Caren... thanks for the kind words...

So, uh... yer STILL trying for that free ride to Idaho, eh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Just kidding -- as soon as Spidey stops putting household maintenance tasks on my to-do list, the free ride is yours <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

And please don't worry about threadjacking... you are welcome ANYtime... no need to call first.
Just don't expect a cut of the book royalties, alright!?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which, of course (in my thinking here, not necessarily your thinking), puts the "decision" back in her hands. Is she gonna grow up and do something for herself and your M ~ is she going to be a miracle? Or is she going to continue to be pathetic, have no inclination whatsoever to help either straighten herself out, OR assist you in moving forward in your life by letting you go.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, I've read that paragraph about 12 times now... it's pretty darn perfect. Borderline genius. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

And, as of this moment, I think it fits nicely into my Plan F -- in fact, I think it IS Plan F.

I tried calling WW last evening, for two reasons:

1) to very nicely, respectfully, and caringly encourage her to stand up for herself and what she wants, and knows is right -- and tell OB that she's not comfortable with him going to Fla.

2) to very nicely, respectfully, and caringly encourage her to seek IC, to help her sort some things out.

Before calling, it didn't really matter to me what kind of response I got. I just wanted to try.

Well, she didn't answer her "home" phone, and her cell phone was forwarded to voicemail. Which means when OB was done with his son for the weekend, WW went to his place, or he went to hers. So... in disgust... I kicked myself in the @ss for caring about her... why am I putting myself through this crap...


That leads me to...

I'm going to try again this evening. Going back into Plan B mode hasn't worked yet, at least in my timeframe, so I have no reason to believe anything's going to change now.

So.... pursuant to an aggressive Plan F, I'm going to:

Tell her that I never wanted a D, that this has been all about her, that I'm willing to try to work things out and will put every bit of my heart and soul into trying... but that she needs to end her A, get IC, agree to a plan for reconciliation, blah blah blah...
And that together we can figure a way out of the mess, and figure a way forward...

And -- if she's not willing to do that, if she has no interest in it -- then she needs to file for D -- BEFORE leaving for Fla on 3/16.

Will it "work?" Nah... And I'm not even sure I want it to. But, as we've discussed here.. the only way it COULD work is if SHE finds the strength and resolve and fortitude -- within herself -- to make the necessary decisions and put them into action. I'm giving her one more chance to do that. And I'm ready to play my last card.

If nothing happens by 3/16, then I will either file myself, or go to Plan T: the Chinese Water Torture method where she'll get so sick of hearing from me (or hey! maybe even seeing me at her front door....hmmm.....) that she'll file as fast as she can.


Here's some key STUFF from our last conversation... worth repeating...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
WW: yeah... it's the failure thing

Me: failure?

WW: yeah.

Me: well, we tried everything...right?

silence

WW: no we didn't try everything

silence

Me: well, nobody else has to know that... just you and me... right?

silence

WW: yeah

silence

Me: let me ask you a question... you... you're not volunteering much...
So, let me ask you a question... sometimes in situations like this... sometimes people get in situations like this and can't find a way out... and would like to get out, if they knew how

WW: uh huh

Me: do you feel that way at all... ever?

WW: yeah, certainly I do
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know how I could make it any easier for her.

Whaddyathink?
Be nice, I'm a frail old man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Be nice, I'm a frail old man </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh PALEEEZZZ! I do NOT think so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> But nice try.

If I am understanding your intention correctly, I want to make the suggestion of a letter. Mostly, so you can edit, delete, reword, and get in ALL the stuff you want to say to her. And you can still keep your "deadlines." You can even do a follow-up phone call to the letter.

I would say something to the effect of:

"Dear WW, as you know, I do love you. In fact, I love you to the extent that if you are happier without me, I want you to be without me. If you are happier without OM, I want you to be without him, as well. I just want you to be happy. The reason I have held onto the hope of our M for this long, is because I truly believed you would be happiest with me.

But that does not seem to be the case. Because I still love you, and still want to be M'd to you, I am asking you to please set me free if it is your will to no longer be my W. I am finding it hard to bring myself to do something that I don't truly want. But what is my alternative? To hang on and keep hoping, wondering why/when/if you will D me?

I want to say that even if you D me, I will wait for 6 months to both heal myself, and so I am sure that you have made a decision you are happy with. What I can tell you for sure, is that living in limbo right now feels like I am being robbed of my present, my future. I have a hard time convincing myself now that our PAST wasn't a lie, or something I made up in my head. I guess it is never easy to admit that you love and care about someone a LOT more than they apparently loved and cared about you. That is tough on the ego.

I do not have plans to go out and find someone. I don't have an uncontrollable urge to date another woman. But, I am lonely. I long for companionship, friendship, caring, reciprocation of my loving feelings. My first choice is that it be with you, but, it is not a decision I get to make right now.

I know you were surprised when I told you that M's can recover from infidelity. I think because a lot of people don't talk about infidelity, for many of the reasons you are feeling right now, most don't realize that 60-80% of marriages in the U.S. are affected by infidelity. And just under 50% of those M's end in D. I have actually read about, and talked with, several people who not only saved their M's, they used everything they learned in the experience to create better M's than they ever imagined possible.

I don't claim to know exactly how that happens, as I've never done it, but I know it can be done. I know we are a great team when we work together, and I feel that if we both committed to the process of righting all the wrong stuff, that we too could rebuild our M. Please know that if you change your mind, and decide that a better, rebuilt M with me is what you truly want, I am open to that. We will find a great MC, I have learned so much about relationships and communication; I truly believe all this is possible.

