Vnus,

As I noted before, if you do decide to go through with the home thing...make your marital situation very clear to the broker, if you haven't already.

VM

I have to agree with others that you are not facing reality with her A right now.
You accept TOTAL blame for the M being where it is, thats not logical nor correct.

As for accepting her continuing action VM, you are being naive and need to take a good look at her ACTIONS and NOT what she says.

She says this & then that and you run around following one lead to another. Your desire to reconcile to have a new M is obvious and you are doing a lot to improve yourself.
Unfortunately, your WW is still using you, is in the fog so deep that I doubt she can leave OM any time soon and you simply cannot trust her to tell you the truth.

Honestly VM your actions are enabling the A from the point of view of rewarding her actions with getting a VM fix when she feels like it and the OM fix when she wants it.
I really think you should consider in the circumstances Plan B now as the holidays begin rather than after, This is the time she will either miss you and seriously think about reconcilation or will show you where her interest lies with the OM.

Holidays seem to be the time where his happens a lot, pls think about using it with Plan B.

All the best but I think you are going down the wrong path in this situation and allowing yourself to be hurt so much more than you need to. Fingers crossed for you anyway.

VM,

Just after a quick recap of this thread it appears to me that the reason driving the house subject by your WS is NOT about reconciliation but about other agenda issues. Here is what I came up with:

Get the house using VM to be used for:

1. Her mom has more space.
2. OM can come and stay.
3. Her brother may stay.
4. It is an investment in her future not both of yours.
5. She is already in debt to the OM and if you can't help maybe he can or he will once you sign on the house.

Her reasoning is:

1. You owe her (buying out guilt from your previous A's.)

2. She deserves a house.

3. You don't deserve a house.

Based on the above, she is using you to get the house. She will sweet talk you when it is to her advantage and drop you like a hot potato when it is not.

This is NOT a loving relationship even on a good day. Not by a long shot.

In order to see the pix in it's real light, you may need to do some creative talking here. I refer to reverse babble of sorts. You already did that when you said that you will not sign for a house you unless you live in it.

Realize she can say yes you can live in it but unless she works on the M and and show that her reconciliation actions are permanent, it s/b all deals off. One thing most WS' can't do well is keep up a false front. Some can, see if she is one of them or not. If she isn't, you have an advantage.

You can test her loyalty in many ways. Do a background check on the OM. See where his source of income orginates. See if he is in debt up to his eyeballs and if you can check into any pre-nupitual agreements with his current & previous M's.

See WS' and OPs plot. It is how they create their 'history'. Sick but true in many cases. The OW may want the name of the OM's W. The OM may want the property of the WS's H.

Do you live in a community property type of state?

JMHO,
L.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 12:17 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Orchid - just a few things to clear up:

1. Her Mom probably won't move in, she just bought a boathome and is happier on her own.
2. Her brother DEFINITELY won't move in, my W hates him and the problems in the family are related to how he is using their Mom for financial reasons while he is a total slacker
3. Any actual going through with the house deal will DEFINITELY come with the caveat that I live there, and OM will never set foot there, and OM will be out of the picture before we close. Period.
So - I'm willing to sign if we start living together and rebuilding, which means OM is gone.
4. I have thought about whether or not she would ask OM to co-sign instead - I don't think that's an option because
a) she is independent enough to even hate the fact that he loaned her money,
b) I do believe that they are not going down a path of being together someday,
c) he owns a home on the East Coast (recently bought) and probably couldn't afford it or qualify anyway
I know where he works (same company as hers, he was relocated though), and that he's not married. I don't know about his debt.

Honestly, if she had to choose between me signing and him signing with her, she would much rather do it with me. But that's going to come with conditions.
It's entirely likely that she is, as we speak, giving up on the idea of a house at all.

Hmmm...I wonder if I should take the bull by the horns and go ahead with this and make it MY house.
Then SHE can move in when she's done with OM and be MY roommate! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aussieswife:
<strong> VM

I really think you should consider in the circumstances Plan B now as the holidays begin rather than after, This is the time she will either miss you and seriously think about reconcilation or will show you where her interest lies with the OM.

Holidays seem to be the time where his happens a lot, pls think about using it with Plan B.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I have considered that, AW, but here are my reasons for waiting:

1. I want to give it the full 6 months that SH recommends, particularly since
a) I am the FWH and should give her more time than if I were innocent because it's not just about her and OM it's also about her believing in ME again,
b) D-Day was July 27 but there have been mini-D-Days along the way, the most recent in mid-October, which is where I'm starting from

2. I know she already misses me and thinks of me while she's away with him, I don't need a Plan B to do that - she rarely if ever contacts me when she's with him anyway

With Xmas, my birthday, and New Years all happening while she is away with him, I'm sure she'll have plenty of chances to wonder what she's doing.
And there is a SMALL part of me that wonders if she's using this trip as a "final test" situation (I know, I've said that before), that the closer we get to March/April timeframe, the more she realizes she's got to get with the program. I have a feeling I will be delivering my Plan B letter right about the same time that she's contemplating making a decision anyway.

