Spidey, I'm going to ask that you stop reading this right now, and go tell your H what a lucky man he is. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Didyadoit? OK... thanks.


Once again, everything you say makes sense. Stop it, would ya??!


As far as "dating" goes... I haven't had one of those "real" "dates" in... 23? years. I'm JUST a bit out of practice <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
As much as I try, though, I remain a regular old human guy, and... I haven't felt loved -- in every sense of the word -- and haven't been able TO love -- in a LONG TIME now. That goes against my grain... to the core...

Another problem here is that I'm not 25. I'm not 35. Not sure how it happened, and I sure don't feel like it, but... I'm forty-five. Yikes. I was 20 when I first met my wife, and I was smitten with her from the first time I laid eyes on her, up until the day I helped her move half our furniture into a U-Haul truck and watched her drive away.

Is all that gibberish an argument for giving it "just a little more time," or does it make me think "OMG, I've been there for her, and given and given and given, and dedicated SO much of my life... to who I thought was, and oh-so-much wanted her to be, the Love of My Life. And it's been destroyed. 24 years of my life down the drain. Gotta move on -- gotta try to reclaim as much of my life as possible... There's someone out there for me, and I can't waste another day."

OK, I know I sound like an idiot.

I don't like any of this. I'm sure just like you, and everyone else here, I keep saying to myself "This wasn't supposed to happen to me. This is the LAST thing I ever expected to happen to our marriage."
ALL she had to do, at whatever point she became unhappy about WHATEVER she was unhappy about, was to SAY something.

And even TODAY, after all she's done...ALL she has to do is SAY something. If nothing else, "I'm sorry" would be appreciated. And then I could move on.

I've said before, and it's not profound by any means... I've been FORCED to spend countless hours and days and months evaluating what it is I've been trying to save. I never, ever wanted to be in this spot. But that process... it's me, it's all of us, it's human nature.

Here's a fact that I haven't revealed up to now: my poor, confused, talented, beautiful, wonderful-somewhere-way-deep-down wayward wife has done a lousy job of meeting MY needs. For the longest time. Maybe from the beginning. But I've loved her no less for that (sorta puts a dent in the love bank theory).
Frustrated, yes. Disappointed, yes. But I was in it for the long haul, and never doubted that for a second.

I'm not a quitter... but I'm not stupid either.

Thus, The Quandary of a Lifetime.


Thanks for listening.

ps. One of my New Years' resolutions is to say at least ONE critically important thing EVERY time I write, somewhere in the midst of all my self-serving babble...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hang in there, tqt! I'm here for you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and you made it easy: Thanks, Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 06, 2005, 07:53 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

No, Spidey, I haven't given up yet.

But I AM in a different place today than I was just a few days ago. I'm not really sure why. Maybe everything that's going on in my head is "normal" under the circumstances.

I coined my own definition of "detached" this morning.
Detached is when you make the move from... the feeling of losing your WS, to the feeling that your WS is losing YOU.

Can that be anything but healthy, in my situation?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You won't know it will happen, until it does. If you want it badly enough, you will wait. If you are done, you are done. BUT, please do NOT break your vows and your commitments that YOU made, just because she did. You will only hurt you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Methinks you give me too much credit for my wooing skills <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Or not enough credit for my standards in women <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm out of "dating" shape enough that it would? will? be a struggle for me to just GET a "date." (Does the word "date" even exist anymore? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )
Put it this way... for better or worse (pun sorta intended) I'm a long way off from breaking my vows...


So we're on Day #11, no contact.


In a more typical situation, I'd be knee-deep in an official Plan B right now, in an effort to protect me, and whatever feelings I have left for my WW -- isn't that right?

So that makes me wonder...

My feelings ARE changing as we speak. Every day gets me a little closer to the point where -- I'm pretty sure of this -- I WILL NOT WANT HER BACK. It's happening involuntarily, and I think it's, once again, "normal," isn't it?

