</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I still sense you struggling with where you are at right now in your life. For some reason, you have not yet let go. I think that reason is that you haven't completely detached from her. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks, Spidey, for all that stuff to think about. For now just a quick thought on the above...

You're right. It's obvious. I haven't completely detached from her. Maybe I just don't see how it's possible(?) Meaning... if I'm in "Plan B" - which means I'm still trying to save my marriage, albeit as a last resort -- how can I detach at the same time?

Or... maybe I have detached more than it appears, even to me. Maybe it's more of a logistical/practical problem I'm dealing with. Maybe it's mostly because (and we've discussed this before) something's broken, and I can't rest until it's fixed. In this case, my marriage is broken, therefore my life is broken, and it a lot of ways, I'm broken.

And if I still want my marriage, well... there's only one way to "fix" everything.

Yes, of course I recognize, even as I say these things, that I can't "fix" her, or change her, or control her, etc. Just trying to figure out where my "inability to detach" is coming from.

Another thing I've thought about... I probably took POJA and related principles to a FAULT for the duration of our M. (and she called me controlling...) So... maybe I'm just not USED to making plans, significant decisions, etc. FOR MYSELF. I'm not saying it right, because it sounds borderline dysfunctional...

One example, and I'll leave it at that, for now...

Like I said before, I may want/need to sell the house. Spring/early summer is the best time, for a lot of reasons. It's going to take me a long time to prepare for that -- for me to sell the house this spring, I should be starting now.
And of course, that decision snowballs into lots of other decisions/opportunities/etc.

So... maybe I feel like, even a year later, she STILL has me in limbo... she still has MY life on hold. Maybe I'm just getting sick of it all. Shouldn't I be?

All I want from her is an answer to the question:

"Do you want a divorce?"

a) Yes
b) No
c) I don't know

Even (c) gives me a LOT more information than I have now. Don't I deserve an answer to that question, so I can move on if that's the only choice I have? And the fact that I'll accept -- for now -- an "I don't know" is pretty damn BIG of me, donchathink?
And WHY didn't I ask her that BEFORE going into Plan B?

BTW... moaning and whining to you IS going to get her off the fence, right?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!@#&(*(!!

Spidey...Are you sure you where just talking to tqt? My God every little thing you said...i am so serious, I am about to cry. I think I am going to copy that post and print it off to reread as needed. I am having a hard time detaching but I know I need too. I have no pain until there is contact, then I lose it. My H continues to deny any responsibility in the difficulties in our marriage, except for the fact that he didn't tell me sooner he was unhappy. He refuses to answer my questions about whether he loves me or even wants to love me again. I can not stay with someone who can not give me love.. I need more

Tqt
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> 1) what are the odds that she will want to reconcile?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H doesn't want a divorce but does nothing to make any changes towards reconciliation. Does she want a D?

2) [/QUOTE]
even if she decides she'd like to reconcile, what are the odds she'll have the strength to admit it?[/QUOTE]
As my spouse would say "Your fishin"

3)[/QUOTE]
will she change into a warm and caring person? (ok, now it's starting to sound far-fetched...)[/QUOTE]
Not any time soon

4) [/QUOTE]
will she ever be able to show remorse? genuine empathy? will she even be able to offer a heartfelt apology for what she's done?!?[/QUOTE]

Not while you are looking for one. Question is do you want her back if she can't?

5) [/QUOTE]
will she ever open up, show some humility, be comfortable in her own skin?[/QUOTE]

Ditto

6) [/QUOTE]
will she "grow up?" will she deal with her "issues" --- her "baggage" -- that for the most part she's probably been lugging around since she was a little girl -- she's 42 now.[/QUOTE]

As long as they don't think they have garbage, NO

7) [/QUOTE]
will I ever be able to trust her?[/QUOTE]

Probably not

10)[/QUOTE]
why am I holding on -- why HAVE I been holding on --- why did I try SO DAMN HARD to save my marriage, when I know there is SOMEONE out there SOMEWHERE who could and would "make me happier."
[/QUOTE]


I can't answer that for myself and I certainly can't answer for you. I think it is the fear of losing a good friend, a lasting comfortable place to fall. personally I have started to see that my H is unable to love me, has no empathy for me, has removed himself from his own children, hurts me every chance he can get by refusing to work with me, continues to lock me out. I really don't even think I love him any more, I am starting to think a divorce is the best thing for my mental health. I told him last night that I loved him very much but I could not be with someone who could not love me back. He said nothing.

Last night was the LAST night that I want to ever hear him say "your fishin" when I ask him for definitive answers about his love or desire to reconcile. I emailed him this am and told him "I don't much like ice fishing. Too damn cold, and a lot of sitting and waiting for nothing. I am putting my fishing gear away until it gets warmer."

I almost felt like saying I was going to look for a new pond to fish in. Maybe i would get a bite or two!!

Hi Homer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

From everything you said... aren't you due for Plan B, or am I misunderstanding your situation?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I really don't even think I love him any more, I am starting to think a divorce is the best thing for my mental health. I told him last night that I loved him very much but I could not be with someone who could not love me back. He said nothing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm clearly no expert, but isn't this "time for Plan B" material?


Spidey,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He had to face a LOT of demons to do that. I honestly thought it would be impossible for him to come back, because as I got stronger, the requirements for him to come back got higher and more. But he rose to the challenge. And he is not the only WS to do so.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She's got demons coming out the ying-yang... and though I have very little confidence she'll "exorcise" them (ie. get some help, for starters), it may not even matter. What I mean is, rather than rising to the challenge as your H did, my WW was taught by her mother that she had to be able to take care of herself (because HER H was a serial adulterer, and ultimately left her and my WW high and dry).

My point is, my WW, proud as she always was anyway, now I think is all warm & fuzzy because she's proven to herself (and her mother, and her demons...) that she CAN be independent. This has been passed down thru the generations, btw... WW's grandmother spent the last 30+ years of her life alone (failed marriage), and died that way.

So WHAT was I talking about, anyway(?)

tqt,

I have been in and out for this week, but I do I recall correctly that you have been in plan B about a week?? If that is so, please calm down. Going into plan B is like withdrawal is for a WS. It takes a while for you to get through the lose of contact with her. She won't have that problem because she has OM, but gradually as you come through your withdrawal, you just might find her going into hers from you.

So don't contact her or ask her any questions right now. Stay dark, and do it for a month or so. You can start to prepare the house for sale without her knowledge, because you can always decide NOT to sell it if circumstances change.

Just grit you teeth and get through the withdrawal period and you will see things in a different light. It will take a month or so. Give it that much time and THEN reevaluate. I think you will see things differently.

By the way, you need to realize that OM's bank account in the Love bank is high, and it will take him awhile to drain it down as he has to meet all of WW needs. It will happen but it won't if you are there for her. So step back, and let time take its course.

You can plan, you can prepare, you can get on with your life, but let her alone until YOU come to some decisions based on data and facts.

God Bless,

JL

Yeah, what Just Learning said! How can that man say in a small little space what it takes me a whole page to write??? Must be his almost 9000 posts, hmmmmm.

That is what I was trying to say, in a nutshell.

Maybe I SHOULD take some writing classes before I start my book . . .

AND, I ALWAYS listen to what JL says. He is very wise, and very old (er, member number, I mean <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

Take care, tqt.

Homer, these are lessons and concepts for everyone here. There is a reason why we often refer to "scripts." It is scary how "alike" we all are, just the details change.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">do I recall correctly that you have been in plan B about a week?? If that is so, please calm down. Going into plan B is like withdrawal is for a WS. It takes a while for you to get through the lose of contact with her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi JL... yes, just about a week in Plan B.
I just wasn't prepared for how it would hit me. It quickly became apparent how much hope I did have -- I didn't realize the extent of it. Even though we had only limited contact before, from day to day I knew she MIGHT call me, email me, or just show up... and I knew I could contact her at the drop of a hat.

All that, of course, vaporized when I hung up the phone after delivering Plan B.

The loss of... not control over the situation, because I never had any -- but the loss of influence, perceived or real, over what happens day to day as this thing pans out. Helplessness... that's probably the feeling I'm dealing with.

Yes, I'm not helpless when it comes to me. That's the point, I know.

SO many different emotions all at once. Including in the whole mess... do I still really want this M as much as I did before?

I do need to stop fighting the advice and admonitions of all you wonderful experts.

Yes, I'll give it more time, and yes, I'll try to calm down, and yes.... I will be fine. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I reserve the right to bitc# and moan on a daily basis, however... without that, this wouldn't be any fun at all! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Thanks, you guys.

And Spidey, I want you to know... I enjoy and appreciate every single word of your thoroughness <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> every bit as much as I enjoy and appreciate JL's conciseness and brevity... and that's the truth <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Hello tqt,

Man it sounds like your getting some really great advice. I'm sorry to hear that your now in Plan B (I've been gone a while), however I'm glad that your going to start taking care of yourself now that your IN plan B. Isn't that what plan B is all about now. You, you, you. Do some self-reflection and decide what you want out of life and go for it. Hopefully as Spidey and JL have said that soon your WW will start getting withdrawls for you and change her ways.

I'm praying for you,
Native

Hi Native... where ya been, man?
Thanks for checking in - I appreciate it.
I noticed you've been hopping around spreading encouragement and good cheer...

How are YOU doing??


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do some self-reflection and decide what you want out of life </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">hmmm... polygamy ??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> hmmm... polygamy ?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bite your tongue off!!! WTH??? You think you want MORE THAN ONE WOMAN in your HOUSE???

You are either crazy, or totally nuts.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are either crazy, or totally nuts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, wait a second... why can't I be both?

And think about it. Multiple women (no more than 6 or 7) in the house means:

a) When one "strays," there's still a bunch left.

b) If I'm lucky, I'll never have to clean another toilet as long as I live.

Spidey, I think maybe you're envious of my logical mind, but I'll keep that thought to myself.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey tqt,

I've taken a little break lately. Trying to deal with my own world of drama. I'm glad to be back though and "spread my 2 cents".

I'm pretty sure your joking about the polygamy thing right... I don't want another woman near me at this point in my life. At least not in a relationship way <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Native

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm pretty sure your joking about the polygamy thing right... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeah, I was joking.

Of course, I'm not saying that if I came home to find six women in the hot tub, I'd throw five of 'em out.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't want another woman near me at this point in my life. At least not in a relationship way </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree...relationships are highly overrated!

Yeah I've been trying to figure out a way to get a hot tub installed!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yup I'm not ready for anybody right now. I'm still licking my wounds.

Native, about the hot tub -- what's the problem?

This is the unofficial MB Home Improvement thread, btw -- so you came to the right place. Spidey can attest to that.

Actually it's not the install thing. It's the buying one, getting the deck ready for it, and then installing it thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Native

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually it's not the install thing. It's the buying one, getting the deck ready for it, and then installing it thing.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sounds like a project... and a helluva lot more fun than Plan B...

I'll be there shortly. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Yup a project I look forward too. Plan B... not so much, I think I skipped over Plan B. I skrewed up in that aspect.

Stay strong tqt, hopefully we'll both come out stronger on the other side!!

Native

Hopefully you'll come out stronger on the other side??? ABSOLUTELY you will come out stronger on the other side. Trust me. MB even works for whimps like me. I used to be scared of my own shadow! Now I am the Slayer!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I had a GREAT post started yesterday, full of wisdom (work with me here, people), and wit (again, WITH me people!). And I stopped part way through, as I often do, because kids got home, or H came home, or laundry needed to be cycled, or dinner prepared, or WHATever reason.

Then I kinda forgot about the post. My highly motivated H came in the computer room last night and RIPPED all that ugly molding off. Then he spackled. And moved everything except our 3 computers and their desks, and the chinchilla out of the room (the chinchilla is FREAKING out). And apparently he accidentally unplugged mine, and the post was gone. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

Oh well. At least he left my computer on . . . it's the only one. Of course, I pay the bills on it, so . . .

Tonight we paint the whole room with primer. Then we go CAMP ON SNOW with the Scouts this weekdend (I am totally nuts). Then we paint the room. I'm thinking yellow and cream. Not sure yet. It is the only room in the house with wooden baseboards (brown), and brown wooden blinds. So, I am saying goodbye to the Pocahontas room. Goodbye, and Good Riddance!!!

I'll stop in later, boys. Be good!

Spidey

Not much time, so I'll have to shorthand.

Here's the scoop, in a nutshell:
My name is tqt, and I'm a Plan B Flunkie.

More accurately, a Plan B Conscientious Objector.

For me, and no one else, I'm planning on breaking out of Plan B for one phone call this weekend. I'm going to ask WW/STBXW a question I've never asked before: Do you want a divorce?
I'm going to tell her that the only answers I can accept are yes, no, and I-don't-know.
(By the time I make the call, I may decide to eliminate the I-don't-know option)

Here's the bottom line, in outline format:

- The odds of her quitting her job are perhaps 1 in 1000. She'd have to quit her job for us to reconcile.
(that being the case, the rest of this list is irrelevant)

- It's been almost a year since D-Day
- Almost 365 days of me giving, loving, trying, forgiving... and getting absolutely nothing but selfish, cruel, thoughtless, hurtful crap from WW.
- She's the most self-absorbed person I've ever met
- She needs counseling, and refuses to get it
- She probably needs medication (AD) but refuses to take any steps to that end
- She has character traits that will never change, and which are not conducive to a happy, healthy relationship (of any kind)
- My resentment is growing... I held it at bay for a long, long time.
- I find myself liking her less and less every day
- Plan B, which is supposed to protect my feelings for her, is not working for ME.

enough said... I'm sure there's another 20 things I could add to the list.

The point is, I deserve better, and I will eventually find it.

All this talk throughout MB/forums about not being able to change someone else... of COURSE that makes sense... but it's for that very reason that trying to reconcile and have a happy marriage with my WW is futile -- she will HAVE to CHANGE before that could happen. And she's not going to change.

I'm not quitting... not giving up, per se... just making her accountable for the end of our M, as she should be.

So, when I ask her: "Do you want a divorce?"

If she says: "Yes" I say: "OK!" And then I "pressure her" (ie. I bug her, pester her, whatever...) into filing, and putting our M out of its misery. (I even thought that insisting that she go thru that process could get her to wake up and change her mind, but it'll be too late for me, I think)

If she says: "No" I ask her to explain herself and then attempt to translate her explanation into something that resembles rational thought. (ha!)

If she says: "I don't know" I'm not sure about this one... maybe go back into Plan B...

Gotta run....

I really do have to run, but since I hear Spidey's 2x4's clanking around, I really REALLY gotta run <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

tqt,

I am sitting her sort of laughing. Not at you. You are not a plan B flunkie. You are finding out what it says very carefully here. Plan B will slow down the love loss, but eventually if nothing changes the love will be lost. Further, plan B lets the BS go through withdrawal so that they can see things more objectively. Your posts suggests that you are seeing things very clearly and can now properly deal with this situation.

tgt, plan a, and plan b worked the problem is the outcome is not what you want. Why do I say it worked? Can you look in the mirror and say you did all you KNEW how to do to save this marriage? Can you look in the mirror and say you could have forgiven her IF she had tried at all? Can you go on now and KNOW how to have a much better relationship and perhaps future marriage?

If so, then this worked. The idea of this site and Harley's approach was to give the marriage the maximum chance to make it and prosper knowing that not all marriages will make it. It is meant to show people how a relationship should go, can go, and be rebuilt to go IF both parties decide to do it. You now know a lot.

Your marriage may not make it. But you are not a failure if it does fail. You are a man that gave it all you could and used all you knew how to use.

You have nothing to apologize here for, TGT.

God Bless,

JL