</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Can you look in the mirror and say you did all you KNEW how to do to save this marriage? Can you look in the mirror and say you could have forgiven her IF she had tried at all? Can you go on now and KNOW how to have a much better relationship and perhaps future marriage?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, on all counts, JL!
Thank you for your thoughtful words. I very much appreciate them.


I'm going to wait until Sunday to call her.

Hmmm... maybe at half-time of the Eagles game...

then she can ask me if I'm wearing the Eagles shirt she dropped off for my birthday in late November... so nicely wrapped... (and I thought it was "a good sign" that she did so...)

and I can remind her that I had to track her down to OM's place that evening to thank her...

and then I'll say "Nope, not wearing it... and don't expect I ever will."

tqt...heard from Spidey yet? Hope everything is OK with her.

Anyhow how are things with you? Whats happened in the past 4 days?

Hi Homer!

I've heard nothing from Spidey. I am worried about her... Wish she'd just check in to say she's ok.

Nothing's happened in the last four days... well, almost nothing. I was in the process of wimping out on calling her on Sunday, and then, wouldn't you know it, she called me. Guess she didn't care about breaking my "Plan B" no-contact rule.

I wasn't home, but she left a message...
"Hi, it's me, I just called to say 'Go Eagles.' I was going to go to (restaurant/bar) with the gang, but decided to stay here and get some (work stuff) done and watch the game. Hope you're ok in our new winter wonderland (lots of snow here) Bye."

So, IOW, it was OM's weekend with his son, so WW got lonely, bored... who knows. I thought it was interesting that she decided to stay home alone for the big game, rather than go out to be with friends. Maybe not -- maybe OM was showing up before too long anyway...

All that aside, I've decided (again) to call her tonight, and tell her that since she obviously wants a divorce, she needs to get moving on it.
I may be screwed-up, but I still don't want to be the one to file first. I'm not entirely sure why, but I think the biggest reason is that since she blew up our marriage, she should be the one to do the dirty work.

As time goes on, my head continues to go in different directions...

When I imagine her coming back (it's not going to happen, but I do find myself imagining it once in a while), all I can feel is BIG-TIME STRESS.

I've thought about how much trouble I would have with the PA part of it, ie. thinking of OM/WW together in that sense. I'm not sure if I could handle it, even if WW wanted to come back.

I've gone up and down and back and forth... one minute not caring a whole helluva lot about her, and the next minute feeling terribly sorry for her.

All for now...

I hear ya TQT...At this point I don't want to be the one to file either, but I am certain my WH won't. So my plan is to file at the end of Feb so that I can get on with my life.
At times I worry about him and how he will handle it since I think he has problems with depression, but I also realize that I am killing my soul in the process of waiting for him to decide. There should not have to be a decision of whether or not you love someone. You should know. I finally have realized if he doesn't have it, it ain't coming back.

I finally realized why I get so angey with him when he treats me poorly. It is not that he makes me feel bad about myself. It is more like "how dare you not recognize my value, you idiot" "how dare you think yourself too good for me" I know my value based on what my family, friends, co-workers, and bosses say and it certainly ain't what you seem to think it is"

If you call her tonight and tell her you are divorcing, expect the rage and the words to come back that make you the guilty party. Just respond by telling her that you have tried all that you can and that you still love her but can't continue to live like this. Then say goodbye. Don't listen to the rant. Let her deal with that on her own. Just make sure you follow through. I expect my husband will throw it back at me and say fine if that is what you want. He won't come back...he won't say he is sorry...he won't give into my EN's. So it is as good as done for me.

We are good people with bad choices in spouses. We both are confident enough that we will find another, so why do we drag our feet? Not sure, all I know is that I am tired of it. I am ready to be loved in everyway possible and I realize that I have a new and exciting life ahead of me. Personally I can't wait. I have learned from my mistakes and I don't want to die with regrets of investing all of the love I have to give in someone who doesn't recognize its value.

Let me know what happens, OK?

You two shouldn't worry about me! But thanks for thinking of me. Well, after so MANY MANY MANY coats of spackle, primer, paint, and a final coat of sponging . . . we have a beautiful new computer room. *sigh* This is the HARDEST room in the house we have done, by far. Holy cow.

But, now I am back, with so many emails. I haven't even checked my Outlook account!

Anyway, I hope you have a successful phone call, tqt. I hope she has an answer for you, one way or the other. I am kinda confused on one part, though. I guess I thought her actions up to now indicated her "I don't know" answer. I don't think you should accept that answer, as I think you will hear it, end the phone call, and sit there and realize you know no new information.