What I am saying is: I love you, I want you to be happy. If that is without me, then so be it. Please take the steps necessary to let me go, so you can move forward in your new life. I will hold onto my hope, until some fat lady starts singing somewhere, but I need to begin moving forward in my life as well, to some extent. I am open to reconcilliation if that is what you want, I am also open to signing the D papers that you have filed. I want you to be happy ~ I truly do. And letting you go, and make decisions that make YOU happy, is the only way left that I have to show you how I care for you.

Take care, your friend, tqt

I think this is your opportunity to let her know where your feelings are TRULY coming from. Are you trying to manipulate her? NO. Are you trying to control her? NO. You are communicating to her where you are currently at, what things are governing your decisions, and what you NEED.

Then, if you don't hear from her in a day or so after you know she has received it, you can call her up and say, "Did you get me letter/email?"

And you can have a copy right in front of you, and you can specifically ask her about certain aspects that you really want an answer to, and she should have a really good idea of where you stand on that issue.

Take care. Keep up the workouts, OK? I swear, cardio saved my sanity.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Keep up the workouts, OK? I swear, cardio saved my sanity.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, are you kidding? I do know the save-the-sanity part... I've worked out religiously for about 12 years now, and you're right -- it really can make a huge difference going thru this, um... experience. I've often thought that the only thing saving my sanity was working out.

And, lo and behold, what I've figured out since 10/04 is that, at the gym, Infidelity = Longer_Workouts.

Let me explain.

JUST this evening I was finishing up... talking with a buddy of mine (2nd place in state Strongman competition, BTW!) and well, let's put it this way -- there are times when it becomes suddenly "necessary" to stick around and do a few more sets... I was thinking 2-3 more; my friend suggested four, at least...

Until, all of a sudden, I was blinded by her glistening, glimmering, gleaming wedding ring, and then the extra sets didn't seem all that critical. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I want to make the suggestion of a letter.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, that was a great letter. Thank you.
Reading it made it so obvious that you understand SO much about how I feel, and the dynamics of the "communication" between my WW and I right now...

I want to be perfectly honest, though...

and I know you were just giving me an idea of what you think would be the right message to send... otherwise maybe I could just send exactly what you wrote, of course with the addition of

Copyright (c) 2005, Spider Slayer Support Services, UNlimited.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

My second impression... already told you my first... it's too strong. AND, just feeling that it was too strong raised a couple flags for me. And scared me. IOW, just how far have I detached... and just how much closer to the point-of-no-return AM I now?

And I just don't know for sure.

Thinking back over the last two or three months... in retrospect it feels like it's been -- uh-oh, a goofy analogy coming -- like climbing a very steep mountain. Exerting so much energy, and taking what seems like so much time... not to mention the pain and hurt... to get to the next step -- the next plateau in this moving on/letting go/seeing-her-for-who-she-really-is process.

And right now --- and your letter really made it obvious to me --- I feel like I'm on one of those plateaus, maybe higher than I realized I was(?).... but I'm not really sure. I guess I need to stop and breathe, and figure out where I am...?

This ALL still SUCKS, of course... don't get me wrong.

And I still want to be in Plan F. (so exactly WHEN do I get expelled from MB for that? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> )

One of my thoughts was -- I don't have the energy left to compose a letter. And IF she were to come back, it HAS to be --- YES, like you've been telling me over and over -- HER choice, HER decision, HER move.

So maybe I'm done with the Lovey-Dovey (LD) stuff. I don't feel the LD thing right now. And I don't know what that means... exactly. Maybe I'm just exhausted.

No... I know I'm exhausted.

You said that perhaps all I need is another few weeks in Plan B. That sounds reasonable, at this very moment. But so does Plan F...

That's what I don't like about Plan B. It's like breaking a horse or something. It's like being restrained -- put in a straightjacket and tied to a post --- and let go only when you stop wriggling to get loose... when you stop writhing in pain... when your love has dwindled to the point of no return.

Maybe I should go back to the gym.... this time with sunglasses on...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's like being restrained -- put in a straightjacket and tied to a post --- and let go only when you stop wriggling to get loose... when you stop writhing in pain... when your love has dwindled to the point of no return. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is so interesting that you put it that way. I really equate my personal recovery with that analogy, as well, and have stated it on these boards, somewhere. Once I stopped struggling, fighting the process, and could just be still ~ everything turned around. It's like as soon as I stopped struggling, I was released. My very own resistance/fight/fear kept me binded.

Honestly, I am AMAZED at how much you have changed recently. Not bad, I think they are good changes. They are signs and symptoms of changes ~ personal recovery. This has been a long, hard road for you.

I think it is very telling the way you reacted to that letter. VERY telling about where you are at right now. I am so impressed you thought about your feelings and impressions so much, and came up with the insight you did.

It is OK that you aren't at a "decision" right now. You are on the path, and soon, I really believe it will all become clear to you. I know sometimes I get to a place, where I feel like I am very close to a revelation, but I cannot see it. The harder I look for it, the murkier it all appears. I believe that is the moment before a corner is turned. You are doing some of your most spiritual work right now, tqt. It is exhausting. Soon, you will reap the benefits of all this learning, and you will remember the pain and the hurt, but you will also realize that it is the only way to effect such growth.

