tqt...you are right. That is not the kind of honesty we need about now. I really think that when our spouse hurts us intentionally they are wanting to be punished.
#1. Because they are feeling shamefull
#2. If we punish them it gives them ammunition
to throw back at us. "SEE...Your being the
same old bi#@$ you've always been...now you
know why I did what I did"

And as far as moving on to work on ourselves, I think it actually gives me strength to expect the worst. Maybe you should buy the boat...or at least go look at a few. And if things work out...hey you can go sailing together. For me I keep asking myself "What kind of role model am I being for my daughters?"
I am often on the fringe of insanity and hope, just not sure what way I will fall

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really think that when our spouse hurts us intentionally they are wanting to be punished.
#1. Because they are feeling shamefull
#2. If we punish them it gives them ammunition
to throw back at us. "SEE...Your being the
same old bi#@$ you've always been...now you
know why I did what I did"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish I knew just how calculating "they" are.
In other words, what you describe makes sense, but do they go around thinking all this stuff through all the time, planning these interactions out in advance, or... ?

These stupid games get old, don't they?
And the energy expended on BOTH sides is so huge.

(speaking of games, I'm on my way over to your thread... about the OW's address-search)

tqt, I didn't think my H would ever give up contact with OW, either. If nothing else, they were "friends," and he wasn't going to abandon his "friend."

But if you have hope for your M recovering, then keep your hope. I alwasys had hope for our M. My friends marveled at it, because my H was off in la-la land. But I believed in everything we had been through, I believed that for all those years we loved and cared for each other. And my mind and heart told me that that doesn't just get wiped away. It just gets buried.

BUT, to your WW, it feels very very real. There are good odds that your WW is NOT the exception to the rule about most WS's coming back to the M. It is a process, and as unrealistic as it seems, they do come out of the fog. Reality hurts, it is harsh. She will avoid it until she cannot anymore.

Let the OM attempt to meet all her EN's. No more making her feel wanted, no more making her feel like she has a protector looking out for her best interests. Let her seek that from OM, and see what she finds.

The nature of the A is that they are not true to each other. They are both chasing feel-good feelings. They are both instantly gratifying each other with the fantasy world feelings they have created together. Let me tell you, when one begins to pull away, or want something else, or the status-quo changes at all ~ big time trouble. It gets ugly. They are addicted.

Hang in there! This is a wonderful learning opportunity for you to make some self-improvements! You have done a great job so far. This is a time for you to learn . . . PATIENCE.

Ahhh, patience. When I began this journey, I had no patience. I was as you are, feeling I had to have a job, a mission, DO SOMETHING!

Breath in, breath out. Get some books. Sign up for some classes. Go out with your man-buddies. Buy something new! New clothes for the slimmer you? Keep working out. That was a GREAT frustration outlet for me. And most important, KEEP POSTING.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But if you have hope for your M recovering, then keep your hope. I alwasys had hope for our M. My friends marveled at it, because my H was off in la-la land. But I believed in everything we had been through, I believed that for all those years we loved and cared for each other. And my mind and heart told me that that doesn't just get wiped away. It just gets buried.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, I will keep my hope - I know I will. Family/friends think I'm crazy, but are supportive at the same time.

I believe what you say is true... that the feelings, history, etc. don't get wiped away; they get buried.
24 years is a long time. We started dating when she was 17 years old, I think(?) She turns 42 in a couple weeks. We've been best friends, constant companions, and we made a helluva team for... guess I have to say 22 years. Other people always admired our marriage. Quite a few times, we'd have a conversation of some sort with a complete stranger, and they'd say "you two seem like such a special couple." That happened often enough that we'd both look at each other and start laughing!

Sorry to ramble/reminisce when there's work to be done!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No more making her feel wanted, no more making her feel like she has a protector looking out for her best interests.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep... that's exactly what I've been doing -- making her feel wanted, and that she has a protector looking out for her best interests. There WAS a time when I thought women wanted that stuff <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . I shall cease and desist.


THANKS for the pep talk, Spidey, and the words of wisdom. It's given me extra energy for the gym... on my way there now... only problem is, the male-to-female ratio is disturbingly high!

How are you feeling today? How was your workout? Did you go eavesdrop on any more "old" men last night, and give them M advice? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Saving the world, one M at a time!

Hang in there. You can do this.

When you shared some of your reasons yesterday regarding why you choose to have hope, I could relate. I have been with my H since I was 16. We have lived all over the country, in another country, had 2 kids, and worked together as an amazing team for over 15 years. Some of my friends and family thought I was nuts, too, but they also supported my decisions.

My faith in our M, when H lost all his, is being paid in spades now. My H fully recognized that I carried the "torch" of our love and commitment to each other, even when he couldn't see it anymore. He cannot believe the "fog" that the mind creates to justify and rationalize the unjustifiable, and cannot believe the choices he made back then.

For us, just as quickly as the fog blew in, it blew out. I know each sitch is different, but . . . have you ever read Cerri on these boards? She is a veteran member. When I was describing mine and H's partnership and teamwork, she told me that that is a very important part of the long-term bonding ritual that us humans go through. The more ties and bonds you have, I think the more chance for M recovery. That is my personal theory. Don't look for it here on MB! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

Good Morning Spidey... Thanks for checking on me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

There must be some kind of HTTP-telepathy (that's a computer term...) going on here, because I was just looking for my thread to post... and it moved up on me, thanks to you!

You said

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And most important, KEEP POSTING.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and that I will do. You'll soon regret saying that, as I have a tendency to ramble... !

Feels like a "miscellaneous post" day, as nothing is going on with WW. OTHER than the damn basketball game tonight. Hope they have a wonderful time.... it makes me sick to think about, but nothing compared to thinking about AFTER the game...


Anyway... EXCELLENT workout, thank you. Not that I notice these things, but there were quite a few attractive young women there... this whole thing (The Situation) is making me feel OLD...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you go eavesdrop on any more "old" men last night, and give them M advice? Saving the world, one M at a time!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually it was THREE M's I was trying to save. I still chuckle when I think about it, but the fact is, these guys sounded like such idiots... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For us, just as quickly as the fog blew in, it blew out. I know each sitch is different, but . . .</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, no children for us, which may be ironic in some way. She told me before we married that she did NOT want children. I really think it had to do with everything she went thru with her parents' divorce. I was ok with the No Children rule. I was in love with her -- and I was too young to think about kids anyway....
BUT, I think it was having no children that helped set the stage for what certainly LOOKED like a significant MLC. My mother strongly feels that WW -- and many women who choose not to have children -- got to a stage in life and a certain emptiness was staring her in the face. I don't know enough about that to agree or disagree, but... (and certainly hope I don't offend any women here who have chosen to not have children!).
I still vote for MLC-of-some-kind as what started this whole thing -- at least helped to start it -- there were many other symptoms (new body, new clothes, devastated at turning 40; her father killed in car accident a year or two before that, which her family thinks she did not adjust to very well). Just looking for answers, that's all...
Anyway, to keep the story short(er)... it is No Children that will also help to keep WW from coming back. Sure, we have a lot of history, a lot of memories, etc... but the bond of children isn't there.

Yep... read many of Cerri's posts. She's a smart lady -- one of many here! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Ok... time for first question of the day, and it's an easy one.

Current strategy, as of yesterday: No contact with WW.
One thing I wanted to do last weekend was to get our Xmas CD's to her. She said something about them last week, and I was thinking that sending them (UPS or USPS package, with no note or anything) to her would 1) be a nice Plan A-type gesture 2) jog her memory a little bit as she pretends to enjoy her first Xmas season by herself. There's some songs in there that are definitely "us" songs. Certainly not anything I want to listen to.....

What do you think? Too much of a sappy, pursuit kind of thing? Not the right message to be sending her right now, in spite of the memory-jog factor?

I'm only 45 years old, and it's hard for me to make major decisions like this on my own <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just journaling here...

Things she has said that I keep replaying in my head... over and over... which give me hope...


"tqt, I love you... I really love you."
(voicemail msg 2 months after A confrontation, 4-5 months before moving out. After that, it became ILYBINILWY)


"Everything can be different?"
(said with hope, in tears, in response to me saying "Everything could be so different." 3 months before moving out. A in progress.)


