</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm feeling confident as ever. Now once I get to where you are separated (mine will be plan B), I'm almost positive that I will waver.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Native, not sure what you mean?

I don't feel comfortable giving advice, per se, but I'll tell you this -- maybe it'll help somehow...
It was early March 04 that I had my proof of the EA/PA and confronted her (and she denied the PA part for while longer), and it was a full seven months before she moved out. I don't remember Spring, Summer, or Fall. It's all one huge blur. Partly my screw-ups, partly an A that wouldn't die, and the rest I blame on some of her character weaknesses, SOME level of depression, etc. etc. etc.
I think it was around May when she first blurted out "I think I need to leave." I'll admit that I was in pure panic mode (but not like I acted that way with her) trying desperately to somehow keep her from leaving, and several times over the summer I thought we were going to be ok. But I knew in my heart that if she did end up leaving, she would never come back.
When I say "keep her from leaving," I mean "strategy-wise" -- I always told her that I could not stop her from leaving, and it was her choice.

One of the biggest mistakes (and regrets) was going to the wrong MC. From day one he made her feel that separation was a viable option. I questioned him on it, and he snowed me with the "I want to make her feel safe with me" stuff. There's merit to that, but seems to me if you're trying to save a marriage, you have to take a LITTLE bit of the emphasis off of SEPARATING, doncha think?! He also said she didn't talk like a woman who wanted a divorce. That was the last piece of good news I heard from him, after which he proceeded to help blow up our marriage.
Bottom line: be wary of MC's.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My WW is also prideful and stubborn. She's hot and she KNOWS it, which is why she can go to the clubs and get the attention of any guy she wants. Actually told me that she gets lots of attention when she's out!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds familiar! My WW is one beautiful woman also, and hey! why not add VERY FLIRTATIOUS into the mix? Toss in some low self-esteem, a little MLC/depression (the early stages of which she created a new --uh, even better-- body for herself) and things get out of hand, I guess...

And for the record, although I may be sounding disrespectful to my WW, I don't mean to -- I've loved her for 23+ years and still love her more than anything on this planet.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMHO, I think you should put on the separated plan A game for as long as you can hold out. Once your ready nail her with Plan B, easy enough since she's already out of the house. Let her start missing your strength, even if it's a game she doesn't need to know it right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really think I have no choice, if I want her back. I suppose this could go on for a LONG time if I let it.
The big problem will be when I feel I can't go any longer (I have needs, too, and I'm pretty good at neglecting them) --- I have absolutely NO faith in Plan B for my WW.

I gotta stop rambling, and hit the gym.... I'm hoping I have to fight with that hot blonde to get to the pec machine <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks again Native... and as my Dad always says (doesn't do much good, but he likes saying it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ): "Hang in there!"

tqt,

I meant that right now I feel confident in my Plan A and my newfound walk with God. That being said if/when I have to move to Plan B (her moving into an appt). I'm sure I will waver, question myself, whatever you want to call it, thats what I meant.

One of the biggest mistakes (and regrets) was going to the wrong MC. From day one he made her feel that separation was a viable option. I questioned him on it, and he snowed me with the "I want to make her feel safe with me" stuff.

I agree that you have to know where the MC stands. I made the comment to my MC/IC this week that I assumed that he was pro-marriage, he shook his head yes. In the beginning of the MC/IC the Doc. was also trying to make it "safe" for WW to stay at home and not go out. I think I have finally broken through to the Doc. that it's not a problem of feeling "safe". I was/am a good husband, she is choosing this party life. Doc. is now seeing this also, based on her actions and lies.

Don't you just hate MLC's, I mean come on, it's a fact of life that you get old, get over it and be a man/woman about it!!

I really think I have no choice, if I want her back. I suppose this could go on for a LONG time if I let it.

I've come to the same conclusion that now I'm just enabling her. So I have given myself a deadline for Plan A. Sounds like you MIGHT want to start thinking the same thing.

Even though I'm a newbie also I try to help/post to anyone that I can. Of course, what I say is only MVHO. And I never proclaim to be a marriage counselor, I just call them how I see it. Most people like suggestions or support, so feel free to post away.