At least, that is how I look at my own transformation. I still remember the horror of it all. And I am SO GRATEFUL I am not there anymore. BUT, I am also so glad that I am not in that old me anymore.

My hope is that some day, you create such a life for yourself, that you can also see this whole thing as a "necessary" part of your life ~ a death of the old, and a rebirth of the new.

Hang in there, and keep posting. I think you are doing AWESOME.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My hope is that some day, you create such a life for yourself, that you can also see this whole thing as a "necessary" part of your life ~ a death of the old, and a rebirth of the new.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yikes! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Was the "old" me THAT bad??


Dammit... admittedly... I'm still on the coaster...
Just in the last few hours, in an attempt to figure out what to do next, I've spent TOO much time thinking about her -- and it's still happens: when I spend too much time thinking about her, I inevitably allow myself to want her back with TOO few reservations. I cancel out the bad stuff, allow the hope and desire to rise to the top, and here I am... again...


I'm considering two options for today's episode.

As I've said ad nauseum... this Florida trip is huge for me. So, the first option is a very quick phone call later to talk ONLY about Fla -- encouraging her to do what she feels is best for her, per previous post(s). My objective, of course, is a last-ditch effort to keep the OB from going. A chance in a million it'll work, but I have to give it a shot. No LB's, DJ's... just supporting her, and encouraging her to do what she already told me she wanted (assuming it was the truth!) -- to have OB NOT go with her. Then, end the conversation quickly.


Second option is an email (perhaps a letter, but I'm feeling REALLY lazy...), the contents of which just might look familiar <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> -- like I said, I'm emotionally exhausted, and don't have the energy, nor the desire right now, to write anything... so... as pathetic as it might seem... thanks for helping me out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

It's essentially a condensed version of what you wrote earlier. It doesn't "sound" exactly like me, but... I can safely (and unfortunately) assume she won't notice.

Dear WW,

As you know, I do love you. In fact, I love you to the extent that if you are happier without me, I want you to be without me.
The reason I have held onto the hope of our marriage for this long, is because I truly believed you would be happiest with me.

But that does not seem to be the case. I am asking you to please set me free if it is your will to no longer be my wife. I am finding it hard to bring myself to do something that I don't truly want. But what is my alternative? To hang on and keep hoping, wondering why/when/if you will divorce me?

Living in limbo right now feels like I am being robbed of my present, and my future. I have a hard time convincing myself now that our PAST wasn't a lie, or something I made up in my head. I guess it is never easy to admit that you love and care about someone a LOT more than they apparently loved and cared about you. That is tough on the ego.

I know you were surprised when I told you that marriages can recover from all this. I have actually read about, and talked with, several people who not only saved their marriages, but they used everything they learned in the experience to create better marriages than they ever imagined possible. I know we are a great team when we work together, and I feel that if we both committed to the process of righting all the wrong stuff, that we too could rebuild our marriage.

What I am saying is: I love you, and I want you to be happy. If that is without me, then please take the steps necessary to let me go, so you can move forward in your new life, and I can move forward in mine.

Love,

tqt


Sowhaddyathink?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Was the "old" me THAT bad?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">First off, clarification. I meant, "death" of the old "life," in general. Not you personally. And no, none of your past life, nor your current/past/future person is bad at all. You are great. I just basically meant that growth is painful, and you ARE growing. In the future, no matter what happens with your M, I believe you will (on some level, on some days) be grateful that this happened. I believe you will take what you know NOW, and create something spectacular for yourself ~ whether WW is part of that equation is yet to be seen, and entirely up to her.

Two more things. I do not think you should try to convince her of not taking OB, disguising it as supporting her. After all, if she takes OB and isn't thrilled about it, it could very well work to HIS disadvantage. Especially if you send her that email before she goes.

Which is my second thing, I love what you did with my long-winded rambling. Especially the last sentence. I think it sums up your position, your intention, your feelings, and what you need from her right now.

I'm sorry if me writing that letter caused you to think too much about her today. My intention is not to harm, so if I did, in a roundabout way . . . again, sorry.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry if me writing that letter caused you to think too much about her today. My intention is not to harm, so if I did, in a roundabout way . . . again, sorry.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arrrrgh!! No, no, no! Enough said. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">After all, if she takes OB and isn't thrilled about it, it could very well work to HIS disadvantage. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've thought about that quite a bit.

On the flipside, a lot of "damage" could be done by this trip. This will be OB's first (to my knowledge) foray into WW's family (he wanted to show his face at Christmas; WW said no....). It'll increase the entanglement factor a lot. The bottom line is, it's a significant milestone, and it's going to kill me. Well, maim me, anyway. And if WW says she doesn't even want it to happen, I just have to try... but I'll kick it around some more.

Thanks again for the letter, Spidey. And I didn't think it was long-winded rambling! I just cut out some of the "stronger" stuff.

I'll send it tomorrow morning... email, I guess.
Then she can compare it to December's(?) "Plan A" emailed letter. Perhaps she'll notice a pattern........

It feels like we're rounding 3rd base and heading for home plate... whatever it is...

Can we rest then?

tqt-

IDAHO!!!!!IDAHO!!!!! Well I not DA HO, but you get the picture <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Spidey-

A little O/T - T/J here:
I hope that I didn't say anything to offend you on my thread, they got quite wrapped up in the SF convo.......I had to step away from it for a while too.

Yes, tqt, when home is rounded, there is rest. You will have rest soon, I can feel it. I think you are doing great.

