</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Spidey, by saying "as it got easier for me," are you saying that you were detaching, moving on, something in between, or... ? And then lo and behold, FWH sorta reappeared? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, that's what I mean. I found, when I chose to stop contacting my FWH, that I was just as addicted to him (in a non-healthy way) as he was to the OW. I think we all can let our relationships morph into something that isn't pretty or healthy. I very much saw my H as my protector, my savior, my reason for being. I literally thought I would die if he ever left me. Then he did, and I woke up the next morning and thought, "Huh, I'm still here. Now what?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just as you act as a father-figure to your WW. One of the positives that has come out of this whole A business for me is that before it happened, my H was very much against any type of counseling. A few times, over the years, I thought there must be more to M than what we were doing. I thought neither of us had good role models, neither really knew what a healthy M was. But H always dismissed the idea, as counselors were freaks out for money. Well, this A got us in the counselor's office, that's for sure. We both learned what a healthy M is, what 2 healthy individuals in a M are, and we learned how to communicate.

Funny how over the years you can kinda get into these strange "dances" with each other. Cycles of arguments, or blame, or the same argument over and over that just won't go away. We learned to really look at these, and put our heads together, and resolve them. What are we really fighting about? What is really going on? What am I really feeling?

Nothing like an A to blow apart the "old" system ~ blow it completely apart. Basically, we started over from scratch. I honestly cannot think of a single incident that could have propelled us forward in our M (and ourselves as individuals) as quickly and completely as this A has. Isn't that the nature of humans, though? Not to do the hard work until it is absolutely required?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It was WANTING to believe so many things that just didn't mesh with reality that made me make so many mistakes. Or at least not handle things as well as I could have. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I could not agree with you more. Excellent way of putting that. I made sooooo many many many mistakes. D-day was New Year's Eve 2003, and I found MB in February (the 4th?). I found great hope and guidance here. Just knowing that others had gone through this and recovered, rebuilt, was like a soothing salve on my burning wound. Knowing that others' sitches looked just as hopeless as mine, and they were in Recovery. Even watching people have to deal with their partners going through with the D was inspiring. Made me realize that if I had to, I also could survive that.

Let's see, you asked if the A was over when I detached from H. Yes, the PA was over, but I didn't know that at the time. I always assumed the worst after D-day. The OW in my case was my Former Best Friend (FBF). After I found MB, and exposure to end the A, I sent her a letter telling her who I would tell if she didn't back away from my H. But even before that, as soon as H confessed the A to me, she pretty much ended it. I think it freaked her out that H had to go to the ER for the mental breakdown. And she also felt "betrayed" that he told me. They had agreed not to tell! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

We live in a pretty small community, and I am very involved in the community. She didn't want to be known as Homewrecker. BUT, the A died before H was ready for it to die, which caused a whole other set of problems. H was convinced D was the only solution. He had many reasons. Too much damage had been done, he had rewritten our past to accomodate his actions, he could never trust me again ( <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> ), he loved OW, etc. The only reason he went to MC was to "make the D go more smoothly."

So, for 3 months, this man lived in a tiny little apartment, calling and emailing his OW who already had herself another boyfriend (she was actually seeing them both at the same time - yuck), rather than come home to his family. In that aspect, my sitch seemed so hopeless to me. OW didn't want him, and he was STILL fogged out. *sigh*

BUT, the fog does wear off. IMO, faster when they are left to their own devices. Once I removed myself from H's daily life, he had nobody to be angry with but himself. He couldn't blame me for this or that. I think it also gave him and OW nothing to talk about!

I remember the day I realized I had acheived my goal. H came over to get some tax documents, and the boys and I were eating our traditional weekend breakfast of waffles or pancakes, and bacon. The house smelled wonderful, and we were having a great time eating breakfast and watching cartoons. H came in, got the documents, and we were just watching tv. We were like, "Hey, bye." He got out to his car, and looked back in the front window at us. THAT is when I knew he was starting to understand that I was detaching, I was moving forward, the boys' lives and mine were going to go on ~ and he could come with us, or be left behind by himself.

He still talks about that feeling. He says, "Yeah, I was doing fine in my pity party, by myself. Then I realized you were moving on without me, and all of a sudden I was like - wait, I better get my [censored] together, so I can move on with her."

I think all sitches look hopeless for a time. And then you turn a corner. Personal recovery is key, IMO. Forget about WW for a while. Time for tqt. Keep doing stuff for you. Keep posting. And definately look at that "father" thing you have going. I know it is kinda typical, but I don't think it is healthy. Once my H saw and heard my changes/realizations, he started to have hope for our future, as well. You must lead by example.

Spidey

ps, BTW, I am doing just fine. We are holding tight to each other, and hanging in there. Thanks for thinking of us! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey,

That is the first time I have read your entire story. Wow! That is all I can say.

You are such a good writer Spidey, your story held me spellbound! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Right on!!!!!

Thank you, Weaver. You are so complimentary! Sometimes, I feel I have my moments, and others I feel like, "I can't believe I wrote that crap!" Probably normal though, huh.

This is OT, sorry tqt, but what you said resounded with me, Weaver, so I hope you weren't kidding. I have struggled with what to "be" when I grow up, for a long time now. In fact, I am darn near growed up already! In that my boys are 12 and 13, and if I go to school for something that takes 4 years, I could do that now and have a fun career when they are growed up, and in college.

I would love to have a career, but I cannot dedicate the time required right now. My boys have been my top priority since the days they were born. H has worked so hard our entire M, he thinks it is a great idea that I pursue my career then, and he can relax a bit. And that is just fine for me!

Anyway, I have been leaning toward writing for a while now. And your comment in your earlier post is another signal to me.

