Spidey... oops, we cross-posted there...

About the D thing, you are absolutely right. If it gets to the point where you haven't talked to her in a while, and your in-love feelings are gone, then you should file. BUT, while there is a thought in your head of saving the M, or you are just not sure, don't instigate the D process. Especially out of frustration or anger or hurt. At MC, we learned that a strange, detached calmness overcomes people when they are ready for D. Not anger, or fear, or hate ~ but a calm acceptance that it is over, a deep sadness too, but nothing that stirs up the major emotions.

But you are right. If her plan is to sit on this thing, until you do something for her, then she is truly lost to herself, IMO. How horrible to be numbed? into inaction like that. I cannot imagine just sitting there, waffling, waiting for everyone else around you to decide what THEY want to do, then choosing your future off that.

To a point, that is what you are doing, waiting for her. But at least you don't plan on doing that INDEFINATELY. I feel so sorry and sad for your WW, tqt. And it makes me feel grateful all over again that my H was able to wake himself up, and seek the help he needed, and come back to me and his family. I can see how some people just become immobilized by all the hurdles they must overcome. *sigh*

The harm in asking the questions, IMO, is the danger of getting sucked back into their "game." I keep thinking, "What if she strings him along more, when he soooo needs to protect himself right now." or "What if she tells you something that you have a hard time accepting, or getting over, and it throws you into another tailspin - when there is nothing you can do about what THEY are doing."

Those are the thoughts. I see you so close to your own personal recovery, and I want you to turn that corner by presenting her with your own Plan B.

BUT, you are not me. You must do this in your own way, your own time.

Don't focus on your nervousness. Focus on what you want to say to WW. Right down a list of the questions you think are important to ask, before you call her, so you can stay on track (even though you will be nervous). And so you can stay on track, even if the conversation heads in a direction you aren't expecting.

And before you call, become clear on your intention, and focus on the feeling that comes up with that intention. Like you said, you aren't going to demand, LB, DJ, or be needy. You are a grown man, asking a grown woman, for information that you feel you need to make some decisions for yourself, for your life. And no matter what happens on the call, stay with your original intention. Set the tone and pace of the conversation.

I have every confidence in you. And I can't wait to hear how it goes. I hope all the best for you, tqt. And I'm sending you a bit of luck, to boot! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Spidey... oops, we cross-posted there... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, but that's not going to stop me! I'll just keep overloading you with words! Always get in the last word!!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just kidding. Type faster, mister!

Spidey, it's great that you got things worked out with your boss. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Bet that's a load off your shoulders!

And if you give me one more apology, I'll be forced to try (and try, and try...) to think of something you said that warrants one. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Off to the gym, maybe hit on a hot babe or two, maybe stop for a beer, and then home for my first-ever Plan B Party.

What a life we sorta-single dudes live, eh?

Plan B parties suck.
I will never, ever go to another one.

My 24-year relationship with my wife ended 20 seconds ago.

I was calm -- really calm -- the whole time.
I'm dead tired, so I know I wasn't UP either.

I won't be able to recall the details -- I guess the highlights were... I'm paraphrasing a lot and/or giving my commentary here... and it's all out of order.......

She said I looked terrible on Sunday (when she showed up at the house). Yep, I probably did. She seemed to get some sort of satisfaction out of that, now that I think more about it. I laughed when she said that, told her I didn't get much sleep the night before, and had to rush out early that morning. She asked about 5 times why I didn't get much sleep...

She has yet to tell anyone at work that she's left her husband. That's why people from her office call my house, and not her place. Hey, it's only been 3.3 months.

she doesn't have any feelings for me -- sure, she cares about me, but...

About the No More Contact Between Us declaration, she said "it hurts."

In some manner of speaking, she said she liked living alone -- "I've never been alone before"

Mentioned that there were things that she had to learn, figure out, etc. because she never lived alone before.


no, she has absolutely no plans to marry OM.


She is, in fact, going away with OM this weekend.

I asked her if she was comfortable with that this time, because after the last time, she said she did not feel good about it. She said, somewhat convincingly, that she was ok with it this time. I asked her what changed from the last time, and she didn't answer me.

Asked her if he was going to Fla with her, she said "I don't know. We talked about it. But there's no plan."

She said she "hadn't had time" to talk to someone (therapist) -- she brought this up before I did.

Before delivering the Plan B List, I asked her several times if there was anything she wanted to talk about. She waffled a little bit, but really offered nothing.

I gave her the punchline (my Plan B list) -- which by the time I got up the nerve to choke it up consisted of: ending her affair with OM. After saying that "it hurts," she brought up the !@^#!*& cable bill and the car insurance bill, ie. the logistics of paying it.

Just writing that gets me going in the right direction.... she thinks about the !@#^&* cable bill??!?!?

--------------

I'm in a bit of shock right now, but that's to be expected.

Dammit... I've had 15 minutes to process this miserable scene...

In the process of typing all this out, I've gone from massively deep despair, to pretty-darn-near-extreme hatred for the woman, to... nothing's any different than it was an hour ago, two weeks ago, two months ago...

SHE'S NOT HUMAN.

ps. I usually proof-read my posts, but I'd rather spend my time right now trying my damndest to hate her again...

pps. I'm fine. I really am. She disgusts me, more than anything.

<small>[ January 14, 2005, 12:22 AM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

{{{{{{{{{{tqt}}}}}}}}}}

That is a REALLY big cyber hug, for my friend. I am sooooo sorry that you had a horrible night. Did you end up getting any sleep last night? You'll have to do an extra long/hard workout tonight, to cleanse all the yucky fresh emotions from your system. Because you are right, nothing is different, not really.

I don't think your 24 year M ended last night, tqt. Perhaps some part of it, as these things seem to die a little at a time, but I actually see a lot of hope in what she said/didn't say.

If you are up for hearing my opinion about that, let me know. If you are done feeling/reading anything in that direction now or in the future, I understand.

Do you get a 3-day weekend for Martin Luther King Jr.'s birthday? Do you have any plans for this weekend? If not, I think you should make some. Perhaps a man-only ski trip, stay at the lodge and read a good book at night in front of a warm, bright fire? Take a drive to your parents' house, and let them be a support system for you right now? Maybe start looking into your waterfront property dream?

You should sit down at this time, tqt, and try and realize every dream you once had, and begin seeing which ones you can begin implementing now. Plan B is all about you moving forward, realizing everything you have ever wanted, and creating that in your life. You are now officially in Plan B, so why not???

And no, let's not have any more Plan B parties. They do suck.

How are you feeling today after a night to think it over?

One more little {{{{{tqt}}}}} for you today.

Spidey

Wow.

This infidelity stuff is huge.

Hi Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> and... thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


Well... after I posted last night, I gave my mother a call. She's been great throughout this whole thing, although is BIG-time anti-WW. I actually read to her some of the stuff I've written here (and some that you've written, Spidey -- she's impressed with you <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )
I choked up a bit while reading it -- it is pretty sad to read it... anyway, my mother was deeply saddened by it all, and is worried about me, as mothers do.
Then a friend called (she is going a rough time with HER son's divorce -- it's a mess), and we commiserated until 2:30AM, during which time I over-served myself too many beers from the refrigerator. Got off the phone with her (friend), and then, I'll admit... kinda lost it, as in... emotionally. But I guess that's what I needed to do. And, I felt an overwhelming sense of loneliness.

Then I started posting... never finished it... it was still on the screen this morning... I had started to describe the intense pain I was in, and how it was every bit as intense as the day she moved out.
I guess I wasn't ready for what implementing Plan B would do to me, emotionally. In fact, I almost didn't go through with it -- I was close to not even calling her -- but forced myself to dial the stupid phone...

I'm ok now. I little tired, a touch of a hangover, I believe.... but otherwise, I'm ok.
No, let's be honest... I'm in some sort of daze. Everything FEELS different. I'm emotionally wiped out. Kind of numb. I wasn't expecting this. But it WAS a huge thing last night, I guess, and it'll just take a little time to deal with it all... Yes... as you said: "to cleanse all the yucky fresh emotions from your system. " Exactly!

I CAN still laugh, however... your "man-only ski trip" made me laugh out loud for a couple minutes... Thought you could slide that subliminal little message right by me, huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think your 24 year M ended last night, tqt. Perhaps some part of it, as these things seem to die a little at a time, but I actually see a lot of hope in what she said/didn't say.

If you are up for hearing my opinion about that, let me know.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, Spidey, I'd really like hear what you're thinking, if you have the time?


As far as plans for the weekend go... I have plenty to do. Nothing particularly exciting -- more like try to catch up on all the "maintenance" type stuff that I've let slide for too long.

And, I have a LOT of decisions to make... a LOT of planning to do.

Thanks for being there, Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

tqt, I am glad you called your mom. My friend/client here, whose wife has left him and their two small children for her boss, has his parents staying with him for a few weeks (they are French). They just want to be close to him, and do what they can for him. The other day, Dad was fixing the disposal, and Mom was vacuuming. They are so cute, fussing over their grown son like that. And they kept thanking me over and over again for cooking for him (it's my job). They said, "He needs you. Thank you. The children just eat and eat your food!"

Even though it is my job, made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. They are vegetarians (plus eggs and seafood), so it is a challenge to make sure the kids will eat the food, and get enough protein.

ANYway, enough about that. I am also glad you had someone to talk with on the phone last night. And one too many trips to the fridge for a beer is downright necessary every once in a while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I guess I see hope in what she said to you last night, because my H told me those same things when he left. I think she does need time alone, all by herself, so she can grow up. I know how easy it is to lose yourself in a relationship ~ even a healthy one, with lots of love and no abuse or anything. I guess now I can see so clearly where mine and H's pre-M was not really "healthy," but we didn't have many of the challenges that so many here do: addiction, abuse, childhood abuse, etc.

And I think that her response of "It hurts" is probably all she can really feel right now. At the very beginning of Plan B, most WS's think that it is exactly what they want/need. Many don't think it is too big of a deal, since they don't think they have feelings for their BS anymore, anyway.

It is funny that her mind immediately went to the logistics of the bills and such. It is my opinion, that after 2 or 3 or 4 weeks, her mind is going to be in another place all together. Seriously, all she's had to do, even after leaving you (even WHILE leaving you, since you helped her move!), is ask you for assistance and she has received it.

And I understand WHY you have given it, that is not even an issue. The same reason I bent over backwards to make sure my H could spend as much time with our boys during our separation as his hectic schedule would allow ~ because it gave him joy, and it made the boys happy. It was the only way I could provide joy to a man who had lost it from every other aspect of his life. He alienated himself from his friends, family, work peers, everyone. All he had were his boys.

I had my own healthy boundaries, though. If an opportunity came up and he requested them, if we already had plans, the answer was no. I did not use them as manipulation, and my H knew that and respected that.

ANYway, let's give her some time in Plan B, time to stew in her own juices, and see what happens. Dr. Harley has this system set up for a reason, and I have seen it work. Mostly, it works for you, tqt. We can hope she helps herself, but we don't know if she will or not. YOU, however, know what you want and what is required to get there. You understand that unplugging from the chaos she has created in her life will serve you.

I know it was hard for you. I am very happy that you managed to get the punchline out last night, since that was your intention of the phone call. I'm glad you just pushed ahead, and spit it out. I really think this will help you in your personal recovery.

So, are you planning a whole lot of DOMESTIC CHORES this weekend? Immediately, I thought of toilet cleaning. Vacuuming, dishes, MOPPING. Thank goodness it's winter, you should have minimal lawn care to do! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">wife has left him and their two small children</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is it me, or does it seem like some sort of epidemic...
I just don't get it!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Even though it is my job, made me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is this the same job that you talked about earlier (the meeting with your boss)?
I guess I can't ask too many questions, but.. cool! And if you get to feel warm and fuzzy doing your job... that's way beyond cool <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">They are vegetarians (plus eggs and seafood), so it is a challenge to make sure the kids will eat the food, and get enough protein.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Speaking of... I was JUST talking with my mother about this very subject -- my sister/BIL are vegetarians, and we were talking about how we worried that their two little kids don't get enough protein. Go figure!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And one too many trips to the fridge for a beer is downright necessary</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, no, no... not ONE too many... TOO many too many... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I see hope in what she said to you last night, because my H told me those same things when he left. I think she does need time alone, all by herself, so she can grow up. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think it's gonna work, Spidey. I don't think she's going to grow up. I really don't. That would mean facing... dealing with... her issues.

She's getting her fix from OM, and that's all she needs to keep fooling herself that she's happy, and that her life is better now. Hey... maybe it is.

I could go on and on forever about this... (don't worry, I won't).

DAMN, this is frustrating! I can deal with the fact that she doesn't love me.
And I can deal with having to start my life over again. I SURE as hell am not in the mood to do that, and never thought I'd have to... but I can deal with it, and I will.

What's frustrating is that... if I took everything at face value, I'd have to accept the fact that I spent 24 years of my life with a Cardboard Cutout Babe, and not a Real Person.

I know --- I KNOW in my HEART and my BRAIN that she's not happy -- forget me, forget OM -- she's just NOT a healthy, happy adult. That's what's frustrating... she will NOT deal with it. With or without me. With or without OM, or anyone else. I blame her parents. In part, I blame her grandparents --- now I'm talking about genetics... brain chemistry... that's not all of the story... but combine the brain chemistry with LOUSY --- L O U S Y --- parenting... it gets complicated.
And yes, I also blame myself. I've been primary, numero uno person in her life so far, time-wise, at least. And I neglected to see something... somewhere along the way... I could've made things different... but I feel like I was must have been too wrapped up in myself, and didn't see the signs... didn't recognize that something was wrong.

Wrong with her, wrong with me, wrong with our marriage...

Yikes! Why do I think that anyone cares to read this self-serving gibberish?!?

So... what struck me the most about last night's conversation was... no one at work knows she moved. Three+ months ago.
I asked her last night: "why would Sue be calling here?" (instead of HER place)
In other words... not only has she been trying to keep this A a secret at work... STILL... she hasn't even told her closest "friends" that she left her husband. WTF???

She's living a lie... is she not? Every single day... her life is a lie... is it not?!?

Yes, her life is a lie. She has created it, and now probably feels trapped by it. After reading here as long as I have, I am beginning to believe that the WS brains work like this: "I am doing something wrong, I know it to be wrong because I am purposefully hiding it, but if others don't know I'm doing it, then I don't need to feel ashamed around them."

Something to that affect. Like if the tree falls in the forest, and nobody hears it, did it really fall? I don't think the WS really has a concrete answer to that question. Because to get themselves where they are, they have had to bend and flex their morals and beliefs, so they find it easier to bend and flex reality, as well.

If I were you, I'd tell the work people. I'd call up Sue, and tell her that your WW's contact number is blah blah, because she has moved out so she can "date" her boyfriend more guilt-free.

*gasp* Did I say that??? No, be mature, and tell her in a different way.

OK, here is the confusing low-down on my jobs. The business I started for myself, is cooking for people in their homes. Usually, 2-income families, with kids, who find themselves eating out more than in home, and want healthy food to eat. So far, I only have 1 full-time client (my vegetarian friend). I have others I cook with ever 4 or 5 weeks, usually older ladies who don't WANT to cook, and we chat and cook and freeze everything. Then they eat that food for the next month or so, and they call me again.

One of those clients happens to live in a GARGANTUAN (sp?) home, and I help her clean it every other week.

THEN, one of our friends that we have done Scouting with for forever, started his own insurance agency. Asked me to be his contact manager. He knew I wasn't in to calling people (like SOLICITING), because I told him that a year ago when he asked for my help in that area. Well, when I interviewed for this job, he said no calling. And guess what ~ he wanted me to call 3 days a week! I tried, I really tried, but soliciting goes against the very core of my being. My theory with it is that if I want to change my phone/insurance/cable, I'll call YOU, you don't need to call me during dinner.

THAT is the job I quit the other day. Plus, my H's other co-worker just had triplets (artificial insemination - 0 to 3 at one time!), and she has asked about my availability once the babies come home. And I was spread pretty thin with that insurance job. So, it has all worked out for the best, I think.

Another great thing I learned from everything that happened with H's A ~ I am much more aware of my boundaries, and enforcing them.

Take care of yourself, and good luck with your toilet cleaning today!

Spidey

Hello? Did I scare you away??? Did you get lost in your domestic chores and forget about MB? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Good. Take a break. This place is downright addicting!

Take care, tqt.

Spidey

No, Spidey! You didn't scare me away... sorry, NO chance of that...
I started to write last night, but was sooo tired, I decided to wait 'til this morning.
And this place IS addicting, huh?!?

I had a ROUGH day yesterday, but woke up in GREAT spirits this morning!

Trying to take a step "outside myself" and look in, I was amazed all day long at how HUGE the emotions were (pretty much all lousy ones). It felt like I was going thru EVERYTHING all over again. First D-day, then around the time when I knew there was no stopping her from leaving, then moving day itself, and now this wonderful Plan B. The rotten feelings are getting all-too familiar, and I've had enough of 'em!

Today is different -- already -- and I plan on continuing the onward and upward momentum... while SHE, I hope, is somewhere (who knows?) w/ the OB feeling at least some guilt and turmoil. I do wonder... what do WS's feel when Plan B is dumped on them? I wonder if she feels differently in some way, even if it's just a little voice in her head saying "now what am I going to do?" or... maybe some fear... maybe some slightly sickening feeling in her stomach... maybe looking at the OB a little differently and asking herself "was he really worth all this?"

Will never know the answers to those and a thousand other questions....

But I suspect that as I continue with the healing process, and eventually become a better, more fulfilled, and happier person than ever before... she will still be struggling with so many of the same issues that led us to this mess.

Aside from the ol' run-of-the-mill loneliness, starvation for companionship and physical intimacy, etc. (Who CARES about that stuff, anyway?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> ), my biggest problem right now seems to be a problem focusing... concentrating -- probably normal stuff.

Never thought I'd have to start my life over again at 45. And I've discovered that I'm just WAY out of practice thinking about no one but ME. I have lists and lists of things to think about... things to do... new activities, interests, goals, etc. I'm giving myself TOO much to think about, and for some reason am afraid to narrow things down and dive in. Again, maybe all normal, under the circumstances. I hope so!

One last comment about WW, for now, because I'm completely confused by it... I find it UNbelievable...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were you, I'd tell the work people. I'd call up Sue</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just don't get it! She's keeping the fact that she left her husband a secret... but continuing the A... I'd think she would WANT everyone to know that she's separated, so they could get THEIR relationship out in the open a little, to make it more convenient, comfortable, whatever(??!?)
Most people probably know a LOT more than she thinks they do (it ALWAYS works that way), so... if nothing else, she/OM seem to be acting really S T U P I D.... STILL....

----------------------

Now, the GOOD stuff! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The business I started for myself, is cooking for people in their homes. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I couldn't believe it when I read that.... the woman I commiserated with the other night (a long time GREAT friend and co-worker) --- that is EXACTLY what she would LOVE to be doing, and we've had a BUNCH of conversations about it. I think that's a GREAT business to be in, and I bet you'll do well!!! Very cool stuff... I can't wait to tell my friend what my MB friend does <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
And... I'm glad you quit the insurance thing... good move. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And let's not talk about cleaning, at least until I get at least one toilet cleaned <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Hey... I DID get the tub/shower done yesterday... and, on the same subject.. I think vacuuming more than a couple times a year is overkill, don't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Have a great Sunday, Spidey! As always... thanks for being there.

ps. Go Eagles!

Well, happy Sunday to you, too! Congrats on getting that bathtub cleaned out. And vacuuming can be over-rated, but . . . perhaps you could think of doing it . . . bi-monthly, rather than bi-annually. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

That is awesome about your friend! What a small world. My H is building me a website tool to assist me and my clients with menus and such. When he is done, I will give you the link to give your friend. Perhaps she would be interested in modeling her service after mine. I am getting very excited about it. I'm glad I quit the insurance thing, too. I did get him all organized before I left, which was my #1 goal in working there. And I'll train his next contact manager. I'm not leaving him high and dry, at least. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think everything you are going through is "normal." And every time I type the word "normal" here on MB, I feel compelled to quote the word. Because 1)what is "normal" here is horrific everywhere else, and 2)I'm still not convinced there is such a thing as "normal."

But I do see trends, and patterns, and what you are going through right now tends to move towards acceptance. And personal recovery.

As far as what your WW thinks of Plan B, probably not much right now. First, it will probably take her a while to convince herself that she needs something else from you (not just wants something from you), and second because she might not believe that anything has truly changed. I think words to her right now don't do much for her, either way. She probably heard what you said, but might have interpreted it that you just aren't going to contact her ~ but if she REALLY NEEDS you, you will certainly take care of her and be there for her, because you always have been.

My H didn't tell people in his life for a while that he had moved out. She might care SO MUCH about what other people think of her (your WW), that she is too ashamed and embarassed. She might think that people associate her as a couple with you, and maybe she doesn't even want to let that go. Maybe she doesn't want the OM to think she has made up her mind about him yet, and still hides him as her dirty secret ~ except to those you have exposed to.

So, keep on keeping on, tqt. You are doing great. I am finishing the painting in my bedroom today. I told my H we are going to purchase the TV he wants when my computer room gets painted (last major room in the house!), so he is EXTREMELY motivated to get started. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It's all about proper motivation! Chat at you later.

Spidey

I caught the tail-end of that game yesterday, and YAY! The Eagles won. I saw the very last touchdown pass that was contested. My boys are asking me over and over again how the referee was going to rule. I said, "I don't know! It looked like a touchdown to me, but I don't know all the rules!" Geez. It is so funny what kids expect you to know ~ EVERYthing. "Mom, what year was Mozart born?" "Mom, were *insert long name of a dinosaur that I have never heard of before* alive during the Paleozoic Era?" "Mom, [as they are pointing to something in the distance, BEHIND me, while I am driving 80 mph down the interstate] how many volts of electricity are running through that power line?"

*sigh* They definately keep H and I laughing. Good thing we have such great senses of humor, I tell you!

Well, I got my bedroom finished last night. H and I both really like it. H decided to start on the computer room last night, because he is very motivated. First, let me tell you about this room. This home was custom built for the original owners. And they did build everything very high-quality, and very sturdy. Pretty much without exception. Well, our computer room, they decided to make the "Pocahontas Room" ~ my neighbor told me this. We just thought they liked these colors.

So, around the entire Pocahontas Room, they glued AND nailed, this very large, garrish (IMO) trim in the middle of the wall, two separate the upper wall (and ceiling!) light green, from the bottom of the wall dark green. With dark blue carpet. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I have no idea. Maybe Pocahontas on the water, in the forest?

Well, H was convinced last night that the trim was held with little finishing nails, and no glue. The strip he tore off, took off not only the paint, but some of the drywall/sheetrock/whatever it is. Which kinda messes up the texture on the wall.

Anyway, my job today is to see if they sell anything that might dissolve the glue a bit, so we don't tear the walls down, trying to make this room a more happy place. I couldn't believe how big the nails were that they put in the trim, AFTER they used like super glue to stick it on! They are like 3 or 4 inches long! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Craziness. So, how did your game-watching go yesterday? I was all set to watch the Colts and the Patriots, but somehow my eyes fell closed and I lost consciousness. I woke up during the half-time show, and finished my painting just in time to see the after-game wrap-up on. They were saying how Manning couldn't have the responsibility for carrying the team, so I'm not sure if that means the Colts won or lost.

I don't know why, but I was up yesterday morning at 4. WIDE awake. Which is probably why I crashed in the afternoon.

Hope you are feeling better, getting to the gym (that really saved me).

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my job today is to see if they sell anything that might dissolve the glue a bit, so we don't tear the walls down, trying to make this room a more happy place. I couldn't believe how big the nails were that they put in the trim, AFTER they used like super glue to stick it on! They are like 3 or 4 inches long! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhh...home improvement... a subject near and dear to my heart! Spidey, I think you're going to have a hard time finding a clean way to get the adhesive off the drywall without damaging the surface of it. Drywall soaks up most adhesives like a sponge.
You might work a putty knife behind the trim and try to scrape it as you pry/pull the trim off. Sounds like some drywall work no matter what.

Pocahontas Room? Are you guys zoned for teepees?
I just can't understand why you don't like green walls and dark blue carpet!?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

My next project is the downstairs bathroom -- removing the vanity and putting in a pedestal sink, replacing the toilet (hey, now I don't have to clean that one!) with one that matches the sink, new light fixtures, flooring, etc. Wasn't my idea... this is stuff WW wanted to do almost a year ago (AFTER D-DAY). We bought everything, and it's been sitting in the garage ever since. As much as I love this home improvement stuff, I haven't been much in the mood for it, if you know what I mean...

I really need to decide IF I'm going to be in this house for long. I don't need four bedrooms! If she only had a clue how badly she's screwed up my life (as well as hers), just the logistical part of it, if nothing else.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hope you are feeling better, getting to the gym (that really saved me).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not sure HOW I feel, to be honest. All over the map, I guess. Really tired. I'm definitely not sleeping well.
But I've missed only one day at the gym in the last couple weeks! Without the workouts, I'd have gone insane a looong time ago!
In fact, leaving for there shortly.

Biggest problem now -- and all day today -- is trying to get her off my mind...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Biggest problem now -- and all day today -- is trying to get her off my mind... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm so sorry. That is why it is imperative that you FORCE yourself into doing STUFF. Get that bathroom started. While you are doing it, crank up your favorite music, and just let your mind rest. Sing out loud, yell sailor-curses if you drop something either 1)on your foot, or 2)if you break something.

Get the oil changed, wash the car, VACUUM!

What I did to get myself going in the beginning, was to write a To-Do list each day. Sometimes I wrote it the night before. Literally, if you need to go to the store, write it down. Write down Go To The Gym. Get Gas. Grocery Store.

And if I didn't get it all done that day, I just transferred that stuff to the next day and added a couple more. My theory was to MIMIC feeling "normal," and perhaps I would actually begin feeling that way. And it worked for me. It worked amazingly well, actually.

And keep posting. You need to come here, and post your feelings, your thoughts, your questions, your fears. Or just to find the humor in the mundane, in the ordinary, and even in the painful.

Also, have you considered getting something from the doctor to help you get some rest? I never got sleeping pills, but I got some anti-anxiety meds that started with an L. Can't remember the name. She gave me 15, and I didn't renew the prescription. For the first week I took them each day. Then I began sleeping on my own. The last time I took one (and it was two, the maximum dose) was when I had to be in the same room with then-wayward H, and OW, for a Scout Court of Honor (my boys got awards, and her son did too).

And she came and spoke to me, trying to make it all seem like it didn't happen. So, I know those pills worked well, because without them, I think I might have either stroked out, or physically attacked her. Literally. I can be highly emotionally charged, and I have very firm beliefs in certain things, and I was strained to the maximum that night. BUT, nobody had to bail me out. So, maybe go see your doc and get something to help you take the edge off.

Take care, and goodnight, tqt!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is why it is imperative that you FORCE yourself into doing STUFF.

What I did to get myself going in the beginning, was to write a To-Do list each day. Sometimes I wrote it the night before. Literally, if you need to go to the store, write it down. Write down Go To The Gym. Get Gas. Grocery Store.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, Spidey, Spidey!

I'm DOING STUFF! Did I give you the impression that I'm curled up in the corner with my blankie over my head?

But... she's in my head AS I'm doing STUFF. She's been STUFFED in my head since I was 20 years old!

Yikes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yeah, the To-Do list. I've had one EVERY day since I was a teenager. WW used to make fun of my lists -- always.. for years.
(Then a couple months before she moved out, she started making her own To-Do list... pretty funny...)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And keep posting. You need to come here, and post your feelings, your thoughts, your questions, your fears. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You may regret saying that one day, but... ok! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or just to find the humor in the mundane, in the ordinary, and even in the painful.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Uh-oh... this could get ugly...

For example, this morning I realized that if I shaved my head, and never had to get my hair cut, that I could in theory go the rest of my life without ANY physical contact with another human being. Don't tell the shampoo girl this, but that's about the extent of my physical contact --- because I get my freakin' hair cut once every 3 weeks or so. And my WIFE is out screwing another guy!!!

How pathetic is THAT?!? THAT's no way to live!!! And I'm a decent looking guy -- there are women that actually LOOK at me!

I'm going to get arrested one of these days! I'll get thrown out of the gym!
I have to drink an extra 12 glasses of water every day, to ward off drool-induced dehydration! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Plan B sucks. I'm NOT sure how long I can stay in Plan B. It's getting old. I'm getting old.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> maybe go see your doc and get something to help you take the edge off.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I sound edgy? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
I actually slept last night. Not sure why/how. I'll take it, though!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm DOING STUFF! Did I give you the impression that I'm curled up in the corner with my blankie over my head? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I don't know about the blankie, but . . . I was under the impression, for some reason, that you had many things TO do, but that you were having a hard time getting them DONE. And I went and perused the past page of posts, and nowhere did you SAY that, so I have no idea where I got that IDEA from. Sorry 'bout that.

And I had to chuckle about the list thing . . . I am a list-aholic, myself. I love them! I love making them, I love crossing stuff off, I love it all! And my H teases me about them, too. BUT, he has also come to rely upon them. When we get to Home Depot, he's like, "Where's the list?" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I read your other thread this morning, regarding Plan D. How are you feeling about that? Are you to the point where you are done giving? Is your $LB empty?

Personally, I think you should give Plan B a bit longer. IMO, you need a bit more personal healing before I think you can be confident of WHY you are making your decisions. I remember being in that place. H kept telling me he wanted D. My pride was struggling to exert itself. And many times I told my friends and family ~ That's it! I'm going to D him!

And then I would have doubts, simply because I couldn't be sure of my own reasoning process/feelings. I think you are doing a great job of exploring your feelings and testing your thinking. We all support you here, no matter what you decide you need to do.

It is interesting how we all turn around. The man I posted with a long time ago, who was from my same state, the next city over, had a type of epiphany when he broke his toe. He was in Plan B, WW had moved out to manage the apartment complex that OM was the maintenance man for. She had never wanted kids, but all of a sudden wanted to raise his 2 or 3 kids.

Anyway, he woke up one morning, swung his legs out of bed, and one of the toes smacked the wall and broke. And his neighbor took him to the doctor. And he had to hobble around his place, making meals for himself with no assistance. And he suddenly realized that she was not there in his time of need, as he had always been for her (it was her THIRD PA!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ).

And when she served him with D papers, he didn't contest it (Idaho is a no-fault state, so all he could do is slow it down, not stop it). He realized he needed to let her go.

I understand your WW is currently very firmly planted on top of her fence, not seemingly ready to budge in either direction. But things change. I think you should just give it a little time.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Personally, I think you should give Plan B a bit longer. IMO, you need a bit more personal healing before I think you can be confident of WHY you are making your decisions. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I won't argue, but what kind of personal healing do you think I need more of? Serious question; any/all answers accepted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Maybe I should try to inventory my thought process. The process that I'm going thru in trying to decide exactly what to do next, and when to do it.

Ugh....

In no particular order:

1) what are the odds that she will want to reconcile?
2) even if she decides she'd like to reconcile, what are the odds she'll have the strength to admit it?
3) will she change into a warm and caring person? (ok, now it's starting to sound far-fetched...)
4) will she ever be able to show remorse? genuine empathy? will she even be able to offer a heartfelt apology for what she's done?!?
5) will she ever open up, show some humility, be comfortable in her own skin?
6) will she "grow up?" will she deal with her "issues" --- her "baggage" -- that for the most part she's probably been lugging around since she was a little girl -- she's 42 now.
7) will I ever be able to trust her?
8) can I deal with the PA part of it in the long run?
9) just how much resentment do I have, and will never know for sure, until I go thru the reconciliation process?
10) why am I holding on -- why HAVE I been holding on --- why did I try SO DAMN HARD to save my marriage, when I know there is SOMEONE out there SOMEWHERE who could and would "make me happier."


The other side of the coin...

I do still love her. I do still want her. She was everything to me.
A long time ago... not that long ago, but definitely before all this started, I said to her "if I have to get old, I just want it to be with you."

I meant that from the bottom of my heart and soul.

But I don't have a choice in the matter anymore.


And another thing, Ms. Spidey...
How do you think it makes me feel when a "stranger" (although a really, really nice one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) has... day after day after day... put a million times more time and thought and energy into trying to save my marriage than my wife has?
Don't you think I think about that?


I WAS in a good mood before I started writing this. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> what kind of personal healing do you think I need more of? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I will try and break this down. I realize that not everyone has the same belief/views as I do, and sometimes I post stuff, assuming that everyone knows everything in my head already. And they are sitting there, going, "WTH are you talking about, woman???"

Personal healing, to ME, means a calm acceptance of how things ARE. Personally, I think everyone should be at this point when/if they file for D, when/if they sign D papers filed by S, OR EVEN when they choose to enter into the reconcilliation process.

I still sense you struggling with where you are at right now in your life. For some reason, you have not yet let go. I think that reason is that you haven't completely detached from her. It is my very humble opinion, that until you can detach from her, you will not reach personal or M recovery. This is just my personal opinion.

All those questions you listed in your last post, I'm sure I listed somewhere in one of my posts back in the "day" of H's waywardness. It can all seem so impossible! But, I have seen it happen here over and over again. I have two friends here, one my client that I told you about, whose WW's are/have D'd them.

The other is my H's very good friend from his old work, who was almost his only friend during our separation. Soon after we reconciled, this friend called H up asking for name and number of our MC. Seems his W hadn't loved him for 4 years, and she wanted a D. Of course, my Infidelity radar came RIGHT up. Well, if hse doesn't love him, who does she love?

Turns out, it was an old boyfriend from another state. TONS of phone calls, emails, they got together when she went ALONE (HER choice) to her high school reunion this summer, and HER MOTHER helped her meet up with OM again on another vacation. I was the bug in this guy's ear, because he did what we all do ~ believe them. Really, what choice do you have until they confess, or you find HARD evidence?

He installed the keyboard software, and discovered the deceit. They are officially D'd. His family is broken, with 2 small kids. And right now he feels much HATE for her. He had no time to process the entire thing. I offered MB and SYMC to both these men, to help them through at least their OWN personal recovery, and neither posted.

If you follow the process of Plan B, for a while, you will reap the rewards. You can come to a place of calm acceptance. And you might feel you are there already. If that is the case, then I am not communicating well with you, or we are understanding each other in different ways. Because my impression is that you need more time. Your mind/body/heart will process this for you, if given the time.

You will sleep at night, regularly. You will find it much easier to do life's every day tasks. You will realize one day that you were working on something for several hours (say, that bathroom), and you didn't have one intrusive thought about your WW! You were thinking about that waterfront property, how to troubleshoot the fact that the sink isn't the right height for the pipes, whatever.

These things will begin to happen, tqt. You just need to give yourself some time. Be open to the possibility that YOU don't NEED to make any decisions right now. YOU have already done what you can to save your M. The ball is out of your court. Who KNOWS if your WW will do what needs to be done ~ you can only control you. Why not give it some time? When you have calm acceptance, you will not have to ask anybody if the time is right for you to either continue on in Plan B, or file for Plan D. You will know, and it will seem clear to you, IMO.

You still love her. You still want her. Give her the time for Plan B to get her thinking. Because if anything is going to get her thinking in a pro-M way, it is Plan B. Give Plan B time to work on YOU, for all the many reasons I listed above.

ANYone here will tell you that a week-long, or 2-week long Plan B is not long enough to reap any benefits. And there are many to reap, I promise you.

Hang in there, tqt. Give yourself the time you need to heal. When it begins to happen, you will know. Keep posting, keep asking questions, keep sharing your thoughts/feelings. This process WORKS, for you, on all levels. If I didn't believe in it so much, I would NOT spend so much time here. Sometimes, it is hard to see the way when you are surrounded by so many trees. That is why it is so important, IMO, that those of us who have found our way through those tough times (with the help of those who came before US), come here and guide.

I remember feeling just as you do. And the tether I had with the older members here, who said, "It gets better. You won't hurt like this forever. You will have personal recovery, even if your M doesn't recover."

And before my H came home, I was on my way to personal recovery. I slept with no medication, I did all my regular things again, I went for LONG periods of time without even thinking of my H. And when I did think of him, it was more of, "I hope he can figure out what he needs to do, before I get a little further down this path I am on, to where I don't think I will want him anymore."

And he sensed that. As soon as the shift came inside of me, is when he realized if he didn't do some hard work, he would lose me. It was just as much a miracle that my H finally took accountability, sought out counseling (NOT just going through the motions, but USING it), and genuinely came back to me.

He had to face a LOT of demons to do that. I honestly thought it would be impossible for him to come back, because as I got stronger, the requirements for him to come back got higher and more. But he rose to the challenge. And he is not the only WS to do so.

I have seen WS's, mostly men, from cultures/countries that infidelity is supported, come back to their M's. These hardened, prideful men, finally realizing that they cannot behave any way they want without consequences. WS's with A's that lasted YEARS, come back to their BS's. People who file for D, and the day before it is final, decide to rebuild their M.

You won't know how this is going to play out unless you give it some time to play out. If I would have filed on my H, I probably wouldn't be in this GREAT M right now. Because at that time, he would have signed off on it. Then what motivation would he have had to improve himself? I think I would be in a big mess now, if I had acted off emotion only then.

What say you to all of THAT?!

Spidey