Prayers for you tqt, Native.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong>Another thing I have going against me is her pride and stubborness. Sure, everyone has it, but she's pretty much off the charts. For her to come back, regardless of how much she may eventually want to, will be a step of massive proportions for her. And that scares me, if for no other reason than that in itself may make this ordeal stretch on for a long, long time... and I'm wearing down, I think.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something that I think about constantly regarding my WW. She is as stubborn as they come. If you told her she was unable to accomplish something, she would work twice as hard just to prove you wrong. She is also very pampered and spoiled. She was an only child for 5 years of her life, and even told me that as an infant, if she was put down, she would cry until someone picked her back up!

I know exactly what kind of person you are dealing with. I fear that she won't try to reconcile our marriage, even if she wanted to inside, just because she told me that she wanted a divorce, and she has to stick to her guns...

Stubborn as a mule....


TM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TravellinMan:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong>Another thing I have going against me is her pride and stubborness. Sure, everyone has it, but she's pretty much off the charts. For her to come back, regardless of how much she may eventually want to, will be a step of massive proportions for her. And that scares me, if for no other reason than that in itself may make this ordeal stretch on for a long, long time... and I'm wearing down, I think.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is something that I think about constantly regarding my WW. She is as stubborn as they come. If you told her she was unable to accomplish something, she would work twice as hard just to prove you wrong. She is also very pampered and spoiled. She was an only child for 5 years of her life, and even told me that as an infant, if she was put down, she would cry until someone picked her back up!

I know exactly what kind of person you are dealing with. I fear that she won't try to reconcile our marriage, even if she wanted to inside, just because she told me that she wanted a divorce, and she has to stick to her guns...

Stubborn as a mule....


TM </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are there any wise folks out there with some insight specific to the above?
What can we BS's do about the pride and stubborness that may, eventually, be the only REAL thing that keeps a WS from coming back?

I don't know your religious convictions tqt. My WW is the same as yours. All I can say is "Pride cometh befor the fall". Pray if it is your way. Pray, pray and pray some more. Eventually what our WW sow into their lives they will eventually reap.

I have hope for you and me and the rest of the BS's here! Native

Thanks Native,
Your words of encouragement really do help.
The range of emotions I feel from minute to minute amaze me -- and drain me.
And weekends are the worst -- more time to think is part of it, I guess.


I suppose (hope!) what/how I feel is "normal," and I try not to forget that...


From minute to minute, hour to hour, day to day:


complete hopelessness

frustration

why am I doing this?!?

I AM getting her BACK, no matter WHAT it takes

a few short minutes of calm (probably survival)

intense loneliness

anger, but not all that much (where's my anger??)

24 years of my past has become meaningless, my future is a big black hole, and the present SUCKS

I deserve better! Wake up! This is B.S.!

intense feelings of rejection and abandonment

whatever happens, happens, and I can deal with it

general confusion

I didn't get what I needed out of the M anyway!

a gnawing emptiness, and a sickening feeling in my stomach

MISSING HER LIKE HELL


and then all over again...


And to answer your question, Native, I'm not necessarily proud to say that my religious convictions are not well-defined.
But I can tell you this: I've prayed more in the last 10 months than all the other years of my life combined.

"Pride cometh before the fall."
Yes... and I believe I've read that, according to the bible, Pride is the greatest sin.
(Not to make light of it, but, I might vote to rearrange the order just a bit -- I'm feeling like adultery oughta be up on top of the list <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> )

tqt,

You are indeed "normal" you have inner strength, character, and moral convictions. That is why you are the BS and not the WS.

I have all the same emotions/thoughts that you do. Weekends are also hard for me b/c that is when my WW goes out to the clubs.

I can tell you that I find great strength in knowing that God is in CONTROL of my life and my path. Just about 30 min. ago my WW left for work, with her club bag packed and her change of clothes. It killed me to see it, and for 1 min. there I contemplated following her again. Then I snapped out of it and said it doesn't matter what she does b/c I already know what she has done. So why feel bad, all I can do is trust in God that he is making me into the man that I should be.

Since you are already separated you don't have to be exposed to the direct knowledge of what you W is doing, take comfort in that. You have to deal with what you "think" she is doing. Well start thinking that she is miserable... she shows that too you everytime she sees you! Believe that she will come back! Have faith!

Native

Great list tqt, that just about says it all.

have to agree with Native here to, my W is not here, and it may actually be easier that shes not, never looked at it like that.

And... everything we do, don't do... everything and everyone we see... seems to be of significance as we go through this...

This evening...on the way home from the gym, I stopped for a beer (isn't that what you're supposed to do? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )
Decided to check out a pretty nice place I (ie. WE -- me/WW -- haven't been to for a long time), and I'm sitting there at the bar... three guys are sitting next to me, all about 50 years old... made me at 45 feel like a youngster <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ...
and I'm minding my own business... of COURSE thinking about my predicament... and thinking how strange it is that my friend, partner, companion, lover... my wife... isn't with me.

then I hear one of these guys say something about his wife being bored...

my radar kicks in... and for the next 20 minutes I listen to these 3 guys b_i_t_c_h_i_n_g about their wives.

I'm not one to eavesdrop, and I'm not one to interrupt someone's conversation... but I just could NOT take it any longer.
So... I got up off my barstool, walked over a few steps to these guys, and kind of got them in a huddle... and said "I'm sorry, I'm not one who normally eavesdrops, and I'm not one who normally interrupts a conversation, but, when your wife tells you she's bored --- listen to her."

All three of 'em just kinda stared at me... and I left.

I'm done.

I deserve better. I have HUGE amounts of love, and everything that goes with it, to give to someone who deserves it.

So what if I've wasted 24 of my 45 years.
It's called "stop loss." There are too many wonderful, beautiful-in-every-way women out there that can and will make me a happier.

I dedicated my life to a woman who gives NOTHING in return.

I need to start healing, and move on with my life. The 2nd half HAS to be so much better than the 1st.

I'll get over her someday, right??

tqt....what happened between Sat and today? I so understand your emotional rollercoaster, and wish I could say things get better. I am hopeful for you and myself that they will, but I have come to realize that it takes a lot of time. Sometimes more than we can emotionally invest in. I am doing a seperated Plan A as well, at least I think I am.
Not sure if NC is in place. Anyone, the my WH like you WW seems to like to do things to bring me down. It is as if they are so unhappy that they want you to be miserable too. I think it has to do with their guilt. It is often difficult for them to believe that someone can still love them after what they have done. I don't think they feel worthy. If someone has little self value they certainly don't have a lot of energy to put into improving things. It is easier to cop out. Depression has a lot to do with what our spouses are going through. Depressed people have no hope, can't enjoy life, and think the answer is an OP. It isn't but they may never understand that. Please check in a tell me why you are giving up.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm done. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Been there, tried to do that, got the t-shirt so I remembered that quitting wasn't an option for me. AND, I don't see that in you, either. I see frustration, hurt, pain, and fear.

Fear that: What if you continue to invest your time/love/energy in your WW, and she never "comes to her senses?" What if you spend the next how much longer time doing this because right now there doesn't seem to be an end in sight? What if there is something out there right now that will make you FEEL GOOD, and you are missing it, feeling bad, with no guarantee of return on your investment?

What if what if what if can become overwhelming. Disheartening. What if can make you crazy!

Personally, I would change my perspective when I felt like quitting. OK, so the odds seem insurmountable, the pain unbearable, the timeframe unreasonable! What to do?????

For starters, what's the rush? You have half your life left. Why not give this thing the time to play out and see what it looks like when it is over? No regrets.

Second, being at your age, you know that the BESTEST things in life are the ones that you have to wait and work for. IMO, you are surrounded on these boards by success stories of JUST THAT happening.

And, of course, third ~ you are not being held back from happiness right now. Your WW just cannot be included in it right now. I bet there are plenty of things you can work on/learn, while she has stepped out on your life. Read some relationship books, not just affair books. I started with "Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars," and am working my way up from there. Find something you like to do and do it often. Golf? Paint? Garden? Piano? Friends? Sports? Go to games? Unlimited "guys" nights for poker at your place!!! Use your humor, your mind, your intelligence, your heart.