"I have so much guilt in me."
(same conversation as above)


"I was just saying to myself, why am I doing this?"
(said as she was packing, day before moving out)


"I love you like I should love a husband I've been with for 24 years"
(said the morning of moving day)


"Why didn't you just tell me to go away for a month a long time ago"
(said the morning of moving day. 1-year lease signed on townhouse)


"I've never tried (at our marriage)."
(said within a day or two of moving out; can't remember if before or after)


"Nothing I've done can be undone."
(said about a month +/- ? after moving out)


"Once you leave you can never go back, right?"
(said about a month +/- ? after moving out)


"I'm just not happy."
(phone conversation, in tears, about 3-4 weeks ago)


"Yes, I've thought about it."
(same conversation as above; said in response to me asking "Have you thought about talking with someone to help you sort things out.")


"That's what you're supposed to do, isn't it?!? Blame somebody else, not take responsibility for your own actions?!?"
(cell phone, Thanksgiving morning, said about something trivial, but clearly with other meaning somewhere...)


"It's too comfortable here."
(Said out of the blue, a couple weeks ago when she stopped back home. Yep... I hate being comfortable, too...)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not the right message to be sending her right now, in spite of the memory-jog factor? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO, the right message to be sending to your WW is NO message. IMO, she could see you sending her those CD's as a way to try and control her behavior/feelings/thoughts. Which, by the memory-jogging thingie, you kinda are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

It is funny how you have grasped onto little things that give you hope. Not funny like "ha ha ha," but funny like "Wow, I did the same thing." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> One of the things that gave me hope, especially after H took off his wedding ring for the first time EVER, was that when he opened his wallet up, there was my picture still - front and center.

I didn't call him on it, because I was afraid that if he consciously realized that he was giving me any kind of hope at all, he would move the photo. But there I was. I kept thinking in my head, "No matter what words he says, his ACTION in that manner is that he still sees me several times a day, whenever he opens that wallet!"

I found hope in the fact that right after D-day, he bought me a copier/scanner/faxer/printer, to help with my new home business. I found hope when he made my website for my other home business.

I didn't find much hope in any of his WORDS. His words were horrible and mean. Now he realizes that he was trying to push me away, trying to sever our relationship. In order to justify/rationalize his actions that were so different from his core values. Our MC says that the further someone's actions are from their core values, the stranger (fogier) their behavior becomes.

Hang on to your hope, tqt. I realized during our separation that if I lost my hope for our M, then our M was over.

Spidey

Spidey,
I just read a couple of your posts from today, and though I don't know your whole story yet -- I have some reading to do -- what I did read makes me want to say, for right now...

From how uplifting and positive you've been with and for ME, I had no idea that you were going thru such a hard time right now yourself. That makes me feel bad, and it makes me feel so MUCH MORE appreciative of what you've done for ME.
Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, and please know that I'm thinking of you.

What draws such special people like you and others to this place.... I'm seriously SO humbled by it.

Spidey, I feel myself "giving up." "Giving up" isn't the best choice of words, because I've tried my best -- I know not the smartest, but my best. The last 10 months of my life have been a personal hell that no human should have to go through. I'm struggling with the difference between giving up and facing reality -- what is it I'm fighting for? Is it my past, and what I thought would be my future? How realistic is it that this woman is going to change (back?) into the person that I need to live a happy, fulfilling life?

I'm wondering how much damage she's done to me. I know that over the last 10 months she's wounded me to the core. And I've started to wonder how much damage she's done to me over the last 24 years. Not knowing that is MY weakness -- I know that.

I'm not a quitter, though... and unfortunately, I'm not a quitter to a fault.
So...obviously I'm doing a lot of soul searching (how 'bout (!&@#(* constantly!?!?).

I'm also hoping YOU, in your situation, are staying strong. In just a couple days, you've shown me -- and I'm a complete stranger! -- how so very strong you are. You really have. Keep your head up, ok? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for all the compliments, and all the concern, tqt. I am doing OK. I have known that this month, of all others, was going to kick my a$$. So easily, I can let my head and heart go back in time, to that place of hurt and anger, hopelessness and frustration, despair and dejection. Recovery truly takes 2-5 years, and it is no picnic sometimes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> However, it is what I said to you yesterday ~ the stuff we work hardest and longest for is the BEST stuff, isn't it? That is the prize that I have my eye on - a healthy, functional M that we are both happy and growing and "safe" - both with each other, and most importantly ourSELVES.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm wondering how much damage she's done to me. I know that over the last 10 months she's wounded me to the core. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All of the thoughts you are having now are natural, and necessary. My H and I were talking about that today at lunch. Each person needs to decide their personal limits for themselves. Know that whatever you decide to do, I will support you. We all will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm struggling with the difference between giving up and facing reality -- what is it I'm fighting for? Is it my past, and what I thought would be my future? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is a good point you have made - how much damage has been done? You have to have gas left in your tank for Recovery, not just ending the A.

