<small>[ January 03, 2005, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

And now for a bit of groveling...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I say these things to you with nothing but the best intentions. Please know that.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, you KNOW I know that! Don't you?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You must do what you feel is right. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's what makes this all the more frustrating... I just don't know what is right. Therefore the venting. And please tell me you know my venting is/was NOT directed at you or your advice, Spidey!
Every single time you've posted -- you've helped me tremendously. And every single time I want to say "Thank you -- I appreciate your help (and your wisdom) more than you know."

I'm just going through a little rough spot, that's all. (er...wait...make that one big huge 10-month-long rough spot <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )


"If it feels intuitive, it's probably wrong."

I do remember that admonition well, but when I throw that in the blender with a couple of my own beliefs:

1) this is not a perfect science, and
2) there are always exceptions

then it gets messy. And stressful. I ask myself constantly -- am I missing what is perhaps the only way to help her to come home?
Worse yet, I'll probably never know the answer to that question.

After reading about so many different situations here, it seems like my WW is in the bottom 2% of WS's when it comes to communication. What I mean by that is: she says virtually NOTHING (other than her tantrums), even when there is contact. She offers NO relevant information, not even babble. That makes it even harder to "guess" what the "right" approach is.

Spidey... thanks for being so patient with me!

Spyder...temp thread jack.

HOPE : A desire of some good, accompanied with an expectation of obtaining it, or a belief that it is obtainable; an expectation of something which is thought to be desirable; confidence; pleasing expectancy.


Are you sure what I have is hope? sometimes I think it is the worse case of self-degradating, martyrdom I have eve seen. How do I know that I am the one not in touch with reality? When do you say this is horse crap and I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!!! When is it time to throw yourself a life jacket? I keep telling myself over and over....wait....wait...wait...steady....
and then I scream !!! What the hell do you think I am some piece of garbage you can toss aside?

My WH makes me feel so insignificant, often I don't think he deserves me. But is it really HOPE that brings me back?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> and then I scream !!! What the hell do you think I am some piece of garbage you can toss aside? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is your ego. That is the side of us that is for "protection." I challenge you to two things, Waiting. First, is your ego protecting you when it tells you to run run run far and fast right now??? You cannot outrun what has happened in your life. It sucks, because you didn't directly cause what has happened - but it is there nonetheless. So, will running help you in any way?

Second, I am challenging you to accept that NO BODY can MAKE you do ANYthing. Your WH cannot MAKE you feel a certain way. I cannot MAKE you change your name. The first thing my H and I learned in parenting class many years ago, and I learned AGAIN through my own experience with infidelity, is that if it lives, you cannot control it. You can influence, you can support, sometimes you can even bribe (my kids get electronic time for doing chores, getting good grades, behaving in a respectable manner (yes, I use the term loosely, they are 1)teenager and 2)pre-teenager BOYS, after all <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). You cannot control, ie, MAKE, anyone do anything.

Take back your power. You have given it all away. You are responsible for how you feel today. Your WH's love, or lack of it, should not be what you base your self worth on. Your H is an addict right now. You should pity him. Why should you feel poorly about yourself for being true to your M and your beliefs???

Silly girl.

tqt, I am not upset or anything. I didn't mean to come across that way. Most of the things when dealing with A's are counter-intuitive. That is why it is so hard to convince people to do them! Then when they do, they are converts, on here posting to others about what to do! It is so funny. I remember back in "the day" for me, I questioned and struggled just as you do now. And ARK and Pep and Confused & Scared, and star*fish, and Orchid, and MelodyLane, and WAT, and 2long, and 2oak, and believer, et al, counseled me the way I am couseling you. And I questioned and struggled more.

And I would go away from their counsel, and do what "felt right" to me, and it would go horribly wrong. Then after just a short time, I would forget my previous results and try the same thing over again, and it would end the same way. Finally, after 2 months, I figured it out. Whatever FEELS right, just do the opposite, and you will be successful. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

That's the way it seemed to me sometimes. I would REALLY want to contact H, so that's how I knew I needed to get busy and do something, because it was clearly the WRONG thing to do.

