Lemonman:

I'm just going to spend a little time challenging your intellect. You're an MD---correct?? I'd assume that you're a bright guy, who can think for himself. Did you do a psych rotation?

Look at WS's in general (or yours in specific). Do you see behavioral similarities in comparison to substance abusers? If you can see that, then think about what successful treatment paths are known for substance abusers. And then compare this to Harley's Plan A/B approach (if you understand it). I think you'll see some striking similarities.

Do addicts cave into their addiction for the sole purpose of making those around them miserable? Or is that simply a consequence for those who are close to the addict? Can addicts get better?? If so, what are the precautions that are needed to be able to 'trust' the addict?

On another vein, you (understandably) wrote off your wife with the second betrayal. Let's say that your wife didn't have an affair---she had leukemia. And for her first round of treatment, she went with a homeopathic herb treatment. Seemed to get better for a while, but then relapsed. Would you suggest that she quit, or rather suggest that she go for a proven treatment.

I took my WS back. It's clear that I wasn't a "first choice" at the time. That's fine with me---the same way I know that an addict isn't cured when they say "I'm ready to get clean", or a cancer patient is cured after the first dose of chemo. Marriage is a journey. The MB stuff is a roadmap---but you may have a few detours. Some aren't particularly pleasant. But as long as you've got the vision of where you want to go, the tools to find your way there, and the patience and stamina to deal with the ride---it's pretty effective.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong> Lemonman:


On another vein, you (understandably) wrote off your wife with the second betrayal. Let's say that your wife didn't have an affair---she had leukemia. And for her first round of treatment, she went with a homeopathic herb treatment. Seemed to get better for a while, but then relapsed. Would you suggest that she quit, or rather suggest that she go for a proven treatment.

I took my WS back. It's clear that I wasn't a "first choice" at the time. That's fine with me---the same way I know that an addict isn't cured when they say "I'm ready to get clean", or a cancer patient is cured after the first dose of chemo. Marriage is a journey. The MB stuff is a roadmap---but you may have a few detours. Some aren't particularly pleasant. But as long as you've got the vision of where you want to go, the tools to find your way there, and the patience and stamina to deal with the ride---it's pretty effective. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With all due respect, your analogy to Leukemic treatments is horrible IMO. The WS does NOT choose to get Leukemia.....HOWEVER she/he CHOOSES to have an affair. It goes back to my principle that I do NOT believe in all of this "addiction", "Fog" "alien behavior" excuses for an ADULT making a conscious decision to have an affair and CONTINUE it. Ofcourse I would not EVER give up on a family member or spouse who was fighting leukemia, etc...If I use your thinking, ONE SHOULD NEVER GIVE UP ON A MARRIAGE WHEN THERE IS A WAYWARD SPOUSE, AFTER ALL IT IS AN ADDICTION RIGHT? It is a sickness right.....BULL$hit !!!!!!!!!!!!! I know that I would NEVER EVER CHEAT on a spouse...NO MATTER WHAT. This is a CONSCIOUS decision that I CAN make. I cannot say the same thing that I will never get cancer or catch a serious viral illness, etc.. This goes once again back to my point of CHARACTER. Yes, I am saying that people who cheat on their spouses FOR WHATEVER REASON are made of less character. That is what I believe. DO people make mistakes?....YES...hence why I think a one time mulligan is allowed. EVERYONE deserves a second chance. I know that many people don't want to hear that their WS are made of less character, because after all, what does that say about the BS who chooses to stay with them? I understand the feelings you get. I do think that people who cheat can change, BUT I really think character here is so much a stronger issue than people want to give it credence. If I chose to stay with my wife after YET ANOTHER betrayal, you bet your A$$ I would be on here saying that it is a "disease" and an "addiction" and not her character....so I do understand where you are coming from. We can agree to disagree here. THAT IS OK <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> You can never change my mind on this and I suspect vice versa. Once again, that is ok. YOu are not challeging my intellect here.