So, the lesson here is, your words very much impact other people, and don't give someone a compliment unless you really mean it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Love you Weaver girl. Spidey

tqt, I found this on another pro-marriage site today, and wanted to share it with you. I don't know if you know, but Cerri on MB, is Penny Tupy ~ owner operator creator of saveyourmarriagecentral.com, where yours truly is a moderator. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Not as busy as over here at MB, so I don't really do much over there, but . . . this was posted by the FWH of another moderator over there. And it kinda has to do with your question of yesterday of what to do/say when/if your WW contacts you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A Testimonial Regarding Protection Phase
by Sharon_SYMC and her husband


If you are in, or considering Protection Phase, please, please read the following. It was written on MB by my FWH in answer to the question: "What made you decide to come home?"

It points out the importance of Protection Phase and the setbacks that can be created by contact. In our case, we may well have started into Recovery much earlier had we remained totally in no contact.

BTW, this is being posted with the full approval of my husband.


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The contact we had during separation probably did more harm in my progress to return than anything else. Let me attempt to explain.

During those periods of silence, I had time to reflect on my M and what was in jeopardy. Interestingly, I best remembered the good stuff, those wonderful times and memories we shared. Then along would come some form of contact. Often it resulted in hurt feelings, some anger and defensive posturing on my part. For me it resulted in negative thoughts and sadly, overshadowed and dashed any progress I had made. Yes, call it being stubborn. Or perhaps, I knew what I was doing was wrong, why do I need to be reminded. So back in the shell I climbed. Further complicating things is that I am a first class conflict avoider.

What brought me back? There wasn't one single thing but perhaps a series of things. I had felt pressured in returning and naturally, that didn't do any good. Some people tried to play the morality card, but that doesn't work -- why would it on someone involved in an A? I know they were appealing to my better nature, but the stubborn side won.

I came back when I wanted to and felt I was best prepared to work on recovery. There wasn't a lightning bolt or anything like that, just a progression of thoughts and feelings. It will take time -- some take longer than others which is certainly evident here on this board. I guess there may be an "average" time, but since all people are unique, so are the circumstances.

Protect yourself and your feelings. My best advice is stay silent. If you need to make contact in the event of an emergency or some extraordinary circumstance, do so through an intermediary. It sure its impact on me when that first happened.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">At SYMC, the system is a bit different than here at MB. The Protection Phase, PP, is similar to Plan B here. So you get an idea of what they are talking about. If you are interested in coming over there for a visit, we would love to have you! Not as many people over there, so you get 1)less responses in a greater amount of time, but 2)I think the responses gotten are wonderful.

Anyway, some background on a quote I wanted to share with you, having to do with your current sitch.

Spidey

I almost tossed this out, but decided WTH...

Hi Spidey,
Thanks for the SYMC invitation, and the PP quote! It was helpful.
I have been over there (SYMC) a few times, and I agree there's good stuff to be had. Thanks for thinking of me.

Today, I'm all over the place -- emotionally speaking. Just SO much STUFF going thru my head... constantly... there must be an on/off switch around here SOMEwhere... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

In an attempt to organize my thoughts, and perhaps solicit some feedback, I will now begin rambling:

I'm not sure what's going on. I'm doing one or more (all?) of the following:

healing
detaching
falling out of love
protecting myself
accepting reality of the past: Me, WW, our marriage
accepting reality of the present: what are the odds of WW returning, etc.
evaluating future if she WERE to come back
evaluating future if she DOESN'T come back


From another post I just read:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
She is so lost in the fog, but affairs always end, they are all about living in a fantasy world..they arent real.. I hope soon she will realize how she is wasting her life on something that isnt real.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
BUT, the fog does wear off. IMO, faster when they are left to their own devices. Once I removed myself from H's daily life, he had nobody to be angry with but himself. He couldn't blame me for this or that. I think it also gave him and OW nothing to talk about!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm having trouble accepting the fact that WW is lost in a real fog. And if no fog, there's nothing to wear off, and nothing to come out of.
And this is an A that I don't necessarily see an end to, at least in the foreseeable future.

Regardless, I think I have myself convinced that she's not coming back, and here are the reasons:

Her inability and/or refusal to deal with her own issues -- one of the big reasons all of this happened.
Her avoidance of conflict -- MC told her about this, she admits it, but hasn't dealt with it.
Her guilt and shame -- to come back means facing it.
It took her, after D-Day, more than SEVEN months to finally leave. That's a lot of turmoil (as I've talked about in prior posts), and a lot of time to convince herself she made the right decision. In other words, a lot to turn around.
Part of her justification for leaving ("it has nothing to do with OM," of course...) was:
-- married too young, never been alone, "I've been told I'm totally dependent on you."
-- she's convinced herself that she needs to prove to herself that she can be independent (that was a kind gift from her mother, who has been married 3 times)
OM left his wife/son; they're now D. That means: he's freed up to put all his time/energy into their (WW/OM) R,
and also pressure on WW. He blew up his family for my WW, he's not about to let her go. My thinking. I think his pressure was HUGE in getting her to finally move out. My WW is a very beautiful woman, and this piece of scum wanted a trophy to boost his pathetic ego. (I've met the OM a few times; I know of his type of man; just trust me on that one!)
And now, rather than "having access" to her most of her time (at work), he's got round-the-clock access... and WW is vulnerable.

And the big one: (my theory) She became unhappy with herself, felt an emptiness, etc., and looked outside of herself for the happiness she was missing. Other than work, she had virtually nothing else to occupy her time, immerse herself in, be passionate about. No children, no hobbies, no interests. It was always that way. I recognized it early on in our M.

It's almost as if the rest of the story tells itself. Given the simple fact that she cannot and/or will not face her own issues, she really doesn't have much of a choice to make, does she? Coming back REQUIRES she face herself, NOT coming back means not only NOT having to face herself, but it also means (what she sees as) a life of fun and frolic with the OM. She wins all the way around!


If it sounds like I take zero responsibility for the demise of my M, please be assured I accept a LOT of the responsibility. But I also know that I'm generally very hard on myself, and I'm probably accepting way too much.


