WW moved out 10/4/04.
Status of her/OM's A unknown for sure, but at least recently still active.

3 weeks ago she said to me in tears: "I'm just not happy."
She has also said "Nothing I've done can be undone" and "Once you leave you can never go back, right?"


Until 2 days ago, we haven't had any contact in a week. 2 days ago I called her and asked her to dinner.
She seemed -- I think -- happy to hear from me, and agreed pretty much right away to meet for dinner.
I even suggested I pick her up (haven't been to her apartment ever), and she said "well, you'll never be able to find it." ie. she didn't say no, until she had more time to think about it. Then it was obvious she wasn't comfortable with me going to her place, and I didn't push it.

Bottom line: It sounded like she was looking forward to meeting for dinner. She was very receptive, at least.

SO, we met for dinner last night.
I was cheerful, etc. etc...
I could tell she was in a bad mood from the start. Within 10 minutes (smalltalk) she became her old WW-self again -- sarcastic, mean, etc.
Got worse, then soon her eyes started welling up, eventually tears down her face.
All in the midst of her sarcasm, anger, etc.
She was flat-out miserable and depressed and sarcastic and angry all at the same time.
This continued for the next what-seemed-like-forever (an hour?), up to the point of walking her to her car.
I felt so bad for her, and the last thing I said to her was "Everything's going to be ok."
She replied: "Oh yeah?!" (but the way she said it, it was more like "How?!")

In summary: since she moved out to find herself/start her new life/continue her A, she hasn't resolved ANYthing that I can tell.

THEN last night, after getting back to her place, she called me at home, and left this message:
"I'm sorry for the way I acted tonight. And I'm sorry I've hurt you -- I think that's what makes me act that way."


(I'm trying to figure out how acting nasty and cruel (thru her tears) is a normal response to being sorry for hurting me(???))


I emailed her this morning, and here's how our email conversation has gone so far:


Me: Thanks for having dinner with me last night. It was good to see you!

WW: It was nice to see you, but frankly painful too.

Me: I'm not sure what you mean -- painful in what way?

WW: It is hard to see you and see the hope in your face that I do not feel. Maybe I am reading this incorrectly.


Anyone... I'm obviously not feeling good about what she's said.
Any takers on what might actually be going on here, or should I take everything at face value, at this point??!?

How should I respond to her last comment: "It is hard to see you and see the hope in your face that I do not feel. Maybe I am reading this incorrectly."

Thanks for your insight -- I'll even take random guesses at this point.

<small>[ December 09, 2004, 04:47 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>tqt: ...In summary: since she moved out to find herself/start her new life/continue her A, she hasn't resolved ANYthing that I can tell.

THEN last night, after getting back to her place, she called me at home, and left this message:
"I'm sorry for the way I acted tonight. And I'm sorry I've hurt you -- I think that's what makes me act that way."


(I'm trying to figure out how acting nasty and cruel (thru her tears) is a normal response to being sorry for hurting me(???))</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: It isn't normal and the conflict of responses really makes the sane cringe doncha think? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> When my WS used to babble like this I used to initially try to ally his feelings and reason with him. This was a worthless effort at the time. So eventually I learned to respond with something more like "your sorry you hurt me but you keep on doing it. That confuses me, is that what 'we' need to do to you?" Notice the 'we' in my response. I figured if he was going to be that stupid, might as well let others know (support group, etc.).


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>tqt: I emailed her this morning, and here's how our email conversation has gone so far:


Me: Thanks for having dinner with me last night. It was good to see you!

WW: It was nice to see you, but frankly painful too.(???))</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Reverse babble response time - 'yep, pretty painful for me to. let's say next time we go dutch.'


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>tqt: Me: I'm not sure what you mean -- painful in what way?

WW: It is hard to see you and see the hope in your face that I do not feel. Maybe I am reading this incorrectly.(???))</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid: Suggested response - 'hope in my face? Oh sorry for that, it was because your face looked kinda twisted, but know I know why. Sorry if you read it incorrectly. '

This kind of interaction will continue to occur as long as she is in this mode. You have to decide whether you want to deal with her in his phase or not.


It really isn't healthy for a BS to subject themselves to people with dual personalities. I went so far as to stop the WS at the door and ask which character was he before I allowed him in our home or even carried a conversation with him. LOL!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

Thanks L <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm pretty much a "part-time poster" because my situation seems so complicated (hopeless, too?). BUT, you've helped me several times in the recent past, and I so much appreciate it!

It's good to hear that she's still most probably in outer space somewhere. I can't figure out why she agreed to meet for dinner (that in itself was pretty huge, I think), and then fall apart once she got there.

As far as a response to her last email goes ("It is hard to see you and see the hope in your face that I do not feel. Maybe I am reading this incorrectly."), I also appreciate your wit and your wisdom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Here's my intended response, at any rate, in the spirit that you suggest...

