Update. Almost forgot, WW talked to SIL today about conversation. I didn't really ask anything about it. All I gathered was WW told SIL it was pretty rough. At least she's thinking about it. Also she sent me an email hoping I was having a good day today.

Can you spare me a chance to rant here, in a safe and healthy way?

Cruising the boards and listening to Handel's Messiah. Alleluiah just played. Hello trigger! WW had that "special" ringer in her phone for OM. Asked her if she had the "death march" as the special ringer for me when I saw that (this was a month ago. LB, maybe, thought it appropriate at the time). Shows how sick this whole thing is. Anyways, just realized she has now ruined churchgoing for me as they only say Alleluiah about a thousand times there during service. Aaaaaarrrrrgggghhhh!!!!

Very glad you are not giving up. We all come here with our different point of views. My H and I are working very hard to recover, rebuild, so that's my point of view. She will see everything, Bear. She will process it, maybe not consciously, but it adds up, and when the two halves of her brain start talking to each other, she will have that "holy [censored]" moment and see you with completely different eyes.

You remind me of my H ... that is a great compliment!

As for triggers, my H was the cantor in our church, the OM the lector. We don't go anymore. Up to about a month ago, every Sunday was a test. Our last child was born, oh, two weeks after DD (isn't that grotesque?). Everything during the A happened either in my home or my neighbourhood. It has helped to remember that my H and I were there first, and the OM is only a small part of our memories. Really, he was/is a cancer that can be excised.

After the high is gone and after the justifications are gone, I am left with deep, deep shame. And amazement and gratitude for my very patient H. I am confident you will get your W back, maybe even better than before.

Thanks for the support BDGD. When I here from you it gives me hope for my WW and our life together.

FWW here too Bear

Much of what your ww said is just so much like the WS babble & fog speak book that it was easy to spot. SO many sad memories in them too for me.
We seem to say very similar things in similar situations to justify our actions.

Bear there is NOTHING wrong in openly and honestly showing your WW how much she is hurting you. As you have said it was not the needy begging behaviour that the experts warn about, but an honest display of the hurt she has inflicted on you. And she darn well knows it!!

Yes she is rewriting history to justify her affair , no doubts at all. However there is some signs of basic truth here too, obviously SF and physical touch has become a major EN for her, perhaps over the length of the M.
However, neither FWW or BS can read minds, if there is no communication of these needs how can they be filled??
Perhaps this intimate communication waned too??? BUT remember Bear, you are only half the team here.

I also think there is some sign she is realising what she has done, but maybe to soon for her to come off the fence totally. Her comments of asking if you wanted her to come "home" were very interesting & I wondered if she is looking for an excuse to do so. However it may NOT be the best thing for YOU right now, it may be too soon if there is no commitment to the M & NC

I do think it would be a mistake to appear too needy right now, it gives too much manipulative ability to a WW where you have no real demonstration of commitment...but I think there is some hope

Does this mean YOU have any responsibility for the A..... NO - don’t you dare accept that!

Does it mean you have some responsibility for allowing the M to become vulnerable ..... YES but only as much as your WW has, no more no less Bear.

The chance to recover this M, if of course you are going to want that, will ONLY come after your WW gets off the fence, accepts responsibility for the A & all the pain she caused, and commits to NC, though it wont all happen quickly or at the same time.

Are you seeing a IC or MC Bear, because I think you should. A good one is worth it.

Not to threadjack Bear but I'd like to say thanks to BDGD and Aussieswife for their insight into the WW phsyche. Their posts reinforce the things that we hear on fog talk.

Bear since you and I are basically the same I'm usually hearing most of the same stuff that you are, with some subtle differences I'm sure. I think/hope that I've been able to do a good job detaching from her and using reverse babble, I try very hard to and hope it's getting me somewhere.

So Bear is she out of the house then?

Yeah, she's been at her P's house since Dday, cakeeating from them. FIL & SIL are sick of it and set this weekend as time for her to move back (per 3 month agreement they had post Dday). My W, knowing her, not WW, is the type of person that needs to be pushed into things that she wants for herself. She wants to "save face" so to speak. "I am only doing this because I'm forced to", but secretly it is what she wanted. There have been instances (none this big) where this has happened only to find out she told SIL or a friend this is what she wanted all along and she made the decision. Complete rewrite, but end result the same.

That is why I think there is this talk of, "well, I'll just move back becasue YOU can't live without me" and "I miss living here", etc. But she did add a "miss house, not you" dig. Even though the reverse is true, and she is facing a deadline. But it gives her the perfect excuse.

Now, I am not sure I want the vile WW back, fact is I don't. But I would like the opportunity to do a real effective plan A and set some boundaries (NC, party life, etc).

Native, the difference between us, I see, is that WW is out of house now, BUT her P's won't enable her to run around. She has only gone out once or twice in 2 months.

Bear
I will post very quickly before I go to bed - its after 1 am here - (Hi Native00 how are things)
You know your ww sounds ripe for a good IC & MC and a good solid plan A WITH boundaries you know.
Staying at P place and NOT being allowed to run around like some single girl by her P not enabling the A by not baby siting etc has given you a good opportunity BUT please please get A good MC & IC as well for her/you perhaps.
SO many think 'I can do this ' BUT the WW is likely to have so many issues!!
Some not to do with you at all directly. I was lucky in that my MC was also a professional IC doctor & saw both my H & I. Shes an angel of mercy I swear... can't get away with anything but she nails you
I am learning a lot about what I do and why and so much is not to do with H at all. This is me, my responsibility. But once I know about it my h can then help me when I explain those things.
I think your WW is so much like that from your descriptions. Heaps of hidden issues.

Please investigate the options Bear, I know it costs but so do divorces!!