Caren, you did not offend me. I stopped posting over there for two reasons. First, I really haven't kept up on your sitch, just reading this post here, that post there, so I am not the most qualified to advise you.

Second, I spent the better part of 6 months advising someone (NOT you, tqt), only to have her continuously do the same things over and over again that don't work. In my coaching class, I have asked Penny how she deals with this. The down and dirty, is that if someone is not ready to put into place proven, working strategies, there isn't much we as advisers can do for them.

It's not like I'm saying someone has to be on my timetable or else. Not at all. But a lot of time and energy was invested by me, into this person I referred to above. And I feel that for the most part, it was ignored. Not totally, because she feels horrible when she keeps doing these same things that don't work over and over. BUT, she still does them. She is not willing to go to that part of herself yet.

And that is OK. We all get where we are going at different paces. You have lots of other great posters on your thread, some of whom these same things apparently worked for them. It is hard to agree with something/someone, when you believe they will be seriously hurt.

So, where you are is where you are. If you are ever ready to ask me a specific question, just call me out. Ah, to answer your previous question, regarding separation and Plan B.

OK, the A was with my Former Best Friend (FBF), so I pretty much knew ~ I just couldn't prove it, and they both denied SO WELL. And, let's face it, BS's really don't want to believe they are BS's, right? Anyway, H finally confessed the PA to me (I knew of the EA, even though I didn't know that is what it was called, since about October 04) on New Years Eve morning 04, in the ER, while he was having a mental breakdown. His mom was there, he had confessed to her the night before ~ she of course told him to do what made him happy (I'm still working through THAT issue).

When he confessed, he also informed me that he was in love with OW/FBF, didn't love me, blah blah blah. I hadn't told ANYone in my life, because if I was wrong, you know, we all had the same friends and stuff. Very small community, H was FBF/OW's DS's Scout leader, etc. I called my aunt. Long story short, H moved to his parent's house for 2 weeks, then we got him an apartment.

In mid-February, H agreed to go to MC to "make the D go more smoothly." He was convinced D was the only way. We went to 3 sessions with this MC, and H walked out on the third because of the Socut issue I talked about on your thread.

It all turned around for me when I let him go. I said, fine, if you truly don't want to be with me, then don't. Not maliciously, just matter-of-fact. It made me sad, but I truly did love him, and I wanted him to be happy. If that was without me, then so be it.

Now, in the meantime, I did not go to Plan B. Because star*fish, and a couple others here that I respected, told me as long as we were in MC, to give that a chance. FBF/OW basically dumped H the day he told me. I don't know what her motivation for the A was, why she did it. She told H she loved him, but after he told me, she didn't ~ said she never did. Got herself another Boy Friend. BUT, at the time, I didn't believe him when he told me that ~ I didn't believe ANYthing either of them said. And she'd still string him along, saying stuff like maybe when we D'd they could be together, etc. Enough to keep the fog going. Along with him seeing her regularly at the Scout meetings.

The day he walked out on the MC, I came home and did my Plan B letter. Then H called. I didn't answer, figured he was just going to tell me he'd filed or something. The voicemail said that he WAS going to file for D, but his IC thought it would be a good idea for us both to meet at H's next IC appointment. I was wary, it didn't make sense to me. I called the IC. He said that he thought me being there would allow him to help H on a deeper level. For that reason alone, I agreed. Because just like tqt's WW, my H was lost to himself.

That next session, his IC became our MC. So, I was never officially in Plan B. HOWEVER, I had much less contact with my H then than many MBers in Plan B do! My H had requested little contact at our first MC session in mid-February. It was hard, I was very addicted to him, but I thought, "He specifically asked me to do this. If I can't follow-through and respect his wishes, why would he want to come home?"

We communicated ONLY about kids (drop offs, pick ups, day switches) and finances. There were no feeling talks, no ILY's, nothing. Literally: "Can you please pick the boys up at 5:30 instead of 6 today? I have an appointment. Let me know." And he would respond: "Sure, that will be fine."

So, although I wasn't in Plan B officially, I know first-hand how hard breaking the addiction to the WS is. And I also now know that the addiction is caused for two reasons, neither are "good:" First, the fact that you have been discarded, chosen over, for some reason makes you want that person even more. It is human nature, a natural reaction to being cut off, shunned. Second, one of the reasons the M gets into trouble in the first place and vulnerable to an A, is because the M space that 2 people occupy has become distorted. Breaking your addiction to your WH needs to be done, even for you to recover and rebuild. Your M will not be healthy as long as you believe that your happiness, your life, your soul, your "other half" is in some way dependant on your H. On anyone besides you and God, for that matter.

What I clung to Caren, was that God says you are to love NOBODY above Him. You are to be in love with HIM, first and foremost. Everyone, to include S and kids, come after. Your God has not left you, has not deserted you. He still loves you. You have no reason to not feel loved, whole, complete. Having your H's love and devotion is icing on the cake, it is not necessary for LIFE.

Take care, Caren. You will get through this.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But a lot of time and energy was invested by me, into this person I referred to above. And I feel that for the most part, it was ignored. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Spidey, I know you said you weren't talking about me, but... let's face it... I've been a challenge.

I was thinking about emailing you to say this, but the right place to say it is right here...

Thank you for hanging in there with me.

My marriage, most likely, will not be "saved"... had I come here sooner than I did (I found MB WAY too late), the chances of saving my M would've been exponentially better.