"Hope in my face? Maybe it was because the food was taking so long! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I TOLD you we should've gone somewhere else! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> "

and yes, it took forever for our meal to be served, which only made WW all the crankier, and gave me a couple more opp's to escape to the men's room...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This kind of interaction will continue to occur as long as she is in this mode. You have to decide whether you want to deal with her in his phase or not.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I SWEAR she's looking for someone (me, by default) to give her a printed, itemized list of "How to Undo Everything and Go Back to Your Marriage." Said another way: is it even remotely possible that, contrary to every other bit of tried & true logic out there, she WANTS me to be more... assertive? ... telling/showing her exactly how and why she can and should come back home?

She doesn't know up from down right now and will be mad at any help whether genuine or not.

That is why you are not safe stepping in her path. That is why contact with her leaves you drained.

But you feel the need to go back for more. One day you won't feel that need. Hope it's not when you are knocked so far down that you can't get up. Hence the 2x4's from us here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We don't want you to get in that predicament. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

L.

tqt,

I feel for you man, for we all know how painful this garbage can be.

It does sound like she's still fogged. I think in my own sitch that I'm going to be moving into a Plan B with WW out in an appt. My WW is also in a finding herself/what she wants mode.

One thing I see, and Orchid or anyone else feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, is that you WW in her "finding myself mode" is truly miserable. I think that is very positive.

IMHO I would suggest since your not in a Plan B right now to make an effort to show her that your doing really good. Put on the Plan A game face, your strong, taking care of yourself, and will be a better person out of this. That way she sees what she is missing out on by "finding herself".

My thoughts,
Native

I guess my only comment is to keep the hope on your face. Downplay it to protect yourself, but if you want her back, she needs to know you're hopeful.
Word of warning: playing the hopeful role can be contagious and if she DOES come around and adopts your hope for herself, you might find your own hope waning. If so, don't panic-- seems to be normal- when one is strong the other is not.
Most good relatioships work that way. But it might not happen, and goodness, if yo'ure both hopeful, then half the battle is already won.
In any case, I wanted to say that my H has put up with a lot of basket case bi-polarish behavior from me, and I love him all the more for it. Sometimes if I ask him if he wants to watch a movie or something he says "Are you going to be nice to me?" and I usually say "I'll try. or I think I can handle that." like it's a joke, but I think we both need to know what mode I'm operating in.
But you stll need to be clear about it if she crosses a line of yours. If you have said "Let's have a good time" and she's being weird, then you need to ask her "what's up, I thought we were going to just have a good time" or something to convey that you noticed and you aren't happy about what she's doing.
At some point the coupole has to agree what koind of malarchy feeling sorry for one's self will be tolerated and to what extent. Sounds like your wife loves you, but is cluelss and maybe spoiled. (?) I don't mean that offensively. HOpe I don't get myself into trouble here, but I'm pampered myself, so I can relate, and let me tell you: pampered women are sometimes the last to get their acts together, but I think they are worth their age in diamonds because they tend to understand taking and giving, and they spoil right back to keep the ball rolling. At least a wise spoiled woman will.
NOt that spoiling is good, but cherishing behaviors are.
At least this is where I'm coming from!
Give her time, and take care yourself.
LC

Thanks Native... there's something sorta sick about the old "misery loves company" thing....!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">your WW in her "finding myself mode" is truly miserable. I think that is very positive.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep... it's almost as if her misery is the only positive thing I have left to go on.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">since your not in a Plan B right now to make an effort to show her that your doing really good. Put on the Plan A game face, your strong, taking care of yourself, and will be a better person out of this. That way she sees what she is missing out on by "finding herself".</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm fairly sure that I'm doing that -- part of it is for real, and of course part of it is an act -- and it seems to make her REALLY angry that life (my life) goes on without her.

I did try a Plan B, of sorts, right after she moved out, and I felt it backfiring. So I'm back in Plan A (again, as much as I can be with very little contact).

She's had SO MUCH TIME to end everything once and for all. But, she hasn't.
Lots of theories thrown at me about that, both from people who'd rather see me "move on," and from others who better understand where I'm coming from.... yep... all of it sucks. It's a weird combination of destroying me and making me a stronger, better person all at the same time........

Thanks for your thoughts, Native... I'll try to catch up with your situation too.

tqt:I'm fairly sure that I'm doing that -- part of it is for real, and of course part of it is an act -- and it seems to make her REALLY angry that life (my life) goes on without her.

Sound like she's seeing a better you, and is probably jealous, but I'm a newbie so maybe not. I hope it is at least.

I think she is seeing that she is probably losing a good thing in you. And has a lot of guilt/pain. As another MBer said, for the WS it seems as if they're having the time of their life when in actuality inside they have turmoil. Which is evidence in you WW.

