesy from him if I made such a mistake(not that that would ever happen in reality,just hypothetically).

There have been a few times where I felt that he wasn't worth my time and effort.Now that is what I live by.As each and every hour,week,month continued to go by,the chance for a reconciliation dwindled to where his choice to put everything and anything else above ME was the last straw.Now there is nothing left to work with.Not even an ember.That's why I mention how important it is for a WS to make a decision for the marriage quickly or risk losing it all forever.Time is of the essence and as a BS,they do not have the luxury of letting the A go on and on to suit their needs.They will lose us as is the case with me.

You should come over to noodles thread and partake of such greatness.LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And I am sorry about your mom's illness.I am sure that she is blessed though to have such a loving son as her advocate during this most difficult time.

O

Cy, my initial desparation to stop the affair and do almost anything to retrieve my 'old' life was tangible.

However after a firm Plan A, a post-withdrawal phase FWW and ME grown STRONG and more independent than in years I looked around and didn;t like everything i saw.

I realised that I no longer NEEDED my FWW: I wouldn't do anything to keep her.And that some of her post- and PRE-A behaviour was unnaceptable to me.

I played with that new sensation of power for a few days, but deep down I realised i wanted my FWW back in the centre part of my life but WITHOUT the behaviours that led to our M becoming unsatisfying for both of us.

Soon after wards my FWW noticed my independence and was very fearful I might kick her out.

Cy I wouldn't worry, Its a sign that the power hand has come to you. WS control the Affair but BS control recover. What you feel is the transfer of the whip hand. What you do with it is a decision that should be made carefully.

I am not certain that my Squid and I will remain together - not yet - she (and possibly I) still have a lot of changing to do, but since I got teh whip hand its my ecision pretty much now. MY boundaries.

Another big responsibility !

All blessings.

Bob,

You have grasped and answered my question perfectly. I would like to get a few more opinions with a possible subset of breaking down the BS' s feelings by gender. I believe that the dynamics of a male BS and a female BS are largely similar but with some very pronounced differences.

Thanks for your input Bob. How are things across the pond this holiday season?

BTW Your ability of giving a name to your spouse (As well as GC's sparrow) on this forum has always made your story much easier to relate to on a non-cyberspace level.

Cy,

When my wife came home, my one condition was no contact. All the contact had to end. I have tried fervently to not check up on her very much. I still look for things occasionally, but, for the most part, she is on her own. I am trying hard to trust she is being true to me. This is still at one year.

When she came home, she tried to make it on her conditions, everything, even 2 months later...we had a talk about sex. We were having it, but she wanted it on her terms...I yielded to that, because her reason was somewhat sound...the problem with those type of convos, is that the fws does not stay true to a conversation and then have a follow up convo, generally, releasing the fbs (hehe, formerly betrayed spouse) from those commitments. So for now, I find myself stuck even approaching my wife for sex. Usually, it gets to the point where I get frustrated at it all, and have sex to fulfill the need, and then following it, am down due to it was a forced act. These are the boundary types specifically that the fbs needs to feel comfortable in stating their grounds on.

Right now, I feel the marriage is equally in each of our hands. I still feel the evil at times, saying I could leave, but I quickly counter it with that it wouldn't solve anything. That is usually all it takes. I don't have the love for my wife as I did in my adolesence, that is for sure...right now, it is still extremely tainted, as so, marriage is still a choice. I suspect it will always be a choice. I do feel like I'm doing more to save the marriage, but, I'm not her...she may feel the same.

Anyways, following a ws coming home, it is about 2 months or so til the bs has authority in the relationship...then, we find the times becoming a real challenge...but it relents a bit. It all really comes down to how much you dwell in the negative, to how long those down times linger.

I agree with Bob. Once the dust clears from all the cheating and fighting, and recovery seems to be underway, one day the BS will find him/herself looking at FWS and wondering if this is what they really want.

After all, this is a person who spent months -- if not years -- ignoring you, lying to you, and spending their available time with someone else. And this behavior made then HAPPY. They thought it was GREAT. And if you had not thrown one hell of a monkey wrench into the machinery, THEY'D STILL BE DOING IT.

It's frightening to think that this is the sort of person they really are. How can you even think of trusting yourself to them again?

That's now the question the BS wakes up with every morning.
Mulan

Cy

How are things across the pond this holiday season?



Things are better than I dreamed they would be a few months ago mate. We're friends, having far more good days than bad and looking forward to our christmas holiday in Florida.

Its our 'virtual' Christmas day next Saturday when our friends and relative vistit and the Kids get their gifts !

Its been an intense could of weeks fom a R discussion perspective and I think a bit if a hiatus won't hurt, where we get to enjoy where we've arrived at so far for a week or two.
But we're OK !, thanks !


BTW " Squid" comes from the first time I asked my Baby her family name when we were at college. She had a heavy cold and replied " Its Quinn".

It sounded like " Id Squid" and we laughed. ! She's been my Squid ever since <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

O said: Personally,I don't think there is a comparison between deciding for the marriage from a WS and a BS point of view.For in one there is honor,truth,committment and care.In the other(WS) there is guilt(possible),possesion,selfishness and duplicity.A WS deciding whether or not to stay in the marriage is a far cry from the reasons a BS desires to stay.

I find myself having more and more of those feelings as I go on, however I'm not even in recovery.

Bob: I realised that I no longer NEEDED my FWW:

I'm also coming to that realization. I am still doing the Plan A, but lately have started thinking that I'm going to be alright no matter what happens. Course then I have a down day right after <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have you as the BS gone through these momentary fog parting episodes? Did you suddenly find that that WS not as appealing as when you felt there was no hope?

Yes, absolutely! With my DD's dad 10 years ago. When he came out of the fog and wanted to be a family again, I decided no way.

However, I might choose differently knowing what I know now about being a single mom.

People who don't have children?, I can't imagine what keeps them with their WS after all is said and done.

Harley himself says that the BS is a way bigger threat to the marriage than the WS. Understandably so in my opinion.

I was never apart of cake-eating as I have a tendency to lose it and go directly into personal NC when I catch someone cheating on me. But what I have read on here about WS saying and doing the most cruel things to their BS, it is just mind blowing. Read on someones thread that the WS told his BS that she wasn't any good in bed and the OP was. Crap like that makes me wonder how anyone survives this stuff.

I think the BS fights so hard to hang on to WS as part of self preservation. A way of not totally being destroyed, and this makes sense if you have been through it. But once the BS gets it together and finds their center and their strength and the WS has a moment of clarity, they would have to be nuts to not examine whether they really want this person who ripped their heart out and stomped it into a thousand pieces before leaving them for dead. Don't you think?

Weaver,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Harley himself says that the BS is a way bigger threat to the marriage than the WS. Understandably so in my opinion </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could you expound on what you know of Dr Harley's statement?

I think that a great contributor here, is that most people like to make decisions from a position of relative strength.

If a person has lost a spouse to an A they are not really making a choice..they are the recipient of one.

Attempting to end/halt an A is very like attempting a stoploss. Whatever it is..whatever it is worth..you don't want someone or something to TAKE it from you against your will. This is a scary weak helpless feeling.
When a person begins to gain some ground..their sense of personal power returns..and as such..they begin to re-evaluate the person they are struggling to maintain. Is this person/situation good enough for me ? Do I want to put in the work to rebuild with this obviously flawed material? Is the cost/benefit ratio something I wish to embrace?

I'm pretty sure that it isn't so..stark..in the minds of most. But I'll bet that whittled down, that's about what you get.

The answers are as varied as the individuals, determined by what they value, and where their standards fall.

Noodle

<small>[ December 06, 2004, 12:05 AM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> I think that a great contributor here, is that most people like to make decisions from a position of relative strength. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is a very good point. I see it in myself. I've been feeling for a few months that I really don't know that I really want Dork back. I go back and forth and feel such indifference to him right now...EXCEPT when I think about him with OW.