There are exceptions to the rules. For instance, since we were in MC, I was counseled to not go into Plan B. I was told to do as the MC instructed for contact. And I did. Also, when H came home, HE decided about how to establish NC with OW. That caused an uproar here, I tell you. EVERYone, without exception, told me to INSIST on a NC letter or email. H was considering doing it in person. Everyone here was like, "He needs to respect you, you have a say in this, it doesn't sound like he is ready," etc. BUT, I trusted our MC, and my H, and in the end, HE decided to send a NC email. It wasn't the way I would have written the letter, but it wasn't mine to write.

So I'm not strict-MB here. However, I do understand why the concepts are in place. I do know that I have yet to read how pursuing a WS who has moved out, has been successful. I think that is why they move out. I think it is there way of making a fresh decision about what they want to be doing with their life.

Hang in there, tqt. Keep questioning, keep posting. You are doing great. I know this is a hard time for you. And I think you are handling it wonderfully. I've told you before, that is why I think your WW will be back. I see so much hope in your sitch. Because when the chips are down, when the going gets tough, you are calm and steady like a rock. If I can see it from here, she has to be noticing over there. She is full of human nature, as well, tqt. If she wants to get back with you, she will probably face her fears of rejection and let you know she is interested.

Spidey

Spyder..funny you mention ego and protection. I am reading "Do I have to give up me to be loved by you". They talk a lot about the protection mode. I definately see it in my WH, but I am also seeing that my neediness and crying and wanting answers from him is my own way of controling him and protecting myself. I have never looked at the fact that my expecting him to feel my pain and do something about it is all about control. It is a way to blame and of course we all natural protect when we ae blamed.

He withdraws, I go on the offensive. I need to give him time to "soften" as they say in this book. One day down of NC and I feel good. Tonight I will go to the gym, and give a polite hello if he is there. The kids are not going as he probably is expecting. So he will not see them either (He usually only sees them there for about 2 minutes to say HI, otherwise he doesn't schedule time with them)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think it is their way of making a fresh decision about what they want to be doing with their life. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That reminds me of something else SIL said: "WW acted like a woman who didn't know what she was doing, didn't know where she was going, and didn't know what she wanted to do with her life."

Something to that effect.


We're on Day #8 with no contact -- the longest yet.
(I know that for so many others here, eight days is just a blip on the radar screen.)

Since nothing's happening, and writing does help regardless, I may as well dump some thoughts out, and make room for more.

I've been crashing... getting progressively lower since yesterday, and think I hit bottom a few minutes ago, and now I'm on my way back up. Gotta remember to get more Dramamine....


Seems like it's the OM's game to lose, at this point. He's got her full attention, and I'm sure he's keeping the pressure on her. He's a smooth talker, so his pressure is likely to be effective, rather than scaring her off. I'm afraid she doesn't have the wherewithal to escape even if deep down she wanted to. Between OM and WW, they destroyed a family and left a 14-year-old boy with a part-time father. After doing that, the OM's not about to let WW get away easily. And WW is carrying that guilt around with her every minute -- making it all the more difficult for her to leave OM.

Make no mistake... I'm still hopeful, dammit! ... but my gut tells me I'm crazy for being so.

Haven't slept more than a few hours each of the last 3-4 days, and the only reason I can think of is that I AM losing hope. I think my brain is taking advantage of the down-time, running full-tilt (and keeping me awake) trying to figure out how I'm going to get through The Official End of this thing...

Trying to emotionally detach seems futile. How can you spend 24 years with someone, love them to this day, want them to come back, and emotionally detach at the same time?

I guess I make a lousy single person. It's obvious that I have to change my whole way of thinking, planning, dreaming... it feels strange.

But I still can't imagine the rest of my life without her. I try to imagine it, just to the point when it starts to hurt too much.

I can't figure out in which direction to look... to the past 24 years, or to some as yet unknown future? Can't look back -- the best memories cause the most pain. The future is pretty scary too, although I have no doubts that I'll be just fine, no matter what happens.

Forgot whose thread it was, but yesterday? someone posted their final "goodbye" letter to their WW/XW.
It choked me up BIG-time, and made me realize how so very far from ready I am -- emotionally -- to do the same.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Make no mistake... I'm still hopeful, dammit! ... but my gut tells me I'm crazy for being so. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, tqt, in some ways we are twins! Except you are a boy, of course, and I am a girl. BUT, I used to vaccilate between hope and panic all the time. Kinda personal, but have you looked into Anti-D's? You might have already mentioned it, since we are so thorough, but I don't want to skim back 10 pages, because we are so thorough. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

When I went to the doctor, I actually wasn't depressed, in the clinical sense. I WAS very anxious. And my mind was doing the types of things you are describing to me. I took an AD that has an anti-anxiety side-effect ~ Lexapro. I took a very low dose, and stopped about a month after H came home, with little/no side effects. It helped my brain calm down, so that I could find my center.