Keep up with your game plan, I'm hoping for you.
Native.

Orchid, Native, lucycakes...

I'm going to bed now, and as tired as I am, probably not sleep all that well... but I have a lot of wisdom, advice, and comforting thoughts to digest while I toss and turn...

THANKS to you all, and I'll hopefully have more profound things to say in the morning <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Parting thought: This is one amazing place, with a lot of amazing people.

Well tqt,

It sadly seems that we both have a lot in common <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Although it is me that has 'moved out' (long story) my wife still has to find excuses it seems to see me at least once a week. When she does it is pretty much as you have described, anger, bitterness and so on. I am struggling to get a good Plan A in place but with little contact it is hard.

I think Orchids 'babble talk' is excellent (thanks Orchid) and is certainly spot on.

My W just seemed to turn into someone else overnight and has been like this ever since. It all came totally out of the blue and she refuses to try to sort things out and so on. This hit me harder than the 'I don't love you anymore bit' not wanting to fix things?

You must feel as I do that 'Am I fooling myself here and it is over?' I try not to think that way too much as the person my W has turned into is not the lovely W I have loved for thirteen years and needs my help. But being knocked down constantly, people (with good intentions) saying 'You need to move on', not sleeping or waking up dreaming about your W all the time is taking it's toll on my thinking ability. Quite honestly I don't know what to think anymore.

Things sound a little more positive for you as your W was willing to meet you for dinner. Keep up with your plan A and hopefully the 'Fog' will lift.

iloveher

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WW: It is hard to see you and see the hope in your face that I do not feel. Maybe I am reading this incorrectly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another good response:

You: I have acquired tremendous hope and a positive outlook on life - no matter what happens to me. And you know what? It's contagious!

WAT

Hi lucy,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
But you stll need to be clear about it if she crosses a line of yours. If you have said "Let's have a good time" and she's being weird, then you need to ask her "what's up, I thought we were going to just have a good time" or something to convey that you noticed and you aren't happy about what she's doing.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is more profound than you think it is. In a way, I think it describes a good part of what went wrong in our marriage to begin with. A bit too much conflict avoidance on both our parts.
And you describe what is now a constant struggle for me. With her gone, and therefore having so few opportunities to interact with her, I tend to feel like I have to take what I can get, even when any reasonable person would say "uh-uh.. unacceptable behavior... we'll try again when you're not angry, spiteful, hurtful, and downright NO fun to be around..."
So I always feel myself trying desperately to squeeze the old Plan A material in while 1) not letting her go too far out of bounds, and 2) maintaining some level of self-respect and making sure she doesn't lose any (any more?) respect for me, which is important.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like your wife loves you,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think she does love me. But she's still enshrouded in that goo-goo ga-ga fantasy @#!& with the OM. (I sense it's waining, though.. but I'm not even sure why I sense it)
I've put a great deal of thought into the subject, and have come to the conclusion that the way I feel about her is a pretty darn good combination of all the right kinds of "love" and everything that goes along with it. It even includes a decent amount of the goo-goo ga-ga stuff, which, after 24+ years together (married 21+) says a lot. I'm not perfect, and I have a lot of things to work on to become the person I'm fully capable of being, but I'll blow my own horn on this one and suggest that she has NO idea how lucky she is to have someone like me, with the depth and scope of feelings for her that I STILL have. I think she'll have a hard time finding the same thing again. OR.. just maybe... NOW she DOES recognize all that, and that's part of her problem/turmoil/guilt/regret... ?

Anyway... on the morning she left, she said (and this was out of the blue): "I love you like I should love a husband I've been with for 24 years." Hey, thanks WW!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but is cluelss and maybe spoiled. (?) I don't mean that offensively. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No offense taken, trust me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I can only surmise that she's clueless, and I KNOW that she's spoiled.
Her parents spoiled her (but not in a material sense) and I continued the tradition from the day I met her, to the day she left...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">pampered women are sometimes the last to get their acts together, but I think they are worth their age in diamonds because they tend to understand taking and giving, and they spoil right back to keep the ball rolling. At least a wise spoiled woman will. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Here's where things start to fall apart <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She does not understand taking and giving. She's been The Taker from the beginning. She doesn't really know how to give, and that includes giving of all sorts: compassion, empathy, affection, gifts....
Uh...and so... exactly HOW did I manage to fall in love -- and stay in love -- with someone like that ?!?

Hey there. Your story reminds me of mine, in that my FWH moved out to "find himself, sort out his thoughts, continue his A." I remember posting about a VERY similar dining experience. Our was a lunch, that FWH invited me to, and right when the food got there, he told me he wanted a D (again). Totally ruined my good sushi lunch! Then we argued all the way back to the house, where his car was (kids were at school, thank heavens). Then we argued in the house, forgot the windows were opened, and one of the neighbors called the cops! Very dramatic.

Anyway, my H and I have been in recovery since April 1st, 2004, and looking back on that lunch, my H has told me the same thing your WW told you: That she saw hope in you, and she began acting in a way to try and destroy that hope, which answers your question of ~ (I'm trying to figure out how acting nasty and cruel (thru her tears) is a normal response to being sorry for hurting me(???))

These WS's play such head games with themselves. In order to have their actions match up with the beliefs they have (that they are so flagrantly violating), they must change reality! No small task, I tell you. She convinces herself, my guess is, on a daily basis, that she was capable of going against her core values, because she is in love with the OM. That is her fantasy bubble that she is working very hard to maintain. Which is why I think most A's die natural deaths - that is a whole lot of energy she loses every day just to maintain a status quo.

Just do as Orchid says, smile and nod, don't let her think you are holding hope. And even if you are, you can tell her that. You can tell her that she feels the way she does, that she might not love you anymore, and you feel the way you do, that you still love her and have hope of recovering your M. Point out that you have accepted her feelings, and she shouldn't try and change yours. My H was pretty stumped when I told him that, because he thought I had been trying to change his feelings up until then. When I stopped telling him how to feel, he couldn't very well continue to tell me how to feel!

Anyway, peace to you. It is all very normal and natural, unfortunately. Take care.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WW: It is hard to see you and see the hope in your face that I do not feel. Maybe I am reading this incorrectly.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Another good response:

You: I have acquired tremendous hope and a positive outlook on life - no matter what happens to me. And you know what? It's contagious!

WAT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks WAT!
The creative genious in me came up with a Super-Hybrid-Orchid-WAT response. Guaranteed to confuse the bejesus out of her... if she's got any left...

Hi Spidey,
Thanks for your help!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">he convinces herself, my guess is, on a daily basis, that she was capable of going against her core values, because she is in love with the OM. That is her fantasy bubble that she is working very hard to maintain.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep.. but ya know what? I think she's started to figure out that her fantasy ain't all that fantastic. It's easy for me to imagine how a WS must feel when they take inventory of the damage done... and all for nothing.

tqt,

I really feel like your WW is coming around. As we all know nobody really wants to live in misery. As long as she sees a strong, confident you, I really believe she is going to gravitate towards you because she wants some of your "feel-good mojo" I just made that up btw. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by native00:
<strong> tqt,

I really feel like your WW is coming around. As we all know nobody really wants to live in misery. As long as she sees a strong, confident you, I really believe she is going to gravitate towards you because she wants some of your "feel-good mojo" I just made that up btw. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Native,
Thanks for the encouraging words. I wish I was as confident as you are!

Showing her a strong, confident me takes a lot of energy, and it's stressful -- I'm still very wounded by all this, and I'm still NOT comfortable with my new life as a single man.
So when she sees the "new me" it's partly an acting job. That will change over time, however, simply because it HAS to.

Another thing I have going against me is her pride and stubborness. Sure, everyone has it, but she's pretty much off the charts. For her to come back, regardless of how much she may eventually want to, will be a step of massive proportions for her. And that scares me, if for no other reason than that in itself may make this ordeal stretch on for a long, long time... and I'm wearing down, I think.

Sorry, I didn't say that very well.

Thanks again for your support!

tqt,

I'm still new to this also and by no means am I a veteran. However with my strong determination to play the Plan A game, and to a greater extent my renewed relationship with God. I'm feeling confident as ever. Now once I get to where you are separated (mine will be plan B), I'm almost positive that I will waver. But I trust in the Lord that he will take care of me, then I don't hurt as much.

My WW is also prideful and stubborn. She's hot and she KNOWS it, which is why she can go to the clubs and get the attention of any guy she wants. Actually told me that she gets lots of attention when she's out!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

IMHO, I think you should put on the separated plan A game for as long as you can hold out. Once your ready nail her with Plan B, easy enough since she's already out of the house. Let her start missing your strength, even if it's a game she doesn't need to know it right? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Well, my WW who just yesterday said:

"It is hard to see you and see the hope in your face that I do not feel."

sent me three very unnecessary emails today.

One was forwarding information on how to put my cell phone# on the telemarketing do-not-call list. (Uhhh, that's not at the top of my priority list right now, but gee, thanks, WW!)

Another was a funny video attachment. She said "Thought you would like this"

Another was asking if she should stop by my office to drop off a bill, that I already told her I didn't need from her.

Interesting way of going about minimizing my false hope, isn't it? Before asking her to dinner, we hadn't seen/heard hide nor hair of each other in at least a week.
Excuse my language, but... WTF?!?

She wants part of your "mojo". Maybe I'm just a glass half full kinda guy though. It seems like she is trying to find whatever reason she can to talk/see you. If you feel up to it I say go ahead so your Plan A can continue....

My 2 cts. native