I HATE HATE HATE to lose. Now, logically, I'm the loser if I end up with him as he is. BUT, I want to be the one to kick him to the curb because he deserves it for having and continuing the A.

I can't stand the thought of walking away without him begging me not to.

That is the very small, vengeful, ugly part of me. It's there though...and has a lot to do with why I'm where I am right now.

Reading that right now, WOW, that's not such a pretty admission. I'm going to really have to look at that part of myself. Hmmmm. More to think about tonight.

Harley himself says that the BS is a way bigger threat to the marriage than the WS. Understandably so in my opinion

Because of the love the BS loses for the WS. I believe I read this in reference to Plan A/B, ie.,
the BS not going to Plan B soon enough to protect whatever love they have left for the WS.

Also I read that once in receovery the BS often does not have enough love left to make it through.

Cymanca & All here. This is exactly what happened.

around the 18 month mark we were back to the stable life of being, content(iffy), arguments over normal stuff, plans coming together.

Ktulu starts in my mind questioning everything that has happened. Can I truly live with the knowledge that this man has the capacity to destroy me as a person & not offer me the kind of response I need when I'm feeling down.

Slowly over the weeks, I let go of the positive & lose sight of the end result, the man is here & loving me, I started to see myself as settlement material.

My husband sensed the shift.

He accussed me of being non- committed.

He was right, I didn't know it & denied it.

I claim to want this marriage to him.

What I really wanted was to be free of the pain & to be happy again in love with him.

With each passing deflection of my feelings I sank lower in the pit of misery & pity.

Husband could not reach me, in my heart I felt he just didn't want to, in rationality he probably didn't know how, in reality I didn't see the loving caring actions I wanted. Yet he was committed to our marriage,& was willing to "sacrifice his happiness to be here". That stung like a kick in my already broken but healing heart.

I forgot that he would feel insecure too. That he wanted to hear I loved him too. I went on a major bursting his bubble session, rehashing old crimes & hurts. So they were fresh again. It created a cold distance between us.

Suddenly I woke up & realised i'd broken my [censored] to get him to love & want me again, and as soon as he was secure I pushed him away.

I would never have tought i was capable of doing that, the result is I got all the statements i had used to him said back to me, "I don't need you, i can survive without you, i do love you, it's your choice, you need to decide to committ or get lost & let me get busy living".

"With great power comes great responsiblity" - Spiderman's uncle Ben.

This is so through, be careful - beware of destructive thought patterns - remember thoughts are the precursor to actions. Focus on your goal.

It is great to realise you've come the full circle & are confident again and really can live. What you have to do however is now give yourself the space to acknowledge what youo've worked so damn hard for and go about seeking ways of improving it even further.

With kind regards ktulu.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so through, be careful - beware of destructive thought patterns - remember thoughts are the precursor to actions. Focus on your goal.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is exactly what has been my greatest undoing at times. I started over with working on changing myself this weekend with the idea that EVERY day I will remind myself of just that. My sitch is different in that I am both the WS and the BS. Dealing with a lot of messiness but we have young children to consider. Without children I can guarentee you that we would be D. Does that sound negative? No, I think realistic. H and I both brought way too much baggage from our early years into our M. We have a terrific C who is pro M and working on our issues and rebuilding a new R. We love each other, we love our children and are committed to our M. One more case of infidelity on either part and it is over though.

In answer to your original question Cymanca, if it were not for my children I would not have stayed with my H after his first A. His behavior for 2 years was horrible. He resented me for my actions during his A. After I fought for him, I really had to examine whether I wanted him still.
After his 2nd A, his old self that I fell in love with 15 years ago was back and I fell in love with him all over again.

Sorry this is so long, didn't mean to ramble on.

FF,

Thanks for the input. I am not seeing any gender trends here yet. Hopefully we will have enough responses to at least give us some anecdotal tendencies.