I think that is why Plan B can be so crucial to the survival of the M long-term. Look how I struggle, and we've been in Recovery for over 8 months!

Keep on keeping on, tqt. Whether your WW chooses to come back to the M or not, your life will go on. There are still good times to be had. This is a time for introspection, growth, and personal recovery.

Take care. Spidey

**edited to add that since it took me over 2 hours, off and on, to post this (including 2 homework assignments with my boys, ordering a pizza, and laundry), this post is disjointed. It also got all messed up and I tried to fix it, when I posted it. If my thoughts are unclear, please ask for clarification. Sorry if the confusion of my life transferred into this post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
**edited to add that since it took me over 2 hours, off and on, to post this (including 2 homework assignments with my boys, ordering a pizza, and laundry), this post is disjointed. It also got all messed up and I tried to fix it, when I posted it. If my thoughts are unclear, please ask for clarification. Sorry if the confusion of my life transferred into this post!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The IMPORTANT thing here is, with all this confusion, did you remember to tip the pizza guy?!

Thanks Spidey -- I was really hoping you weren't going to add "help tqt" to everything else you have going on... but of course I do appreciate it, all the more because you certainly have better things to do! Probably like "all of us BS's," having been trampled on so hard and for so long... it's such a breath of fresh air to get the support, understanding and kind words from someone who cares (and knows what they're talking about!) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


I'm in some sort of transition stage -- I don't know for sure what it is, or where it came from.

I started to write more, but I don't want to waste anyone else's time "thinking out loud." I'm a bit confused, I guess. Confused, but calmer and in better spirits than I have been in a long time.

Maybe it's my brain/heart/soul going into protection mode... or we-need-a-rest! mode.

Thanks again Spidey... and here's to a better tomorrow for you and all of us <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The IMPORTANT thing here is, with all this confusion, did you remember to tip the pizza guy?! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course!!! GEEZ!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You are not "added to my list." I post to you because something(s) about your sitch are similar to mine. I post because it helps me heal. I post because the people who posted to me were a lifeline, those who were in recovery, when I was not.

I would like to hear if you want to "think out loud." If you want to keep it private, I understand. I, however, realized during my own sitch (and STILL do, which is why I still post about my own stuff) that getting those feelings out in the open, those thoughts, helps to process them. BUT, there are things I don't post, either, so I understand both ways.

I think it has just gotten hecktic because of 1)the Christmas season, and 2)my 1-year anni of D-day coming up.

So, please realize that I post because I enjoy, not that I feel enslaved to it. AND, please realize that I enjoy posting to you. BUT, no matter who you post to, KEEP POSTING! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

Thanks for putting me in my place <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I was REALLY good today... but I crashed this evening. The proverbial roller coaster, I assume.

I hate quitting, and I hate losing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

But I also can't stand the fact that my wife is sleeping with another man. There are times when after analyzing everything...EVERYTHING... again...

One of the biggest problems I'm having is that every day that goes by, my wife is getting more and more into the 'used goods' category.

Maybe it's a guy thing? Maybe it's me?

Do men have a bigger problem with the PA part of this nightmare than women do, as a rule?

Many (most?) men would have ZERO tolerance.

I found within myself a way to forgive her for what was at the time, as far as I know, a ONS helped along by too much alcohol. (but yes, the EA was happening for 4+ months by then)

But it's beyond that ONS...

I'm disgusted with and disappointed in myself for "putting up" with it.
And seriously questioning if we could ever have a happy healthy M after all she's done -- to herself, and to me.

From what you've said, it seems like we share the same definition of what a happy, healthy marriage is... do you understand how I'm feeling about this stuff, and do you have any advice on how to deal with it?

It's not a guy thing.

Noodle

[edited to add..I have been told on more than one occasion that I "think like a man" whatever that means..so maybe it IS a guy thing and I'm just weird.]

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 10:11 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by noodle:
<strong> It's not a guy thing.

Noodle

[edited to add..I have been told on more than one occasion that I "think like a man" whatever that means..so maybe it IS a guy thing and I'm just weird.] </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nah... I'm guessing you're not weird <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BUT, I think I did read somewhere that men "generally" have more of a problem with the physical part of it than women do. Whatever truth there is to that probably goes back a million years to the days o' the cave...

Why do I feel myself getting into trouble here? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> do you understand how I'm feeling about this stuff, and do you have any advice on how to deal with it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I do understand how you are feeling. A part of me (and that part is still there if I think about it hard enough) feels that my M has been "soiled," has been ruined. These are very strong, very finite words, are they not? These are the words my EGO uses - as Dr. Harley says, my Taker.

My Giver says that my love for my H, my desire for my M, should not and is not dependant upon getting that love returned, not dependant upon my H's desire for the M. I cannot control him, I can only control me. However, this type of thinking is very hard to continue for a long period of time. It is a "Christ-like" way to live, and I'm afraid only He could continue in that manner ~ ie, love the sinner, when the sinner professed to HATE him, or have indifference. I don't know if you are religious, but even if not, that is His story told in the Bible.

This is what ARK means when she speaks of the lighthouse, of Plan A. Give, with expectation of nothing in return. And this is where I have seen Plan A turn into something very ugly. Even if people profess to wanting to give with no expectation of a return on their "investment," you can tell when they have been let down. And that is where the AO and the DJ's and the LB'g come out. Our Ego's are powerful parts of us, designed to "protect" us. Designed to make sure we "get ours."

And, I don't think it is harder for guys. I think that it is hard for people who have a well-defined set of boundaries about this sort of thing. For instance, I was the "if you ever fall in love with another woman, it's over" type of person. Hmmmmmmm. And yet here I am, riding the Recovery Rollercoaster with the best of 'em.

I still struggle with the PA part, and my H and my Former Best Friend "only" had SF 4 times in a 2-week period before H had the mental breakdown and confessed in the ER to me ~ last New Year's Eve (isn't my story dramatic? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ). I have just as hard a time as my friend Confused & Scared had here, and her H's A lasted years with her Former Best Friend before she found out.

Couple things about your post that I wanted to mention: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I found within myself a way to forgive her for what was at the time, as far as I know, a ONS helped along by too much alcohol. (but yes, the EA was happening for 4+ months by then) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm wondering if this is hindering you, in the manner that you had a certain "look and feel" of what had happened, digested it to some extent, and then it changed. And it changed for the far end of worse. This kind-of happened to me, in that for the month of December last year, I knew H was "in love" with OW. BUT, I believed that 1)she wasn't interested in him in that way (because that is what she told me), and 2)that H wouldn't cheat on my physically (because that is what he told me).

It was almost as if it just kept getting worse and worse and worse, culminating with a lot of DRAMA at our local hospital. *sigh* So, for a LONG time after D-day, I kept running things over and over in my mind. Replaying the crash of our M. So, I understand about that.

Second, this part of what you said kinda cracked me up, again not laughing at you, but laughing at US because I thought the same thing: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm disgusted with and disappointed in myself for "putting up" with it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason this cracks me up is because, what would it look like to NOT put up with it? It's not like you could just be very manly and put your large foot down and say in a deep and commanding voice "ENOUGH!" and she would stop. Right?

I used to think this to myself all the time as well. I would think "If I were half the woman I thought I was, I would D his a$$ for doing this to me and our M." My Ego. My Taker. Then my heart, my Giver, would have to admit to myself that that is not what I wanted. I didn't want a D. H thought he did, but I knew I didn't. If that was the course he wanted to take, fine (and it took me a long time to be able to believe that, BTW), but I was not going to enable him in that way, I was not going to do that for him. I believed in our M, and I was going to stand up for my belief.

And my H thanks me almost every day for maintaining that belief. "Used goods?" I have had that feeling before. These are all decisions you have to make on your own, tqt. What always gave me hope was reading stories here where people got back together again, and were able to have the openess and honesty to rebuild. Because, let's face it, once you go through this sort of thing, it is a LOT easier to talk about hurtful stuff, IMO. NOTHING my H says to me that makes him feel unhappy is as hurtful as him telling me that he never loved me. That at one point he wished I was dead so he could be with OW guilt-free. That I was just the best he thought he could do, so he M'd me for all the wrong reasons.

However, when he told me he "just M'd his best friend," I knew he was full of CRAP. What better choice to make than to M your best friend? Hormones, "chemistry," physical attraction wears off after 15 years, to some extent! There must be a friendship to fall back on.

The first thing my H told me, when I knew we would be back together, was when he looked at me and said, "I keep remembering what a good team we have been all these years."

That is when I knew he was "defogging." That is when I knew that if I gave him more time and space to figure it out, he would come home. And he did. We were both in IC. His IC helped him figure a LOT of this stuff out. He was drowning in the guilt, in self-loathing. Hopefully your WW has, or will soon, seek out IC.

My H woke me up when he got home from school, and now I'm going to try and fall back asleep. Good to hear from you! Hold on tight to the rollercoaster! Good to "see" you Noodle!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Couple things about your post that I wanted to mention: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I found within myself a way to forgive her for what was at the time, as far as I know, a ONS helped along by too much alcohol. (but yes, the EA was happening for 4+ months by then) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm wondering if this is hindering you, in the manner that you had a certain "look and feel" of what had happened, digested it to some extent, and then it changed. And it changed for the far end of worse. This kind-of happened to me, in that for the month of December last year, I knew H was "in love" with OW. BUT, I believed that 1)she wasn't interested in him in that way (because that is what she told me), and 2)that H wouldn't cheat on my physically (because that is what he told me).

It was almost as if it just kept getting worse and worse and worse, culminating with a lot of DRAMA at our local hospital. *sigh* So, for a LONG time after D-day, I kept running things over and over in my mind. Replaying the crash of our M. So, I understand about that.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"It was almost as if it just kept getting worse and worse and worse"

You hit the nail on the head, Spidey.

I don't even know where my original post is anymore, with the condensed version of my story... I'll try to illustrate in a few lines just what you talked about above.

12/03-02/04: Became suspicious; too many things not matching up right.
02/04: Had my proof, confronted her. She denied any PA for the longest time. She promised no contact, other than critical/business. She did try. Eventually figured out it was PA also, supposedly ONS.
03/04-06/04: Withdrawal, MASSIVE fog, anger, etc. etc. In 5/04 she first said "I think I have to leave."
07/04-09/04: 50% certain that PA re-started. Her anger got worse... and worse... intense, sometimes violent rages. A living Hell. Actually, I would've taken Hell in a heartbeat...
Started MC (yep, kinda late in the game, but I was anti-MC, she was lying continuously, etc. I finally saw no chance without getting help)
WW lied to MC/me about status of A for the duration of MC.
10/04: lied about everything up to moving day; was even planning on loading up and being gone while I was at work. Instead, I managed to figure things out, and helped her load the truck.

So, yes... a terrible situation got worse, and worse, and worse.
I know I shouldn't have allowed myself to stay in the HUGE pain and chaos for as long as I did, but I was truly WORRYING about her well-being (still am, I think...). There was no one else, including her family, who both KNEW enough AND cared enough to be of any help to her....


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
Second, this part of what you said kinda cracked me up, again not laughing at you, but laughing at US because I thought the same thing: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm disgusted with and disappointed in myself for "putting up" with it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The reason this cracks me up is because, what would it look like to NOT put up with it? It's not like you could just be very manly and put your large foot down and say in a deep and commanding voice "ENOUGH!" and she would stop. Right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, by not "putting up with it" I meant more along the lines of ending the M.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I used to think this to myself all the time as well. I would think "If I were half the woman I thought I was, I would D his a$$ for doing this to me and our M." My Ego. My Taker. Then my heart, my Giver, would have to admit to myself that that is not what I wanted. I didn't want a D. H thought he did, but I knew I didn't. If that was the course he wanted to take, fine (and it took me a long time to be able to believe that, BTW), but I was not going to enable him in that way, I was not going to do that for him. I believed in our M, and I was going to stand up for my belief. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure if this is a fair question... if you did not have children, would you have felt differently back then?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
That is when I knew he was "defogging." That is when I knew that if I gave him more time and space to figure it out, he would come home. And he did. We were both in IC. His IC helped him figure a LOT of this stuff out. He was drowning in the guilt, in self-loathing. Hopefully your WW has, or will soon, seek out IC.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She did see IC back in March (two sessions). From what I could surmise, she was looking for someone to help her justify things/lessen her guilt.
Same thing she did with MC in late summer...