But... when all is said and done, what you've done for me, Spidey... it's worked.

Ummm...... Thanks.

ps. I'm smiling as I write this... I happened upon a little spider just a few minutes ago. And as I was getting rid of the little guy, I thought...
am I ever... EVER... for the rest of my life... going to see a spider again without thinking... Hey! I wonder how....

I know you feel you've been a challenge. I don't feel that way. The things you do, you do from a place of truly trying to come to some sort of conclusion.

The things I have a hard time dealing with, are when people emotionally react, from one drama to the next, and not only prolong/draw-out/deepen the pain, but when kids are involved. People who are in the midst of these things, MYSELF INCLUDED (which is why I KNOW), just don't realize the damage done to the little ones.

For all the anger, damage, destruction, fighting, game playing, etc. that they see ~ rarely do they see how (if it even happens) the M recovers, or the parents recover. They hear the loud, the destructive, they don't hear the quiet, the apologies, the making up.

So, what is their overall impression? That they have been in a war zone. For them, all they have known is coming down around their ears, and the two people who are supposed to "protect" them, make them feel secure (in a world where, face it, they don't have a whole lot of power on their own) are the very people who are freaking them out.

Months after my H came home, my friend was in his room looking at some of the collages he has of us doing fun family things. On the poster with Disneyland pictures on it, my youngest son had put tacks through H's head on all the pictures. So there is youngest son, sitting next to tack-head on the rollercoaster, etc.

Much anger about his father leaving was in him for a VERY long time. Our oldest son, still refers to my H's leaving as him "ditching" us. He doesn't say it maliciously, or emotionally, he just states it as fact. That is the way he remembers it.

It took ALL my self control to pull MYSELF together and protect our kids ~ from US. My ego wanted to tell them stuff, get them to see how horrible their Dad was being, how hurt I was. But that is not their place, not their "job." I had to go against all my natural instincts, for the good of my kids. And they were STILL involved to some extent.

I don't ask anyone here to do anything that I myself haven't done. I am not spectacular, I am not superhuman. I am just a girl from Idaho, that made a choice to GROW UP. If I didn't have kids, I don't know if I would have, to be completely honest. But for my kids' sake, I needed to be the constant in their lives, I needed to be the protector.

So, what really bothers me, is not you. I think you are great. I have seen so much spiritual growth in you, so much personal recovery. I am amazed at what you have done. And I am honored that you choose to post to me almost every day! Most people get sick of me after a while. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

So, what are your plans? Email, Plan F, phone call? What's going on over there in Pennsylvania???

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So, what are your plans? Email, Plan F, phone call?

What's going on over there in Pennsylvania???</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Didn't I tell you? This is Procrastination Day in Pennsylvania.
The old Pennsylvania Dutch people used to call it "Hem & Haw Day" but that sounded stupid.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

IOW...as we speak, I'm uhhh... floundering... feeling a bit queasy about throwing my "last card" out on the table.

I have an email ready to go... just gotta find that "Send" button...

Maybe I'll make that one last phone call today, and send the email tomorrow...

or maybe I'll run down to the store and buy an extra large container of Intestinal Fortitude... I seem to be running low...

This really sucks.

tqt, I totally understand. You are facing some scary stuff. If I were you, I would send the email first, then if you don't get a reply soon, use that as your reason to call her. Calling first, followed up by the email? I dunno. Maybe it doesn't make a lick of difference either way.

Do what your heart tells you. WHEN you heart tells you.

Speaking of which, if I would have known that it was Procrastination Day somewhere in the world today (let alone just 2 time zones away!), I wouldn't have worked so hard today! Sheesh.

Kind of off topic here, I just wanted to share with you that my personal growth I acheived during mine and H's recovery, is slowly spreading into all the other areas of my life. I don't know how much of my history I have shared with you, but a brief recap is: My mom has been married 5 times, D'd my father while she was still pregnant with me and refused him access to me (mostly by moving home to Idaho while he was stationed in North Carolina) ~ I met him when I was 14, and it was very awkward for me, as that is an awkward age, so we are not very close.

After my mom D'd her 4th H, the one that legally adopted me, she got very ill with MS. Her 5th H OD'd her on psychotropic drugs (the kind they give to schitzophrenics [sp?]), and she has 100% dementia now. She has lived in a nursing home for the past 12 years or so.

ANYway, after the D from the 4th H, and the MS, I fell into a deep depression. Manic depression. I slept all the time, alienated my friends, etc. Of course, didn't know I was depressed. Finally, the 5th H got me some help, and I climbed out of that dark hole.

Then I got pregnant, and M'd, my H. We moved from home and support, Idaho, to Kentucky. He was in the Army, Ft. Campbell. We had one car, and he took it each day. We had NO money. I just ate all day long. We lived in a rural area, and people just let their big dogs wander around, and I was terrified of them, so I didn't leave the house much.

H was deployed all the time, I was so bored. By the time I had our first son, I had just broken 300 pounds. I am 5'5". 5 months later I got pregnant with our youngest son (yes, I know, my aunt already asked me if I knew what caused babies <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> ), and by the time I had him, I was 10 pounds heavier than I was with the first!

About 8 years ago I began working out a lot. I slowly crept from the 280's, to the 250's, to the 220's, to the 200's. And I seemed stuck there. I read all the books, I know enough about food and cooking to be a nutritionist. I probably know enough about most exercise to be a trainer, or instructor! But I just couldn't seem to break through.