To answer your questions --> I did do a psych rotation in medical school (6 miserable weeks of my life). I am an MD also. I have talked ad nauseum about these issues to various psych collegaues and counselors. There is a lot of differeing opinion on these issues. None right or wrong really. Harley's methods definitely have strong VALIDITY....but he is not the be all and end all to marriage counseling and recovery. I am pretty sure that perhaps one or two couples in this world's history have recovered their marriages or found personal recovery not using the MB philosophy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

Thank you for your post.

LM

LM

I guess you could also say that someone that stays with a WS through this has MORE character because they do stick with their vows despite what the WS did.

I really don't understand your problem here LM. You don't like the MB philosophy then perhaps some place might suit you better. I do think you are mistaking a few things. People here do NOT canonize Harley, but they use his articles, approaches as a common touch stone that communications between people here is better grounded. Common terminology is very important and thus it is used.

I doubt seriously that anyone here falls on their knees every night and prays to Harley, it is NOT a belief after all it is an approach, a very effective approach.

You have essentially in your protestations simply set up a "strawman" and then attacked it. It has not helped you to do this, and frankly your powers of persuasion are not that great either. The fact of the matter is IF someone whats or even is considering saving their marriage be it from infidelity, neglect, ignorance whatever, this approach is effective. If they do not want to save it, then fine.

Frankly, I don't care if you decide to save it or not. If you do and you would like some advice or just conversation wonderful. If you do not want to save it, then save your criticism of people here or the MB approach. The people here are trying to save their marriage and not just from infidelity.

LM, in your world things may be black and white, in this world things are NEVER black and white. Hence one is often well advised to take a more passive approach until they do understand what the situation is and then have a plan to address it. Even you understand that a plan is important, I doubt seriously you start cutting on someone without some idea of your goal, the complications and the obstacles. And then surprising things happen even with a plan.

That is all this site is about...a plan for those who want to try and improve, change, save, or even begin a marriage. Do you suppose if you had met your spouses needs better that she might not have made the decisions she did? They clearly were/are her decisions and she is paying for them. But could things have been better, will your next relationship and marriage be better? You have to decide then you have to plan, what will YOUR plan be?

So could we stop this nonsense. If you don't like the site, if you have no use for the information, if you are not interested in saving your marriage or helping someone else to save their's, if you have better things to do, then perhaps you should do them.

LM people come here for help. Sometimes the problems are terminal as in your case. Sometimes the situation can be saved, it all rests with the decisions of the people here. I am sure you can be of use to this process but rest assured they don't need to be told to just leave...THAT IS THE FIRST THING ANYONE THINKS ABOUT when they have been betrayed. So it is not a novel idea. It may turn out to be the best idea but that needs to be determined after careful thought.

JL

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am pretty sure that perhaps one or two couples in this world's history have recovered their marriages or found personal recovery not using the MB philosophy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm pretty sure that a few people have had spontaneous leukemia regression on homeopathic treatments too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No---Harley is not the be-all and end-all---in fact, he's continually refining his methods as he assesses what works and what doesn't work (and my impression is that he's revised Plan A periods to be 'shorter', although I have not spoken to him or Steve H directly regarding that). The thing I like about Harley is that he's systematic about these approaches and bases them on what works emperically. He's a researcher. He and his family are committed to making better marriages across the world---and I've never gotten the impression that the motivation is financial.

You didn't like the leukemia treatment analogy (and that's OK---it was a stretch). But you didn't mention anything about the addiction analogy. It's pretty accurate, and it describes a lot of your wife's behaviors.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">know that I would NEVER EVER CHEAT on a spouse...NO MATTER WHAT. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know what---everyone who gets married (well, nearly everyone) says that. The statistics say that 7 out of 10 of us are liars. I say the same thing too---but I also back it up with appropriate behaviors and strategies to protect my marriage.