There's an emotional maturity/intelligence factor here, too. Case in point: far as I remember, Spidey, you are, within a few years, same age as WW.
When I compare what is (quite obviously <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) your emotional intelligence with that of WW, ummm... well... enough said <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
I believe she INHERITED that from her mother, and a less than healthy "emotional environment" in her family as a child didn't make it any better. Also "inherited" from her parents and their marital history, was a different set of values when it comes to little things like, oh...commitment.

Am I bashing my WW? Sounds like it, I know, but.. maybe I can set the record straight by saying...

One thing, in 24 years, that I never doubted for an instant... I would've walked on water for my wife... and if it turned out I didn't know how, I would've figured it out.

She, on the other hand, without a discussion, without so much as a word, without so much as a warning... for some reason became a little disillusioned with something (after 21 years together), and decided to blow up our marriage and walk out. Didn't even say goodbye...


Next chapter... "Fog or NPD? The Prognosis for a Healthy Marriage"

Stay tuned...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong>here are the reasons:

Her inability and/or refusal to deal with her own issues -- one of the big reasons all of this happened.
Her avoidance of conflict -- MC told her about this, she admits it, but hasn't dealt with it.
Her guilt and shame -- to come back means facing it.
And now, rather than "having access" to her most of her time (at work), he's got round-the-clock access... and WW is vulnerable.

And the big one: (my theory) She became unhappy with herself, felt an emptiness, etc., and looked outside of herself for the happiness she was missing. Other than work, she had virtually nothing else to occupy her time, immerse herself in, be passionate about. No children, no hobbies, no interests. It was always that way. I recognized it early on in our M.

It's almost as if the rest of the story tells itself. Given the simple fact that she cannot and/or will not face her own issues, she really doesn't have much of a choice to make, does she? Coming back REQUIRES she face herself, NOT coming back means not only NOT having to face herself, but it also means (what she sees as) a life of fun and frolic with the OM. She wins all the way around!

There's an emotional maturity/intelligence factor here, too.

I would've walked on water for my wife... and if it turned out I didn't know how, I would've figured it out.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What an amazing coincidense, I feel the same way about X

tqt, hmmmmmm. Your post WAS very interesting, and pretty all over, just like you warned us it would be! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> This is the best way to work through inner turmoil, IMO.

First off, I want to talk about what you said about your wife's 1)emotional maturity, and 2)what she was "taught" about commitment.

My age, ahem, is 32. I have officially been with my H for 1/2 of my life. ugh. Anyway, I don't know so much right now if you are gauging her emotional maturity pre-A, or gauging it now. Right now, she has the emotional maturity of a teenager. That is a characteristic of a WS, not individuals in particular, IMO.

Second, my mother has been forced to stop on H #5, because her fifth one helped along her brain damage, done mostly by Multiple Sclerosis, by OD'ing her on psychotropic drugs. So, now she has almost 100% dimentia, and lives in a nursing home. Otherwise, she'd probably be well on her way to #6. That is what I learned growing up ~ when the going gets tough, run like he!!. My H was my rock, the only steady thing in my life, longer than anyone else has ever held that role, to include parents (didn't meet my real dad until I was 14).

Imagine what that did to me when he left, with all that attachment STUCK onto H. I was crushed. I thought I was destroyed. I thought that the sun and moon would stop setting where they were supposed to, because I must have slipped into an alternate reality (too much sci-fi?)! Because this A happened, and we went to MC, and I went to IC, I discovered how to be all of that to myself. I am whole now. I am not "1/2 of a whole."

Anyway, while you were M'ed, what was your impression of your WW's character? Before the A. Before the A, my vision of my H's character, HONESTLY, was that if the roles were reversed, I TRULY believed my H would have fought for/waited for/Plan A'd me ~ waited for me to figure it all out, and been willing to rebuild with me if/when I came back. I believe that with all my heart, and even posted about it several times while he was still wayward. That was one of the big things that helped me to personally decide.

I doubted the fog myself, tqt. I thought, "What if he really loves her? What if she really is the one for him? What if what if what if?"

After posting here for almost a year, I have to tell you that your WW is in the fog. Why do such a high percentage of WS's come back to the M? Because A's are NOT REAL! That is GREAT that the OM can focus all his time and attention on your WW now. You have just given your WW the means to end the A quicker. What they are "in love with" are the feel-good feelings they feel when they are around each other. This man could be ANY man, IMO. It really has nothing to do with the person, it is the way the relationship began, the components of the A itself, that makes the relationship "work."

The fact that she is out away from you, only makes her remember you more, in a positive way. I truly believe this. It is counterintuitive, it seems unnatural, BUT . . . I have seen it over and over again, as well as in my own life.

So, answer my question, and let's move on from there. Aren't I bossy??? Good grief! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

Steve, thanks for checking in. I just read some of your story. You sound like you're staying strong, bro'!
And thanks for the laugh -- this was funny as hell <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> :

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
if I wasnt a man Id go download "I will survive" Ahh what the hell, Ill do it anyway
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What an amazing coincidense, I feel the same way about X</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Seems to me, if we both feel the same way, then... we MUST have our act together, donchathink!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Spidey,
"tqt,hmmmmmmmmmm" sounds ominous....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Anyway, while you were M'ed, what was your impression of your WW's character? Before the A. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting you ask that, b/c when I wrote, "Next chapter... Fog or NPD? The Prognosis for a Healthy Marriage" -- that's pretty much what I was planning to hit on in my next post.

And now, boss, you're forcing me to continue my aimless rambling. Yeeehaaa!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

This is scary stuff, and a huge subject. As with most of us here, this situation prompted me to do a couple million hours of research on lots of subjects, including mental health, character disorders, etc. Let me just say that when I took a MLC "test" for WW, she scored something like 24 out of 26 indicators/symptoms. And, she fits the Narcissistic Personality Disorder bill WAY too close. Same goes for Depression.

So... not sure where to go with this, but... once NPD enters into the picture, all bets are off.

How you described your H's character pre-A.... I can't say for sure if I could've EVER said that about my WW.

Not trying to change the subject...a few posts above (page 4), I listed all the things I remember WW saying. What's your impression of those statements, collectively?