Yes, the OM does have a "hold" on your WW now. BUT, you were with her for 24 years. She is not enjoying herself with him, as she did with you, IMO, for several reason. First and formost, as you have said, her guilt and shame. She is probably also feeling guilty about the choices the OM made regarding his own kid. As well as her guilt and shame about cheating on and lying to you.

That is why these A's usually die their natural deaths. My H's died before he was ready for it to, and he still clung to the remnants for 3 months.

Have faith in yourself, tqt. You can get through this. And M's recover all the time.

Has your WW even talked about D? What has she said about it?

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, tqt, in some ways we are twins! Except you are a boy, of course, and I am a girl.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, Sis! Is that YOU?!?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kinda personal, but have you looked into Anti-D's? You might have already mentioned it, since we are so thorough, but I don't want to skim back 10 pages, because we are so thorough. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were depressed, I wouldn't have the energy to ramble on ad nauseum in the guise of thoroughness, would I?

Actually, I did pick up some SJW, and have been taking it for about a month now. Not sure if it's doing anything. I'm ok though, Spidey. I'm pretty good at monitoring myself in that sense. Thanks for asking about it (and I don't think it's too personal).


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You can get through this. And M's recover all the time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know. I will prevail, one way or the other.
I'm not sure how concerned I should be about this, but I do feel a lot less sympathy for her than I did even a month ago. And I think it's being replaced with more resentment and disgust. And more anger, although that seems to come and go. I'll keep on eye on it, so to speak.

It was just at Thxgiving that I remember really thinking about what she's done to herself and her life, and I felt soooo terribly sorry for HER that I just broke down and cried.

I suspect that I won't be doing that again, though -- and I'm not sure what that means, if anything.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Has your WW even talked about D? What has she said about it? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting question. 10.5 months provides a lot of opportunities to bring it up, but no, she has NEVER mentioned the "D" word.
BUT...and it may be in this thread somewhere (hey, hell if I'm gonna look for it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )... *I* brought up the "D" word in a phone conversation a couple months ago. May have been just before Thxgiving. She was at OM's place, I let my guard down and LB'd a little, I suppose... said something like "if you want a D, why haven't you done anything about it yet?"
She flew off the handle, got angry, spewed out "oh!! is that what I'm supposed to do now?!?! Finish it off...?!?!? blah blah..."
Haven't heard anything since. Even with me setting the stage for it. Interesting, perhaps...

Thanks for being there, Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

tqt, the more I hear her wording, and kinda where her head seems to be, the more I really think you are on the right path with the limited contact thing. And I'll tell you why, too! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I don't think your WW wants a D. I think she is firmly in the cake-eating state of being a WS. Don't get me wrong, I don't think this is a "conscious" state. I think it is natural, that when an individual has put themselves in that much pain (because she is also in pain, don't ever doubt that), they can't help but accept any and all things that are given to them ~ i.e. any and all EN's that anyone in the triangle wants to meet for them.

The way to bump her off her fence she is sitting on, is by taking yourself out of the triangle. She will notice. You have met her EN's for 24 years. She is missing you, IMO. The OM cannot fill all her EN's. They have cut themselves off from most of the support systems they have used their whole lives.

I mean, think about it. Logically. Do you really think this OM is capable of providing for all her EN's? He can talk the talk, but can he walk the walk?

I know you are involved in the sitch right now, and it is harder for you to see. But an A relationship is so flimsy. It's like wearing a windbreaker in a blizzard. Staying in a tiny nylon tent with no sleepingbag in subzero temperatures! Yeah, we camp a lot, as you can tell by my winter cold analogies. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

The odds are definately with you right now. Especially since she doesn't seem to know what she wants. Could be the OM is getting a "taste" of not being M'd, and is looking around. Could be your WW doesn't feel too comfortable dating a man who lied and cheated out of his last relationship. Could be she is still trying to figure out how to swallow her pride and come back to you, or ask you for help.

BUT, these are things she does need to figure out on her own, IMO. You will know when/if she needs something from you. I remember the first REAL relationship talk me and H had, as he was beginning to come out of the fog, beginning to remember our history withOUT the fog-glasses, beginning to realize how much energy it took for him to keep the fantasy going ~ we started getting into a heated argument, and he started walking away, but he didn't leave. I said, "Wait, let's talk this out." And he turned around and came back and talked. Before that night, he ran away (not really RUN, but he would always back out and leave ~ ALWAYS).

You will notice a difference. I know 8 days seems like an eternity. You must take it one day at a time. Also realize that you are as addicted to her, as she is to OM. If you expect her to go through withdrawals from him, you must lead by example and get through your withdrawals of her. Make sense?

Hang in there. Keep posting. You are doing GREAT!!!

Spidey

TQT, MB'r formerly known as WaitingWithoutHope here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure how concerned I should be about this, but I do feel a lot less sympathy for her than I did even a month ago. And I think it's being replaced with more resentment and disgust. And more anger, although that seems to come and go </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sure this is just the first of many cycles you will go thru. I personally had the anger and resentment first. Now I feel sorry for him because he truely is a lost soul. Shallow to throw 17 years away. Empty. And with each day I am not with him, I realize that his problems are NOT MY PROBLEMS. I honestly feel so much better not being around him, because when he is around the lack of love is so apparent it is agonizing.

24 years is a long time and you will never be able to push those memories out of your head. They are a vital part of who you are, just as the pain that they cause is very vital to who you are. Allow yourself to feel everything. You sound like someone with a good head on their shoulders, but I never hear you talk about friends and family. Do you share your heart with others? Sometimes just being with someone who is aware and supportive can be the best medicine around. Your dogs can listen but they can not commiserate. Funny....when my WH stops by, the amount of affection he gives to the dog is way more than I have ever gotten. It actually bothers me to watch.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you really think this OM is capable of providing for all her EN's? He can talk the talk, but can he walk the walk? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, my first thought is: why not?
He supposedly met his XW's EN's for 20 years(?)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could be the OM is getting a "taste" of not being M'd, and is looking around. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you mean looking around for another woman? I seriously doubt that.
I think he's probably real proud of himself for grabbing "a hot babe" -- and isn't about to let her go.
WW is v e r y attractive, and OM is the kind of guy that always needs to be the center of attention, always needs to "look good" to everybody. To an extreme. It's called insecurity, low self-esteem, emotional immaturity. I could see right thru the guy the first time I met him.
So, anyway... I'm sure he's impressed with himself.

Some of this stuff I write makes me sick to my stomach.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could be your WW doesn't feel too comfortable dating a man who lied and cheated out of his last relationship.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True. When I went thru the "reasoning" stage with WW, I pointed that kind of thing out to her. Asked her if that's the kind of character she wanted in a man. Told her what OM's STBXW told me: that OM told his W "I'm interested in several different women." What kind of miserable, pathetic P.O.S. person would say that to his W of 20 years and the mother of his son??!?
I told WW she was being used. And as I've said before, WW NEVER defended OM. To my "you're being used" comment, she replied "maybe you're right."

Another thought:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could be your WW doesn't feel too comfortable dating a man who lied and cheated out of his last relationship.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Maybe, but then again, she did the same thing.
I would think there has to be some kind of "bonding" between A partners in that sense. In other words, they share something huge, regardless of how sick it is.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could be she is still trying to figure out how to swallow her pride and come back to you, or ask you for help.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she tries to swallow her pride, I'm guessing she'll choke. Massive amounts of pride. It's false, though, if that makes sense. One time in the thick of things, several months ago, she said she hated herself. And I think she was talking about more than just the A. She's also said that one of the reasons she doesn't want anyone to "get inside her head is because they'll find out what a terrible person she is."

As far as asking for help, well... she doesn't score too well there, either. Guess that's her pride again. And, a really extreme lack of humility. She's always been afraid to be human, make mistakes, and not know everything... got that from her father.

How sad...