Lemonman---you live in a world of absolutes, apparently (a surgeon, perhaps??) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . To answer your original question:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know that people say here that it does not matter why the WS comes back, just that they do so the marriage can be recovered. In reality I just don't get this. AM I wrong for not agreeing with this? One of my rules for reconciliation was profound remorse and a committment to "want" to be with me. I know that I NEVER would have taken my WS back if she came back by default and not on her own. WHat do you all think about this? Does it not really matter in the end? Just curious. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am proof that it does not matter, that you can successfully recover, and that you can get through profound tragedy and forge a new, better marriage. So yes---you are "wrong" in that it's completely possible (and we see successes here often). You're not wrong in the way you feel, or what your limits are. You may not be "tough" enough to deal with this kind of trauma. You may not have had enough motivation (children) to stick it out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by K:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm pretty sure that a few people have had spontaneous leukemia regression on homeopathic treatments too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

what your limits are. You may not be "tough" enough to deal with this kind of trauma. You may not have had enough motivation (children) to stick it out. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">***SIgh*** I guess. This thread should be closed. Whatever.............

Huh??

Why should it be closed?

I don't agree with a lot of what you said, lm, but that's because I'm in my sitch and you're in yours. I have 2 kids, you have none. I'm a geologist and you're a "real" doctor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

For me, it was never a clear-cut decision 2 "take my WS back" or not. She never left. And so long as she wasn't seeing the OM after d-day, (she thought), there was no reason she couldn't "keep" both relationships.

I was one of those (many) BSs that was utterly devastated by my W's 12-yr A. Looking back, I know now that I was as devastated as I was because I was "emotionally fused" (David Schnarch's terminology) 2 my W (and she 2 me, though she would deny that - "fierce independence" is a sure sign of insecurity and dependency).

And so, for me, recovery was first about getting "unfused" and becoming an emotionally more healthy, strong individual. That 2k me a long time and a lot of work. I probably have a ways 2 go. But I will answer your 2uestion pretty much like Pep did, with some elaboration perhaps:

If my W were 2 have another A (or if she resumes the previous one), I would be happy 2 let her go. I don't personally need that particular self-improvement impetus anymore - I've been at it for almost 3 years now and would love 2 try something else even more spiri2ally enlightening next. I don't think my W and I are on the "same page" even now, and part of my own journey at this time is watching her grow. It's a beautiful sight, 2. I've heard her say things and seen her do things that I thought were ancient his2ry - things about her that made me want 2 marry her 30 years ago.

Recovery takes a day at a time. It's not something you can blow off, though it might seem like it 2 some. And that's simply because recovery from trauma, any trauma, is a must, and it's on a PERSONAL level. BSs with kids 2 think about just have an "excuse" 2 try 2 rebuild the M. In some ways, I think that this tends 2 cloud the simple, basic fact that we all MUST recover. Personal recovery comes first. Then the M, if that's the right thing 2 do.

If my M doesn't recover, and it might not even at this point, I will still love my W as my generation-long partner and mother 2 our wonderful kids.

Point is, I guess, that I will never have that fairy-land M that I thought I was signing up for 29 years ago. Fact is, I wouldn't want the clingy, needy R that I ended up living, ever again. But it 2k an A for me 2 come 2 that realization.

I'm going 2 be selfish and say that this whole experience was for my personal benefit. It 2k a long time, but I did 2rn adversity in2 oppor2nity - for MY benefit. Now, maybe, I can help those around me a bit.

-ol' 2long

I have a problem with the addiction scenario too, if it means that we are suggesting that people have no control over their actions.

I don't think we can compare infidelity with addiction. Infidelity is a decision.

(But so is grace. So is forgiveness.)

It may be that in some cases, for example where there are unmet needs, the motivation is stronger.

And my feeling is that when we compare infidelity of men and women we are comparing apples with oranges.

I think in general, we have to be careful about making blanket judgements, or any judgements, even when we are the BS.

I might have strong motivation for adultery, and yet choose to remain faithful.

For me, under the circumstances, it might be considered permissable, even advisable . ( Over the years, a numver of people have advised me to forget my H and find someone else .)

But I have chosen to be faithful.

Since I haven't got any desire to be with anyone else, this isn't a credit to me.

And even though I may not have sinned in this particular way, it is certain that I am not without sin in other areas.

If my husband is weak in this area, and I am equally weak in another, I don't have any business throwing stones.

Where adultery might be a great sin for one person, for me, gossip might be a greater sin, do you see?