VM,

I hear what you are saying but just keep a clear mind. Critical since keeping a calm heart is even harder. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

With that said, I would like to share how my WS and OW planned stuff. At a certain point when their R got rocky, the OW would dangle the green $$ carrot or claim she was prego (the nut did this 3x with no proof). They even went so far as to plan business setups together, thought about moving to another state, buying another home (both had little or no income but some investments). Yet the Ow tried to convince the WS to squeeze out as much from me (the BS) as possible. The sad thing is that the law was on the WS' side. I made more $$ and in CA would have had to pay him alimony! Go figure. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

The point is that if the WS and OM see themselves together in any future (distant or upcoming), then the house c/b used as a tool to squeeze you past any legal and sane limit. Which they have NO right to do.

Even if you think you are 'safe' and w/b willing t/b roomies with the WS, it could bite you in the hiney in chunks. YUCK!

JMHO,
L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Orchid:
<strong> VM,
At a certain point when their R got rocky, the OW would dangle the green $$ carrot

The point is that if the WS and OM see themselves together in any future (distant or upcoming), then the house c/b used as a tool to squeeze you past any legal and sane limit. Which they have NO right to do.

Even if you think you are 'safe' and w/b willing t/b roomies with the WS, it could bite you in the hiney in chunks. YUCK!

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, yes, I will keep my eyes open.
One thing that makes me think there is no plan to involve the OM financially is this:

She took a $4000 loan from him to pay off her debts. She didn't tell me about it until about a month later, but had hinted around at it before that.
She said it was HIS idea and wanted it to be a gift, that she insisted it be a loan, one for which she signed a repayment agreement and is going through the pain of living with her Mom in a 600 sq. ft. boathome for 3 months so she can pay him off. And, she was VERY adamant that it meant nothing to the A, her words were "he could be gone tomorrow and I would still owe that money."

I have seen her online banking, and OM setup as payee in the exact amount she claimed she was giving him, and that 1 payment had already been made...she showed me all of this while on my laptop sitting in my house...so I know it's for real.

Add her independent streak in with that, and with all that she's said and that I've observed about OM not being the next love of her life, and I'm confident that there's no secret plan to involve him.

Besides, she either starts the process of financing a home with HIM and stops with me, something I'd probably take notice of since we spend lots of time together...or, she tries to add him on to OUR loan, which of course I would see before I signed anything.

If we go through with this, I will be primary on the loan, so I'll probably have more legal leverage than she does.

Yes, I would be willing to be "roommates" from the perspective of saying "OM is gone, I would like to work things out, but I don't want to completely jump back into the R."
I would be fine with us living in separate rooms and leading "separate" lives for awhile, as long as we both committed to being single for that time period.
If we buy the house, TRY and rebuild but fail, and someone moves out...well, that would be OK with me, even if I'm the one leaving. I don't mind having my name on a house in which I'm no longer living as long as I did it with the best of intentions. But I have no desire to sign for a house and never live in it at all.

We probably won't DV anytime soon if it doesn't work out, there are other reasons for us not to do so.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

Good to see you are being cautious. In our case the WS received a small loan from the OW. She wanted it t/b gifted and he quickly saw the clear fishing line attached to it. The OW was and is a troll, hooking and snagging her way through life. The A puts the OP and WS on both sides of that line with hooks on the extra (feeder lines - I think), so that others like the BS, etc. c/b hooked into their web of deciet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Just didn't want to see you get hooked that way. You seem to have your bases covered.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
take care,
L.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Orchid ]</small>

Vnus,

Might you be better off paying off the loan to the OM instead of co-signing for a home?

That would sever the relationship between them a lot more clearly, if I am hearing you right. (That repaying the loan is a factor keeping her with her mother and ties to the OM.)

You could easily do that with a condition that there is no further contact.

Hmm,

A minor observation.

My wife is a very independent person.

My wife owes OM money and is living with her Mommy.

?

Noodle

Andrew, that is an excellent idea!! Dang, I wish I had thought of that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Vnus might get screwed in the long run, but it sure would help separate the B from the S, don't you think? (and I don't mean BS as in betrayed spouse either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Andrew, Weaver:

I wish I could pay off that loan, but I'm not in a financial position to do so. I'm still paying off the balance left by breaking the lease on our old apartment, in addition to paying rent for my new place. Honestly, I'd rather save for earnest money on a house that will have MY name on it.

Noodle:

Yes, seems like a contradiction, but in reality, it kinda fits - she CAN be somewhat of a user when she wants to be, and I think she saw in OM's offer of a loan and Mom's offer of a place to live rent-free as the opportunity to pay off some of her debts. Can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. By independent, I mean, she would never TAKE money, or ASK for money, and she gets sick at the idea of taking money.

Vnus,

Think about this: if you sign with yoru wife and she stops making the payments...you are on the hook for that money.

Your wife has already told you that you OWE her a home. To me, that suggests that she is going to have very few qualms about sticking you with the mortgage payments down the road. Do you really want to be in that position?

Until your marriage is rock-solid and you know the A is over, it's just too risky.


Co-signing is NOT pushing you closer to a reconciliation.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by VnusMars:
<strong> ...Noodle:

Yes, seems like a contradiction, but in reality, it kinda fits - she CAN be somewhat of a user when she wants to be, and I think she saw in OM's offer of a loan and Mom's offer of a place to live rent-free as the opportunity to pay off some of her debts. Can't say I wouldn't do the same thing. By independent, I mean, she would never TAKE money, or ASK for money, and she gets sick at the idea of taking money. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">VM,

Here's what seems weird and scary to me. She says (like my WS used to say), I am independent, I can take care of myself, I don't want to be in debit to the OP (but I took a loan from the OP), took advantage of free rent (my WS took a rented room and added $850.00 more in expenses to his already stressed budget).....

Now when I played back his own words: Independent, not in debit to OP, saving $ by getting a room place vs an apt..... I just had to laugh (to relieve some stress). I told him is your calculator in your brain broken? You want me to pay for your bills, loan you $$, not ask for child support, etc....so you can be independent and NOT be in debit to an OP? Are you nuts? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

It was at that moment that I told him to please go borrow what your family it worth from the OW. BTW, how much are we worth, WS? $1mill? 100k? He said we were priceless. Ok, that's good to hear now go get that amount and buy us off. Then it w/b much easier to let you go (you...you...arrrrgh).

Oh I put his own words to the test. OW had prided herself on being 'rich'. I knew this OW had just refied her home with her then H in the prior year and had some $$. So I started by asking for 1mil., then 500k, when he said she was not that rich, I looked shocked? Was she lying? WS said no just not that rich. Ok I said, howz about 250k? Nope,....hm.... 100K....nope...hm.... 87500k? hm..... why that#? Oh sounds like a good # 2 me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Ws answered, nope too high..... 50 K? we played this game all the way to 10k (nears the amount the WS racked up in bills in less than 3 months. He said he would try. The OW agreed. I said I wanted it in cash, no checks of any sort.

The WS said he couldn't do it and the OW was foaming at the mouth..... was she rabied? Maybe....she was definitely nuts. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Bottom line is the WS said he couldn't do that to himself. It turns out he'd rather we as his family suffer with his A's bad choices and that the OW was not as generous or rich as she made herself out to be. That in reality I had more in my court than she had in hers. Yea she had a home that she squeezed out of her Xh who was very happy to get rid of her. Hm....wonder why?

So we are now recovering in many ways.

Just wanted to share my story.

L.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by AndrewA:
<strong> Vnus,

Think about this: if you sign with yoru wife and she stops making the payments...you are on the hook for that money.

Your wife has already told you that you OWE her a home. To me, that suggests that she is going to have very few qualms about sticking you with the mortgage payments down the road. Do you really want to be in that position?

Until your marriage is rock-solid and you know the A is over, it's just too risky.


Co-signing is NOT pushing you closer to a reconciliation. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes Andrew, I understand that...and frankly that episode last night scared the bejeezus out of me, it's EXACTLY what I was afraid she might be thinking.

The only thing that is making me back up and keep a wary eye on the situation is that BS/WW has said MANY things that she didn't mean, or that ran contrary to her actions, in the heat of an Angry Outburst. In more recent times, she tends to apologize quickly rather than hold it over my head, so she's made some progress. And she's also said many things that are right in line with her actions in moments of calm.

I am taking a "wait & see" approach - she's called a few times today, talking as if we'll go ahead and meet with the agent and the broker on Sunday, even after I said "I'm only willing to sign if it means something."

Best case scenario is:
She privately DOES think we can work it out, but isn't ready to admit it yet. I think her post on the other BBS a few weeks ago and her actions since tend towards that answer. And she's said many times that she would like to work it out but just doesn't know how it would happen.
Maybe she threw all that vitriol and spite out there last night because the thought of taking me back leaves her feeling vulnerable, and she feels like she has to lash out to protect herself.
In that case, I believe perhaps she's starting the process of ending it with OM (but having a hard time doing so) and will be willing to commit by my March deadline, thinking "well if we're going to do the house I'll have to be away from OM soon, so I'll kill it slowly."