*** DELETE ***

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Bear04 ]</small>

AussieW- We have an MC and IC. Have been to 4 sessions together. Me 2 alone, and her on her thrird alone this week. WW lied to me & MC during counseling about NC. Didn't really want to work things out according to her, but still faithfully goes. After my second IC, MC told me that best course of action from here was to have joint MC, but she would still like to see WW alone. (Haha, I knew she was a loon! It's not me, it's her! I'm cured! JUST KIDDING) MC basically saw that I was getting it. Rage and anger was gone. I was clear about what I wanted. I don't have any deep seeded issues, though admit I do need to change behavior about some things. WW, still in fogland. She has family issues and I think suffers from depression and for sure a self-esteem issue.

A good MC. How do you know who is good, first of all? Secondly, this MC knows our whole history and WW is comfortable with her, making a switch might not be a good thing. One thing, she is pro-M. She guaranteed me that she will be the last to give up on us, that we would BOTH have to decide to end M before she would. Only worries me that she didn't recognize WW fogtalk. Now, after WW contradicts herself 100 times, she is starting to figure that out.

Update- Bad news. WW discovered I was monitoring her cell phone activity. She has been more concerned with how I am fining out my info than working on our R. Asked her for new passwords as she has locked me out. I told her that there can be no secrets, this is a not negotiable with me.

Bear,

As I read your posts..what I see most clearly is a confusion and blurring of Plan A and Recovery.

Until your wife commits to the marriage and ends her A, all of these rules are just waiting to be broken. She is still in her affair..she is not interested in your needs.

I'd bone up on my game plan..until she is IN..assume that she is at least halfway out [of her mind and will lie, cheat, and sell her grandma into slavery in order to continue in a consequence free environment]

Noodle

<small>[ December 07, 2004, 03:03 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bear04:
<strong> Update- Bad news. WW discovered I was monitoring her cell phone activity. She has been more concerned with how I am fining out my info than working on our R. Asked her for new passwords as she has locked me out. I told her that there can be no secrets, this is a not negotiable with me. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She isn't afraid of you finding out more than working on the R. She is afraid you will find out she isn't working on the R.

Don't fall into the fog. Pray for a clear mind and a calm heart. You have to learn to see past the babble.

L.

She can babble all she wants, but she is going to do it one side of the fence or the other. I just talked with WW again. Told her that I felt bad about what I did (violation of privacy) but that I also felt forced into it because of the continued lying and deceit that was going on. Told her I needed to feel like I was safe and didn't have to keep looking over my shoulder. She could make me feel safe by NC and giving me her new passwords she changed so that I could know there were no secrets. "No more secrets. I will not live in a R like this." She said "No, I'm not going to give them to you."

I finally told her to get out. "I am not going to work on R w/someone who is going to lie to me and cheat on me. I don't want to be involved with you anymore. You can please leave now."

As I expected. She said no, she is not leaving. WW wants M, but wants secrecy. Didn't have time to go any further. At work. Told her when I got home she could either be gone, or she can agree to NC, etc.

Bring on the 2x4s, I don't care. I didn't scream. I spoke soft but firm. Bottom line, I am RIGHT and I feel good for taking a stand. This is my boundary.

Bear,

No 2x4 here..I took a very similar approach, told him on D day that I would not be reduced to hiding in the bushes and sneaking around his lies. I really would rather have him just leave. Some people do not feel reduced by this..but I do and I can not be moved to feel otherwise.

If this is a boundary for you, then it is..and no amount of pursuasion will make you feel differently.

Although I very much admire Orchids reverse babble..and I do think it can be effective..I am simply too direct for such a thing..I hold people accountable for their declarations. If you say that you want out..get packing, otherwise say you are feeling foul and receive sympathy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> because everyone has bad times and needs support..but I will never support someone in their mistreatment of me, not for any reason. I won't dangle on that line, it is out of sinc with my nature. if that is how you feel also..and truly would rather see her gone than abusing your goodwill..then you have probably done the right thing.

Noodle

Bear,

No 2x4 just need to get you to plan your impacts a bit better. ok?

You have now given your plan away. Ok, now please step back and work on a plan before making it up as you go. Think with your head not your heart.

The moving part. You'd better secure what that means. A wife can go to the police and without disclosing her A she can make you seem abusive by saying you threatened to kick her out.

So talk to a lawyer and setup separation agreement with the request to for her to move out.

Don't want to scare you but you need to think your actions through thoroughly.

How soon can you get to your MC or do phone counseling w/Jennfier @ MB? You really need some close guidance with your plan.

L.

Noodle- you know when you turned the corner? When you realize that WS needs you more than you need them. That is exactly what will cause them to chase you.

Bear,

Can you fill me in again on your story? Have you exposed this affair yet?

A is fully exposed. Not worried about local law enforcement. This is a small town, besides WW knows she be disowned from family and shunned from town if she pulled stunt like that. I just talked to FIL and told him what I told her. Said I was sorry but I was not going to be treated this way, etc. He supports me.

Did I think this through, no, probably not. But I acted when it was appropriate. I am not leaving our house. She hasn't lived there in three months.

Have you all seen the movie Miracle? When the coach just keeps pushing the team and everyone is worried he is going to drive them over the edge. He responded he knows what he is doing, he knows how hard to push. Well, after 10 years with WW, I know how hard and which buttons to push.

She hid that A from me because I had my eyes closed to it w/blind trust. She is resembling W rather than WW more every day, despite the babble of the other night. I know that she wants back home, I feel it, she just needs to find the way. I also will be shocked if she doesn't commit to NC, and keep it this time. If that is the case, well, I don't want to be with THAT person anyway.

Bear,

I am now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> confoozed! Is she living with you in your family home or not? Is she a WS, Xws or spouse right now?

L.