Its why the measure we use is the measure used with us.

(And I need all the grace I can get.)

Its also why we are instructed to forgive, just as we have been forgiven .

I have been forgiven much.

If I condemn my H for his sins, I am like the man who went to the temple and said " Thank God I am not like other men- I tithe, I fast" etc....

Remember, it was the man who beart his breast and said "God be merciful to me a sinner', who went away justified.

Maybe its best to leave the judging to God, who alone knows our spouses hearts... the hurts or unmet needs that compell them... and concentrate on the logs in our own eyes.

Yes, what they are doing to us is wrong.

Yes, they don't deserve for us to take them back.

Yes it hurts. Yes, its not fair.


But...

Getting nailed to a cross hurt.
It was not 'fair'.
He didn't deserve to die for our sins.
We didn't deserve to have him suffer in our place.

But that is the definition of grace: undeserved favor.

And we are to be like him, yes?


Shul

LEMONMAN- You know me, I am a FWW, and I do agree with you to some extent.
I do agree that we FWWs have some character flaws, that come from within us, do to bad childhood,or sexual abuse, or whatever the reason.
I do agree that infidelity is something that should be forgiven only once. One opportunity should be all the betrayer is entitle to.
If I would continue contact with the OM, again, and again, even though I would want my husband to take me back, I really would respect him more if he doesnot!! If I screw up the huge opportunity he already gave me, by staying with me and trying to save our marriage, I dont deserve anything else!!!
And yes marriages failed and had sucess before the Hartley method. A lot of people just use common sense in doing things and those things work too.
I dont think you should close this thread, everybody is entitled to post their different oppinions. Yours is very different, radical, but you can either take it or leave it, some people will get influence by you,others with stronger oppinions will not.
About the fog, I do, believe in that.
When you first start the affair, you are m aking a concious move to get in or not. But after you are in the affair, your mind gets all foggy with the craziness,the adulation,etc.
So, yes, my flaws as a person, made me make the decission of having the affair, but after, the fog engulfed me and I lost total control.

My oppinion!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

MYRTA

<small>[ December 08, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Ok....

LemonMan has been there on numerous occassions to support me at a time when I thought taking my life would be easier then facing what my ww was doing.

I look back now ( only four days ) and I'm glad I stuck with it. My ww is now going on 16 with nc ( PI proven ) and I'm very proud of her. I also have noticed she is starting to open up to me more about her A..

I'm lucky in a way because my ww has not left yet, oh she tells me every couple day's that she is still moving out in June of 05 and maybe she will. Maybe she will even start seeing OM again, either way by the end of this journey I will have become a better man towards my ww and my children.

I don't agree with all of LM's thoughts on taking back ws but I think it has to do a lot with the person and how much they are willing to invest.

When we first decide to come here , are we not choosing second fiddle, were all just trying to find ways to keep are spouses happy enough to choose us out of the pen of chickens. And no i'm not a chicken choker ( sorry still working on my humour ) .... LM posted on my thread that he respected me for the Love I had for my wife, he did not tell me I was not a man or that I was stupid, He told me my wife was lucky for the kind of Love I had for her.

I also have enough love for myself that if my wife were to continue with her lie's and having contact with Om I would do exactly what LM did, I would put my boot to her [censored]..

I would drive her right over to the OM's and put a little bow on her with a note saying careful may bite and will cheat...LOL

I chose to save my M for a variety of reason's and I have listed them below.

1) LOVE

2) Respect

3) I made a vow for better or for worse

4) I owe it to stand by her side

5) My kids ( weak I know but true )

6) The A helped me realize my faults as well

7) I won't let an A be the cause of a good M going south

8) LOVE


Do I think people that have an A have some character flaws, I sure as hell do.

My ww came from a home where her mom cheated on her dad... Her dad found out confronted mom and then drove her over to the guys house with all of her belonging's....

She of course Married the guy and divorced my wifes dad. The guy she married is a total loser, and my wife has no respect for himeven after all of these yrs..

I asked FIL if he wished he could have saved his M and he told me at the time NO but yrs later he wished he had the guts to stand by her side and fix it.