All for now... thanks for listening to me ramble...

This is Day 4 of N/C with her... I think the longest N/C we've had is 5-6 days. Should get interesting soon, maybe?

The last contact I had with WW was a phone conversation on 12/12.

I've now gone dark.... but if and when she decides to contact me, I need to be prepared.

How should I sound; what should my demeanor be?
Neighborly? Indifferent?
Use some sort of foreign accent? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Or just mumble and pretend there's a lousy connection... ?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Not sure if this is a fair question... if you did not have children, would you have felt differently back then? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, I don't know. Depends on the day. Some days, I feel certain I would have fought tooth and nail to keep him even with no kids, some days I wonder if I am ONLY doing it for the kids and even wonder if that is enough to keep me going. *sigh* Which is why I said a few posts back that that is a decision that needs to be made on a personal level. Everyone has their limits.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Use some sort of foreign accent? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hee hee. That is so funny. You crack me up! What I did, when my H contacted me, is I tried to be his friend. I was courteous, I really tried to LISTEN to what he had to say. This is key, IMO. Many times, I think without realizing it, we WANT to hear our WS's say certain things. And our brains are so fixated on hearing that, or trying to get them to say that, or just being angry/depressed that they DIDN'T say that, WAY too many opportunities are lost. IMVHO.

For instance, today I read something that a WS wrote a BS. The WS was being very honest about what he was feeling. Being so close to the sitch, the BS had a very hard time reading said letter. I saw a positive, in that the WS was sharing feelings. The BS didn't read what they thought they should be reading, and assumed immediately that the M was over.

It is funny, because at the beginning of NC during our separation, each day seemed an eternity. I knew exactly how many days it had been since I last talked to FWH. And sometimes I would think it had been 2 weeks, then I would count them, and it would have been . . . like 4. Ugh!

And FWH, he felt like contact was too frequent. He LOVED the NC at first. AT FIRST. Then, as it got easier for me, into the 3rd month (I wasn't dark that long, but by then I had been about 1 month), it got harder for H. It was the darnedest thing! Just like all my MB buddies said it could happen! For me, following the MB program really worked.

Anyway, just be her friend. Stand by your boundaries. Try not to be her "knight in shinging armor." I know that is hard for you guys to do, just as it was hard for me not to try and "take care" of my H. They need to know what life without the BS will be like. Get their wheels turning.

And I am so sorry that your sitch just went from bad to worse, to . . . worser. Isn't it weird how we want to believe them so badly, even when we "know" that something is not right? The shattering of that trust, is the hardest thing to overcome in Recovery, IMO.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And FWH, he felt like contact was too frequent. He LOVED the NC at first. AT FIRST. Then, as it got easier for me, into the 3rd month (I wasn't dark that long, but by then I had been about 1 month), it got harder for H. It was the darnedest thing! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, by saying "as it got easier for me," are you saying that you were detaching, moving on, something in between, or... ? And then lo and behold, FWH sorta reappeared?

And during that time, was the A still in progress?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, just be her friend. Stand by your boundaries. Try not to be her "knight in shinging armor." I know that is hard for you guys to do, just as it was hard for me not to try and "take care" of my H.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sound advice.
Actually, the natural tendency is for me to start acting like her father, or something to that effect. The Protector. It's that lost, confused, scared little girl that seems to bring that out in me. So... she compares THAT with the feeling she gets with OM, and it ain't much of a decision for her, is it... It's something I've been working on, and know I'm getting better at it. Maybe that's a big deal, maybe it isn't...not sure.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I am so sorry that your sitch just went from bad to worse, to . . . worser. Isn't it weird how we want to believe them so badly, even when we "know" that something is not right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes... and just as I was reading those words, I realized something that didn't quite register before. It was WANTING to believe so many things that just didn't mesh with reality that made me make so many mistakes. Or at least not handle things as well as I could have. Had I been here (MB) at the time, things could well have been much different now.
(but... I've beaten myself up enough over this that I'll choose not to take another whack right now, thank you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Thanks Spidey... one of these days I'll get out of Self-Absorbed Mode and ask you how YOU are doing... things are going well, I hope!!!