Worst case scenario:
Any glimmers of hope that we can reconcile are phony, she wants me to sign so she can take the house and move OM in, she doesn't mean anything she says when she tells me she's not in love with him and he's irrelevant and he's 2000 miles away so what can happen blah blah blah...and all of this is a cold & calculated attempt to screw me over.

I suppose either one is possible, I wouldn't put option #2 past her necessarily, she can be a nasty b1tcH when she wants to be, but...

Honestly, since my name will be primary if we go through with this, and she commits to no OM and rebuilding but then backs out later, I will take the house if she tries anything underhanded, get myself a few roommates to pay for it, and kick her out.

I'm sure she'll want some sort of legally binding agreement if we go through with this, and I won't settle for anything that has the potential of screwing me over.

UPDATE:

This time my update is personal, and not taking some random phone call or email out of context and micro-analyzing it! Proud of me? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Anyway...

This whole discussion re: the house and her A.O. last night has got me thinking.
I'm starting to feel my radar turning back on. I don't know - something about all of this, and writing the first draft of what may be my Plan B letter, has got me thinking...

What if she is truly scamming me?

I have setup a pattern of helping her out - I pay for dinners/drinks out, I covered my half of rent and bills even when I didn't live in the apartment, I'm paying off the $1100 lease termination fee, I helped her pay for the hotel she's in with Mom right now, she comes to my house to do laundry and stay the night when she has a long drive, I did most of the labor to move her out of the apartment, I'm storing a bunch of her stuff in my roommate's garage, etc.etc.etc.

All of this out of guilt for my actions.

To be fair, she has helped me too - I've obviously been short on cash from time to time because of all the extra outflow of money, and she was happy to stick some $$ in my bank account to help me out.

What if this is all a scam to take advantage of me until OM moves back here? I have no evidence that he IS moving back, but she's mentioned it as a remote possibility from time to time, and if that R is heavier and more involved than she lets on, I can see where they would both want it...
Or at least to use me until she's totally on her own and THEN dump me completely.


But I don't know - she really truly seems to enjoy our time together, and gets emotional when she talks about us, and does and says other things that make me think she still loves me and a part of her sincerely wants to work things out...maybe I'm just being ultra-paranoid today.

One other thing I discovered today:
In mid-November she told me one night, out of the blue, that she hadn't talked to OM in a few days because they'd had an argument and she was thinking of not going to see him for Thanksgiving. She went anyway after they "made up."
But - I have proof that she didn't talk to him during the time she claimed, not on her cell phone at least, and she's not shy about using it to talk to him even though I can see the bill and I even still pay it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So - she does tell me the truth about him sometimes.

I've got to try and figure out how to get more information than I'm getting.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 04:16 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

OK, replying myself to bump and to say ...

After talking to my IC tonight, I feel better about the notion that I'm not being scammed by BS/WW, that this whole thing is NOT an elaborate charade to get me to support her only to be crushed in preference to OM.

He is close friends with her IC, and they have swapped notes (by our permission)...

Her IC says she is "willing to give me a chance provided I make changes."
My feeling is - even though she has misled her IC to a degree, she also was willing to come clean to him that she is giving me a 2nd chance at some point in the future when she feels I am better.

And my IC seems to think that if she was so seriously sociopathic that she is capable of orchestrating this elaborate ruse simply to get me to financially and emotionally support her, and that the minute she's done getting what she wants she'll dump me in favor of OM, that I would have seen signs of this over the 8 years we have been together.

So...I'm backing off the paranoia expressed in my previous post.

I talked to BS/WW an hour ago, just before she went to see her IC - I should be hearing from her soon, when she gets back to her place and calls. We'll see how the discussion re: "buying the house" goes.

Honestly, I'm not so interested in actually buying a house (although I'm intrigued considering this would be my first, and I have never thought I was able to) as I am in gauging her willingness to discard OM and start rebuilding.

Plan B letter is still drafted, just in case I need it in the next few months.

On the subject of my IC and getting down to why I was a serial cheater, I'm posting a new thread to see what everyone thinks. It's time I told my story.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 09:39 PM: Message edited by: VnusMars ]</small>

VM:

Mostly, I think you're going 2 be okay over the long haul. You'll flop around a bit in the meantime, kinda like I did for the first 2ple years, but you'll stabilize even2ally.

Partly, though, I feel like I'm blowing smoke, or maybe it's just chunks, when I post 2 you. Can't 2uite put my finger on it. I'm going 2 go back 2 lurking for a while. Please don't take it personally. Something I've got 2 figure out.

-ol' 2long