I don't know... I'll contradict myself and say maybe I'll never get to the point of NOT wanting her back. But I will have to think longer and harder about TAKING her back. The bar will have been raised. I'll "require" MORE of those pesky little things called remorse, commitment, etc. from her. Am I screwed up, or what? Does saying that sound unloving, or controlling, or... ? I hope not.

If she has ANY reservations about what she's doing... if she has ANY thoughts about discussing reconciliation... she sure isn't handling it correctly.

So the question for Day #11 is... given the fact that my feelings are changing... and she continues to neglect to tell me what SHE's up to... should I be doing anything differently?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Detached is when you make the move from... the feeling of losing your WS, to the feeling that your WS is losing YOU. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By George, I think you've got it! What an excellent way of summing up the process called detachment. I think I'll save it to my computer, next to ARK's Lighthouse post! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am so sorry you are struggling so, and hurting. I wish I had a soothing salve for you. Or inspiring words.

Only you will know when you are done. Are you currently seeing an IC? That might be your logical next step ~ to begin preparing you for either 1)the reconciliation process, or 2)Plan D. Either way, you will need to detach, so that you can rebuild in different, better ways, or move on with little/no baggage in your next relationship.

So, if your WW didn't meet your needs very well, what is it about her that you love(d)? You have mentioned her physical beauty, but that cannot sustain a relationship for 24 years, can it?!?

Perhaps if you can brainstorm those qualities, and put them down here, it will make it easier for you to decide what to do.

I read in one of my many A books, can't remember which one, that depending on how we are viewing a person in our minds and hearts, depends on how we describe their characteristics. For instance, I am a decision-maker, I know what I want (most of the time), and I'm not afraid to speak up for myself. During our relationship, my H really liked that about me, for many different reasons. However, during our separation, while he was all fogged out and rewriting our history, I was "controlling" and didn't let him make any decisions ~ I even somehow took away his right/will to choose! Heavens!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> He really gave all his power away to me, didn't he?!

Anyway, I thought that part of the book was very interesting. How we are feeling about someone, influences our memories of them.

So, what is it about Mrs. tqt that has kept you all these years?

Spidey

One of the (almost) funny things that WW said to me several times during the chaos of last Summer and early Fall... when she was at her worst... I was in a pseudo-Plan A mode... "you're being the quintessential husband."

Well, my Plan A wasn't all that great (I didn't even know what Plan A was at the time -- I was doing the Divorce Busting thing), and I really wasn't doing ANYTHING different than I've been doing for a quarter century.

I guess that's part of the fog thing.

I loved my wife for all those years for LOTS and LOTS of reasons. There were SF issues (her baggage, as it turns out), which is WAY up on my EN's list, but as far as not meeting my EN's as I said in the prior post --- until stumbling upon the MB site and reading everything I could get my hands on, I didn't even consciously realize that she was NOT meeting so many of my needs.

Someone else asked me the same question you did - not too long ago. My answer was something like this: I love my wife for the wonderful person she is SOMEwhere inside. I love her maybe most of all for her SPIRIT. She has so many good qualities and talents... we were best friends, and we made a helluva team in so many different ways. And, I'm a patient person, and a dedicated person... anything that I was ever unhappy with, I either figured it was MY problem, or in time we'd figure it out together.

It wasn't long before all this started that SHE talked about things like what she wanted to do when we both retired.
It wasn't long before all this started that she gave me an anniversary card that said "we're perfect for each other." She just doesn't do things like that unless she means it.

I could go on and on... but... no point in doing so.

She even said... I think it was just before she left, or soon after... "I never tried." I can think clearly enough about everything to know just how great we could've been -- forever -- if she just knew how to try. She just never knew how to do that. But it's not entirely her fault -- that's the hand she was dealt by her parents.


So... What do you think about this: given the fact that my feelings are changing... and she continues to neglect to tell me what SHE's up to... should I be doing anything differently?

I'm ready, willing, and able to take whatever she throws at me. And at this point, I don't feel like I'd be jeopardizing anything by making a "wrong move."

Ah, we are entering Day #12. And I don't think you should be doing anything differently.

If you did contact her, what would you say to her? Just begin shooting the breeze? Do you think she will open up to you?

I don't. I think that you will confirm for her that you are supporting her in her A. That she can continue to fence site and cake eat.

What state do you live in? Michigan, did you say? Does that state require a legal separation before D? Is it a no-fault state? Have you had any discussions with a lawyer to find out your legal rights? If I were you (and I did this myself, for myself), I would make an appointment with a lawyer if you haven't yet, and just get all your ducks in a row.

I was reading on SYMC last night, and there was a woman who has been in Plan B for 7 months. NC for 7 months, other than a one-sentence email her WH sends once a week to set up the appointment for his turn with their dog. She saw him once driving by. In 7 months. Her WH is now buying a house with the OW (and her 3 kids), who D'd her H already. She hasn't received D papers from her WH yet.

And her question, was should there BE contact at this point, because she was wondering if her not talking to him at all is enabling his A.

The "experts" over there told her that it is imperative that the WS knows WHAT the criteria are for coming home. So that the WS knows that you are unwilling to have them if they are still in the A, but willing to have them if they are willing to work on the M, without the OP.

So . . . . I'm thinking it is time for your official Plan B letter. You definately don't want your WW to think you have completely given up on her (because I don't think you have), but you also want her to know what is required for you to allow her back into your life.

A good Plan B letter is short, states your love, and also states the requirements for her returning home (NC with OM, MC counseling, etc.). I would also make it clear that you now realize she was unhappy in the M, and that if she comes back, you want to rebuild it better and stronger than ever ~ so you can both thrive and live and love. Also, take responsibility (50%) for the state of the M pre-A, that made it vulnerable. This is NOT you taking ANY responsibility for the A. If you don't understand the difference, let me know and I will expound.

Anyway, what do you say to a Plan B letter?

Spidey

Spidey, with regard to your last post, I'd like to email you something -- would you mind?

If ok with you, you can send me your email address to tqtmb@hotmail.com

Thanks!

Spidey, tqt

In my most respectful "tone" of voice.... be careful about exchanging e-mail addresses while you are in these positions of vulnerability.

Happy New Year
SD

I should have explained further...

A month ago, I sent WW a "Plan A Letter" of sorts, and don't feel comfortable posting it for the world to see.
I was hoping to get Spidey's comments on it, since we're talking Plan B letters.

Spidey, I will certainly understand if you'd rather not! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Consider it dropped <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks SD, for helping to keep things in check.

Don't drop it! I am my own person, and I make these decisions on my own. I think SD is confusing me with someone whose spouse is still gone, or foggy. I am very happily married, and do not mind emailing with you just because you happen to be a man. So there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I would love to read your Plan A letter, and see how we might be able to create you a great Plan B letter.

Spidey

Spidey, tqt

I absolutelely meant no disrespect. T'was only an humble "heads-up".

Shine on, "feather plucker" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

SD

SD, I understand. I have thrown out my own "warnings" before. One time, when my H was still gone, there was a man here in my very own town who posted on MB. believer told me about him, thought we could support each other more, with our location in common.

This great, hurting man, hinted several times that maybe we could meet up somewhere. I was tempted. He was a fun guy, who fixed up old cars, had a great sense of humor, etc.

BUT, too dangerous for me. I didn't trust myself. Especially after one night I went out and tied one too many on, and had a very nice man thinking I was attractive. And I so wanted to feel loved and cared for. It is indeed a slippery slope. And I was sooooo grateful in the morning, when I woke up home, ALONE, and realized that I had come through for myself and my beliefs ~ been true to myself and my M.

I understand the male/female thing, and tqt is certainly not the first MB or SYMC member that I have corresponded with off the boards.

Thank you SD for being so diligent, and lurking in on us! You should post more, though. While I have read that Men are from Mars, I still don't understand fully the intricacies of the man brain. *sigh* You really should get on this thread and pipe up with your man thoughts.

OR, do you just like crashing in on the girl's locker room? Hmmmm? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

Spidey, thanks for letting me know "no offense taken".

I have often thought what a hoot it would be to toss down a few beers with you and the other Steel Magnolias. Hell, I'd be the envy of every man in any "joint" with you all at my table.

But, then again, it might just end up, lil' ol' me, at the mighty Steel Mag's table. LOL!

And, yes, I enjoy popping into the locker room, every so often!

Keep a towel handy,
SD

tqt, I just need to let you formally know that if you have copywrited any of your posts, I have broken the law! I shared your "coined" phrase of detachment over on ARK's Plan B thread. I also hope you are not offended that I gave a bit of background on the quote, and I hope I didn't misrepresent you. Go check it out, and if I did, boy . . . let me have it!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks in advance for being such a good sport.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, I just need to let you formally know that if you have copywrited any of your posts, I have broken the law! I shared your "coined" phrase of detachment over on ARK's Plan B thread. I also hope you are not offended that I gave a bit of background on the quote, and I hope I didn't misrepresent you. Go check it out, and if I did, boy . . . let me have it!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ya know, Spidey... I had you down for 50% of my book royalties, but now I'm not so sure... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey... Day #13... and GUESS what?

Came back home from the office this afternoon, and guess whose car was in the driveway, and whose dogs were in the back yard?

I don't have much time to write right now, but here's the abbreviated version...

I was NOT ready to see her, emotionally-speaking, and dammit-the-house-was-a-MESS-speaking...

But....I may be more detached than I thought I was.

She's still not a happy person. She was here about 45 minutes or so, and acted kinda weird. Not much emotion at all, threw in a bunch of cuts and digs at me, didn't smile once.
The reason she was here? "To drop off your suitcase, and give you the cable bill."

Right... the suitcase she used to move out with 3 months ago. I really needed it all of a sudden....

She was even kind enough to take the suitcase upstairs -- aka she wanted to snoop around.

It seemed like she either had something to say, or was waiting for me to say something... but for the most part, I just made smalltalk.

I did ask her: "So how are you?"

She got one of those weird, sad, eyes-nearly-welling-up expressions, and said "fine."

I do strongly feel -- still -- that she is depressed. She is just NOT a happy person. My feelings of sympathy for her have returned...

I kept the smalltalk up as long as I could, and then it seemed like she didn't know what else to do... we got the dogs in the car and she left without either of us saying "goodbye" or anything close...

She drives away... my overwhelming feeling was: I spent 24 years with this woman, and I don't even know who she is.

She called an hour later. Asked me if I'd do her a favor and check out a piece of exercise equipment (that she was thinking of buying) at the sporting goods store, and give her my opinion. I said yes, I'd do that.

I just realized... I think it's been a month? since I've SEEN her.

My definition of "detached" seems appropriate right now....
I'm not sure if there's enough left anymore to save.

I just don't know. She may have blown it...

Oh boy, you better hang on. Cause I got stuffs to say 'bout this!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She called an hour later. Asked me if I'd do her a favor and check out a piece of exercise equipment (that she was thinking of buying) at the sporting goods store, and give her my opinion. I said yes, I'd do that. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, IMO, this is EXACTLY why you need Plan B, for real. NC at ALL. Why? She has just gotten you to fulfill a need for her, on HER terms. She has just gotten you to take care of her, and she hasn't had to do ANYthing to earn it.

Wow. That must be nice. Why should she change anything she's doing? She can be with OM, come over to your house, feel familiar and comfortable. She can give you her sad eyes, and get you to take care of her again.

Hmmmmm. No wonder you are losing your love for her, your respect for her. Which one of you will win this Great Race of destroying the M for good?

This confirms my opinion that Plan B is needed immediately. If she wants you to take care of her so badly, she is gonna have to work for it.

Yes, she is depressed. No, you don't know her. She doesn't know HERSELF right now, IMO.

What say you to all of THAT???!!!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow. That must be nice. Why should she change anything she's doing? She can be with OM, come over to your house, feel familiar and comfortable. She can give you her sad eyes, and get you to take care of her again.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, I do understand what you're saying.
BUT (I always gotta throw one of those in, don't I? It must be my CONTROLLING nature.)
She certainly didn't feel comfortable when she was here! And wouldn't she want to change something, as miserable as she appears to be?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No wonder you are losing your love for her, your respect for her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's left me no choice. And losing respect for her, well... of course it started when I discovered the A. And I lost more as I tried to save our M while she continued to lie and deceive. And lost even more since she left... continuing to lash out at me, with complete and total disregard for me as a person, our loooong time together...blah blah blah..


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she wants you to take care of her so badly, she is gonna have to work for it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree, but I don't think she wants to work for it. For better or worse....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, she is depressed. No, you don't know her. She doesn't know HERSELF right now, IMO. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm talking about Clinical Depression (maybe? maybe not?), not just an unhappy person. And if that's the case, then... without her getting help, none of this makes any difference. It's all very sad, and regardless what happens, she needs to talk to someone.

(sigh)

So, . . . other than displaying your "controlling" nature, you didn't really say much in the last post.

You are unhappy with the way she is treating you, yet you are going to allow her to continue doing so.

She could be clinically depressed, so, you are going to . . . continue in the same pattern as you have for the past year(s)? and hope for different results?

Are you leaning toward separation/Plan D? Are you adamant to NOT do Plan B and just suffer through her fence-sitting/cake-eating?

Who what where when?!? What's going on?

Spidey

Point(s) well taken, Spidey.

I'm numb right now. That's why the last post was meaningless.

I'm "processing." I'm soul-searching. I wish she didn't show up here today (and I know that's part of what Plan B is all about).

I sense your frustration, and not only do I not blame you for that, but... I appreciate it.

What a weird ride this is... who invented THIS one?

I understand, tqt. I really do. I'm so sorry you are in this turmoil tonight. It really miffs me, though, that she just waltz's in, unannounced, disturbs your mind and heart, and gets you to take care of her.

And I understand why you feel compelled to do so! It is a sick sick ride that you must choose between 1)easing her mind and heart and feelings by taking care of her, as you have for so many years, because you clearly love her, and 2)taking care of your OWN feelings and heart and protecting them from her, so that you can not go insane.

It is sick, and twisted. You have given her ample opportunity to choose and come home. The more time that goes on, the more you will not want to rebuild your M. Because, I am telling you tqt, from experience, rebuilding is the HARDEST part. I know it seems now that if she would just do NC with OM and come home, that the big hurdle is done. But, that is just a small part, in the grand scheme of things. You will need reserves in the tank for that journey, I promise you. You cannot spend it all now.

Does that make sense? NObody enters into Plan B with a happy feeling in their heart and a smile on their face. It is counter-intuitive. Every single thought and feeling will be against it. Your mind will tell you that you two are unique (which you are), and that perhaps this approach is not the best for you (it is). Plan B is something you will have to be convinced of, and then we will get through each day, one at a time. Together. You and me, and the other 40,000 members on this site.

The BEST thing you can do for your WW and your M right now is to withdraw from her chaos, from her triangle. First, to save the love you have left for her, for when/if she ends her A and commits to working on the M. Second, because you cannot help her until you help yourself. You must detach and find your center again, tqt. You have been in a relationship with her for a long time. No matter how healthy of a processor of emotions and situations you are, you need some time to adjust to all of this, to the possibility of life without her by your side. Time to process exactly what you think a healthy M is, and how you plan on getting that when/if she comes back.

I hope you sleep well tonight, my friend. And my heart is heavy for your pain. None of it makes any sense. It is both unreal, and too real. I am not frustrated with you. I understand your hesitancy. Getting people into Plan B is probably one of the hardest things here at MB and SYMC. That and exposure. But mostly Plan B. Because it feels to the BS that the WS will get the message that you don't care, that you want the D, and that the WS will go running to the OP.

My experience is that none of that happens. BUT, you are a smart man, you are capable of making your own decisions. I am merely here to advise, and give you as much information as possible.

Take care, and I'll "see" you in the morning.

Spidey