OK, so I do still feel sorry for her.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BUT, these are things she does need to figure out on her own, IMO. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But I do know that some people NEVER figure these things out. They may start to get close... but reality becomes too painful, and they back away.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will notice a difference. I know 8 days seems like an eternity. You must take it one day at a time. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I get the feeling that something's changed -- with her -- since 12/27 (our last conversation). I have no idea what it might be.
If she doesn't contact me by the end of this weekend, then I'd bet that SOMEthing significant is going on, at least in her head.

Hi Homer/formerly WWH!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">24 years is a long time and you will never be able to push those memories out of your head. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">With or without my wife, I will move onward and upward. But knowing that all those memories will in some way or another cause me pain for the rest of my life -- that is hard to deal with.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You sound like someone with a good head on their shoulders, but I never hear you talk about friends and family. Do you share your heart with others? Sometimes just being with someone who is aware and supportive can be the best medicine around.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I do. My family has been sooooo great and soooo supportive through all this. And I'm lucky enough to have a couple friends close enough to share everything with, too. (both women, naturally!)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Your dogs can listen but they can not commiserate. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, WW has the dogs (our "kids"). I do miss them <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
And one of them actually does do a pretty good job of commiserating. Last time WW was at the house with the dogs, the poor little girl (the dog, not WW) spent most of the time just staring up at me... like she was saying "I want to come home!"
Heard thru the grapevine she bit OM when she met him. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny....when my WH stops by, the amount of affection he gives to the dog is way more than I have ever gotten. It actually bothers me to watch. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believe me... I understand exactly what you're saying!

My WH made the comment that when he comes over even the dog looks at him funny. I told him dogs weren't stupid. She knows something isn't right.

All I can say is he prefers the dog because she doesn't talk and ask him all the WHY's. She looks up at him with those sweet eyes and wags her tail. She loves him unconditionally. Considering I haven't filed for a D I would say I do too. But I am working on that. I have to realize he is not an expressive verbal person, and when I try to force him to open up I am sending him the message that I think there is something wrong with him. ie. Narcissim.

I applaud you going on 8-9 days of NC. I was on day 2 and feeling pretty good when WH emails with a trivial ques. Stops by the house at noon and leaves a note that he got the snowblower ready for the weather moving in (How sweet, I got up and shoveled.) Then he stops over to put in a new spark plug last night, and proceeds to tell me a lie about being at the gym.

I still count today as day 3 for my effort. I am booked tomorrow but the weekend will be tough!!

"As you make your way through life, let this ever be your goal, keep your eye upon the doughnut and not upon the hole."

Yes, the weekends are the roughest, by far. And thanks for the applause, but I'm still nervous about 9 days of hearing nothing from her.

So nervous, in fact, that I'm formulating new theories about WHY she hasn't called, probably to come up with an excuse to call her...


I was just reading Mortarman's Update post, and this caught my eye:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
We both cried, with her saying “I didn’t know you cared.” What??? How in the world didn’t she know I cared? Well, I thought about it. Fog, fog, fog, fog, fog!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And that's pretty much my latest theory. I didn't call WW on Xmas, called her not 'til 10:30PM on her birthday, didn't call her New Year's Eve or Day. Is it possible she thinks I've given up? Or that I don't care anymore? Did she not believe what I said on 12/27 ("We love each other...")

Then, the way my mind works... I'm starting to weigh the pros/cons of calling her vs. not calling her.
What "damage" could be done by calling her? Versus the potential "damage" of disappearing on her?

Spidey, I may need another dose from you...

Am I just enabling the A even more by slipping out of sight? Does she need constant reassurance from me that I still want her, believe in her, believe in us?

Or, on the other hand, is she absolutely, permanently GONE and she just can't get up the nerve to let me know(?) If she's gone for good, don't I have a right to know that, so I can continue on with MY life?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Spidey, I may need another dose from you... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay, here goes. Actually, let me use your own words . . .

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Am I just enabling the A even more by slipping out of sight? Does she need constant reassurance from me that I still want her, believe in her, believe in us? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, you are in NO WAY enabling her A right now. You are doing the opposite, in fact. You are calling your WW on the carpet, if you will. You are showing her the natural consequences of her actions, should she continue down the path she is on.

tqt, where is all your confidence when it comes to your WW? She is addicted to the OM. She M'd you because she loves you. Sooner or later, she WILL wake up to that fact. You are simply speeding up that process, IMO.