Good luck! Hey, have you finished that bathroom yet? I tell ya, a good 5 days of hard physical labor, and single-minded focus, and it will be done! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

Well tqt,

Sounds like you've had your hands full lately with the big game, your WW phone call, and you thinking about calling her and calling her out on the D.

Somehow in reading your posts I failed to realize that you've been at this for a WHOLE YEAR. That is crazy good of you... I don't know how you can do that, I don't think I could. You are obviously way stronger than I could be!!

Now this is just my 2 cents and don't put much stock in it but after a year wouldn't your WW be considered a cake-eater? I mean come on... make up your mind already. As JL said you have come to realize what Plan B is all about and you are stronger for it. It sounds like you have gotten over your withdrawls for your WW. So here it comes... it sounds to me (it seems to me, in my newbie mind) that your WW is totally on the fence and NEEDS something to get her off. Your strong enough to go for the D if she wants it yet you still have hope. So if you don't want to file then why not go MAJOR DARK? Absolutely no contact, no email, no visits, change your cell number. Drop off the face of the earth. Of course your WW still knows where you live and knows your friends. So if you going dark pushes her off the fence she could (if she really wanted to, and by doing that wouldn't that show you how serious she was) find a way to contact you.

Just an early morning thought, if I'm way off please excuse as I just got off a 12 hour shift.

Native

Good Morning Homer, Spidey, Native,


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We are good people with bad choices in spouses. We both are confident enough that we will find another, so why do we drag our feet? Not sure, all I know is that I am tired of it. I am ready to be loved in everyway possible and I realize that I have a new and exciting life ahead of me. Personally I can't wait. I have learned from my mistakes and I don't want to die with regrets of investing all of the love I have to give in someone who doesn't recognize its value.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Homer, there's a huge part of me that could've written the exact same thing, word for word. And that part of me is... quickly, I think... taking over the show...
I'm starting to figure out that, more and more, what's really hurting the most is grieving for what USED to be and what COULD'VE/SHOULD'VE been, rather than missing my W and wanting her back. As a friend so eloquently said: what you had is GONE.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You two shouldn't worry about me! But thanks for thinking of me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wha?!?!?! Spidey goes AWOL, and then says "don't worry?!??!"

UNacceptable <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Glad you're ok <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And congrats on the computer room!


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I guess I thought her actions up to now indicated her "I don't know" answer. I don't think you should accept that answer, as I think you will hear it, end the phone call, and sit there and realize you know no new information.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you, Spidey. The "I don't know" seemed acceptable for a couple days, but now it doesn't.

As far as calling her goes...I wimped out AGAIN last night. Then I started trying to figure out WHY I'm aborting my mission... 3 times now...
Gotta be a combination of: exposing myself to her caustic, hurtful demeanor... being afraid of what I'm going to hear... just not wanting to deal with the stress of it all... maybe being afraid of taking what will probably be the last step, and then moving into the realm of ending it all completely and permanently.

TONIGHT I will try again. I have to admit that part of me wants to keep laying low/dark, out of curiousity more than anything -- how will she handle it, and how long will it take her to do SOMEthing, one way or the other.... BUT, I can't wait any longer.

How she handles the call tonight should be interesting, to say the least.

And WHY she had to call on Sunday, I don't know. I've heard different theories, and the one that makes the most sense to me is that she simply wants to make sure I'm still around -- still here in case she needs me -- she can't sever things completely yet.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Somehow in reading your posts I failed to realize that you've been at this for a WHOLE YEAR. That is crazy good of you... I don't know how you can do that

...but after a year wouldn't your WW be considered a cake-eater? I mean come on... make up your mind already.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I've been at something for just about a year, but it wasn't until around August(?) that she started on her way out the door, and she left 10/4. Yeah, I guess it's accurate to say I've been trying to save my M for a year.
I often worry about how much damage this has done to me -- my psyche, my self-esteem, my self-worth, my trust in other people, etc.
I should NOT have gone on this long, I'm pretty sure of that.

And Native, I know it seems like cake-eating, but I'm pretty convinced at this point that she's not on the fence at all -- she's just too weak to do the dirty last deed and file for D. Of course, I don't know for sure...

Thanks all! Homer and Native, no matter what the chosen course... hang in there!!!!!

And Spidey, while you were away, the MB Forum Elders passed a new bylaw -- you must report in at least every other day, even if you have paint on your face. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ps. didn't START the bathroom project yet. Trying to decide if I'll end up selling the house -- if so, I'm not going to bother with it!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> didn't START the bathroom project yet. Trying to decide if I'll end up selling the house </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Selling Schmelling! I don't care!!! I have just been through the remodeling ringer, and I want others to join me!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Just kidding, of course.

I think you are avoiding the phone call for all the reasons you listed. I think I would be doing the same. BUT, you will come to dislike the not knowing, more than the dislike of confronting her, and you will do it. There was a great quote the other day, that said growth happens when the pain of being where you are, becomes greater than the fear of the unknown. Or something like that. At least when I mess up quotes that bad, I know I am not infringing on any copywrites!

I just cannot tell you how glorious my new room is! I stop typing and just gaze in awe at our creation. It used to be dark and cave-like, with the Pocahontas dark green and light green. Now it is a warm white, with a very nice yellow sponged over. It is now bright, and organized, and clean, and refreshing, and matches the rest of my house!

I am so happy in my heart. I am going to go to the gym now and be happy in my heart that way, too! Now if the sun would poke its head out of our inversion here, this Wednesday will be complete!

Spidey

What's going on??? Did you do it? Did you think about doing it? What are you feeling?

I read something yesterday, and I want to share it with you. I have gotten the impression (and I could be wrong, as I have been before! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ) that you are going to be making several major decisions based on what your WW might or might NOT say (house keeping/selling/remodeling, for starters).

Over on SYMC yesterday I read a thread on fear.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it was written by Richard Fetke:

4 Steps to overcoming fear:

FOCUS: Begin by getting focused on what you really want. What is your vision? What is your goal? What results do you want? Clarify the desired result. Get clear.

EXPLORE: Notice the warning signals. Notice your resistance. Notice your fear. Use fear as a friendly reminder to stop, be aware and resume control to best avoid failure or loss. Research the resistance.

ASSESS: Research what you discovered in step two. Look at your options and then create an action plan based on your research. Break your goal into small steps. What is your next step? What support could you get?

RESPOND: Choose to say "yes" to your plan or to say "no". Do you agree or disagree with the change you're facing? If you choose "no" then just go back to step one and repeat the process until you are ready. If you choose "yes" then take action. Expect the best! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then, further into the thread, I read this by 2long:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Pep posted another achronym on MB a year or 2 ago. It ended with "everything and run!" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Took me a minute to figure out what the F-word was, then I realized it was, well, the F-word. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

THEN, I read THIS:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">*My favorite self-help book: The Power of Now, -Eckhart Tolle

Here's an excerpt about "fear" that I was just thinking about:

"The Origin of Fear"

Q: You mentioned fear as being part of our basic underlying emotional pain. How does fear arise, and why is there so much of it in people's lives? And isn't a certain amount of fear just healthy self-protection? If I didn't have a fear of fire, I might put my hand in it and get burned.

A: The reason why you don't put your hand in the fire is not because of fear, it's because you know that you'll get burned. You don't need fear to avoid unnecessary danger - just a minimum of intelligence and common sense. For such practical matters, it is useful to apply the lessons learned in the past.

Now if someone *threatened* you with fire or with physical violence, you might experience something like fear. This is an instinctive shrinking back from danger, but not the psycological condition of fear that we are talking about here.

The psychological condition of fear is divorced from any concrete and true immediate danger. It comes in many forms: unease, worry, anxiety, nervousness, tension, dread, phobia, and so on. This kind of psychological fear is always of something that *might* happen, not of something that is happening now. *You* are in the here and now, while your mind is in the future. This creates an anxiety gap. And if you are identified with your mind and have lost touch with the power and simplicity of the Now, that anxiety gap will be your constant companion.

You can always cope with the present moment, but you cannot cope with something that is only a mind projection - you cannot cope with the future."

-Eckhart Tolle, The Power of Now
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That last part is where I am wondering if you have gotten yourself "stuck." Kind of overwhelming when trying to brace for EVERY possiblity all at once, based on one phone call. That phone call would seem terrifying and overwhelming to me, as well.

Perhaps just live in the moment. Let go of expectation, the future, making any decisions, other than that to pick up the phone, dial, and say, "Do you want a divorce?"

Then come here, post her answer/nonanswer, and we'll move on from there.

You are not alone. All of this can be broken down into baby steps, and I am probably coddling you into wanting to run screaming from this forum. Sorry. I just want you to know that you can do this, you will do this, and you will be better FOR doing it.

Hang in there.

Spidey

"OK"

That was my WW's response when I called her and said "It's time to get the ball rolling, don't you think?"

I wasn't prepared for an "OK."


Me: OK?? So what have you been waiting for?

WW: I just didn't want to get into the ugly stuff. I dunno, I don't know what to do, how to do it.

Me: And what you've done over the last year or two hasn't been ugly?

I told her to let me know what the plan was, etc. by Friday (tomorrow). IOW, what she's found out, progress, what she needs from me, etc.

I asked her -- again -- if people at work STILL don't know about her A. NOPE. IT'S STILL A SECRET. ?!?!?! What kind of relationship is that?! OM is divorced; WW left 4 months ago, and they still keep their R a secret?!?

OM may have been there when I called -- I'm not sure. She was completely VOID of ANY emotion.
She wasn't the same woman who called and left me that message on Sunday. That woman was still hanging on to something, for some reason. The woman I talked to last night didn't give a rat's @ss about me, us, our M, or our 24+ years together.

We'll see what she comes up with by tomorrow. If I don't hear from her, I'm planning to call her.

I now have to start figuring out a way to reconcile the fact that 24+ years of my life has just disappeared into some big black hole. It feels like a farce, a joke, a mistake, like it never happened. I just don't understand... we met when she was 17/18 years old, and she's 42 now. None of that matters to her? Is that how it works??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She was completely VOID of ANY emotion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My FWH pulled that act on me over and over again. He says NOW (hindsight 20/20, fog cleared out LONG ago, etc.) that the reason he had to shut down like that to me, is because he HAD to believe/justify/rationalize to himself, his actions. In order to do such horrific things, he HAD to be desperately in love with OW, it had to be "meant to be."

The last 24 years of your life, and her life, will not just disappear. I don't think she has ANY clue how hard it is going to be for her to do what you are asking her to do. That is why she is putting it off. On one level, she probably feels compelled to do it, to fit in with her rationalization/justification. But on the other hand, I don't think she truly believes that it is what she really WANTS.

And sometimes, even when people know WHAT they want, they get all hung up on how to GET what they want. So, even if she has entertained thoughts of reconciliation (perhaps the Eagle game night), the task/requirements/energy might seem overwhelming to her.

And as you have pointed out before, all these things are HER hangup. She either poops or gets off the pot. You are approaching/have reached your personal limit. Everyone has one, you have not failed anything, I agree 100% with JL.

It is natural and healthy to mourn the loss of what could have been. And just like mourning the death of a loved one, you will come through your grief, on the other side, and you will love again and be happy again. It is your right to be happy, to be fulfilled, to have everything that you want in life, in your M. That realization is hitting you like a freight train, and also the realization that your WW is not up to the task right now ~ perhaps she never will be, perhaps she never was.

BUT, we are in the moment of NOW. You will talk to her tomorrow again. Ask her if she has made an appointment with 1)a counselor and an employment agency, or 2)a divorce lawyer. The ball is in her court, you are waiting to see which direction you need to move as well.

{{{{{tqt}}}}}

Spidey

Spidey, you're pretty good at this stuff.
Let me rephrase that... you're DAMN good at this stuff.
Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Some self-serving drivel here...

Went to get a haircut at lunch time... and whoa!!
The cast of characters at the hair place:

1) The woman who cuts my hair (and has forever), is a long-time-ago WW herself, and knows the story.

Told her about the phone conversation; she said "it just sounds like WW doesn't have any idea what she wants."


2) Nice lady who was our (WW/me) next-door neighbor/friend for 10 years. (Only 2nd time I've seen her since we moved about 7 years ago. Last time, I told her WW was AWOL)

She asked about WW... told her it looks like it's just about over. She became sad, sorta stroked my arm and said "ohhhh... you're a very attractive man and a really great person... you're gonna be ok..." And I guess I really am wounded... because I felt like I could've lost it right then and there.


3) DIL of my great friend/co-worker -- DIL just started working at the hair place, and is going thru a D from my friend's son.
To set this mini-story up, I gotta say this (too) young woman is absolutely beautiful...

I don't know her very well, but... when she saw me come in, she came over and gave me a hug. Wow... is that what hugging a woman feels like? No wonder I miss it so much.
We talked a little bit, then talked more when I was ready to leave. She chatted on forever about her STBXH (whom I've known since he was a little kid), and knowing what I NOW know about such things, it was obvious that she was going overboard convincing me how happy she is now that she's left her H. I listened... and listened... eventually I made a motion to end the conversation, and she kinda grabbed my hand and pulled me towards her and gave me a kiss, and said "you're a very nice looking man... you won't have any trouble finding someone new."
(No, she wasn't hitting on me -- she has a boyfriend, and just moved in with him)

So... I came back to the office and told my friend that I just fell in love with her daughter-in-law. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Well, I just went to get a haircut, and came out with a sorely needed ego boost, at no extra charge.

I feel like a starving man on his hands and knees scarfing up any little crumb he can get his hands on.
It reminds me again just how horrific this whole thing has been -- how incredibly cruel my partner of 24 years has been to me. And, how pathetic I've become in such desperate need of love, physical touch, respect, admiration... and validation as a man.

Infidelity sucks.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Infidelity sucks. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Exactly! That should be our motto here at MB. It really sums up the whole experience, huh?!

Well, I only know you cyberly, and you seem like a well-rounded individual to me. I have every single confidence that as soon as the D papers are signed, if that is the road you go down, you will very shortly thereafter have a date lined up with an equally attractive, dynamic, interesting individual. Hopefully a woman, but beggers can't be choosers, right? ROTFLMAO!!! I am just kidding. That just kinda came upon me, and I had to jot it down ~ in response to your self-serving drivel in the last post. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Are you going to stop posting to me now? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I know. I wonder why it is that we as BS become so seemingly needy for attention and validation after the infidelity experience. What I mean by that is, after a couple months of no intimacy with H during our separation, I went out one night and was VERY tempted to just say, "Ah, to he!! with it, it doesn't even matter anymore, it's all ruined anyway" so that I could be with a handsome man who seemed very smitten with me (we were drinking, the bar was not well lit and smokey . . . ).

And I have single friends that go for MONTHS and YEARS with no intimacy, no boyfriend/girlfriend, no companion besides their pets. But I see here all the time how BS's CRAVE the feeling of being wanted ~ I had the SAME feeling. I just wanted to feel wanted again, admired, loved, treasured.

Is it because we have been in a long-term relationship so long, we get used to a certain level of physical touch, emotional closeness? OR, is it a natural reaction to being rejected by someone we have let in so close? I just brought this question up to my H the other day, as I have been thinking about it a lot lately. I don't remember if we talked about it, because we have been working madly on the house, but . . .

tqt, I promise you that you will be happy again one day. And by coming here, you have learned the tools to either rebuild bigger and better than ever, OR, to create something incredible with someone new ~ because now you know a LOT more than you did. Hopefully. Just learning about EN's and better communication skills has helped my M sooo much.

I also wanted to share a story shared with me at 3 am on some horrible morning shortly after D-day when I couldn't sleep (or eat, or think, or do anything), by Suzet who lives in South Africa, and was up at that crazy hour. She gave me a poem, kind of a prayer, and it talked about how it is in the valleys of our lives that we grow. And that without the valleys, we would not know to appreciate the peaks in our lives when we reach them. Without the contrast, what would Joy be?

Before the A, I was on autopilot. I took my M, my family, for granted. I didn't know myself very well, eihter. I thought I would die if my H left me! Now I kill spiders!!! I thought I would never be happy again, and this is the happiest, the most alive, I have been in years. I thought there was NO WAY my M could recover. H said he would always be OW's friend, that our personalities pre-disposed us to not having a successful M, that he had never even loved me. I never thought he would go to counseling, I never thought he would see OW for what she really was (not evil, but she didn't have his best interests at heart, and he was convinced she did for a long time), I never thought she would leave Scouts.

By the time he came home, my requirements list had become quite extensive. I decided if I was going to go through all that pain, then we were either going to 1)recover well and fully and make bigger better more, or 2)call it quits and move on and find all that somewhere else.

So, realize you are in a valley, to learn and grow. And you will come out, into the sunshine again, and begin ascending the peak. And once up there, you will fully appreciate being there ~ more than you have ever appreciated anything in your whole life, IMVHO. G'night, tqt.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">have a date lined up with an equally attractive, dynamic, interesting individual.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey, what happened to WEALTHY?!? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hopefully a woman, but beggers can't be choosers, right? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well... things WOULD be a lot easier if I just decided to start playing for the other team...


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you going to stop posting to me now?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Unfortunately, I can't stop posting to you. I may need your help picking out paint colors for the new bathroom.


Ok, ok, ok... here goes...
Gotta get this over with...........
My tail is between my legs, and my head is hanging down in shame.

I called WW again last night.

I succumbed to the need for more information.

Here's what happened:

Throughout the 3-4 minute conversation, I was calm, sorta friendly-but-not-too-friendly, bordering on indifferent.
My excuse to call was a notice in the mail from the vet about vaccinations.

Talked about that and the dogs for a second or two, then I asked her, "So how are you doin' -- ok?"
IMMEDIATELY her voice started quivering and she went into semi-crying mode...

WW: I'm really stressed out.
(now that I think about it, it sounded exactly like the "I'm just not happy" comment she made a couple months ago)
Me: About what?
WW: About all sorts of stuff. (I thought she said something like "about us.")
Me: About us?
WW: No, I said about all sorts of stuff, and us.
Me: Oh... well, you do have a lot on your plate right now.

Then she talked about some big mistake she made at work that ended up costing the co. a decent amount of $.

I listened for a little bit, then said "Ok, well... about last night's conversation... you DO want a divorce, right?"
She said something like "Yeah, it looks like that's what we have to do."
I said "Alright, I just wanted to make sure that's what you wanted."
Then I said goodbye.


I don't know WHAT the hell I'm doing, obviously.
She sounded really depressed, and as she said, stressed out.

So... now I'm worrying about her again. And I feel sorry for her again...still...

Maybe she's starting to figure out that she betrayed and abandoned not only her husband, but her best friend, and the only person who truly cares about her. How sad.... and how scared she must be.

What a mess she's made of everything...

I just don't know what to do. I feel like I'm abandoning HER, at a time when she needs help.
And, I feel like an idiot for even caring.
This is starting to wear me down, I think.

Thanks for listening.

ps. Spidey, everything you wrote in your last post was, as usual, helpful -- and right on target. Thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

pps. Homer, if you're reading this... how are you?

tqt, *sigh* what am I going to do with you?

I think the only solution to keep you off that phone is to bury you in work remodeling that bathroom. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Unfortunately, contacting her too much will give her the cake-eating fix she wants from you. Remember, in her perfect world, she gets OM with those outrageously over-rated "feelings," and YOU ~ her warm and comfey safety. Remember what I said, she has not forgotten 24 years. And with your absence, probably remembers your past more and more close to reality ~ how it really happened, not her rewritten version.

My H says that when I pulled away from him, he began remembering how great our M was, how well we worked together, how much "best friend" really means.

You should feel sorry for her. Perhaps because you never had children, this is harder for you. But try visualizing her as a child. Who needs to learn a tough lesson.

Her tough lesson, is that she is going to have to grow up. She is going to have to pull herself up by her own bootstraps, and become accountable. She can do this, tqt. Everyone has the capacity to grow, to learn. And the closer she is to rock bottom, the better, IMO.

This is something you need to learn to do, as well. You need to learn to stand back and WATCH her learn. You cannot hold her hand and guide her constantly. If you do that this time, again, and you reconcile, IMO you will be back in the same boat. She will always be vulnerable, until she discovers her own self-worth.

You can support and encourage. You can dangle the carrot of your support once she takes those first few critical steps on her own, but . . . SHE must do it.

Her natural consequences for her actions, YOU pulling your support from her, holds the mirror up to herself. If you show no consequences for her hurtful behavior, you are taking away the greatest gift a best friend/life companion can do for their friend ~ helping her grow.

I am not saying you need to treat her like a child, and perhaps this analogy I keep using is not the greatest. BUT, for instance, if I didn't enforce the consequences with my boys for their actions, they would not learn. They would continue in the same destructive/unproductive/disrespectful behavior. I owe it to them, as a good mother, as someone who cares and loves them, to make them unhappy when necessary ~ so they learn cheating doesn't work, lying doesn't work, not doing their work doesn't work.

It is my opinion, that as her friend, you need to help her the best way you can ~ enable her to grow up. Don't enable her A.

It is a fine line. But I know you know the difference. Sounds to me like Plan B can really work in your case, if you can give it some more time. I do not sense that you are quite ready for Plan D. And I don't sense she is ready, either.

Spidey

Yeah, Homer, what's going on? Sorry I haven't addressed many responses to you. Please don't let my lack of hospitality, on tqt's thread even, deter you from posting here.

Does your WH still tell you to "Go fish?" That would make me feel soooo irriatated if my H said that to me ~ "You're fishin."

I like your response you emailed to him the other day, about how you were done fishing for a while. Reverse babble, as Orchid would say.

Spidey

I'm still in a daze, but I'll give this a shot anyway...

Couldn't sleep at all last night, and finally decided I was sick of trying to sleep, so got up at 3:00 or so. By 6:00 my body was telling me the day would be half-shot and not at all productive unless I somehow managed to get another hour or two of sleep.

I rarely do this, but convinced myself to go back to bed. Grabbed a trusty old relationship book, and headed upstairs to read myself to sleep...

Next thing I knew, my wife was home. She was smiling and warm and loving and affectionate. It was dark out, but dark in a really strange way. She was holding my hand, and wouldn't let go.

She was gazing at me with big, beautiful eyes... her smile never went away... and then she led me outside... but it was more like we led each other outside.

And out of the darkness came the horses... first two, then another three... there were seven or eight of them. She was still holding my hand, and the first horse came right up to me, and nudged my face playfully...affectionately...

and woke me up.


Interesting way to start the day, for a guy who rarely dreams, let alone remembers them so vividly.

ps. to anyone reading the above and going "huh?"... I should explain that the only dream my WW ever told me she had, since she was a little girl, was to have a horse farm.

<small>[ January 29, 2005, 07:41 AM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

Wow. That gave me goosebumps. I believe that dreams are very powerful, especially when we can remember them. I have heard that dreams can be our mind's way of processing what is going on in our lives, maybe trying to sort it all out, make sense of it all ~ I don't know.

I rarely dreamed (that I remember) during mine and H's separation. The one dream I DO remember very well, not the details, but the TONE of the dream, was the night after I had decided to do something un-MB-like ~ give an ultimatum.

I had just read the book Love Must Be Tough, and it is a very good book. In it are two example letters to give to a WS. I decided on one of the letters, much more stern than an Plan B letter. I posted it here, and while everyone supported me and my decision, they cautioned me. They thought maybe I was moving too fast, wondered if I could give it more time, etc.

Because during that time I came to realize I didn't make THE best decisions on my own, I agreed to sleep on it before I sent the letter.

The dream I had that night was the only "bad" dream, amazingly, I had had through my entire separation. I woke up knowing very clearly that I was not supposed to send that letter, at least not yet.

Perhaps your dream was reminding you of what you could fight the fight of your life for, and win? I am an eternal optimist. I believe that my H and I married for a reason. I only wanted to be married once. I also believed that my H hadn't been "confused" or "faking" it all those years.

Until the day you come here and tell me to cancel the Spider Hope Express, it will be running here on this thread. Because I have seen a miracle happen in my own life and M, and I believe it is possible to happen in everyone's lives and M's. I don't think I'm any more special than you, I don't think I "lucked out" and recovered my M.

I hoped when there seemed to be none. I had a vision of what we could have one day. And I worked my butt off to make it happen. I ate crow, had egg on my face, swallowed my pride (no wonder I gained some weight back!). In a way, I feel I have no pride or ego left, because I can't let that rise up all the time, or I feel like running away. On the other hand, I feel that I don't need "false" pride or ego ~ I know my own self-worth, and I am so much more than I ever knew I could be.

I feel like I was tested, and I surprised the HECK out of myself. I now know that I will fight for what I believe in. That hope has real power in this world. And that love is an amazing and complex thing, and I refuse to put limits on it again.

tqt, that dream to me is the engine on my Hope Express right now! Uh-oh, you have resurrected a beast!

If you tell me to go away, I will simply lurk in silence. I just can't get away from the feeling that your story is faaaaar from over.

Did you feel rested from the dream? Did you have an overall feeling when you woke up? Or was it more just images?

I sure am nosey!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In a way, I feel I have no pride or ego left, because I can't let that rise up all the time, or I feel like running away.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, I want to understand this better... what do you mean?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">On the other hand, I feel that I don't need "false" pride or ego ~ I know my own self-worth, and I am so much more than I ever knew I could be. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This "pride" stuff can be difficult to get a grasp on, at least for me. My definition of pride was always such that it can go in one of two directions --- the good way, or the not-so-good way.
I'm not a particularly religious person, so I'll sound ignorant about this.
In fact, a quick search just now came up with this (the first hit was deadlysins.com):

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
What it is: Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Why you do it: Well-meaning elementary school teachers told you to "believe in yourself."

Your punishment in Hell will be: You'll be broken on the wheel.

Associated symbols & suchlike: Pride is linked with the horse and the color violet.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That last part -- the horse -- whoa! that could be downright spooky, if I let it be...

So, when I've said my WW is "too proud to come back" -- I guess I'm not using the right word(?)


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I feel like I was tested, and I surprised the HECK out of myself. I now know that I will fight for what I believe in. That hope has real power in this world. And that love is an amazing and complex thing, and I refuse to put limits on it again.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But...but... as much as I understand, and as much as I agree, and as much as it's the Real Me to be "the same way," I seem to be (ALSO) constantly fighting an internal battle between all of that and --- the "reality" of things.
Not well said, but hope you know what I'm trying to say. And it IS frustrating to feel that way. Hmmm... or am I simply describing the plain old store variety of... "limbo?"

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, that dream to me is the engine on my Hope Express right now! Uh-oh, you have resurrected a beast! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes, Spidey! Now *I* have goosebumps! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you tell me to go away,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I sorta doubt that's gonna happen.... (are you nuts?!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I will simply lurk in silence. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And I KNOW THAT'S not gonna happen. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I just can't get away from the feeling that your story is faaaaar from over. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">(That's good, because the publisher just told me we need at least another six chapters.)

I'll admit, I'm starting to ask myself if there's something wrong with me.
Because... part of me really hopes you're right.

(For the record, the other part is wondering if by the time this is all said and done, The Blonde at the gym will have ridden off into the sunset, married with seven kids)

All of that thinking and wondering leaves VERY little time for bathroom remodeling projects <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Did you feel rested from the dream? Did you have an overall feeling when you woke up? Or was it more just images? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To be honest, it was a bit upsetting. The images were definitely still there, then I felt a small amount of some liquid substance exit my left eye and stream down the left side of my face.
I think I mumbled something like "oh my god." And then began to wonder whose idea of a sick joke THAT was...

It'll look good in the movie version, though, donchathink?

Pride and ego. My pride tells me I deserve someone who will love and respect me forever. That I deserve to be with someone who would throw themselves down on a stake before telling me they are in love with and sleeping with my best friend. Then leave me and our 2 children to do the "right thing," because he never loved me anyway. That I was the best he thought he could do (until something better came along, obviously). That he had even wished death upon me at one point, the mother of his children, his best friend of 15 years, so he could be with this seemingly better person, guilt-free.

My pride and my ego tell me that it is unacceptable to be with someone who is capable of treating me so horribly. Who at one point, was so hell-bent on doing what HE wanted, to make HIM feel better, that the boys and I cried ourselves to sleep each night for over 2 months. At one point, because of his actions, I had to convince his own children that he was not an evil monster, and that they shouldn't hate him (even though part of me, the un-mother part, thought they really should). My youngest son put tacs through H's face on all the pictures in his room, Disneyland pictures when they were on the rollercoaster.

This is just a fraction of the pride/ego things that go through my head, sometimes not just daily, sometimes hourly. Sometimes, I have to convince myself moment to moment that I did the right thing.

Then, when I move out of pride and ego, what I "deserve," I think about it all so differently.

Just because someone has made a mistake, albeit a very painful mistake, does it make them forever cursed and unlovable? Unsafe? Why do I think that my H's messed-up actions and words really have anything to do with me at all? They really don't. He made a bunch of choices that he will pay for inside himself for years and years. He wasn't even thinking of me when he made those decisions. His A was all about HIM.

If we are all capable of having an A under the "right" set of circumstances (and I believe we are), would I want to be condemned, or discarded, for my lack of good judgement? Would I want another chance to prove myself? Would I want that one person who promised to love me for better or for worse to NOT give up on me, and our M?

My opinion about pride and ego, is that they really have no place in a M. Boundaries, yes. "That hurts me, please don't do it anymore," is a boundary. "I deserve this and that, and you should give it to me," is pride and ego to me.

What I learned, is that my H's actions/beliefs have no power over MY love of him. I want them to sometimes, my ego wants them to. I want to say, "I cannot love someone who has done this." But I do love him. Even when he said he had never loved me and didn't love me, I still loved him. Even if his actions are so unsafe that I cannot be M'd to him anymore (which does not seem to be the case), I would still love him. For me, he will always be my H, my best friend. I will always know and love that person in my heart, even if he becomes lost to himself again.

Because if I hadn't remembered that person, and loved that person, could he have found his way back to himself? And vice-versa?

I definately think that your wife's pride and ego is what keeps her from coming back. She might believe she has to grovel forever, be repentant forever, to come back to M. This might be HER belief, based on what she thinks she would require of you if the roles were reversed. That, coupled with a healthy dose of FEAR, and she is stuck.

Given time, though, time for Plan B to work, I think she will find the fear of being without you (her stability, her love, her H), is far greater than the fear of making some changes. She needs to find her own motivation. I think she can, if you can give her more time.

I think this A is the rack that broke my pride. It is still there, but I now know that it does not serve me. On any level.

Spidey