In early '03, I read Bob Greene's book "Get with the Program," and filled out a lot of information about emotional eating. Well, he just came out with a new book, and before I bought it, I re-read the old book. I couldn't BELIEVE how different my answers are now! Not only was my M so much less than it is now, so was I! I knew that in relationship to our M, because we went to 8 months of counseling, and I learned a LOT of stuff here at MB.

I am starting to realize that all this stuff permeates every area of my life. Isn't taht wierd, that I didn't even see that until about, say, a week ago?

All the "issues" I thought I had with food and/or exercise, are not the issues I have now. I can see WHY I thought the way I did back then, but I also realize it was just a form of self denial ~ just not being willing/able to face the truth.

The other day, I ran, nonstop, for 3 miles. I don't remember doing that, besides when I was a kid. I have realized two key things. First, just like with my M recovery, I am on a journey, not a destination. I used to get to a certain point in my fitness, and just stop there, and do that same thing over and over ~ each week. That only works for maintaining, not losing. Second, goals are set, they stay, they are the same ~ feelings change, shift, are fleeting, and change all the time. So, no matter how I am feeling, I just keep my eye on my goal, and keep moving toward the goal, no matter what my feelings are telling me.

Several times during recovery, I wanted to just give up, run away, hide. It was the hardest thing I have ever done, besides surviving that first month after D-day. But, I had a goal, to recover and rebuild my M, keep my family together, so when those feelings to run came up, I just kept plugging away towards my goal.

That is what I am going to do with this fitness thing. I am now just 40 pounds from my goal weight.

I don't know why I wanted to share all that with you. Perhaps because I have come to think of you as my friend, and I think we all like sharing breakthroughs with our friends. And also to give you an example of how all this pain and work NOW, can really pay off in the future, in some way that you couldn't have ever predicted.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ March 09, 2005, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: Spider Slayer ]</small>

Spidey, that's an awesome story! "Inspiration" fits the bill <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

About your mom's marital history --- because of my WW's parents' history (lots of marriages/spouses), I've often thought about "what that would do" to the children of those parents... would they be predisposed to A's... or less commitment to marriage in general... but between you and my WW, there's obviously nothing there to wonder about -- no pattern, no rules, no commonality -- your commitment to marriage is obvious, and my WW's lack thereof, well...

just rambling... sorry.

You've been through a LOT. My impression... you were a VERY strong person before the A mess happened... it was just buried inside you...

I think so. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am starting to realize that all this stuff permeates every area of my life. Isn't that weird, that I didn't even see that until about, say, a week ago? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">yep... it is weird... smart ladies like you are supposed to have it ALL figured out. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Was it the Bob Greene book that made you realize that, or... what? The "way you are" makes it easy to forget that YOU are still recovering!

Sometimes I think you're too hard on yourself...

Sometimes I think, in the process of helping others, you put yourself on the back burner, and... well... just don't forget that you come first. You know what I mean, I know you do...

And, like you said... I too, have a feeling... no, I KNOW... that so many things I've learned here... I will be "putting into use" in so many different ways... and for the rest of my life. Cool stuff!

And about the fitness thing... Spidey, you should be SOOOO proud of yourself. I really mean that. I know as well as anyone how getting from "point A to point B" takes so much strength and resolve and... hard, hard work. Ya know... there aren't that many people who can do what you've done. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I speak from a decent amount of knowledge, and a lot of interest in the subject. I'm still entertaining the thought of studying my @ss off and getting certified (as a trainer)... not as a career move or anything (especially at my ripe old age), but just... for the helluvit. Haven't made the commitment yet.

On a sour note, a couple years ago now... actually more than a couple years... and it helps me piece together what happened with my WW... when she started "creating her new body"... looking back it lends credence to my MLC theory... she started working out, and she started asking me for help... she started calling me "my personal trainer"... little did I know I was helping her create her new body for what would be another man... God, did that hurt when I realized the facts of everything...

Another thought about the fitness/weight stuff... just remember that everyone reaches plateaus -- and they are the hardest times... the hardest part to overcome and move on to the next goal. The body is saying "hey! this is where I wanna be, so relax, would ya?!?" And it's ok to stay at one point for a while... overtraining can be an issue, and is hard to recognize.
So don't overdo it, alright? You're needed here, too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do what your heart tells you. WHEN you heart tells you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Excellent advice. (gee, what a surprise <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> )

Well, I called WW when I got home a few minutes ago.

I need a couple more minutes to process the whole thing... it wasn't that long of a conversation, but... being the hopeless idiot that I am...

When I got home this evening, there was a message on the ans machine from my parents...

"your Dad has a perspective on this that you should hear.... call us when you get home..."

So I quickly threw caution to the wind, and called my WW before listening to my parents try to talk me out of it.

Once again, WW seemed (who knows for sure) sorta happy to hear from me.

I was cheerful and upbeat and yada yada yada.... throughout the conversation. It was 3-4 minutes, tops.

A little bit of doggie smalltalk...

Then I asked her to send her W2 so I could take care of the taxes, or, if she preferred, I could send all the tax crappola to her and she could take care of it...

A little bit of tax smalltalk...

Then I said "there's something that's been bugging me since we talked a few days ago..."

"...about the Fla thing... just want to encourage you to do what's best for you... it's ok to stand up for yourself and do what you feel is right, and best for you..."

She said "yeah.. I've been thinking about that."

The way she said it... my interpretation was: "she doesn't really give a damn about this OB, but she can't figure out how to get rid of him."

Then I very nicely... very neatly... ended the conversation.

Hearing her voice... her tone of voice... what she said... well, my very healthy and very creative imagination... and my stupid, hopeless heart... told me all sorts of things... but... my very healthy Common Sense Gland tells me this is getting ridiculous... I want her back, or... I want what I-want-her-to-be back, and nothing that comes out of her mouth helps me to figure out what she's really thinking/feeling.

I spend all my time trying to fall out of love with my wife...

and it takes 120 seconds to fall back in love with her.

This sucks.

---------------

The next woman who falls out of the sky and ends up in my lap, well... ain't SHE in for a surprise... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Wow. First off, thanks for the back-patting. I really appreciate it. As I read your encouraging words, I am sitting here with a big goofy smile on my face ~ like a kid getting positive feedback from a parent, or teacher, or friend. You made my day.

Sometimes, I am too hard on myself. I have begun to realize that, as well. The other day I was at the grocery store. I didn't have a "paying" job that day, and I was feeling less than productive for that. So, I did my "non-payment" jobs, of cleaning and laundry and menu planning and grocery shopping. ANYway, there I was in line, feeling less than what I should have felt about myself, simply because I wasn't making money that day.

And there was a very heavy woman in front of me, who didn't look very good. She had on old sweats that looked like they were her day AND night clothes, her hair was not cut well, and didn't look like she'd combed (her day AND night HAIR). And her cart was full of hamburger, hamburger helper, candy, chips, crackers ~ just junk.

I looked into my cart, and it was full of fresh veggies, fruit, cereal for the boys, oatmeal, some chicken. And I honestly thought to myself: That woman could have been me ~ or, I could have been that woman! I used to buy hamburger helper, and chips, and all that other crap. And I used to eat it! And I didn't work out at ALL.

And I am beginning to realize that making money is NOT the only way for me to feel good about myself. For some reason, I saw that as my only contribution to this family. My H always tells me that I do so much more, and my work is more important ~ raising a family, running a household, he says is very challenging and important work. And I agree with him. But part of me still felt lacking. I am beginning to realize that that FEELING is there for another reason. Not sure what it is yet, but it surely doesn't fit with my reality.

Also, I want you to know that I DO take care of myself. Most of the "issues" I have here, I talk to my H about directly. He doesn't read MB, and I respect that. So, if I want him to know something, I have to tell him. The only things I post about here, for myself, usually have to do with FBF/OW. I think that wound will heal slower, for the simple fact that she never apologized directly to me and/or showed any grief over what her actions caused, and I refuse to talk to her whatsoever, so I must heal by myself on this issue, one-sided.

I think it is easier to move on if you can have some kind of finished business, and exchange of apologies and forgiveness. But it is getting easier with time. At first, it was all just this big ball of negative emotions, and I couldn't tell what was going on really. Now, it is unraveling, and I am able to recognize certain feelings and deal with them.

I don't like to bring my H into that process so much. He has no answers for me, and bringing it up causes him pain. Penny says that once the A has been dealt with, the details made known, that the A should be left in the past, not brought up all the time. Trust me, we have BOTH (mostly me) brought it up enough ~ for 2 lifetimes! I'm not burying anything about it, not at all. But my H is not an effective resourse for me in that area.

Enough about me. Are you going to send her the letter/email? Do you plan on calling her again? How did the conversation end, meaning did you or her commit to communication again?

I also want to challenge the way you refer to "falling back in love with her." How would that be possible? The person she is TODAY, is not someone who can accept your love, who can have your respect. Which could mean, that you are 1)regressing into the past when you talk to her, and you are attaching the past W you once had, the past M, which is different than falling in love, or 2)still haven't broken your "addiction" to her, and are simply getting a "feel-good" fix when you talk to her.

Just challenging questions. I ask myself these kinds of questions all the time now. Because only now, after all this, am I able to really see what my TRUTH is, not just want I WANT it to be.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I also want to challenge the way you refer to "falling back in love with her." How would that be possible? The person she is TODAY, is not someone who can accept your love, who can have your respect. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Spidey... I only have a couple minutes right now, but wanted to reply to this.

My choice of words was lousy. I know the woman I married is gone forever... she just doesn't exist anymore. The brain -- my brain -- is capable of playing some nasty little games with itself.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1)regressing into the past when you talk to her, and you are attaching the past W you once had, the past M

2)still haven't broken your "addiction" to her, and are simply getting a "feel-good" fix when you talk to her.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ummm... can I pick both? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I'm pretty sure, though... as we head towards home plate... that the overwhelming emotions at this point are regret, and sadness. Normal stuff at the end of a losing game.

Email goes out tomorrow morning. No more phone calls.

I actually feel more confident now than I have in five months that I could coax her back. But I don't want a wife, or a marriage, reconciled under those conditions.

So, this is where she has to step up to the plate... of her own volition.

(edited to say: if we had children, I would be coaxing...)

All this probably sounds like an ultimatum or a game I'm playing -- it's absolutely not either of those things... for the record. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ March 10, 2005, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

Yeah, I pick lousy words sometimes, too. I understand now what you meant. And I don't think it is game playing or anything like that. You are asking her to make a decision and act on it. You are letting her go, if that is what she wants. I think you are doing FABulous, darling, FABulous! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are letting her go, if that is what she wants. I think you are doing FABulous, darling, FABulous! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I started reading [H]'s post. Got thru the first couple million words.
And I started to get confused (not confused about what I was reading, but confused about ME). And then realizing I was getting confused... that in itself started messing me up.

So maybe I'm not doing fabulous.

[H]'s story is one of success. Of perseverance... patience... ultimately figuring out what's important.

It makes me feel.... guilty. Like I'm making a mistake. I'm the worst quitter on the planet. I despise quitting.

But then again, I've been in Hell for 13 months... does that qualify as patience, and perseverance?

And then I feel pathetic -- because I'm supposed to be a "man" --- I'm supposed to know what I want, and go after it.

I do know what I want. But I don't know if what I want is something I SHOULD want anymore... and I don't know if what I want is even possible -- if it (she) even exists anymore.

I would never be having all these thoughts if I knew that what I wanted did not exist. I'm not delusional. I would never allow myself to waste time, energy, emotions.... on something that didn't exist, or that I knew was an impossibility. I'm a huge fan of efficiency... wasting time and resources and energy bugs me to no end.

I have to read TM's "self-respect" thread... because I'm struggling with the self-respect thing... who with any healthy amount of self-respect could continue to "put up with" what she's doing... and still want her back? I ask myself that, and others ask me that -- my family, friends (my support....) -- either directly or indirectly.


The big problem is...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You are letting her go, if that is what she wants. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep... that's true. But it's also true that I'm letting her go because I don't know what she wants.

And my life is passing me by.

I don't even know that if SHE knew what she wanted, she'd tell me... at this point, I'd rather endure a nasty, hateful divorce process than knowing nothing at all.

Maybe I need to get away from here for a while. I can convince myself of lots of things, until I read things that make me doubt myself.

I'm not as screwed up as I sound... I'm not despondent or depressed... I guess I'm just doubting -- at the moment -- what I'm thinking/feeling.

Sometimes it feels like how WW has handled/not handled things in the last 5 months -- after leaving, 7 months after D-day -- has been more "unfair" than the affair itself.

I pretty much -- not entirely -- get the "choose to love" thing. It's the "choose to not love" that I'm having a problem with.

edited to add:

Well, that was a fun little pity-party, but all parties must come to an end...

The Email goes out before 8am this morning. It's OB's weekend (ie. AWAY from his son, and WITH my STBXW), so maybe it'll at least put a slight damper on her Weekend-O'-Fantasy.

Will I get a response of some kind?

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!

<small>[ March 11, 2005, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

tqt, I know how you feel. The way I personally got over those questions, those self-doubts, was to do what was in MY heart.

I certainly didn't love who my H was when he was wayward, but I sure did love the H I had known for 15 years before that. I loved him a whole lot. I also believed that what we had was very special, and that for reasons I couldn't understand, he had lost sight of that. I also had a gut feeling that given enough time, and distance from FBF/OW, he would "wake up" and realize this too.

Those were beliefs I held deep within myself. I also firmly believed that if the tables were turned, he would have waited for me to clear my head and come back to him. In fact, all during the ordeal, I strived to handle it the way I thought HE would have handled it ~ WAAAAY better than I did.

I decided, while my H was wayward and mean and distant, that no matter what the REST of the world would have done, I was going to be true to MYSELF. My inner, core self, NOT my ego.

My inner core self, the "soft spot" in all of us, truly loved my H. NOT his exterior, his ego, which is what was out during his A. I loved HIS inner core self, HIS "soft spot." Perhaps it is called the soul, or the essence of his being, his inner child.

All the crap I saw during the A, we all have dark sides. And none of us are proud of them when they get the better of us. And instead of doing what would SEEM to be the smart/right thing and change our behavior, sometimes our minds play tricks on us and try to JUSTIFY that behavior, that is making us feel poorly. A vicious, perpetual cycle. What I saw from H during his dark time, was so much posturing and justifying ~ not his true self, just his ego all out of balance.

With all that said, my H was gone for 3 months. He had committed to IC, and after 6 weeks, committed to MC (although not with the intention to save the M at first, to make the D go more smoothly). Also, the A was done the day he confessed to me. She dumped him. She still talked to him, still led him on with comments like, "Well, maybe after the D, we could see each other." He got all kinds of mixed signals from her.

What I am trying to say is, in a perfect world, I would have been able to hold onto my outlook, my hope, for 13 months or more. BUT, I don't know. I want to think I could, but . . . that is a LONG time to go without companionship. And I know I have said that D'ing to date is not a good reason to D. I also know that being tied to somebody, who is not reciprocating, DOES block off possible reception of ANY kind of company.

As long as you are M'd to her, while she is off doing her own thing, you are kinda shut up into a box of no female companion. And it has been that way for a while.

Only you can know. And it is OK that you DON'T know. Which is another benefit of Plan B. You can technically be DOING something (Plan B), without having to actively DO something (Plan D).

I have read [H]'s story before, well, part of it. I thought it was very interesting how he came back to his M. Imagine the coincidence he had to come across that man who counseled him on instant messenger. The man didn't tell him what to do, didn't suggest anything. He simply asked him very important questions at important times. And listened.

Do you know your wife's "soft spot?" Can you guess what kind of chance she would have extended to you if the roles were reversed? Do you believe you had something truly special? Or are these some of the answers your still not sure about?

Hang in there. It will be interesting to see if she responds to your email. I'm telling you, she might just shock the [censored] out of you one of these days ~ my H sure did shock me with his resolve to come back, once he made that decision for himself.

Spidey