And ANOTHER thing... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I absolutely think that some WS's do not return because of the guilt/shame.

From LOTS of things she said before/during/after leaving, I tend to think that's a huge part of it for my WW.

And I can't see that continuing the A is going to do anything but exacerbate those things.

That's probably another reason why the Plan F deal has looked reasonable to me... with no communication, there's no opportunity to drive home the point that together we could (could have?) rise above the guilt/shame (ie. forgiveness), and that it didn't need to be what kept her away.

Sorry, not well said.

I do not see Plan F doing anything, though. Except letting her know how much you still care for her. Which to the WS, means that she has no direct consequences for her actions. That is MY point. You say Plan B wasn't working. I think it WAS working. You just weren't getting what you WANTED, which was communication from her.

Do you plan on calling her each week and asking her to make a decision? Over and over again? Doing the same thing and expecting different results? At least in Plan B, the only dissappointment you can get is from YOURSELF, because Plan B has nothing to do with the WS.

I don't think you are going to be able to get her away from OB, the way you are thinking you might be able to. She might be saying that to you just to try and "make you feel better." Who knows what she is thinking???

You asked her in a very nice way, out of respect for you, to end it since she obviously doesn't want to be with you. She ignored you, yanked your chain, probably even outright lied to you, then took off to FL with her boyfriend. Plan F is a bust, IMO.

Yes, every BS is afraid of the choice their partner is going to make in the end. BUT, in Plan B you can get to a point of personal recovery, where you know that if the WS doesn't choose you, they are no longer the person you M'd, anyway. That is the way I looked at it with my FWH. At first, I felt like I would do anything to ensure that he chose me in the end, or at least didn't NOT choose me at the moment. But after I found my Inner Strength, I realized that if he had changed that much, and chose this new life like he said he wanted, that I didn't want to be weighed down by him anymore.

I guess at some point, you have to totally let go. You do let go for a while, but you always pull her back in close again. That does not serve you, and it doesn't serve her at all. Before she can ever come back to you, tqt, she is going to have to give the OB the brush-off, BY HERSELF. It cannot be YOU calling him, saying, "My W says leave her alone or I'll come mess you up, or call the cops."

You cannot do this for her, or even with her. You have to give her the time to fall flat on her face, and THEN give her the time to figure out how to get back up on her own. It will probably be the hardest thing you have ever done in your life, but to do otherwise is not doing her any favors, IMO. She will always be vulnerable in the future if she doesn't not do this herself.

If your heart is not ready for Plan D, and I don't think it is, the Plan B is the way to let this process happen. Plan F, with the continued contact and continued assurances that you are there for her and going to help her, only ENABLE her. You might feel the opposite is true, but after posting here for over a year, I don't think Plan F will do anything beneficial ~ for you or her.

Spidey

Spidey, what did I ever do to deserve all your patience and understanding?

Wait... don't answer that.

I do understand, tqt. I really do. I'm sorry if I am coming across negatively to you. I just HATE seeing you in turmoil and pain. And all I can do to help you is share with you all of the hard lessons I've learned in this nightmare of infidelity.

I have come to realize that infidelity is SOO much like an addiction. Your WW is addicted to how the OM makes her feel. Period, the end, in a nutshell. It may ebb and flow, come and go, but he is still making her feel good. I know this, because if he wasn't, she wouldn't be with him anymore.

I know you believe she just can't get out, but . . . she got out of YOUR R didn't she? When she was convinced that it wasn't working? As soon as the feel-good feelings go away, the A will die. It is the nature of the A itself.

And it will run its course, whether you are protected in Plan B, along with the love you have left for your WW ~ OR if you are in the middle of it all, getting hurt and taking hits trying to execute a Plan F.

However, as I have told you before, I will not desert you. Once you have made a decision, I try to support you as best I can. This Plan F thing just seems to be growing, and becoming more and more, and I don't see any protection for YOU. Because your WW has no thoughts of protection for you right now. None. She has made that painfully obvious the past few days, the last few correspondences.

It is sooooo easy to get caught back up in the WS chaos, thinking that in some way, you can influence it one way or the other. My experience here is that you have no influence at all. I had no influence at all, past exposure in the very beginning, of my FWH's A. Heck, if I'd had any, I would have ended it a LOT sooner, or simply declared it wasn't to be in the first place!

So, I still love ya. My words aren't trying to be, "I'm right, you're wrong." I WANT you to be able to do something you feel is productive. BUT, I don't think such a thing exists. It is an illusion. I think it just leaves you exposed, unprotected. THAT is where my words are coming from, even if they don't come across that way.

What an interesting chapter for our book!

Spidey

I do understand, tqt. I really do. I'm sorry if I am coming across negatively to you. I just HATE seeing you in turmoil and pain.
And... I do appreciate your caring and support. Wow... do I ever... more than I can say. You know that, right??

AND I want you to know that, compared to what it was before, the pain isn't really that bad. As time goes on, it's getting replaced with... regret?... and I guess just plain old frustration. LOTS of frustration! Sure wish I could get flaming PISSED, though... Why can't I?


I know you believe she just can't get out, but . . . she got out of YOUR R didn't she? When she was convinced that it wasn't working?
I've said this before (I think on page 927), but again for the record:

On her way out the door, she said:
"why am I doing this?"
and
"why didn't you tell me to just go away for a month a long time ago?"
and
"I love you like I should love a husband I've been with for 25 years."

I'll go to my grave thinking that a decent amount of it was thinking that she HAD to leave.
(No, I'm not saying she wasn't addicted to the OB as well)


Because your WW has no thoughts of protection for you right now. None.
I don't know if she ever did... it's possible.


However, as I have told you before, I will not desert you.
Even during the garage sale? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


What an interesting chapter for our book!
Heh heh heh... you don't think all this turmoil stuff has been REAL, do ya?!?
(Shhhh! It's for the BOOK, Spidey, the BOOK!)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Even during the garage sale? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I can't make any promises about THAT. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I know your pain has lessened over this time, and I credit a lot of that to Plan B. Also realize that your wounds are far from healed. They are just now closing, and encounters with WW can rip them open again, too easily. And then it takes MORE TIME to close them again.

Let them stay closed. Let yourself heal. IMO, being in Plan B is being a hero ~ for both the possibility of your M in the future, AND for YOURself. You are protecting the love you have left, and also healing yourself for your own future ~ whatever that may be.

So, do you have any big plans for the weekend to take your mind off all this crap? How about an outing on a friend's boat? Or, you could set up appointments with a realtor and start looking around at condo's.

And there's always the garage cleaning and gutter clearing to fall back on. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> OR, come to Idaho! And help us with the garage sale! There's all kinds of possibilities.

Spidey

First, the important stuff.

How about an outing on a friend's boat?

It's 39 degrees outside, woman! Snow is on the way!
I know... REAL men LOVE Blizzard Boating... I've heard it before...


Now, the wimpy whiney FEEEEELINGS stuff...

Also realize that your wounds are far from healed. They are just now closing, and encounters with WW can rip them open again, too easily. And then it takes MORE TIME to close them again.

Yep... and the scar tissue builds and builds...

Got about 2 hours sleep, after waking up constantly thru the night. At 3:38 this morning, it hit me REAL hard: Right this minute, I know EXACTLY where my wife is. I can see the house, the bedroom, the bed -- crystal clear. The same house, the same bedroom, the same bed, the same pillows where a year ago, and two years ago, and three years ago... I slept, holding my wife. The most important person in the world. The person I loved and cherished more than anything else... the only person on this earth I would've died for.

And right at that very moment, another man was in that exact same spot... holding my wife.
And of course it hurt like hell -- for a few seconds -- and then I literally shook my head and said "THIS is INSANE."

And then I started thinking how my MIL would be sleeping in the other bedroom... and the whole scene made me disgusted.

My WW KNOWS she's been stringing me along... for months now... how can she sleep with another man -- literally right in front of her mother?
How can these people live with themselves? Where's the dignity? The self-respect? The decency? The moral character? Can it be THAT HARD to say to themselves "NO! This is wrong" ????

And then I started to feel really, really abused.
Excuse my language: I'm being pissed on. I'm being treated like a piece of trash. And she/they/the THREE of them, are acting, behaving, LIVING like trash.

I want something better for me -- I'm nothing all that special, but I deserve more than she, I think, can ever be. All I'm talking about is honesty, integrity... the high road, rather than... the gutter.

Hey... how creative of me... I'm tearing down her pedestal, and using the pieces to build my own little soapbox. Cool.


And then.... there's GREAT NEWS!
Driving to work this morning... I was... Yes! PISSED-OFF at her... yeeehaaa! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />
Anger is a wonderful thing <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Let them stay closed. Let yourself heal.

You betcha <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


IMO, being in Plan B is being a hero

Hero? I feel like an idiot. Let me rephrase that: I feel like an IDIOT.
The bar has been raised... I need a ladder to reach it -- I do believe that what it would take for me to "allow" her back is for her to come crawling on her hands and knees. IOW, such a huge display of remorse... that would indeed mean she's become a new person.

It ain't gonna happen. And I will not only survive... I will thrive. Dammit.


So, do you have any big plans for the weekend to take your mind off all this crap?

Spidey! It's happening right there in Boise, too... it's NCAA tournament time, baby! Get with the program, would ya? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


And there's always the garage cleaning and gutter clearing to fall back on.

I'm thinking I could sell the house "AS-IS" and let the new owners clean the garage. Reasonable, or ?


OR, come to Idaho! And help us with the garage sale!

I thought you'd never ask!
Life is Good again <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's 39 degrees outside, woman! Snow is on the way! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, well then, stay off the water! You'll catch your death of cold. Good thinking. I was wondering why my Dr. Phil was PRE-EMPTED yesterday by BASKETBALL!!! I was on the phone with my H while he was at work, and I was so confused ~ I literally said out loud, "Today isn't Saturday or Sunday, is it?" Even though he was at work and my kids were at school. Sheesh. Basketball is great and all, but leave Dr. Phil where he is supposed to be!

I really enjoyed reading your post, about your FEEELINGS. You are right. It is all sick. Part of the disease, that has spread into her family. I still have a hard time talking to my MIL. Because all the years before the A, she told me how good I was for her son. Then he goes up there for a few hours and tells her the fogged-out WS crap about how unhappy he's been for years, how he loves this other woman, how he has been having an A with her, and his mother tells him to "Do what makes you happy, but you should be honest with Spider about what is going on with OW."

Thanks MIL! Woo-hoo. I see how much you really believed in me as his W, how much you believe in M in general. I fully expected her to tell him to do MC with me, to stay with me, end the A, and try to make it work. Nope. Now, her story is that she knew all along that he was going to come back, that she advised him the way she did because she already knew what he was going to do.

Whatever.

I guess that was how I let my FWH go before he came home. I thought, he is treating me like [censored], making crap up, has become someone unrecognizable to me. Everything I loved about him ~ the safety I felt with him, the friendship, honesty, respect, trust ~ was gone. He didn't even physically look like my H anymore. He was gaunt, thin, always looked either extremely sad or extremely pi$$ed off, didn't smile or laugh anymore.

I thought, "I don't want THAT. Let the OW have what is left of him. I deserve/want/will have better, whether it is with him or not!"

I just became disgusted with the whole thing. My H's closest friend during the whole thing, pretty much stayed out of everything ~ he didn't want to become involved. Well, ironically and sadly, his W D'd him recently ~ before that he discovered that she has been having an A with an old highschool sweetheart. And HE was so disgusted with how her MOTHER facilitated her meetings with this OM, even while they were still M'd and living together.

And I wonder now if this friend wishes he'd been more involved with my H, given his opinion. Because he was just flabbergasted at how everyone just accepted it all, with no outcry of how wrong it all is. This friend is NOT a bad guy at all. He is great. He just came from a background, I think, of "mind your own business." But then it happened to him.

We just live in a world now-a-days that is morally bankrupt, I think. Very few people do or say anything about this stuff when they see or hear it. The ones that DO say and do something, I have found, are the ones it has happened to personally. If infidelity affects 60-80% of M's in the US . . .

Anyway, hold onto your anger for a while. Keep posting here this weekend. I'll be in and out, you know, with the garage sale!

Spidey

quick update... during a timeout while my/our team is in the process of blowing the game...

Wow.

My... OUR... team just lost 20 seconds ago... the first major UPSET in this tournament... in overtime...

So where the hell is my wife? We've gone thru hundreds and hundreds of these games together... we went to the Final Four together..

This sucks.

Anyway... just a game. Wonder if she thought about me... watching us lose... with her new man...

Only other news is...regarding the Infamous

Here's-My-Response-To-Plan-F-Here's-What-I'm-Doing-To-End-Our-Marriage Email that never made it to me...

the last thing she said was:

"well, I'll have to print it off and send it to you; I have to send you my W2 anyway."

Got some mail from her today. Her W2, and nothing else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Got some mail from her today. Her W2, and nothing else. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I am SHOCKED! Aren't you just SHOCKED??? Just as shocked as I was that every single other email she sent you got through, EXCEPT the one you are looking for.

She is avoiding. She doesn't want to make a commitment either here nor there.

And you know what?? Her loss! Her loss for missing the game with you. I hope she DID feel like crap remembering all your good memories. I hope she feels like the weight of the world is sitting on her CHEST, so that she can wake up that much sooner.

But if she doesn't, you are so much better off without her. If my FWH hadn't shocked the crap out of me and pulled his stuff together, I wasn't going to take him back.

Now, in the very beginning after D-day, and until about 6 weeks into the separation, I would have taken him back for ANY reason. I want to believe I wouldn't have slept with him if he'd wanted to, but I'm not sure. I felt so desperate to "get him back," get him "away from the OW."

Then, once I started slaying things (mostly my FEAR), I adopted a very healthy attitude of: "If that is what you want to do, knock yourself out. I will not fight you on a D, I will not file the D you say you want, and I will no longer be engaging in the chaos that is YOUR life."

I wanted to know if they were going out, still sleeping together, talking on the phone, still sending emails on their "secret" accout that I found with my superior snooping skills. Sometimes the urge to know all that stuff had me picking the phone up to call, putting the phone down, picking the phone up to call, putting the phone down.

I wrote emails, letters, that I never gave to FWH. It was like a journaling for me. I wrote to my REAL H, the one I didn't know if I would ever see again. I told him of my pain, of what this strange being in his body was doing. I remembered with him in my letters, to validate that my life up to that point was not a lie. As with you, H have spent over 1/2 my life with my H ~ and to feel like it was not what I thought it was all those years was probably the most hurtful part.

Then I realized that I had not lost my mind. For me, all those years were what I thought they were. I could not question my reality like that. If HE hadn't felt that way and was faking it the whole time, then he had bigger problems than I thought anyway, and I was even BETTER off without him!

Hang in there. I'm sorry your team lost. I'm bummed that I fell asleep during the tennis match I was watching last night. I can't even remember who was playing ~ Roddick and somebody. I was so upset yesterday! Andre Aggasi had to pull out of the Quarterfinals because of a big toe injury! First time he has EVER pulled out of a tournament once he's in it. I guess it was a freak thing ~ he woke up in the middle of the night and felt it throbbing, but thought it was an ingrown toenail and went back to sleep. When he woke up, the thing was 2-3X the normal size, and hurts to be moved. They tried taping it up, but he couldn't move at all. Especially enough to play Lleyton Hewitt! So, I guess yesterday was a day of sports disappointments for us.

Oh well. AND, we are not having our garage sale this morning. We had to put it off because you aren't here yet to help out! Make sure you leave a little earlier next week, because now it is scheduled for NEXT Saturday. You can even bring the dusty girl you ditched in Ohio a few weeks back. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Spidey

SPIIIDEEEEEYYYYYY!

can I stop cleaning now?

please?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> can I stop cleaning now? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, that depends, are you DONE yet? That's what I ask my boys when they ask ME that same question. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I hope you had a good weekend. Mine was OK. The boys and I have almost finished a very cool puzzle. BUT, I made H his very most favoritest cookies, and so far today I have eaten too many. Yesterday, I only had one. Today, I have gone crazy. I had about 5 after lunch, and I just had 5 after dinner. Actually, I kind-of just had a linner (lunch/dinner combination), meaning I had 5 cookies on each side of that one meal. *sigh*

I'll have to run extra hard tomorrow morning.

Spidey

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">made H his very most favoritest cookies</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry... WHOSE favorite cookies? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

<small>[ March 20, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WHOSE favorite cookies? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I KNOW! Sheesh. I made them for his friend, too. We went to a poker party last night at his house, and I took over half of the cookies there. When we left, there were none left. I didn't take enough! Now, we still have several dozen here. Ugh. I'll have H take them to work tomorrow. I just have to make it through the rest of the night! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

...but more importantly, I suppose...

I won't lie... didn't have all that good of a weekend. First, there was this garage sale that got postponed...

And.. I had way too much time to think all weekend (I seem to be able to clean and think at the same time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> ).

I tried... and tried... to hate her... but I missed her like hell.

That's why I haven't posted all weekend. I'm tired of hearing myself whine.....

tqt, don't hold it all inside of you. Whining is perfectly acceptable here at MB. Post that whine right out of yourself!

No more being silly. Post post post. If you don't get it out, you will hear it in your head for forever, and you will go crazy!

And, it is OK to miss her. Just don't contact her and tell her that. She must see the natural consequences of her actions.

BUT, I've already told you all that. She is acting as a rebellious child to some extent. The natural inclination is to "love" her back to herself, but . . . my experience in this is that tough love only will work. Have you ever read that book, BTW? It is very good.

Keep posting!

Spidey

Spidey, I can't get this question out of my head...

She said she was going to stop over at the house last Sunday.

Why would she do that?

And why didn't she?

This was the weekend after getting the "Plan F" email from me... and Sunday was the day she purportedly wrote/sent me a response.

I just don't understand why she'd want to show up -- what was the motivation?

Was she "looking" for something -- was there something she wanted to hear?

<small>[ March 21, 2005, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: tqt ]</small>

Yes, there is something she was looking for, something she wanted to hear. She wanted reassurance that you are still there for her, waiting for her, loving her ~ because she isn't ready to stop what she is doing right now.

All WS's seek that confirmation when the BS goes dark. She is fishing to see if she will be forced to make a hard decision soon. Will that decision be for you or against you? I don't know.

But I can pretty much guarantee that is what she was looking for. Making sure she still has you both on the line, so she knows she is "safe" with her current sitch.

All of her stuff is self-centered still. She will only do stuff that benefits her, makes her feel better.

Spidey

Thanks, Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BTW, just a word of warning... if you're not careful, you're going to get a reputation for providing intelligent, caring, relentless, insightful, invaluable...and thorough...support.

THEN whaddyagonna do?!?


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">my experience in this is that tough love only will work. Have you ever read that book, BTW? It is very good. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've decided to start actually answering at least 1-2 of your questions every year, instead of just spouting off.

Yes... the book is in my Library of Misery, and I read at least 3/4's of it.

I found this place SOOOO late in the game... did SOOO much reading.... trying to figure everything out for myself from 2/04 thru 7/04...then had a MC help make things worse from 8/04 to 10/04... I guess I should feel great that I managed to do something to keep her here for 8 months after D-day, while she continued to work with/do-whatever-with OB... and lied to everyone for the duration...and fooled everyone...

ANYway... speaking of books.. I've been thinking about picking up (again) "How to Fall Out of Love" --- don't have it in front of me, so don't know the author, but it's been around for years, and is supposedly good. I started reading it a while ago, but then decided I didn't need it, for some reason.

I might need it after all.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, there is something she was looking for, something she wanted to hear. She wanted reassurance that you are still there for her, waiting for her, loving her ~ because she isn't ready to stop what she is doing right now. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There's something in my gut, and it's not my dinner, because I just got back from the gym (there are a lot of nice women out there...WTH am I doing?!?)...

Something in my gut (and I could be 180 degrees off base, I KNOW that) that tells me she wants me to... convince her... can't think of a better way to put it -- that our M is still salvageable. That I want her back. That she can be forgiven.

because of...

how badly she's screwed everything up, and
how deeply she's dug herself into this hole, and
how much pressure-of-whatever-kind the OB continues to put on her...

she's simply incapable of doing anything on her own. She can't see/understand that it's possible to heal, reconcile, end up in a better place...

I guess I've said the same thing in 12-15 different ways, huh?

But I was thinking that maybe that's why she... almost?... showed up at my doorstep last week. In hopes of hearing that, or getting some kind of sign.
And why she decided not to show up? Ummm... shame, perhaps?

Not arguing here -- just giving a different (slanted/biased/wounded) point of view ---

Tough Love is warranted... and Tough Love may be the only thing that brings her back.
Unless she doesn't feel worthy of Love in the first place.
Or, worse... unless she doesn't understand Love in the first place.

Sorry for the philosophical babble.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> she wants me to... convince her... can't think of a better way to put it -- that our M is still salvageable. That I want her back. That she can be forgiven. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I love philosophical babble. Sometimes it goes over my head, but even then sometimes I stay in the fray, smiling and nodding knowingly (because I don't know what anyone's talking about anymore).

Well, tqt, she very well COULD be doing that. But, just because she thinks she needs that from you, doesn't mean it is a good idea to give it to her, does it? Are you back in the "wanting my WW back at all costs?"

Or, do you want her to come back to you with the capability/possibility of making some real changes in your M so this type of thing doesn't happen again? You have at this point been in he!! for over a year. IF she is unwilling/unable to change, would it not be "logical" to cut your losses at some point?

I think that is the magic of a dark Plan B ~ forcing your WW to make the choice between 1)losing all your support and love forever because she refuses to alter her hideous lifestyle, or 2)starts making choices suited to the M woman she is, and she seeks help to understand how to get back to where she needs to be.

IF you chose to attempt to rescue her from herself, I believe you will be setting yourself up for failure. What she has done, cannot be just swept under the rug if she ever comes home. It requires a LOT of talking, crying, yelling, holding, understanding, compassion ~ and a total willingness of BOTH parties to do whatever it takes to facilitate healing in the M. It truly is not for the weak, it's hard on the weary, and it is impossible for someone who cannot even face their own issues/demons.

Because if she ever comes back, she has to be able to see your pain. Not every day, but eventually she will have to be able to acknowledge what her actions created. This is all critical to healing.

Why didn't she come over the other day? Most likely fear. She probably still fears rejection from you. She knows she doesn't want to stop her A, and you have said that is required of her if she wants you in her life. So, basically, she was going to "circumvent" the rules, in order to get some support for her own self, from you.

Pretty self-serving. What I would have LOVED is if she would have shown up at your door, and you said, "Oh, have you ended your A with OB?" And she said, "No, I just wanted to see you." And you said, "Sorry. Come back when/if you break off your A with OB. Have a great day!"

THAT is the kind of stuff that makes things happen. You keep her too comfortable. You have built her a little soft puffy couch on top of that fence she is sitting on. And you bring her little slices of cake (from your heart!) each time she even LOOKS hungry ~ she doesn't even have to ASK.

She is one spoiled girl, tqt.

Spidey