If you continue giving her constant reassurance that . . . you will support her while she is having an A . . . she will continue to have the A! Silly boy.

I know you have little faith that she can figure this out on her own, because of her past and current behavior. However, she has never put herself in this type of crisis before. This is rock bottom, tqt. These A's don't just change M's if they recover, they change the people IN the M's. This crisis is what it took to finally get my H to see the benefits of counseling, both IC and MC. This crisis is what it took to finally get my H to address his meltdowns over the years, and my support/enabling of these meltdowns!

And I'm not innocent, either. This crisis forced me to grow up, forced me to realize that I am enough for me, by myself. I literally had convinced myself that I would DIE if my H ever left me, either for another woman or if he died. Imagine my surprise the morning after D-day, when I woke up!HM!

Perhaps if you can envision her "growing up" and taking care of herself, she will be able to see it through your eyes. Remember, you are the only one in the M right now who has his wits about him. She is a goner, tqt. Her head is in la-la land right now. She needs you to lead by example right now, and she doesn't even know it.

Have you ever read this lighthouse post, by ARK, that I keep referring to? If not, I will copy it here. I saved it on my computer, because I HATE having to search this site, and so many people request it.

Spidey

Hmm...

Spidey, in response to your last post, I could write a book. It wouldn't sell more than half a copy, but that's beside the point <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'll restrain myself, and my fingers, and just say this...

A long time ago, someone who knew me better than anyone else on the planet said to me: "you have a compassionate understanding of human nature."

And naturally, I replied... "I do??!?"

NO!... I don't. But the subject fascinates me.

And ya know what? I don't have a CLUE what's going on in the head of THE one person to whom I dedicated my life -- my heart and soul and everything in between.

OK, I'm copying the lighthouse post here for you! Even if you've seen it before, it won't hurt to see it again. I've read it so many times, and each time it makes more and more sense to me. ARK was definately inspired the day she sat down and wrote this one out.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Lighthouse
Your spouse is in huge conflict....

the good news is and the truth is that they are totally incapable of a healthy relationship with anyone right now...

the competition we believe that exist with the OP is a shallow empty reflection of Gods light in this world...

It is empty and lonely no matter how good the rush

their actions are actions that they themselves do not like in themselves right now....though the need to go back again and again and attempt to prove themselves wrong or right is strong...they do not like what they are doing...

their actions towards you, the children, the OP, and themselves...keep them from engaging in any type of real interactions...with real depth and truth

all they offer are misguided attempts to fill the void that has appeared in their life...yet the filling is way too fleeting to sustain them and the truth is with them each night he or she lays down regardless of whom is next to them....

they are the living cliche..of no matter where you go to hide...there YOU are...

he or she is lost to themselves...

and you stand at that point of being the lighthouse home....even though they create the waves that block their vision from seeing that...

You become the lighthouse..you fill your home with light, calmness and sanctuary...

see just visualize yourself as a lighthouse...

Your offer them glimpses into that sanctuary at every chance you get...you invite them towards it...let them know it is there as much as you can in a most subtle way....

they are untrustable right now...
but you know that...so they can't hurt you right now...they will spend great energy to convince others differently...but you know better...

you show the path by also protecting the children from their painful actions.....
set clear boundaries that the OP is not part of your childrens lives....
without lovebusting...
offer alternatives that let them see the children...but be clear that the OP is to have no access to them...

you fill the childrens lives with stability....they deserve it and need it more than anything else....

Do not discuss and or powerstruggle with them on irrational movements...seek out and validate the rational ones with lots of praise for when he or she chooses correctly....

your spouse is very lonely and sad right now..but that is OK...no one can stay very long in that chaos...it is wearisome to the soul...
and remove yourself from any aspect of participating or adding to the chaos...and eventually they will see that you are the only one...who stood with clarity and reason when they needed it most...

be the lighthouse....
OK that's really out there I know....

hope that helps
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now tell me that isn't the greatest post! I am soothed all over again. *sigh*

Spidey

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 07:59 AM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

Thanks for the lighthouse post, Spidey. I did read it before, but it's been a while. It most definitely is inspiring, as you say!

WW and I have climbed many lighthouses on various vacations thru the years... on our honeymoon, too.
We also spent a bunch of summers on our boat. WW was a very good navigator.
And... she knows that you have to LOOK FOR these aids to navigation -- particularly in bad weather...fog...