One of my bad LB's was reminding my wife that her and her mom have more in common then she thinks.. ( Both had A's )

I know bad LB but at times it felt so good to say. MIL hates me anyway and is all for the A, tells the ww that she is happy with Om and so will she...Nice parent huh...

Well there is my 2 cents or maybe it's less since i'm still new here.

LM thanks for your Love and your help, also thanks for the 2X4's when needed..

MIchael:

Thank you for your post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

LM

LM,

In your story thread you mention your W and her OM were an item before you met her. And you mention drugs were involved back then. Do you have any reason to suspect drugs were also involved in her A?

If that is the case, MB principles do not apply, or so I read. Physical abuse or drug/alcohol use negates M recovery plans as taught here. An A mixed with drug use is very hard to end. It's a double whammy. M recovery cannot be addressed until the abuse/drug use is overcome first.

Speaking of addictions, the same areas of the brain light up in FMRI with in-love feelings and cocaine use. The same chemicals are released in the brains of OCD patients and people in romantic love.

As with K's challenge, the addiction to OM is as real as a substance addiction. As an MD, how would you help a user get ready for recovery? How would you treat a user finally ready for recovery? Could you still help them even after several false recoveries? Does any of this make sense wrt your W and her problems?

I learned a number of things about addictions coming from an alcoholic riddled family. I was involved in the interventions with each of my brothers. One took to recovery right away and is sober these 20 years. He was finally ready, after 15 years in his love affair with drugs and alcohol. One was not sure if he was ready and it took three cycles of false recovery and treatment before he succeeded. The third brother is still living a life of misery and addiction. He is not yet ready. But when he is, the family and I will be there for him. Character flaws or not, I will not let his actions affect my life in the meantime.

Maybe your W is suffering something analogous to a disease. I think mine is.

All that said, I support your decision to D. I am happy you know what you want. I often wish I could see through to my own decisions as clearly as I seem to see the validity of other’s.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stanley568:
<strong> Deja Vu:

Like you I always said an affair would not be tolerated. On D-day I told my wife that she had done the unthinkable and that the marriage was over------- for me there was no other choice. However, I felt that my world ended since the marriage had been quite good for 30 years.

Then 16 hours later I swallowed my pride and told my wife I would try to stay married to her. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Stanley, I have followed your story peripherally over the past couple of months. The two of you are extraordinary people, IMO, and are doing what not everyone could do. I am happy for anyone who is willing and able to make the effort, and for whom it pays off.

We all have our weak spots, and one of mine is a fear of rejection and abandonment. I know where it comes from - and it goes deep into my roots, back into my childhood, and is tied up with family tragedy following WWII. My father "abandoned" his first family - and though I understand it now as an adult (he had to, to save his own life) as a child - the oldest child - I feared his abandonment and also grew up assuming that people solve problems by leaving other people.

Another of my weaknessesis a need to be in touch with reality and the rational. For me one of the worst things would be to discover my judgement was flawed or my reasoning unsound. So, to find out I'd been duped, that someone was sneaking around behind my back while I was clueless - is unthinkable. (This is an ego problem of mine, I know.) And finally, for me there is a respect issue. I know this is MY personal value - that fidelity and respect go hand in hand - but it is something I doubt I could compromise.

That being said, I have not had to put my money where my mouth is. Circumstances are what they are, and we can't know in advance what will happen - so I suppose forgiveness is possible, even for me. Also, there are no kids involved for me - so there are several reasons my situation is different from those of others on this board.

I'm thankful I'm not having to make this decision now - but I also know that people CAN make choices. Once someone has had a personal experience so traumatic that they are not willing to experience it ever again, they can be fairly certain of what they will do in the future. If it weren't for that, none of the BS's could take back their WS's and ever trust again. We all have to believe that maturity goes along with making choices, and that sometimes we make choices that are difficult but necessary, if we are ever to look ourselves in the mirror again. I am not saying we will not experience temptation - but that we will NOT succumb to it. For me, if I really wanted to give in to temptation, I would have to ask myself what I was doing in my M - and either leave the M (first), or leave the temptation. I consider these choices to be mutually exclusive, and I know I can make choices and stick by them.

Stanley, you and Myrta have found a different answer. Perhaps yours is the better answer, because you've both had to put your $$ where your mouth is, and I haven't.

Thanks for sharing. You've given me something to think about.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Bob Pure:
<strong> BTW if we had no kids I'd have divorced her starting D-day.

Lets be honest here. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really do think this is a key point. It's one thing to start your own life over, but it's another thing to uproot the lives of others, especially children. I chose long ago to not have kids because in part I was afraid I would not do right by them; that I was not unselfish enough to be a good parent. I think parenting is the most serious of responsibilities, and I didn't think I was up for it.

Sometimes it may be best for the kids if the parents separate - especially when there is abuse or addiction - but not always. I truly think parents should be willing to put their children's welfare ahead of their own when they are weighing their options.

I am one of those who would never cheat, who never has, and who always thought that if my H had an A I would immediately kick him out. Things did not work out that way. First I now have 3 teenagers, and by the time I confirmed the A (it was too hard to accept that it could be true only based on suspicions for quite a while)my WH and I already had an understanding that he would leave after the holidays because "de didn't love me anymore". So what did I do? Make sure he understood that he HAD TO LEAVE as soon as possible WITHOUT hurting our daughters chances of getting into University next year, which means right after Xmas. My WH said he was sorry but has continued the A and never said he would not.
So I'm in a sort of half planA, pre plan B situation of my own design.
Now about reconciliation and forgiveness: at this point I know I could forgive but I'm not sure if we could ever get back together. What I am sure of is that feelings change according to many things and therefore I will wait until plan B to try to decide whether I want to save my marriage. With all the hurt, the pain, the lack of remorse, and the anticipation of the devestation it will do to our family once the affair is exposed to my kids, I don't think I can honestly say what I will feel or decide to do.
To complicate things, THE FOG IS REAL (LM)! My WH is either in the fog, or has split personalities or some other psychiatric condition that I'm trying to find out about. (I'm an MD, too).
If he never comes out of it, it is obviously some other kind of personality disorder not related to the A. I don't like the person he is now so I would not want to be with him and D will be the answer. If he does come out and I'm still around, the consequences of what he has done and how he has behaved will be so horrible for him I'm afraid he may not be able to stand himself, much less the rest of the world.
I will have already survived his actions and if this is his first "mistake" I will give him a second chance. Actually I feel I will be protecting him from himself, (while I am now protecting myself from him). So I see this as a no win situation, where recovery is not even in the plan. But how do I know that he is in the fog and it is not a mind disease? I don't.
There are so many "ifs" to all this...
On the other hand Lemonman, I agree with a lot of the things you have stated.

Hmm---- maybe I am lucky. Not sure it is the right thing to have when the wife has an affair. My FWW either has a VERY STRONG WILL or she did not love the OM as much as she thought. She was able to end the affair on D-day and was rather blunt with the OM about it

In any event my WW showed remorse and asked me to forgive her right away on D-day. I insisted that divorce was the only answer and even asked her to leave the house and to go join the OM. I said this because I wanted more reasons to convince myself that a divorce was in order.

In retrospect, forgiveness was the right thing to do. My wife wants to stay married and she has promised to do whatever it takes to rebuild the marriage. So in this instance it would be detrimental to follow through with a divorce. BTW, I also have a lot of pride, but then I realized that my wife would have also forgiven me for a similar offense. I also had to take in consideration that my wife had a very stormy childhood and infidelity was common in her household. In the end it was hard for her to escape her past. So, I believe it was right and correct to take her back.

As for the FOG----- she did some things that can only be explained with the so-called FOG------- there is no other explanation!

CC46:

I think I am one of those who cannot cheat. The funny thing is that this has nothing to do with religion or a strict upbringing. I grew up with a nice set of parents (a blessing!) and infidelity was unknown in both sides of my family. I certainly had my chances and even attempted to cross the line, but I could not do it. I don’t believe I am better than my wife, but there is a difference between us that can only be explained with different childhood experiences and that thing called low self-esteem.

Your H will soon realize he made a mistake------- it is a matter of time. Hang in there! Just wondering------- is he a doctor too? Do you see self-esteem issues? Is your H out of the house?

Stanley, to answer your questions, yes he is an MD too, he's not out of the house because as I said before we are not exposing the affair until my daughters finish their exams which will be the 23rd december, so we will have Xmas with the extended families as usual (his idea, fog???? my family knows about the A and he hasn't been able to face them) and then he will leave. He is currently trying to find a place to live, and if I ask he will tell me how things are progressing in that matter.
I also probably had many chances to have an A but never even allowed myself near the edge of that boundary, on purpose.
My worst fear is that when he realizes what he has done (because at this point he is so much in a fog that he behaves as though it were a "normal" thing) he might not be able to survive it, I mean forgive himself. I say this because I have known him for 20+ years and I know that moral and family are VERY important issues to him as they are for me. So I'm being specially careful of not blaming him, but I could never reconcile if he doesn't accept his responsibility and shows remorse. I'm sure he will move out because once he tells our daughters he will have no choice. He has said that he isn't going to live with OW but I bet she'll try to move in with him and I don't think he will want that, but that's their problem, not mine. I will be in plan B, and I know I'm strong enough to have no contact with him as long as I know that he will be able to communicate with his daughters and I can keep an eye on his mental health thru them. He doesn't have any friends (I'm his best friend) and his family is not an option I don't think.
have to go but will be back later

Lemmonman,

I agree with you on a couple of points and I also disagree with you on certain issues.

The choice of a marriage partner is a crap shoot...just as no one can really predict whether a spouse will eventually cheat or not...it`s impossible to predict which prospective partners will choose to recover from infidelity. When a WS chooses to cheat...it`s a roll of the dice...will they luck out and have a BS who will choose to recover OR will they be dumped?

I take absolutely no issue with the BS who decides to divorce their WS...the circumstances do not matter. Some people are simply unwilling to try and recover from a trauma such as adultery and that`s well within their rights. Infidelity is a dealbreaker and only the luckiest of the WS`s will have the opportunity to repair their mess. I do not second guess ANY BS who opts for an immediate D.

I am the BS but I do identify with the WS/WS behaviour for several reasons.

H and I had a rocky M for several years leading up to d-day. I had fallen out of love with my H before d-day. So on d-day it was the last straw and I wanted a divorce. The only thing that kept me in the M was the children. And my H knew this. He fully understood that I no longer wanted him.

This relates to your "second choice" query...why is the spouse staying in the M? Intially although I was the BS I was NOT staying for my H. I didn`t love him anymore. I didn`t even like him. I thought he was a cowardly loser. I felt like I did not know him. I felt like I had been duped into marriage with him.

I was in a fog.

The same type of fog a WS experiences.

When I first came to MB I was of the same opinion as you are. I thought the fog concept was a load of bullcrap. I thought it was an "excuse' for bad behaviour.

But now after 4 years of a good recovery I can see that I was in a fog too in early recovery so I can understand the WS fog.

The fog means to me that you cannot think clearly...you cannot process things logically. You no longer see your spouse for who they REALLY are. Your so wrapped up in your own confusion and pain that it distorts your view of your spouse. In a way the fog dehumanizes your spouse. They are no longer real people with real feelings. The fog allows you to hurt them and discount their feelings.

Strong emotions can do this to a person.

So now I am a firm believer in the fog because in hindsight I can see that I experienced it myself.

Just as having an A is a choice so is recovery. A person CHOOSES to recover...or not. Recovery if chosen is not impossible. It`s only impossible IF you have chosen not to recover.

I was dragged into recovery kicking and screaming. I wanted out. But I chose to give recovery a chance for my children. But I was paying recovery more than lip service...I actually worked for it. I walked the walk although initially I was a non believer. Frankly I wasn`t convinced that I wanted to recover in the early stages because I didn`t want to be married (recovered or not) with a cheater.

I am glad I chose to recover because it has made me a better and happier person overall. I have learned alot. I like myself more and am more self confident now than I was before the A. I don`t blame myself anymore for the A and I do not worry about my H having another A because if he does I will be just fine. Divorced but just fine.

So the choice for recovery was good for ME...this is ironic because I was so anti recovery in the beginning. Choosing to stay in this M was the best thing I could have done for myself.

And now H and I are back on track and I am with him FOR HIM. The fog lifted and we rediscovered one another.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 09:37 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>

CC46:

You have teen daughters------- So I assume you must be about 46 years old. Your H is likely in the same age range.

I know a GI-doc in Fla who did as your H is doing and left the house. His three daughters were devastated and one does not talk to him at all. He got a divorce and went to live with OW. However, soon afterwards he realized he had made a huge mistake. By this time his wife had met a wonderful man and eventually got married.

The GI doc is not with OW anymore and is a very unhappy lonely man (because now he has NO FAMILY).

Have you presented him the concept that relationships that start as an affair tend to do poorly. I think this is a fairly well known fact for those who are not even immersed in MB concepts. This is where I give credit to my wife. She knew quite well that a public relationship with OM was bound to be a disaster. She was quite conscious about the possibility of losing her family and the fact that OM would become a mundane ordinary man. She was well aware of these concepts despite the fact that she was in?”love”.

Is the OW a doc? Is she in the health care business?
It sounds that you are not truly following the MB dogma as you are keeping the A under wraps.

What does the OW has that you cannot offer? IMHO, there are only two things she can have. She may be younger than you and she is NEW. Generally the NEW is the aphrodisiac. However, the NEW becomes OLD very quickly once the relationship goes into broad daylight. This are concepts that your H your consider. Unless he is VERY foggy!!!

As for cheating: When I was young resident and spending a 100 hours a week in the hospital the chances were abundant. However, my wife must be a heck of a woman and she must have a knack at filling ENs. I simply could not do it. I could have pretended I was on call and spend the entire night out anytime I wanted. The on call rooms were available and I know many of my peers used them for that purpose--- I never did.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Daisy37:
<strong>From Daisy:

The fog means to me that you cannot think clearly...you cannot process things logically. You no longer see your spouse for who they REALLY are. Your so wrapped up in your own confusion and pain that it distorts your view of your spouse. In a way the fog dehumanizes your spouse. They are no longer real people with real feelings. The fog allows you to hurt them and discount their feelings.

Strong emotions can do this to a person. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who among us can honestly say this hasn't happened to them? Not me! I don't expect to be able to look at things rationally until I'm on my own for awhile and able to process things differently than I am able to now.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And now H and I are back on track and I am with him FOR HIM. The fog lifted and we rediscovered one another. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is WONDERFUL. I've very happy for you, and glad you are still here sharing wisdom with the rest of us. Even if it doesn't happen for me like it did for you, it is encouraging to know recovery IS possible, even for those who fought against it.

Deja Vu,

I just finished reading the most fascinating book,
"A General Theory Of Love" which laid out (quite convincingly for me) the theory that love is bone fide biologial/neurological/hormonal process.

It`s not some kind of magical feeling nor is it in the final analysis a choice.

You can choose to perform acts that will set you up for love but love is biological.

A quick synopsis....inorder to have strong feelings of love for a person you must be in close regular contact with them. There has to be regular physical contact. And that contact stimulates a hormone release in our brains which causes us to feel love.

How many A`s begin because of a lack of time spent with a spouse? A lack of regular close physical contact? Most if not all I would venture to guess.

All of this begins in early childhood...the brain is trained to release these hormones and to recognize them. Children who are deprived of loving contact early in life have alot of problems feeling love later on in life. They also have trouble showing love.

I read this book and it only reaffirmed the MB principals for me. The need for a couple to spend time together. The need for SF and affection. There are biological reasons why these are so vital for a strong M.

And it also reconfirmed my belief that if BOTH spouses wish to recover from an A they can. They can rekindle the feelings of love by spending time together and showing physical affection.

However sometimes recovery is not in the cards for everyone. Both spouses have to decide to commit to recovery (no matter what the initial reasons) and work at it.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Daisy37 ]</small>