One thing I'm trying to figure out is (and you say WW *IS* in the fog, which is GOOD news) -- just how much of this situation is Classic Fog, and how much is something else, perhaps something much worse...

Let's see. I'll go through each of the "hope" sayings, one at a time.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"tqt, I love you... I really love you."
(voicemail msg 2 months after A confrontation, 4-5 months before moving out. After that, it became ILYBINILWY) This just shows me how very confused she is, how her mind is probably not even made up at this point, but she felt she had to make a decision one way or the other, even though she realizes neither is a good decision. It is my experience that this is very common with the WS.


"Everything can be different?"
(said with hope, in tears, in response to me saying "Everything could be so different." 3 months before moving out. A in progress.) My H waffled like this so much during the A, before he moved out (before I KNEW of the A). For some reason, the morning after H spent the night with OW, he came home and told me he had driven around all night, in our old neighborhoods we lived in as teenagers, remembering us, and it gave him hope and he realized he wanted to be with me and he loved me. This was 2 days before the mental breakdown, and his absolute certaintly that he didn't love me and never had. I realize he had to cover why he was unavailable that night, unreachable, but why go to the extreme of giving me hope in the process? Just fogese, tqt. There is no rhyme or reason.


"I have so much guilt in me."
(same conversation as above) Oh my word! THIS IS SO COMMON! WS's will fluctuate wildly from this, to justifying/rationalizing their actions with defensiveness and anger and blame and nastiness. Seemed like just when I'd get the soft look in my eye, because he was telling me how much guilt he had, he would lash out at me and push me away again. Wierd, strange, and exhausting.


"I was just saying to myself, why am I doing this?"
(said as she was packing, day before moving out) I'm sure she was saying that to herself. See, part of her remembers you and your M. Part of her is comforted by that familiarity, that history, IMO. Part of her brain, the part that YOU know, that is clearly not calling the shots right now, is dumbfounded by her own actions. It is the duality of the WS. Their actions are not matched up with their core values. Stange behavior results from that, IMO.


"I love you like I should love a husband I've been with for 24 years"
(said the morning of moving day) More of the above. She remembers, she knows that her love for you is the attachment love, the deep contented love, not the romantic/lust love she has for OM.


"Why didn't you just tell me to go away for a month a long time ago"
(said the morning of moving day. 1-year lease signed on townhouse) Um, not sure what the context is here. Was she saying you should have encouraged her to seek some space, before she had the A, to help her deal with her internal problems? Or is she saying that you let her stay and waffle too long? Pushing responsibility for their happiness and wellbeing is a common WS tactic, IMO. Dodge, evade, etc.


"I've never tried (at our marriage)."
(said within a day or two of moving out; can't remember if before or after) Perhaps this is an area that you could persue if she brings it up again. "Dear, until this happened, I didn't realize that professional guidance could benefit us and our M. I don't know if I have really "tried," either. If/when you end your A with OM, I am interested in pursuing this to help us rebuild our M. I don't want that old M we had, either. I want something better, stronger, healthier, than either of us even knew was possible. I know this is possible, because I have read about it happening in others' lives. I am committed to trying that with you, when/if you are ready." My faith, my belief, that our M could not only be saved, but rebuilt better than ever, gave my H a LOT of hope when he was ready to come home. I had a vision, a plan, and I think that really helped him along. He didn't have to figure all that stuff out. He was busy enough figuring out all the stuff in his head just so he could come home!


"Nothing I've done can be undone."
(said about a month +/- ? after moving out) No, it can't. Nothing you have done/said can be undone, either, tqt. What a wonderful learning opportunity! There are two sides to each sitch, two sides to each coin. Like I told you in my last post, I cannot think of one single event that could have propelled my H and myself forward so quickly AND completely as his A. It is painful, and wouldn't inflict one on my worst enemy, BUT, once it is done, it is a great chance to get everything cleared out, cleaned up, and reorganized.


"Once you leave you can never go back, right?"
(said about a month +/- ? after moving out) I would just tell her what I told my H. I don't put limits like that on my love for him, on our M. Because I would hope there is not one single thing I could ever do, either, that would "ruin" my chances of redemption. IMO, there is nary a path in life that we cannot flip a U-turn on and go back the other way, and choose another path. Perhaps taking a life, but not an A, IMO. I think if her having an A were a total deal-breaker for you, you would have never bothered posting on MB.


"I'm just not happy."
(phone conversation, in tears, about 3-4 weeks ago) Yeah, you get that message! You hear that one loud and clear! And you know what? You are giving her the time and space she needs to figure out just what will make her happy. Once my H was left to make that decision for himself, he realized his happiness did NOT reside in the OW. Their relationship did not align with his core values. All him and OW really knew about each other is that they are both liars. She thinks building a M with you on a firm foundation of love and honesty is hard??? HOW is she gonna deal with the crumbly, temporary, faulty foundation they have begun their A with? I mean really, logically, it just doesn't add up!


"Yes, I've thought about it."
(same conversation as above; said in response to me asking "Have you thought about talking with someone to help you sort things out.") "Well, WW, when you are ready, I know a place where you can go, day or night, and chat with other people who have been where you are. There is a place for you to post on a website, where I cannot go. It is the Reclamation board on Penny Tupy's site. She is also a marriage coach. She has been the WW, the BW, and the OW. I'm not saying you need to come back to the M. I'm saying these people can help you figure out what is good for you, help you to get your center back. Help you to be happy with yourself and your life again."


"That's what you're supposed to do, isn't it?!? Blame somebody else, not take responsibility for your own actions?!?"
(cell phone, Thanksgiving morning, said about something trivial, but clearly with other meaning somewhere...) Um, yeah, when you are a teenager! Ask her if she feels you do this, or if she is speaking of herself. This is so much fogese. I mean, it is a rhetorical question, and a silly one at that! This sentence means nothing, IMO. My fogese translator is all jammed up on this one. It is just a blank.


"It's too comfortable here."
(Said out of the blue, a couple weeks ago when she stopped back home. Yep... I hate being comfortable, too...) That sounds to me as if she is overwhelmed when she is in your home. Which to me is a good sign. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Basically, tqt, I see a lot of hope in your sitch. I see a WW who is confused and hurting. I see it as a good sign that it took her so long to move out. I think she is really torn. I think how this plays out depends a LOT on how you carry yourself in the coming weeks. Keep reading and posting.

Spidey

Spidey... you went above and beyond - again. Thank you

"Why didn't you just tell me to go away for a month a long time ago"
(said the morning of moving day. 1-year lease signed on townhouse)
Um, not sure what the context is here. Was she saying you should have encouraged her to seek some space, before she had the A, to help her deal with her internal problems?

To me it sounded like she was saying (along with the "why am I doing this?" blurb) "Why didn't you punish me and make me go away and get my $h!t together a long time ago, and then it wouldn't have come to this?"


"That's what you're supposed to do, isn't it?!? Blame somebody else, not take responsibility for your own actions?!?"
(cell phone, Thanksgiving morning, said about something trivial, but clearly with other meaning somewhere...)

Um, yeah, when you are a teenager! Ask her if she feels you do this, or if she is speaking of herself. This is so much fogese. I mean, it is a rhetorical question, and a silly one at that! This sentence means nothing, IMO. My fogese translator is all jammed up on this one. It is just a blank.

Uh-oh... if your Fogese Translator jams up, we're all doomed.
Could be the batteries(?) Still under warranty, or no? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

This one really thru me for a loop. It was like someone cut a little hole in her head, and her conscience came spurting out (sorry for the graphic). I can't help but think she was referring directly to destroying our M and blaming it all on me. I'm quite serious!


"It's too comfortable here."
(Said out of the blue, a couple weeks ago when she stopped back home. Yep... I hate being comfortable, too...)

That sounds to me as if she is overwhelmed when she is in your home. Which to me is a good sign.

Interesting. I never thought of that. I was thinking it meant "it's boring and dull here; my new life is/is going to be fun and exciting and all that happy horsesh!t forever and ever and ever!" MLC/teenager junk, IOW.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Basically, tqt, I see a lot of hope in your sitch. I see a WW who is confused and hurting. I see it as a good sign that it took her so long to move out. I think she is really torn. I think how this plays out depends a LOT on how you carry yourself in the coming weeks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for the encouragement, Spidey. Yes, I know I SAW a WW who was confused and hurting. But... since I've gone dark on her, I don't see anything other than what my imagination conjures up!

How do I carry myself in the coming weeks, if I have no contact with her?
And then there's the "what about me?" factor --- as I've rambled on about, I feel things starting to change for/in ME.
I know you can't help me with that one... guess I'm feeling another sense of urgency, but this time it's not just about what she's doing/thinking/feeling, it's also what I'm doing/thinking/feeling... do you understand what I'm trying to say?

I do understand what you are trying to say. When I went through my phase of detaching from H, and my own self-discovery, I didn't know exactly what was going on at the time, either. It is so easy for me to sit here with my 20/20 vision and tell you I felt this and thought that, and I am so sure about it NOW. At the time, though, I remember wondering if I would even WANT my H/M after I was done with my transformation.

I remember that feeling very clearly. And until you follow that path, you won't know for sure what it means. I encourage you to look at your journey with hope and excitement, though. Once I let the fear, or anxiety go, about how I was going to feel in X amount of time, I really started enjoying myself.

I had a lot of time to myself that I had never had before. I didn't realize until H left that I didn't know what I liked to do in my free time! I knew what H liked, what the boys liked, because that is what I did. I rarely went out by myself, unless to a girlfriend's house for a Pampered Chef party, or something like that. It just didn't occur to me. My H has always supported me in every way, I just didn't even know that I needed that. Isn't that crazy??!!

I thought, well, if I have to be alone for an unknown period of time anyway, I should make the best of it. Because even if the M didn't work out with H, I wanted to be able to create a strong, healthy R in the future. Either way, I had to learn about me, about R's, about communication, about the general differences between men and women.

In fact, when my H came back home, I had to find time to be with him! I was very booked up with friends and family, and just myself in general. My phone was always ringing, people checking on me to make sure I was doing OK, find out what I was up to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can't help but think she was referring directly to destroying our M and blaming it all on me. I'm quite serious! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She probably was! Classic fogese. My H actually went into a MC session, in the beginning when he was just going to "do the right thing" and "make the D better," he actually blamed the fact that I enjoy watching the tennis majors on TV for our estrangement! Before that day, he had alwasy supported me in my ONE sports addiction. I remember just staring at him with my mouth open, thinking WTF??? Yep, dropped the f-bomb on that outrage.

Yet here he was, telling the counselor all this crap, that he never loved me, that he realized he was adding insult to injury by 1)cheating on me with my FBF, then 2)leaving me and the boys, then 3)telling me he had never loved me and I was just the best he thought he could do, then 4)we M'd too young and for all the wrong reasons - then gets up to pay the woman and my picture is still front and center in his wallet where it has been for 15 years! The man wouldn't even wear the wedding ring (THAT hurt bad), but there I was, each time he opened his wallet. And, TRUST me, he opens it a LOT.

Honestly, once you detach, you will enjoy not being in the chaos. The words alone are exhausting. They are not rational, not based in any kind of fact. But they are kinda like a brain teaser, like you can ALmost believe, ALmost understand, but then . . . you just can't. And after I detached, I could detect the fogese RIGHT away. My tolerance for it was gone. And it didn't affect me like it had. For an instant I would get upset, then I was like, "What is he talking about? It is fogese!" And I would dismiss.

The last fogese that had any power over me was when H used to threaten to D me, and take the kids away from me, and make me live in an apartment (he threatened this in MC, too. Right after I told a friend, "Well, at least it can't get any worse." DON'T SAY THAT! So, it is #5 on the above list, BTW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ) if I didn't stop exposing the A. The OW was putting great pressure on him to "control me." Well, his threats worked. He would say, "You can't afford the house by yourself, if I don't stay in it we'd have to sell it, blah blah blah."

So, I took the advice here at MB and made me an appointment with a lawyer. I made it very clear I was interested in information, not filing D. I was told that if I didn't stay in the home, as the primary caregiver, that neither of us could. That our state has spousal support, and to not worry about keeping the house or the kids.

So, next time we were at MC, he starts in with the same speech, and it had no effect on me - AT ALL. I just sat there, laughing on the inside, realizing that he was blowing smoke up my a$$! Up his own, probably, as I think he really believed all that stuff at the time. Sure enough, without me even saying anything to him about the lawyer, that was the last time he mentioned that, because he got no reaction out of me.

WS's are strange, strange animals. I hope you don't mind, but I pointed a FBH over here who I thought could give you the "man" insight. I warned him, Shattered Dreams, that we are both fairly long-winded (OK, mostly just me), and that he would need some time to get through your thread. I know he will have some terrific insight for you.

Keep on keeping on!

Spidey

tqt

Wow! Just read your thread, and it reminds me of where my FWW was a year ago. As Spidey says, she was "feather plucking insane".

Classic WS symptoms, rude, crass, beligerant, not even the person I once knew, not in her eyes, her words or her actions.

I found MB in Dec 03, and lurked for a couple of weeks, then started posting, and bought and read the book. I decided Plan A was my best chance at allowing my WW to see me "through" the fog. I did a heavy duty introspection session, and decided there were several things about me, that didn't make me a very good H. I set forth with a vengence to change those things.

I also took every chance I had to make deposits in WW's love bank. I know for you, while seperated, it's more difficult, but, it's not impossible. It took me several months to get my now FWW's attention. And it was slow, ever so slow that she came around. Your efforts at Plan A will need to be done with resolve, done consistantly, and done for several months. Are you up to the task?

What have you seen about yourself that may have made you a lesser H than your W expected? What have you done to accept responsibility for those actions? Have you apologized to your WW for those actions, and assure her you have/will change them?

What actions have you taken to make deposits in your WW's love bank? Have you sent her a copy of the lyrics to a song that was once "yours"? Have you sent a card or flower to her lately, just because? Have you let her know you love her, without drooling on her or smothering her with neediness? Are you willing to be more intelligent and creative about this process, so she WILL notice your efforts?

This is about total committment. This isn't about wishing and hoping this or that goes your way. This is about making yourself take another step each day, trying to solve the mystery of why WW is not living with you, and doing everything in your power to SHOW her there IS a place for her to return. A safe, loving place, where love is real, not fantasy.

It's not an easy path, but it's the one you must choose if you are to move forward.

Best wishes,
SD

Thanks Spidey, and thanks Shattered!
Shattered, I've read your posts many times, and it's an honor and a privelege to have you stop in!
Spidey has been AWESOME in helping me, and as she says, we're both a little long-winded (I prefer to call it...thorough <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )
Thanks for taking the time to read...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your efforts at Plan A will need to be done with resolve, done consistantly, and done for several months. Are you up to the task?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I think I'm (still) up to the task -- this has been going on now for nearly 10 months. But, I'm not really in Plan A, by definition. Spidey and others suggested I basically back off and go dark, which I started last Sunday. (back to that in a second)

In answer to your other questions... yes, I've done all the soul-searching, WW knows that I love her and want her to come home; she knows I've forgiven her (well... with some qualifications, at this point...); she has seen and commented about things that have changed for the better.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is about total committment. This isn't about wishing and hoping this or that goes your way. This is about making yourself take another step each day, trying to solve the mystery of why WW is not living with you, and doing everything in your power to SHOW her there IS a place for her to return. A safe, loving place, where love is real, not fantasy.

It's not an easy path, but it's the one you must choose if you are to move forward.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">All makes perfect sense, of course... BUT, our contact has been minimal for the last month. I've actually seen her maybe 4 times since she left 10/4, and only once in the last month. (when she agreed to meet for dinner, and she blew everything up -- I did an excellent Plan A throughout the evening, in spite of it.)

Last contact was when I called her last Sunday evening, which was the culmination of my "Plan A" strategy (this round of it, anyway); where I was being more proactive about contacting her, and basically making LB deposits as best I could. Anyway, she was friendly during the phone call, then proceeded to go out of her way to tell me she had a date-of-sorts planned with OM. I ended the phone call at that point.

No contact all week -- I think the longest stretch of NC since she left.

And just when I thought it was safe to leave the toilet seat up... lo and behold... WW called and left a voicemail this morning.
Her msg said"
"Good morning, tqt. You must be working out or something... I got a letter from the IRS and I wanted to talk to you about it (not sure what that is; we have no tax issues -- unless WW did something stupid, which I doubt), and see what you're doing and all that happy stuff. I'm going to the office this morning and have some errands and stuff to do today, but try to call me when you get a minute, if you're around and have a minute. Thanks, bye."

Her tone was, I guess, pretty friendly.

I have NOT called her back yet.

Now pondering my next move.......

Easy one, tqt.

Get her favorite Chinese carry out, and take it to her office, not two meals, just one, for her, and drop it off with a card stating you think of her every day, and miss her every day, and love her every day.

Drop it off with a smile and a wink, and tell her you'd love to stay a chat for a moment but you have a busy day... how would Sunday evening be to talk about the IRS.

What do you think???

SD

Wow, SD, that idea is AWESOME.

And goes along with what I have been thinking about this morning, after reading your first post (yes, tqt, we ARE thorough!). Minimizing contact is NOT Plan B. Plan B involves a letter, intermediaries, etc. I never did Plan B during our separation. I did not, however, initiate contact after the first 6 weeks.

After I detached, my INTENTION changed. Before, when I would do things that I considered Plan A, my MOTIVE was to try and turn H back to me. For instance, for Valentine's Day, I baked a HUGE batch of his favorite cookies, and gave him a card, from the BOYS (how thinly vieled was THAT attempt to manipulate his feelings?). To say the least, H was livid with my attempt to PUSH my way into his head and heart.

For his birthday, 2 weeks later, after the minimizing of contact, I was able to effectively Plan A. Did I make him his favorite German Chocolate cake from scratch like I usually do (I'm a decent cook, BTW)? Nope. I facilitated MY BOYS giving to their father, the only joy he got during that time was from them. We went to the store, they picked out the cake mix and frosting they wanted to for him (it WAS GC, but it was THEIR choice). We got home, and they made it ALL BY THEMSELVES! It was lumpy, bumpy, tilted, and ripped because they didn't wait for it to cool before frosting it. It was from THEM.

Then, we went and got 3 all-day passes for the local game place here in town that they all love to spend time at. All presented to H at his apartment, at a sleepover. I gave to him joy, without any expectation of return. Plan A.

I think detaching and minimizing contact can make intentions clearer, and can help you find your center, to make your Plan A attempts much more successful. IMO.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Get her favorite Chinese carry out, and take it to her office, not two meals, just one, for her, and drop it off with a card stating you think of her every day, and miss her every day, and love her every day.

Drop it off with a smile and a wink, and tell her you'd love to stay a chat for a moment but you have a busy day... how would Sunday evening be to talk about the IRS.

What do you think???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry SD! Just got this, and she's long gone from the office by now. Stopping by her office is a bold move anyway (although I have no problem being bold) b/c there's a good chance of seeing OM. His office is down the hall from WW. And, I haven't seen him since last December (pre-PA).


Here's what I'm thinking...

The last few interactions were:

1) she was angry, sarcastic, and crying at dinner about 10? days ago. Then said she acted that way b/c she knew she was hurting me (or some gibberish like that), and then said the infamous "It was painful to see you b/c I saw the hope in your face."

2) I forgot all about this one until just now:
Last Saturday, her mother was visiting (we get along great), I knew WW/mother were out shopping/whatever, and suggested we get together for a drink before they went wherever they were going for dinner, and then I could say hello to MIL. They both, historically speaking, love to do that. (ok, so my plan sounds not-so-good as I think back... but I was in pseudo-pursuit mode at the time, and had few opportunities). ANYWAY... WW turned me down, fairly emphatically.

3) Last Sunday evening I called her, and she in no uncertain terms when out of her way to tell me she's still seeing OM. Based on that information, I ended the phone call.


She's probably been a bit surprised that I went a week without contacting her.
So, presumably, this IRS letter was her excuse to break our NC, and to make sure I'm still around(?). If the letter was anything important, I think she would've told me more about it.

If, after hearing from her, I do a 180 and immediately show up with gifts, ILU's, etc... something about that bothers me(?)

It sure feels like a little puppy dog thing, at this point. From my vantage point, anyway.

Admittedly, though, I'm a bit confused....


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think detaching and minimizing contact can make intentions clearer, and can help you find your center, to make your Plan A attempts much more successful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think I'm Plan A-ing, am I? The A continues... And I have to respect my own boundaries, don't I?
Unless she's REALLY messed up, she still knows what my intentions are.

I sound rebellious here, I know. Or perhaps argumentative... and I know you guys are trying to help me (and you are!).

I'm in a much better "place" than I was just a couple weeks ago. I've been in Hell for the last 10 months, and have finally managed to regain some pieces of myself -- all those pieces that WW mangled up thru this ordeal.

So... maybe my confusion is... trying to come up with a strategy that not only seems to have the best chance of success, but also preserves the gains that I've finally -- and just recently -- been able to realize.

I'm drawing a big huge blank...

Sorry to be difficult <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

tqt, first off, you are not being difficult.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I sound rebellious here, I know. Or perhaps argumentative... and I know you guys are trying to help me (and you are!). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is about you and your sitch. We are simply bouncing ideas off you, coming at you from more than one perspective. Which I think you want. YOU are the ultimate decision-maker, though.

As far as Plan A'ing, you should be, unless you are going to go to Plan B. Plan B requires a Plan B letter, and also you would need to set someone up as an intermediary, for such things as she has called you for today ~ business.

Plan B is NO CONTACT, DARK DARK DARK. Your Plan B letter would stipulate what would need to happen for your WW to come home and begin working on rebuilding the M with you.

Limiting contact, as I thought you were wanting to do, pulls you out of "pursuit, protector, knight-in-shining-armour" mode. It gets her attention, makes her curious, lets her remember you in the positive ways. Therefore, when you do do something Plan A-ish, NOT manipulative to get her to come back to you, it actually deposits LU in her LB.

So, what part are you confused about? Have you sent her a Plan B letter? Is that the direction you want to go? If I were you, IMVHO, I would try the limited contact for a while. Do not initiate any contact. See what kind of results you get from that. If it is more of the same, and you are continuing to lose your love and respect for your WW, then you can move to Plan B.

So, what do you think of all of that??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

***edited to add, OH YEAH! How are you going to handle her request for contact? Do you have a natural inclination to do one thing over another? Or should we brainstorm that? Or . . . I am drawing a blank! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ December 18, 2004, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

tqt

Please understand I'm no expert at this. As SS said, all we can do is offer our perspective from what we know from our own experiences, what we've read here, and apply it to what you've told us here.

My thoughts are to think in very creative and upbeat ways to get your WW to look your way. Change those bad behaviours you had in the past. Eliminate all Love Busters, including ending phone calls abruptly when she indicates she's going to be with the OM. Turn it around on her, and make it a challenge. Take the drama out of it, be emotionally detached. After all, it's NOT your wife, but a fog=bound creature you hardly recognize. Treat her in like fashion.

Tell her in a positive manner that it'd be lovely if she'd go to a game with you, but say it without any teeth or negative connotation, or in a needy manner. Maybe she'd really like for you to invite her to do something. Leave relationship talks for later. All your thoughts and actions should be geared to remind your WW that your were FRIENDS before your were marriage partners. Go for the creative, out of the box, courting actions you did years ago. What did she like about you then? Your sense of humor, athletic skills, money (kidding), go to those items and fluff yourself up in her eyes, but WITHOUT EXPECTING ANY RESPONSE WHATSOEVER. Plan A means giving with loving unselfishness, and expecting NOTHING in return.

Most WS state that this action confused them, when looking back at things after reconciliation. These things you do don't matter, one thing at at time, the results are cumulative, they add up to mean one BIG thing. The BS still loves them, will take them back, and ultimately forgive them and allow a chance for reconciliation. Isn't that all you are asking for?

Gear all of your thoughts and more importantly your actions to this end. Follow this course with a passion. Look outside your marriage for your own entertainment (not of the relationship kinds, mind you), in other words, don't count on your WW to jump on the bandwagon and help immediately. They come out of the fog ever so slowly, and progress must be measured in months, not days or weeks.

It's an on the job training exercise, and you have to cleverly pick your path as you go. It's hard and it has many discouraging moments. But you should seek interaction, IMHO, with your WW, and make those the golden moments to place deposits in her LB$. Invite her to her favorite restaurant to discuss the IRS. Read her words and actions carefully. They always give you little clues when you talk with them. Pay close attention to what is REAL vs. the FOG. Let the fog statements roll off your back. They mean NOTHING and cannot harm you. After all, it's not your WIFE uttering those remarks.

Keep all these moments pleasant and upbeat. Let her know your life hasn't STOPPED because of her actions. Let her know, by your demeanor, that your will be just fine moving on without her, even if you know it's not true. Her reality right now is all fantasy based. If she believes you can move on without her, it will cause her consternation and doubt.

Use all of these things to make a huge project out of little positive pieces, and don't give up.

You can do this. I have. So have many others. YOu have to believe in you, first, to make it work.

Are you up for this challenge?

Best wishes,
SD

<small>[ December 18, 2004, 04:35 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

My latest thoughts...

I just can't go too far trying to meet her EN's when she's sleeping (presumably!) with another man.
Just can't do it.
I think she's either GONE for GOOD, or, she hasn't resolved ANYTHING.

I sent her an email about 10 days ago, and I don't think I posted anything about it.
I don't remember exactly where it fit in the sequence of events, but it was a Sorta-Plan-A letter...told her -- again, and for maybe the last time -- that I want her home, that she CAN come home, we can make it work, I love her BUT NOT WW-her, etc.

Not too mushy, not threatening, not LB'ing... but I made it clear that it was the REAL her that so long ago I wanted to spend my life with, and it was the REAL her that I still do want to spend my life with.

OK... so, she KNOWS everything she needs to know... whether or not she CARES is unknown.
Fact is, she's still addicted to, and hey, maybe even TRULY HAPPY with OM, and with her new life.


As you know, I'm starting to check out... a little more each day. I really don't know how much of that is a conscious EFFORT, and how much is purely involuntary/subconcious and me just being human. (hate when that happens)

She's been gone 2-1/2 months. I can't wait around forever. But a Real Plan B will NOT work, I don't think. ??

The one thing I have NOT tried -- consistently and for any length of time, is:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would try the limited contact for a while. Do not initiate any contact. See what kind of results you get from that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes. I'm thinking... let her miss me. Might be futile, maybe she won't... but the way things have been going, she hasn't had that much of a CHANCE to miss me. And like you said -- let OM try to meet her needs.

This may backfire -- she is fully capable of convincing herself of this: "Oh, well, he doesn't really care anyway; and he's doing fine. I DID make the right decision, and now I don't even feel that guilty about it, either."

Call it a Modified Plan B. Modified in the sense that IF she contacts me, I'll respond -- generally after some delay -- and be just friendly enough but no lovey-dovey crap, and then cut the conversation VERY short.

MAYBE it's simple... IF she's thinking of coming back, she may need a "dose of reality" to get herself to muster up the courage and make some sort of move. The dose of reality being: she senses that I'm slipping away and closing the door for good.

At the SAME time I ramble on about all this... there's a huge part of my gut that's telling me... She Ain't Comin' Back.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OH YEAH! How are you going to handle her request for contact? Do you have a natural inclination to do one thing over another? Or should we brainstorm that? Or . . . I am drawing a blank!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">According to the book I just bought ("When Nothing Else Works: How to Save Your Marriage by Flailing Aimlessly, Applying Random Strategies, and Otherwise Just Winging It") it says I should return her call tomorrow (she's probably w/ OM now, for the evening. Yeeehaaa.) and be friendly, ask right away about the letter, then "ok thanks, oh, sorry, gotta go"


And I was JUST beginning to think I was NOT losing my mind........

Off to the gym, hoping against hope that my new fantasy girlfriend is there <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> , and then to replenish my B-vitamins which can only be found swirling around in a container of barley, malt, and hops. Lots of hops. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Comments... criticism... corrections... all welcomed...

SD, you've given me a lot to think about, and I appreciate it.

Having trouble getting a grip on one thing you said, though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Eliminate all Love Busters, including ending phone calls abruptly when she indicates she's going to be with the OM. Turn it around on her, and make it a challenge. Take the drama out of it, be emotionally detached. After all, it's NOT your wife, but a fog=bound creature you hardly recognize. Treat her in like fashion.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">During this phone call, I deposited a couple thousand $'s into her love bank... then she went out of her way to tell me she had plans with OM.

In one sense, I understand exactly what you're saying. But... if I were to handle the conversation the way you suggest, am I not effectively condoning the A in some twisted, roundabout way? What about my "boundaries," self-respect, etc....?

I'm not making my point very well, but I'm really struggling with this aspect of it.

(thinking out loud, b/c I do want to figure this out...) Could it be something about my situation... WW's UNIQUE character...history... MY character... something that makes the scenario you describe feel just not "right" in some way?

hmmmm.... as I venture off to think, think, and think some more... thanks, SD for your support.