CAN I be a lighthouse if there's ZERO contact of any kind?

It's been a full 10 days now. For us, 10 days is huge. She's not acting like someone who is afraid to lose me forever.

Would you agree, or no?

Angry, frustrated, running-out-of-patience vent follows.......


from Dreamcatcher (FWW) on MIF?'s thread:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
LM had a good point...thinking back to the mindset I was in at that point of my life...having my H being 'understanding' and allowing me to fence-sit, knowing that he was sitting back and giving me the choice of whether to end the A or keep both him and the OP on the hook would have kept me in the 'fog' longer...not giving advice here..just saying that as long as she knows she can fulfill the fantasy with the OP and you'll still be there to work things out if she chooses...well, you do the math..

I hope your WW wakes up before it's too late, she does have a lot to lose...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I'm sitting here thinking to myself... what AM I doing? What AM I waiting for?
Am I waiting for WW to end her affair?
Am I waiting for WW to tell me she wants a D?

This seems more and more insane as time goes on.
Slowly but surely I feel myself wanting to put this M out of its misery once and for all.
I deserve better.

I don't think there's any FOG at this point. I think it boils down to a selfish, immature, narcissistic, emotionally stunted woman.

(said endearingly, of course!)

The OM's XW (at the time STBXW) said to me: "Let her go. I don't even love my husband any more. They deserve each other."
Maybe she was right.

I gave my wife 24 years of my life. The last year or two of it as she's deceived me, betrayed me, lied to me, and gave all of herself to another man. I forgave her for doing to me the Worst Possible Thing she could do to me. But she continued to betray me, and lie to me, and deceive me.

All she has to do now is say one of two things: I want a divorce, or, I don't want a divorce. I can deal with either one. Is that asking too much?

I know I'm supposed to "detach" and "work on myself" and "move on."

Is that what I tell the, for example, attractive young woman at the gym who seems to have some interest in me?
"Uh, yeah, well... ummm.. I've been married for 21 years, still am, not sure what the REAL status of my marriage is, but I'm just sorta hangin' out waiting for my adulterous wife to quit screwing this other guy and come back to me. In the meantime, wanna go on a date with me?"


Not sure whether to post this or not.... WTH...

Okay, tqt, if you are done waiting, then you need to initiate the separation/D process. I do not want to hear another word about you going on a date while you are still M'd. OK???? That is what we work soooooo hard here for ~ no dating another person while married to another.

These are all decisions you must make on your own. Yes, you can be the lighthouse with no communcation/contact. She is watching you, IMO. She is processing.

I actually think you are no longer supporting her A, since you have withdrawn out of the triangle, the chaos. I think you are doing what FWW advised to do - you are telling your WW it is NOT Ok with you to fence-sit, to cake-eat. You have withdrawn all your support of her.

You have NO idea what is going through her mind right now. Think about it, tqt ~ 10 days. What is 10 days? I understand you have been going through this for a long time. I understand that other people who hear what we put up with to save our M's think we are totally bonkers. I understand all of it!

Please give this limited/no contact more time. Please wait and see. Just keep keeping on. You have friends and family to talk to. You have a gym membership. There is no rush to "date." I know it FEELS like there is, but there isn't. Please take it from someone who is on the other side of this thing, and my perspective on it now.

Because, one way or the other, you will have this perspective one day. You will not always feel as you do now, as you have the past 1 or 2 years. You will be happy again, you will LIVE again, you will feel joy again. Please don't do anything now, in your terribly hurt state, that will cause you to have the regret that your WW will carry with her, to some extent or another, her entire life.

Keep posting here. Keep venting here. Keep NC going. You are right. Your WW might get through this NC time and realize that she wants the D. She might go another 2 days and realize that she can't take it anymore, she'll give up the OM and everything else just to spend one more day with you.

My sitch looked hopeless until right before H came home. Literally, mine went from "I want a D, I am sure of it," to "I remember what a great team we were, and I remember how easy it was to be with you," in a 3 week period. WTH???

You won't know it will happen, until it does. If you want it badly enough, you will wait. If you are done, you are done. BUT, please do NOT break your vows and your commitments that YOU made, just because she did. You will only hurt you.

Hang in there, tqt! I'm here for you.

Spidey