Mostly, throw the notion that your WW is preventing you from finding happiness. That is her mentality towards you right now ~ we call it the FOG.

Love ya! Hang in there! You can do this!

Spidey

Hi Waiting,

Thanks for checking in on me and my situation.

I feel pathetic. Last night I was resigned to the fact that not only is it hopeless, but I don't even WANT her back.
As of this morning, I can't deny it: I'm back in the game. I think...

I just do NOT know how to do a "Separated Plan A." My newest approach has been to try to be more proactive, call her/email her more often, and, (I was hoping) figure out a way to actually SEE her more often. I'm so afraid that the longer we go without any contact with each other, the more comfortable she'll be in her new life, and whatever we have left between us will naturally start fading away.

Anyway, what happened was this: I called her last evening, just to have a friendly chat. She was actually pretty nice and friendly. To make a long story short, she told me she was going to a (NBA game) this week. I asked with whom, she evaded the question, and I asked a second time (nicely, nonchalantly), and she said "you'll be mad if I tell you." I really haven't had a solid feeling for what the status of the A is, so this hit me kinda hard, I guess. I didn't know how to handle it, so I just said something like "well, with everything I've just been saying to you, and you telling me that your continuing your A with this guy, I'm hanging up now." She said "ok, bye" and we both quickly hung up.

Yes, I'm sure I broke every rule in the "Separated Plan A" rule book.
I don't know if "Plan A" (or Plan B) even FITS in my case, let alone how to do it if it DOES fit.


It's like she intentionally told me about this game she was going to, so she could hurt me (like you said about your WH).

That's when I made my so-called decision to call it QUITS and begin trying to wipe her out of my life forever. (After venting all by myself and yelling out some VERY nasty names for her/at her)


What the !&*% is she doing??
Why hasn't she filed for D... why hasn't she taken any steps in that direction for the last 2-1/2 months, after moving out??
Is this just run-of-the-mill classic cake-eating??
Is she still in a dense fog??
Has she thought this through, and looked at the future at ALL?!?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is as if they are so unhappy that they want you to be miserable too.

Depressed people have no hope, can't enjoy life, and think the answer is an OP.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She at least pretends to be happy. (she said on the phone last evening that she "likes being alone.")

But 3 weeks ago in another phone conversation she said, in tears: "I'm just not happy."

Did she become happy in the last three weeks? I doubt it... I hope not...

Hi Spidey...

I read your post about 5 times <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Are you a motivational speaker by trade, by any chance? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I see frustration, hurt, pain, and fear.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You got it, on all four counts.
In last night's phone conversation, I stuck my neck out (er, my heart) a little -- more than I should have, but I was kinda testing the waters. And she got out her butcher's knife and managed to find a little chunk of my heart that she hasn't hit yet. It hurt like hell.
That's where my Quit Proclamation came from.

And you are correct -- I'm not a quitter. Thanks for the vote of confidence!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For starters, what's the rush? You have half your life left. Why not give this thing the time to play out and see what it looks like when it is over? No regrets. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That makes sense to me. BUT, I have trouble with it for a couple reasons...

I'm someone who needs to fix things that are broken, and I HATE unfinished business. That just makes this whole thing more frustrating, that's all.

The bigger problem I'm having is that I feel that every day I should be doing SOMETHING to make progress (with WW).
It feels urgent.
It feels like time is of the essence.
She is drifting away... a little further away... every day...
Am I thinking wrong about this?

First off, there is no right or wrong. There is what works and what doesn't work, IMO.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm someone who needs to fix things that are broken, and I HATE unfinished business. That just makes this whole thing more frustrating, that's all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are a man. That is what you do. Fix things. Your feelings are perfectly natural. Now, since you cannot "fix" your WW, you need to channel that energy into SOMEthing, or you will indeed feel like a rat running to nowhere in some horrid wheel-of-torture.

This is your "Wonderful Learning Opportunity" (our MC used to say that ALL THE TIME, drove me NUTS!) to channel your intense feelings and energy.

I understand your urgency. I had the SAME urgency. Then, I got tired of running in my wheel. And it was just about the 2-2 1/2 month mark, about where you are at. First off, my advice is to not initiate contact with your WW. Unless it is a MUST (ie, signing tax forms, legal documents, urgent financial matters, etc.).

See, IMO, your WW senses your need to "fix" her, your M, your life in general. She knows you. She knows, to some extent, your "next move." What worked for me, and it wasn't really on purpose, was to create curiosity on the WS side.

I say I didn't do it on purpose. What I did on purpose, was begin fixing ME. Making myself the best darn partner possible, preparing for either 1)FWH to come back to the M and attempt recovery, or 2)giving myself the best possible chance of success in my NEXT relationship, if FWH decided to follow-through on his threats of D.

That was my mindset. Your WW has made her position very clear, insofar as that she chooses not to be with you right now. She has no clue what she is doing. BUT, each time she hears from you, experiences you trying to "fix" her, she KNOWS that she doesnt' want to be around for THAT. Am I making sense to you?

My FWH RAN from me, until I stopped chasing. Like one day, he looked over his shoulder to see how close behind him I was, and he saw me in the distance, not paying any attention to him. He stopped running, and watched me for a LONG time. Then, he began initiating contact for not URGENT matters. Then he invited me to lunch. Funny, even though he invited me to that first lunch, he tried to chase me away.

I made an off-hand comment when he picked me up, as he was scratching some lottery tickets, I said, "Did we win anything?" All through lunch, he was so cold to me. Then, right when the food got to the table, he told me again that he wanted a D. I freaked. WHY invite me to a public place and tell me that? WTH?

Later, I found out that my commnet of "Did we win anything?" sounded to HIM that I said, "I have hope for our M still." And he didn't want me to have "false hope," so he brought up the ultimate hope-killer - the D word.

At that point, I was done. I told him that he could not control me, any more than I could control him. If I wanted to have hope for our M, that was my business and he had no right to try and "scare" me out of it. He actually heard that, and didn't use the D word to try and control me after that. Small miracle.

Anyway, once she looks over at you (figuretively), and sees you not chasing or trying to "fix," you will peak her curiosity. Her feelings for you are not gone, IMO. They are just stashed away, under a lot of justification, rationalization, and guilt. She must work through this on her own, to some extent. The best thing you can do for her is give her the space she has requested. When you are contacting her, she tries to FORCE herself to forget about you. When you DON'T contact her, she can't help but thinking about you.

Reverse psychology? Human nature? Whatever, it works. IMO, you are in a great place right now to test out my theory. It can turn around in a week, in two weeks. You won't know till it happens, but don't give up your own hope. And find a gameplan and stick to it. Consistency and a slow and steady pace will win this marathon. Remember, journey, not a destination. Marathon, not a sprint.

Spidey

Thanks Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, my advice is to not initiate contact with your WW. Unless it is a MUST</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya know what?! When I think about it, I can't really do it any other way. Being separated, any contact with her CANNOT be LB's, and CANNOT be all that friendly and loving either, what with her A still going on, correct? Only remaining option is: no contact.

So then my last interaction with her will have been a somewhat friendly phone conversation, ended with "well, with everything I've just been saying to you, and you telling me that you're continuing your A with this guy, I'm hanging up now."

Do you think that's an OK way to leave things, as I begin NC with her?

And Christmas is just days away... I'm not sure what to do about it. Her mother/stepfather live about 2 miles from my parents, so we'll both be making the trip up there (separately, of course) to our hometown, and celebrating Christmas 3-minutes away from each other...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And he didn't want me to have "false hope," so he brought up the ultimate hope-killer - the D word.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure I understand why they (WS) care about BS having hope, or false hope... why all of a sudden do they care what the BS thinks, or feels?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">once she looks over at you (figuretively), and sees you not chasing or trying to "fix," you will peak her curiosity. Her feelings for you are not gone, IMO. They are just stashed away, under a lot of justification, rationalization, and guilt. She must work through this on her own, to some extent. The best thing you can do for her is give her the space she has requested.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She may become curious, but she's not going to end the A on her own. And even if the A starts to die a natural death, she'll still be working overtime to convince herself that she made the right decision by leaving.

I AM hopeful, but it's not easy...

tqt,

I'm sorry to hear about your recent events! However I truly believe that no contact initiated by you will get you WW to see what she is missing. I think that when she sees you not "chasing her" she will wonder what you up to. I agree with Spidey completely. I think I'm heading in that same direction in my sitch.

One thing that was revealed to me this week. I told my MIL that I can't have hope, that I don't want to be hurt again by getting my hopes smashed. But that I was torn because I want to have faith in my God, but hope and faith are intertwined.

My MIL in her Godly wisdome said... "Don't have hope/faith in WW, she is human. She will fail. Have faith/hope in God as he will never fail". This statement has helped me to see the futility in hoping for my wife or mankind in general. See where I'm going?

Native.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My MIL in her Godly wisdome said... "Don't have hope/faith in WW, she is human. She will fail. Have faith/hope in God as he will never fail". This statement has helped me to see the futility in hoping for my wife or mankind in general. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Native,
Can we swap MIL's for a couple weeks or so? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I told my MIL that I haven't given up on WW yet.

MIL told me "I could never talk to her (WW); she would always get mad if I tried to talk to her about anything important. It's always been that way."

MIL also said, in a conversation that was somewhat-but-not-directly related to The Situation: "Well, honesty and trust only go so far in a marriage."
YIKES! This is the woman that raised my wife!!

MIL was pretty wounded by her husband (WW's father), and they went thru a nasty divorce. That's where her outlook on marriage comes from. Then she expended a lot of energy teaching her daughter (WW) that she needed to be independent and not count on a man for anything. Hey, look MIL, it worked! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

tqt...You and I are in the same boat. All I can say is Spyder's response applies to us both.
I don't think how you handled the situation was all that bad. You hung up before the anger made you say hurtful things. I am not sure about contacting her again to reinforce your boundary of NC is in order or not. Maybe Spyder has some insight on that. When my WH pulls stuff on me I am getting better at saying "that is hurtful to me", rather than getting mean and saying "your such an a**". sometimes I think it sinks in sometimeit does not. It is true that when you do your own thing it makes them perk up and take notice. however the "comeherecomeherecomere...goawaygoawaygoaway" game gets old fast. I will give you wife credit for her honesty. She could have lied or not said anything about the NBA game. MY WH prefers the deception route and gets angry when I find out things by being "snoopy".
right now I am trying to get my screen saver to say "GO DARK, GO VERY VERY DARK" as a mental reminder to myself and to give me strength. It is so easy to want to reach out to the person you love....just remember before you do it you might not get the reponse you were looking for and you might be better off not doing it. My WH also says he likes being alone, because it is quiet and he has less "stuff" to deal with (keep in mind that we have 2 daughters). I like the thought that we should invest in ourselves to the point that we will either have a better marriage after a recovery or a better future relationship with another if no recovery occurs.

the emotional pain sucks...the only help is knowing how many others are going through the exact same thing. I will be thinking about you.

Thanks WWH,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will give your wife credit for her honesty. She could have lied or not said anything about the NBA game.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please don't give her too much credit -- she hasn't been real strong in the honesty department lately <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
What I don't understand is if she supposedly "doesn't want to hurt me" then why mention it at all?
There was no reason she had to say anything about it.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I like the thought that we should invest in ourselves to the point that we will either have a better marriage after a recovery or a better future relationship with another if no recovery occurs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep... and it's almost like there's no other choice in the matter anyway!
But, am I the only one who finds it somehow harder to invest in myself, being in the midst of this stuff? If I were 100% sure my wife wasn't coming back, I'd be going about things differently. Like buying that boat, for example <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">the only help is knowing how many others are going through the exact same thing. I will be thinking about you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree... and thanks for your thoughts, WWH. I will be returning the favor <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />