</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I still believe that there must be situations in which the Plan B protocol is not the best way to save the marriage at all costs. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, there ARE situations in which Plan B is not the best way to save the M. However, I DO NOT see that as the case with you, my little impatient padawan learner.

AND, in all of your circular thinking, you forgot to pick up the cutie girl! WTH??? I thought you guys were bringing a boat to Idaho!

SEE what happens when you don't stay focused on Plan B? SEE??? I hope you have (finally) learned your lesson, and that we don't have to go over this (again). <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

No offense, but if you truly are like my H, I already know we will be going over this again. And I do enjoy the challenge. Keeps me sharp for H, and he really does appreciate it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spidey

LOL Spidey!!!

I can sympathize with trying to fast track things, I end up gumming up the works, while attempting to grease the wheels everytime, but it's hard not to find the quick fix.

I thought about looking into brainwashing, or deprogramming....then I'll start my own businiess of kidnapping WS's and deprogramming them...it will of course be very costly, and I will perfect it on other people's WS..not mine..lol

***Envisioning me with a cattle prod doing negative reinforcement..."NO! NO! OP IS BAD" bzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzttttt.

-Caren

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahem.....so I'm sitting here with my bags packed waiting to go to Idaho.....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sorry Caren... I had to get the damn gutters cleaned first!

And did you say "bags?" There's no room for bags!
Ok, we're going to have to make a decision here... somethin's gotta go... and it's either YOUR makeup, or MY boating supplies (IOW, beer <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ).
Sheeesh! Are we gonna get into our first fight before we even hit the #^$*&! road?!?!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my little impatient padawan learner. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Cool! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I know this seems really bizarre, and I know you won't believe me... but that is the FIRST time ANYone has EVER called me that. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honestly, there ARE situations in which Plan B is not the best way to save the M. However, I DO NOT see that as the case with you, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why? Could you give me one little hint?
If you do, I promise I'll stay out of Plan C for the entire day. Well, until noon, anyway.

ps. please hurry... there's a very cute girl with NO MAKEUP waiting for me in Ohio. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

OK, according to my Marriage Coaching classes, the only time to NOT be in Plan B, is when the WS is showing a genuine interest in communicating about important issues (ie, the cable bill DOES NOT count), and before Plan B has been entered.

In those few cases, a completely dark Plan B (actually, where I am learning, it is called Protection Phase) does not make sense ~ but the first move MUST be made by the WS.

BS initiating any type of relationship convo after officially entering Plan B or PP, is a big fat NO-NO.

No no, no no, no no, no no, no no.

If your WW called you up today and said, "I am ready to make some decisions. Can you meet me for lunch?"

I would advise you to go. Because she is either going to tell you 1)she wants to try and get rid of OM and work on the M, 2)she is sure about D and wants to talk particulars with you, 3)she cannot make any decisions about anything (including the cable bill) and you take away from that meeting whatever you will regarding where she is at.

It is my very strong opinion, that she will not be forthcoming with any information for you, until she is darn good and ready to. And she will let you know. And that is just where you are at. So, stop struggling, stop fighting it, get in your car and go get the girl and come boating in Idaho! Sheesh!

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is my very strong opinion, that she will not be forthcoming with any information for you, until she is darn good and ready to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One piece of information that is important to me is... is OM going to Fla with her in March?
(It could be as soon as next week)

If he is going, that means he is now being "integrated" into her family (MIL will be in Fla also).

It seems like that's a reasonable milestone at which to declare my M beyond recoverable. For me.

Between WW and me, I am the "strong" one in this R, and if I have my doubts about being able to (personally) recover, I very honestly have NO confidence that WW is strong enough to do it. Does that make any sense?

This Fla trip is huge for me.

I'm not making the timeline here -- she is. I'm not making the choices here -- she is. I'm not controlling anything -- she is. And somewhere along this timeline, there's going to be that one last little straw that breaks the camel's back.

This isn't WS fog. This is real life, day-to-day choices that she is making.

ALL I want is a(nother) chance to live my life unencumbered by all this CRAP.

And to go boating in Idaho, of course. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

tqt...I have to agree with you the Fla trip would be a decision maker for me as well. I will be honest with you, although I have a WH, it was an EA and as far as I know was never more and nothing more has occurred since DDay. If it had been, or if I find out more...I would be filing. Not because that would negate all the love I carry, but it would be the biggest slap in the face. Just the fact that you have held out as long as you have considering an ongoing A is miraculous. You need to give yourself permission to let go, give yourself credit for hanging in there as long as you have. Don't linger on the what if's anymore. Get your answer and make the move.

You are a better person than I am.

I truely understand how hard it is. I broke down today and asked my WH if he would be willing to sit down and read a "Marital Help" book together.
I am sure I know the answer, but it is almost as if every negative answer I get it fills up my "Divorce Bank". I will probably get in trouble for coining a phrase so anti-MB, but it is how I feel. Like we all have said...everyone has their breaking point...I am looking at it as everyone has their wholeness point. When we become whole within ourselves without the WS then we will be strong enough to move on.

I am nowhere near that but every painful conversation...or lack of any communication...just adds to my realization that I am going no where unless I go there alone.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> One piece of information that is important to me is... is OM going to Fla with her in March? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">tqt, perhaps in some ways we are missing each other on this point. If you feel that the answer to this question will make a decision in YOUR mind one way or the other, then by all means, ASK HER. I hope she has the decency to give you a yes or no answer, as I remember the LAST time you asked her this, she kind-of mumbles some stuff, unintelligible, and indicated she hadn't quite decided.

So, by asking, you do take the risk she will choose to give you more indecision and mumbo-jumbo. I'm not even calling it fogese, because you are probably right, she might not be in any fog at all. This could very well be where she is at right now, and for the forseeable future, and nothing will change. I don't know.

What I DO take issue with is you calling her to get her to make a decision about whether she wants a D or not. And I object to you doing that because it sends you into a tailspin, takes you a while to get back to thinking straight again, and does YOU absolutely NO GOOD. I have watched you do it a couple different times, and I have no reason to believe that the end is going to change.

So, if you want to ask her a yes or no question about the trip, go for it! BUT, once she answers you, you and only control you. So, that means that if she is taking him, and it is a deal-breaker for you, you just go start the paperwork. You don't even need to tell her. Honestly. Because telling her almost seems like manipulation, like you are "giving her one last chance." If she is taking him, and you cannot have that, then file. She'll find out when she gets the paperwork. AND, she will have AMPLE time to talk to you then, if she chooses to.

IF her taking OM is NOT that big of a dealbreaker, if it is not "I'm going straight to the D lawyer now, not passing go, not collecting $200, because she is taking him to FL," then I would rethink WHY you are wanting to find out. Because if it is to use the D word to try and get her to reconsider, or to not do this thing that will hurt you very much, then you are setting yourself up for failure. Do you understand what I am saying? *just smile and nod* <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

I would also like to say (the dramatic aside: and furthermore, I would ALSO like to say, OT, but, I don't know WHAT the topic here is, so it is probably ON topic), that I didn't even know you (tqt) posted to Caren. I just saw that in her sig line, and thought she had picked it up somewhere. Isn't that funny? You two DID know each other!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't that funny? You two DID know each other!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Heck yeah, Spidey! See, while you're spending all your time selflessly helping people, the rest of us are out galavanting around the neighborhood! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Besides, did you really think I was going to pick up a complete stranger for the trip to Idaho?
Shame on you, Ms. Spidey! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you do take the risk she will choose to give you more indecision and mumbo-jumbo.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, I'm glad you said that, because I've been meaning to ask this...

It's so, so sad that something like this comes down to a cost/benefit analysis... a risk analysis... but it does. It has to.***

And the question I keep asking myself is: at this point, what ARE the risks? The potential gains are a point of contention, we know that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ... but what are the risks of my "Plan C" ???

*** Ahhh... there's the answer to my "listen to my heart, or the other parts of me?" question.
Obviously, my heart is not giving up. Hate when that happens...

I don't want your heart to give up, tqt.

The risks are damage to you, more frustration for you, more hurt. Because you are seeking SOMEthing from her right now. I just don't think she is ready/willing to give anything to you. When/if she is, SHE will contact YOU.

Also, WS's do this thing, where they will call up out of the blue every once in a while, and talk about absolutely NOTHING (sound familiar?). Guess what they are REALLY doing? They are giving themselves assurances that all of their options are still open, so that they can continue on with their selfish behavior.

So when she does contact you, and you choose to take the call, and she talks about nothing important (ie, the cable bill, instead of your M), she is getting the message that you are still there for her, waiting for her, supporting her, so she can continue to not be sure. Why not? She has no reason to stop sitting on the fence.

Because, fence-sitting she is, tqt. Even if she's not foggy, what kind of person leaves their spouse, continues having an affair with their lover, and doesn't even bother letting the spouse go? She is keeping you on the line for a reason. She is probably not sure what she wants, so she'll just keep both, thank-you-very-much.

Which is why it is important to be so dark. So if she calls to get her "fix" that you are still her back-up plan, you are NOT available. She won't know if you are filing for D, dating, letting her go for good. And THAT makes the WS brain start moving. Not much else does at the point where she is, to be honest.

Not to mention the damage it does to you the days after the phone call. If you can't remember that feeling, scroll up this thread a few pages to the last time you tried getting anything out of her. I believe you even told me to remind you of the upheaval, so you wouldn't be tempted to do it again!

And, after however long you want to do a totally dark Plan B, and her silence speaks louder than any words, you will probably be able to make a solid decision that you feel good about, one way or the other. OR, she will become serious about exploring HER options.

More time, Plan B, very dark.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Because, fence-sitting she is, tqt. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, true (probably)...

but I'm fence-sitting too, aren't I... and my butt's falling asleep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

On another note.. I read/heard somewhere that the human body utilizes up to 80% of its available energy processing emotions. That seems a little high to me... I would've guessed 77%...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but I'm fence-sitting too, aren't I... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not in the same way, I don't think. SHE is fence-sitting because she is being a selfish WS (DJ, but true). You are fence-sitting because you still love her, but she is hurting you, but you still love her. Your actions aren't so selfish, IMO. Because you are also looking out for the survival of the M in the long-term, and she can't see beyond the end of her nose (DJ, but true).

Keep dark with Plan B. And seriously consider answering her next call. Because I bet you $10 it's about something silly so she can make sure you are still waiting for her. By making her wonder, you make her wheels turn. You force her to start thinking about YOU, rather than just HERSELF.

We are going Scout camping overnight, so I will try and check in later this weekend. Remember, clean the gutters (yep, we got them here in Idaho, too), sweep the garage out (which means you have to move EVERYTHING out and EVERYTHING back in again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> , vacuum the house (isn't it that time of year again?), wash your sheets for heaven's sake, and have a poker party with your friends. Lots and lots of MALE friends. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> At least I'm consistent! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Spidey

Hope the camping trip was successful!
Not a spider to be found in that campsite, I bet <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Leaving shortly for the left coast, back late Wed night.

Times like these -- the "non-routine" stuff -- I realize how wounded I am... just don't feel like myself... guess the parts of me she stole haven't come close to growing back yet...

It sucks.

Hope to have internet access... don't know if I can go 'til Thurs without MB <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Talk to ya soon...

So, here I am in beautiful Palm Springs, at some posh resort-type place... thinking about my WW.

Too many triggers... the whole damn state is one giant trigger...

She would love this place. Me, I don't get all that impressed with the upper-crusty stuff... I'd be just as happy at the Super 8 Motel as long as I had the same awesome view of the desert and mountains around me.

This trip should be a reprieve from the constant dull pain, but it feels like an inconvenience. All I want to go is to get back home and figure out the rest of my life.


She has a grip on me that just won't let go. I'm constantly trying to figure out how I SHOULD be feeling now... today... these days... and hoping that given all the circumstances of my M, and what's happened over the last year... that I'm still in the realm of "normalness"... but I'm doubting myself.

and then I keep telling myself "well, 25 years is a long time. Of course you're going to feel this way. She's a part of every cell of your body and your heart and your soul."

I feel stuck in this Plan B Purgatory... I think this has been going on long enough for my brain to begin building all-new neural pathways to process the numbness, under which is all the regret and sadness and... well, all the rest of it.

Along with Plan B comes HOPE... right? Maybe that's where I hit a brick wall -- or rather, I'm permanently plastered against a brick wall -- if I have HOPE, no matter how I fool myself into having it -- how can I let go and move on and begin to somehow envision my new life without her?

So... naturally it all boils down -- again -- to me wanting to call her... to take a reading... to maybe get something/anything from her that gives me either:

-- some justification for maintaining this very small glimmer of hope -- so small, but requiring so much of my emotional energy --- OR,

-- something convincing enough that will give me the strength to abandon all hope, file for D, and begin to heal.

Thanks for listening.

tqt...hey sounds like being in sunny or perhaps rainy Palm Springs is not doing much for the spirit. From everything I have heard from you, you have a beautiful spirit and I hate to hear that you in such a place of despair.

I am starting to take all of the heartache my WH brings to me and turning it around.... He is inconsiderate...I imagine what it would be like to have someone actually care about my feelings. He is aloof...I imagine what it would be like to have a spouse who reads the same book I do and actually have a discussion about it.....He is spiteful....I imagine a spouse who says Honey I am sorry I let my anger get the best of me. This somehow makes me realize that I am better off without him and that I have missed out on so much.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> some justification for maintaining this very small glimmer of hope -- so small, but requiring so much of my emotional energy --- OR,

-- something convincing enough that will give me the strength to abandon all hope, file for D, and begin to heal.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not sure it is there friend. My IC says I am hanging on to the potential I see in my marriage. My husband gives nothing to me for me to even think there is potential, but I alas can not open my eyes to that. It seems we are afraid to face the hurt, but who isn't. I know in my heart that if my WH filed for D, I could move on.
But I can not bring myself to do it.

Do you really want her back? If she came back with all the garbage from before and the new garbage from this A, would you really be grateful?
My WH says we can't start over, the damage is too great. I am starting to believe him.

As Melissa Etheridge says "It only hurts when I breath".

Hi Homer, and thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
It's sunny and 80 degrees here -- got lucky... or more accurately, all those poor people who were devastated by the recent storms in So. Cal. were so unlucky.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> am starting to take all of the heartache my WH brings to me and turning it around.... He is inconsiderate...I imagine what it would be like to have someone actually care about my feelings. He is aloof...I imagine what it would be like to have a spouse who reads the same book I do and actually have a discussion about it.....He is spiteful....I imagine a spouse who says Honey I am sorry I let my anger get the best of me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said... and so profoundly sad. And I realize how much I miss those things... or did I ever really have them???


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This somehow makes me realize that I am better off without him and that I have missed out on so much.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">How long have you been married?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do you really want her back? If she came back with all the garbage from before and the new garbage from this A, would you really be grateful?
My WH says we can't start over, the damage is too great. I am starting to believe him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Sometimes I think I want her back for all the wrong reasons. The obvious ones... so that most of my 20's, all of my 30's, and half of my 40's aren't a big huge meanlingless scar in my life... and like you said, the potential I see... always did see... but just because I see it, doesn't mean anything, does it... and then there's that pesky little "love" thing... I've been asked how I can possibly love her after all she's done to me...

Gotta run... a couple more hours of hopefully-stimulating-enough stuff to keep my mind off of things...

Take care... and thanks again.

tqt and Homer, you two are hurting so much! *sigh* I wish I could take it all away, or at least let you peak into the future and see that this despair and pain will not be with you forever, no matter which way your M's turn out.

Listen, I know it can all seem hopeless and overwhelming. I felt the same way when my FWH was acting the way your WS's are acting now.

tqt, what I quoted below is from SYMC by awed, and I think it really speaks for the concept of detachment that I am always talking about here. Detachment does NOT mean stop loving, stop hoping. But it IS putting YOUR best foot forward, for yourself, and realizing that YOU are going to create something better in your life. If your WS chooses to make some changes and come along for the ride, even better. If not, her loss.

I was sad when I thought my H was going to miss the Spider train that was pulling out of the station of pain and despair. I was sad that we weren't going to travel that road together, and obviously I cared about/believed in our M more than he did. I think that always hurts, even more so when you feel rejected on top of it.

BUT, I couldn't let HIS choices dictate my life. The only part of your life that is dictated by your WW's choices right now is having another woman. There is a lot more to life than dating and SF. If you are having issues with financial responsibilities, split that out now with an agreement. Begin pulling the tqt train out of the station, and see if WW does anything about it. Let her know you are beginning the trasition, from sitting around waiting for her, to making some decisions and acting on them.

Homer, my H said the SAME thing about too much damage being done to the M. Which is why you don't SAVE the old M ~ you work hard to create a new, better, stronger M. A healthy M. That old M is dead, it has been killed, then run over by a truck a few more times just to be sure. I see a lot of hope in your sitch, from the simple fact that your H and my H seem to have gotten ahold of the same script somewhere ~ and mine came back to me completely. More completely than ever.

Homer, right now, you are the only hope your M has. My H thanks me all the time for holding on to that hope, when he saw none, because he now realizes that the path he WAS on (that at the time he thought was so wonderful) is not the path he wants to be on. He now realizes that his family is the most important thing in his life. His entire perspective has changed. He willingly went to MC, for 8 months, until we BOTH felt we were ready to stop.

If you don't want a D, don't file. Detach, but keep your hope safe and protected. Right now, the man you see is not your H. He is someone who is lost, even to themselves. He is not sure what he is doing, or why he's doing it. He cannot tell you that, though. Just detach, and let him have what he thinks he wants. Many times, that is the fastest way to get a WS out of the fog ~ give them what they really think they want.

Hang in there, you two. And read the quote below by awed. It is awesome.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> detachment is another concept that can be tough to understand...people often think detachment means you just don't care...not at all! detachment helps you to care in a different way...

here's some info that I found helpful, and a wonderful, simple exercise that gives you insight into yourself...

Activity/Exercise

1. Is there a problem or person in your life that you are excessively worried about?

Write about that person or problem. Write as much as you need to write to get it out of your system.

When you have written all you need to write about that person or problem, focus on yourself. What are you thinking? What emotions are you feeling?

2. How do you feel about detaching from that person or problem? What might happen if you detach? Will that probably happen anyway? How has staying "attached" -- worrying, obsessing, trying to control -- helped so far?

3. If you did not have that person or problem in your life, what would you be doing with your life that is different from what you are doing now? How would you be feeling and behaving? Spend a few minutes visualizing yourself living your life, feeling and behaving that way -- in spite of your unsolved problem.


quote:
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship. Attached, we take personally all that is said, not said, done and not done. Our ego gets wounded and we are more inclined to those actions that will undermine our very best chances of accomplishing our goals.

We can not control the actions of another. We are, however, responsible for our own actions. We are responsible for our own happiness. If we are detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love. Met with love we are in a position to diffuse the situation and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’ It is the natural acceptance that I am alone responsible for how I act. I can not control another person, but I can control how I respond to them.


quote:
"Detaching is not detaching from the person whom we care about, but from the agony of involvement."

Attachment is becoming overly-involved, sometimes hopelessly entangled. Overinvolvement of any kind may keep us in a state of chaos.
Worrying and obsessing keep us so tangled in our heads we can't solve our problems.
Whenever we become attached in these ways to someone or something, we become dtached from ourselves. We lose touch with ourselves. WE forfeit our power and ability to think feel act and take care of ourselves. We lose control.

Detachment is based on the premise that each person is responsible for himself, that we can't solve problems that aren’t ours to solve, and that worrying doesn’t help. Detachment involves present moment living-living in the here and now. We allow life to happen instead of forcing and trying to control it. We relinquish regrets over the past and fears about the future we make the most of each day.

Detaching does not mean we don’t care. It means we learn to love, care, and be involved without going crazy. We stop creating all this chaos in our minds and environments. We become free to care and to love in ways that help others and don’t hurt ourselves.

The rewards of from detachment are great: serenity; a deep sense of peace; the ability to give and receive love in self-enhancing, energizing ways; and the freedom to find real solutions to our problems.

I know you have problems. I understand that many of you are deeply grieved over, and concerned about, certain people in your lives. Many of them may be destroying themselves, you, and your family, right before your eyes. But I cant do anything to control those people; and you probably can't either. If you could, you would have done it by now.

Detach. It will become easier with practice.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Hi Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Thanks for the encouraging words...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The only part of your life that is dictated by your WW's choices right now is having another woman. There is a lot more to life than dating and SF. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">True and not necessarily true <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
More to life than dating/SF, yes. Companionship of the other-sex-variety... coming home to something other than an empty house... having someone to say "goodbye" and "hello" to... having someone to dream with, and plan with, and someone to hold....

I've been too long without all of these things and so much more. In fact, my WW is dictating all parts of my life in some way or another.

It hasn't been a couple months... it's been a lot, lot longer.

Before I even found MB, there were months...and months... of Pure Hell after D-Day in Feb '04.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Begin pulling the tqt train out of the station, and see if WW does anything about it. Let her know you are beginning the trasition, from sitting around waiting for her, to making some decisions and acting on them.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good advice, but all contact has stopped. I could wait around another month before she calls me, says something worthless, I throw in my "train's leaving the station..." bit... then wait another month 'til she calls again...

It just isn't working.

I need to make several decisions, all of which require her involvement, in some way. I may need and/or want to sell the house, and I do not want to do that until AFTER a D is final... for financial/logistical reasons.

I can't make any investments (yes, I'm still on the investment property trail... and the boat biz...) --- they become half hers... no need to complicate matters with what looks like a D looming on the horizon.

It's time to push her off the fence. And I know which way she's going to fall.

I'll do it nicely... and I want her to know up to the very end that this has been all about her... but it's time for her to let ME get started on my 2nd life.

If we had children, things would likely be different -- I'm sure I could make more sense out of playing this lousy game a bit longer.

Spidey, I know you want nothing but the best for ME -- and I appreciate that more than I can put into words. It's just becoming so obvious that what is best for me is to stop living in some distorted sense of denial, accept the fact that my M has failed, and listen to my head when it tells me there's someone out there... that I won't be alone forever. That when I "find" this person, I'll then know what it is I've been missing all these years.

Do I sound self-righteous, or controlling, or manipulative, or ?? I hope not...

All I'm going to do next is break Plan B, under the premise that I'm in the process of making some "moves" that will require her involvement.

And depending on what kind of reaction I get...

Hey, c'mon now, we don't want the editors to chop off a couple hundred pages of our book 'cuz it's getting too monotonous, do we? We need a little action in the story <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />