Does this not sound like a thinly veiled, self-serving, piece of drivel? First, kinda "probing" with the family trip crap. Then, "or not?" WTH? Either ask a question, or don't. Good grief. Then she is "glad" you have found the time to do stuff you were too busy to do before??? Implying that she has somehow "freed" you into discovering time and importance in your life? Or something? Either trying to show you some "good" that has come from her A ~ which, even if there HAS been good, it has been thanks to you and your resilient spirit, not HER ~ AND, she has no business pointing anything like that out to you, IMVHO. OR, or, or, she is trying for some sick self-pity like "see, I was never good for you because now you can find time to do things you didn't before when you were with me ~ whoa is me." Same with the business must be good, and the dog comment.

I don't know her very well, and I could be way off, BUT . . . I guess she didn't get the title WWW for nothing, eh??

I guess the reason I'm pointing all this out to you, from my perspective, is because . . . it seems pretty manipulative to me. She is still getting in your head, even if in subtle ways that you don't notice. Which is probably why her communications to you make you feel poopy. Because she is being a sh|t!

ANYway, I'm off my soap box. Don't let her crap get under your skin, and don't wonder why you feel negatively after communicating with her. She is just off in her own la-la land, IMO, and . . . I don't know. She's just off in her own la-la land.

Hang in there.

Spidey

Spidey, I really really really needed that.
You're amazing.
Thank you, my friend

More later after pretending to work today...

Hmmm....you are correct -- it would be MUCH better to suck at something WITHOUT investing a lot of time and money.
So, let me think it over some more...

.......

Ok, I'm done.

Here's what I REALLY think:
I think if that's what you choose to do, you will prosper -- guaranteed.
Which, of course, just slightly resembles what I thought yesterday... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I WILL add to that, however. Two things.

You're talking about the counseling side of psychology, right? Have you thought about a particular "specialty" to narrow it down further? I'm not suggesting (WTH do I know?!?) you should, especially right now -- I'm just curious.

Have you envisioned the day-to-day life of a person in this career -- including the parts that are, AND are NOT, things you get excited about? And really knowing nothing about being a psychologist, other than the obvious, I'll give some not-so-good "generic" examples of what I mean.

Things like... the paperwork/documentation, and the research... and if you work for yourself, the process of building and maintaining the business... attracting new clients, etc.

WHY am I saying all this gobbledygook? (excuse my language)
Because, and you said it yourself: it IS a big investment of time and money. The more you can refine the Ultimate Goal, the better able you are to design the path to get there, and the fewer surprises (and disappointments) there will be once you've arrived. Common sense... and I feel like an idiot saying these things to you... but I'm just brain-dumping here...

Another thought, before I forget. Would online courses be a way to get started and/or solve certain issues? You might be surprised at what's out there. (it's also not cheap, though)
I know there are schools offering Master's degrees (in psychology too) either partially or totally online, for example. And they're not all hogwash -- I'm talking about the legitimate ones, where course content is essentially identical to on-campus classes. IOW, the stigma surrounding online education is slowly but surely fading, IMVHO.

As you should be! :-)

Another topic... Spidey, have you already seen this site?
http://www.itbs.info/

Yes, and YES! Clinical counseling, and I want to specialize in ~ what else ~ relationships. The man Schnark that I have told you wrote "Passionate Marriage" is a leader in the field of treting the ENTIRE relationship. It is very complex, and he says for a long time the dynamics between man and woman have not been treated as a whole, and worse still, many practices used currently in MC can be very destructive. My H and I had 2 MC's before the one that really helped guide us through recovery ~ both of them did not understand 1)the M relationship as a whole (IMO), but most importantly 2)the nature of infidelity.

In fact, that is who I want to conspire to train with some day. Either himself or others that have studied under him. He has a center for couples that he runs, plus his private practice. I want to learn all I can, to help people understand and prosper in their M's, for families to be able to stay together.

So, mostly that is what my practice would center around ~ relationship counseling. Since many couples don't seek out help BEFORE they become in crisis, I expect to be helping those involved in infidelity, or at least one partner already checked out of the M.


No I hadn't! Thank you, I have bookmarked it to peruse later at my leisure. Today I have to drop off a desert to a client, in between cleaning 2 houses.

Yesterday I rode my bike around for about an hour total, and last night I went to Pilates. Yay! And I am getting my bathroom taped up for the painting. And my knee is in its second day of not hurting. Whoo-hoo!

Chat at you later!

Spidey

Ok, here goes...

Far be it from me to unleash The Wrath of Spider Slayer (wasn't that a movie?)
And brow-furrowing makes me nervous....

I've been communicating (email) with my "HSS." You know that acronym, right?.

But wait... before you think the worst... I'd rather not go to MB He||, if I can avoid it.
I've already been in He|| for the last 2 years, and my visa is just starting to expire. IOW, it's time to get out of that place.

HSS's M is, for all intents and purposes, over, and has been for years (there are kids, and that's why there still IS a M at all).

I can defend myself (I think), but for now, I'll go put my helmet on, try to squeeze back into my asbestos suit, and wait for the fallout from the above.

Ummmm.... so uhhh.... so how was YOUR day today, Spidey?

Oh, I don't think so.


OK, honestly, if she was single, your VSTBXWWW has filed D, and that seems to be a done deal, no problem. I would do the typical advisory "don't get involved too soon because there is a HIGH chance that no matter how you feel right now, you could hurt her down the line, because you haven't had time to heal yourself yet" blah blah blah.

BUT BUT BUT BUT! that is not the case. Do you realize that your WWW's current boyfriend might have told HIS friend the same thing about your M? To justify him being with a M'd woman??? I could just hear that! "Yeah, she's M'd to this tqt guy, but the M has been over for years. No, no kids, besides my own, but my M has really been over for years, too. We've just hung around for the kids."

That sounds all nice and pretty when you are on that side of it, doesn't it? Do you think her H would be any less hurt to know that HIS VSTBWW is doing/saying the same things to another man, that your WWW did, that hurt you so badly???

I am just sitting here shaking my head. Words are not enough. If you continue on the path you are on, you could perpetuate the same pain that has been wrought in your life the past 2 years. Can you do that? I am telling you from someone on the outside, you are slipping into your own fog, tqt.

Hmmm, let's see, what is one theory about WS's that we talk about a lot here. Oh, that there is something going on in their lives, that they cannot deal with on their own, so they seek out this secret R, to live out their fantasy life in ~ to escape reality. Let's see, you are going through a difficult time, maybe one you are not prepared to deal with right now (no 2X4, because WHO is ready to deal with the end of a M, it is hard, I'm not taking that away from you). Oh, and let's see, she is in an unfulfilling M and is not equipped with the proper tools/informatin/MOTIVATION to deal with that in a positive way.

Wow, and you two have both come together, and it makes you feel good about yourselves, and you have already started with the rationalization/justification. That is the first step, tqt. You both start talking about why it is OK, why it is OK to step over bounds that you know are not to be crossed.

Your earlier quote should have read "My HSS, who is married." Period. No explanation/justification/rationalization on the end. Her union should be inviolate, should be respected, should be given the benefit of the doubt. And for more than just the kids!!! For their future! Didn't you think your 20+ years deserved some work from your WWW? I think that is what I have heard you say on more than one occassion. Well, doesn't her H, her M, deserve the same???

IMVHO, you should tell her some of the above, and tell her about the book HNHN by Harley, and tell her she deserves, her H deserves, her kids deserve, for her to get that book and read it. At that point, she should either begin working on her M with MC or on their own, or start the D process. Dr. Phil says that kids would rather COME from a broken home than LIVE in a broken home.

You could be so far in at this point, that you dismiss what I say and simply refuse to talk to me about it anymore, and continue on your merry way with her. I pray you don't. Please tell me you are not that far in ~ yet.

Spidey

An emphatic no, no, no, no, no, and no.

And Spidey... refuse to talk to you about it anymore?!??

I'm a little disappointed that you don't give me more credit than that, but I didn't give you nearly enough information, so I understand where you're coming from.

I'll paint a more detailed picture, for starters... and maybe the best way is to write a list...
and some of this stuff, I know, falls into the "who cares" and "that's irrelevant" categories.

I've done more studying, thinking, learning about A's, the anatomy of A's, and all things related, than I care to think about. I've got it down pretty well... The reason I say that is so we don't spend time going over the fundamental stuff, and I'll give you an example of what I mean in a second.

But... I value your opinion, your wisdom, your judgment, and your friendship. I'd like you to know all the facts.

1) She lives 400 miles away. (here's my example: I know in one sense it doesn't matter WHERE she lives, but to get an accurate picture, it seems somewhat relevant. IOW, no, she doesn't live down the street.
2) There's no "persuing" going on, from either side. Not even close.
3) 10 years ago, her H filed for divorce. Then he "changed his mind."
4) Over the last 10 +/- years, they've been to a divorce mediator at least twice. Each time, things fell apart -- they couldn't even agree on how to divorce each other.
5) They've been to 3 (or more, maybe) different MC's. (Her initiative) Each time, it ended with the C saying "well, there's nothing else I can do for you."
6) She has called her H "emotionally abusive" and given me examples. Pretty good ones.
7) She has called her H "passive/aggressive to an extreme" and given me examples. Pretty good ones.
8) They do not speak to each other, unless necessary -- usually re: the kids
9) She says she cannot stand to be alone with him. She thinks she hates him. She most definitely resents him with a passion.
10) She dreads weekends, because he is home then
11) None of the above has ANYthing to do with ME, her feelings for me, her desire to "be with me" or anything else.
IOW, I understand exactly what you're saying here:
But it simply does not fit.


12) She said that she has started to see in her kids (10, 17, 18) signs of this -- living in/having BEEN living in a broken home.

13) On her birthday, very recently, her H was kind enough to tell her that they should probably see a divorce mediator. (don't ask me why he keeps suggesting the same thing, that has been proven not to work for them)
IOW, again, I understand exactly what you're saying here:
But the fact is, if he ever DID check IN to his M, he certainly checked OUT a long time ago.

Before I forget to say this...
My STBXW's A with OB was a very sleazy, dirty, disgusting mess (ok, they all are, but this one really reeked). Comparing that A with the exchange of email between me and "HSS" -- including the content of that email --- is simply way, way, WAY off. Unfair, actually.

Spidey, you're suggesting that I'm communicating with her because I can't deal with reality???!?

The reality is:
14) I've done all of the above. With the exception of telling her she should leave her H.
15) I've encouraged her, numerous times, to work on her M.
16) I've encouraged her to try again with counseling.
17) I given her ideas, suggestions... to appeal to her H in ways different than she has in the past.
18) I've given her a list of books and strongly suggested she read them (including HNHN)
19) I've offered to send her the books
20) I've told her about MB, and given her the information to get here.
21) She has declined -- refused -- all of the above.... and it has absolutely nothing to do with me. She gave up on her H a long time ago. They BOTH gave up a long time ago.

There's probably more to say, but I have to get some work done........

I feel like I have a pretty good understanding of MB principles -- I should, given the fact that I've been virtually glued to this place since last October. In my last post, I said I didn't want to go to MB He|| -- I said that because I'm obviously aware that I'm "breaking the rules." I'm communicating with a M'd woman. As (for all intents and purposes) a D'd man -- that's The One Rule I'm breaking.
Temper that with the fact that my communication with this M'd woman had been to ENCOURAGE her, and yes, to TEACH her as much as I'm equipped to do so, to try to SAVE her marriage.

Does any of this help to shed a different light on things? A little bit, I hope?

Yes, and no. I understand all that you are saying. I also know that as my best friend, FOW was doing all that with my H as well. She was trying to "help."

But that is the danger ~ talking to a M'd woman about her relationship with her H is VERY DANGEROUS ground. It just is.

If everything she has told you is true, then she should seek a D for herself and her kids. She hasn't. Let alone the fact she is M'd, she is definately NOT ready to get into another relationship right now.

Is your communication with her as platonic as mine and yours is? A friendly exchange of life events, suggestions, open talking that all can read? IOW, would you feel comfortable posting (I'm not saying you should, just hypothetical) all of your communications with her, right here on a MB site ~ everyone knowing that you are not yet D'd, and she is still M'd?

It is referenced as a "slippery slope" for a reason. Often, you don't know you are on it until you have tumbled to the bottom.

Spidey

I know it is. FWIW, I told HER that, too.

Well, I believe it is true -- all of it. I certainly have no suspicions that she's manufacturing this stuff, or even exaggerating it.

I agree. And, there is NO discussion of getting into a relationship with ANYone. And whether or not she decides to D, certainly will have nothing to do with me. I can only surmise that, at some point, she will take that step. Which she probably SHOULD do.

You'd be surprised at just how platonic it is! It seems that we could be FRIENDS, PERIOD -- forever.... That may sound strange in some way, or like I'm BS'ing you, but I'm not.
That's just the dynamics of the R. (And what makes it not even close to what you're thinking it is.)


You make it sound like I'm an adulterer....
Most people don't know my story, so I should add a little sidenote here and say that my STBXW's A started just about 2 years ago, D-Day was 18 months ago, we never recovered, she moved out almost 11 months ago, and the D papers have been filed. I'm 45 years old, and what's left of my life is ticking away...
My religious convictions aside, mostly because I'm not quite sure they are in the exact situation that I find myself right now... I feel ready, willing, and able to think about a R with another woman -- but I am not dating, nor persuing any kind of R with anyone (including the woman we've been discussing in the last couple posts). IOW, if "it just happens," I'm 1) not going to refuse it on the grounds that I'm "supposed" to wait longer, and 2) not going to feel guilty about it by any means.

I understand. But, as someone who spends WAY too much time analyzing not only my thoughts, but the situation I'm in, the chances of me losing my footing are very slim. I have more confidence in myself than that --- besides, I don't trust anyone enough anymore to let myself get snowed. For better or worse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Okay, so, what is the R? Are you friends, period? I guess I am having a disconnect between what I think I am reading, and what you are typing at me.

I guess I am thinking that the "tone" of a mere friendship would have sounded different to me. From your very first post, though, I heard the dreaded words ~ she is M'd, but it has been over for years, she just stays for the kids.

Almost every WS who comes to this site, justifying his/her actions, says something to that affect.

Does this woman not have any girl friends she can confide in? I know you think I am over-reacting, but yes I DO think you are in a vulnerable place right now. You are lonely, you don't like where your life is right now. And I don't blame you. But I am worried about you, and this R that I can't seem to understand.

Spidey

Hmmm... you're reading between the lines, is that what you're saying?

The answer really has to be YES. Why? Because there's no "relationship talk" between us, there's no, uhh... email sex <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> between us...

I agree it's not all that common, but it's NOT unheard of: men/women CAN be just friends after a more-than-friends R ends. Don't you agree?

Am I saying that it absolutely could never be more than friends again? No, I'm not. I'm not stupid, ignorant, or trying to kid myself OR you.
But does that have to mean that it's something I'm pursuing? No.

I don't have ANY idea if, for example, there's even any physical attraction there whatsoever! How would I, as I haven't seen her for 10 years (I've seen her once in 27 years -- ran into her at the airport about 10 years ago). Was it great to see her then? Sure it was. Did we run off to the nearest hotel before catching our flights? No.

I can't believe I'm writing this stuff.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

When she ends her M (and it certainly sounds like it's way beyond salvageable, as she has SAID it is... and to be perfectly honest, she sounds absolutely miserable), and SHE THEN, at an appropriate time, pursues something beyond a friendship, will I have an open mind about it? Sure.
But does ANY of that have to mean that, in being her friend right now, I must be wooing her away from her M, or causing conflict and turmoil for her, or her M? I can go to sleep at night knowing that, if I've had ANY influence whatsoever on her M, it's been positive -- and I gave you the list earlier.

Maybe it's the admittedly-sorta-weird TIMING of this that is causing it to seem like MORE than it is. But the fact that her M is going down the tubes, and neither of them seems to care (not even CLOSE) to do anything about it -- that has nothing to do with me, or my M, or my actions, inactions, anything I've said to her, or her to me.

I've read about 100's of M's here that should be, and could be (and may or may not have been) saved. I haven't read about ONE single M here where both partners are basically in don't-give-a-sh|t mode for years on end, say they hate each other, can't stand the sight of each other, essentially cease speaking to each other. Some M's are not to be saved. Some M's should never have happened in the first place.

The fact that HER M fits the above description... have I had, do I have... some sort of control over that? I care about her very much, and I feel TERRIBLE for her. Does that mean that I MUST be "behaving" in a way that I should not be?


Maybe you're hearing, in my words, the guilt that I DO feel, which comes from that little technicality... I'm breaking an MB Rule, and admitting it to the world on the MB forum: I'm communicating with a M'd woman.

If she hadn't contacted me first... if her M wasn't as she tells me it is (irretrievably broken, with no desire to fix it), we (you and I) wouldn't be talking about this stuff.

If:
she came to me (which she did), and
told me she was miserable (which she did), and
told me it wasn't a question of if, but WHEN her M ended (which she did), and
looked to me, as a friend whom she still cares very much about, for support, or someone to listen, someone to talk to (yes, I know, I know -- that's how A's start -- but we're beyond that point in the discussion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

What reason would I have to say to her "No, I can't really communicate with you via email right now." ???

Would it be:

No, can't talk to you, because we had a R in high school 27 years ago.
or
No, can't talk to you, because my D hasn't gone through yet.
or
No, can't talk to you, because you're M'd, and I'm a Male and you're a Female.

Which of those reasons, or maybe all three, would be "good enough" to tell a friend to "go away"
knowing her M is all but over, which is the only reason she wanted/needed to talk to me anyway?

I consider myself to be a fairly typical BS who tried to save his M, failed, and is now D'ing.
Yes, I'm lonely, and no, I don't like where my life is right now.
But, I'm probably not quite as vulnerable as you think I am -- I had a really REALLY good advisor, supporter, teacher, friend -- and COUNSELOR -- help me through this mess (forgot her name... it was something about bugs, I think)

And I appreciate you worrying about me. It means a lot to me!
And I will continue (if you let me) to tell you what's going on... but it's not going to be very "exciting" -- that's a good thing, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

I KNEW you'd be upset with me, but I wanted to tell you anyway, for a few reasons:
1) as you know, I value your opinion, judgement, et al....
2) you've helped me thru the toughest time of my life, and I want to share these things with you, as I move on to Chapter 2.
3) though I'm breaking a rule, technically -- I can still sleep at night, given all the facts of the situation. And...I'd like you to trust me -- that matters to me.

Of course, if I don't get more work done, I'll have to fire myself, and become destitute and homeless. If it gets really bad, can I live in your garage?

Well, you'd have to clean it first!

Well, I do trust you, and you seem to know of what you are speaking. If I hear any more direct quotes from "NOT Just Friends," though, I'm going to call you on them again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I think you gave me a white hair! And don't MAKE me use my frequent flier miles to come down there to straighten you out, instead of using them for our vacation and my little drink umbrellas ~ then I would REALLY be unhappy.

Spidey

Hmmm... what a dilemma....
how bad is it?

It's not white, Spidey... it's extra extra blonde!
And ya know what? It's been a stressful day for me, too... I DO take ALL of this stuff very seriously.

Yikes!
I promise I'll behave... and there's a little umbrella or two or three with your name on 'em :-)
And I MUST tell you about my trip, and will do so tomorrow.

ps. Thanks for hanging in there with me.

Ahem, I'm still waiting for the trip update!


Of course! Thanks for hanging in there with me. I got on the scale this morning, feeling like I've been doing really well lately, only to discover another 5 pounds! Ahhhh!!! I'm going for a short walk/run today. Heal knee, heal! I am coming up on the 1 month resting recommendation, and after reading through that link you sent me, I think the reason my knee hurt after run #2 is because I was supposed to wait 1 or 2 days. They said start off running only 5 minutes, 3 times a week. Not 30 minutes in 2 days!

*sigh*

I've got some hard work coming up, but I know I am up to it.

So, I'm patiently waiting for my update . . .

Spidey

What!?!?!
I refuse to speak to you until you get RID of that.

On the other hand, I could say...

5 pounds, 5 schmounds, who cares.... It's all WATER, anyway!
Spidey... the scale... it lies!

A-HA!!
Let's add some logic to the equation...
1) You FELT like you were doing well
2) You wouldn't have FELT that way if you were NOT pleased with
a) how you were feeling, physically, etc.
and/or
b) your appearance, ie. weight

Right?

I LOVE arguing about this stuff... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Can you tell?

I started writing late last night, but it got so, ummm... THOROUGH, that I bagged it. It was REALLY thorough. Guess I felt like yapping :-)
I'll try again with a more efficient version.

NEXT post, because I was just interrupted with a phone call from my parents about making reservations for... of all things... CHRISTMAS. (yeah, I'm certainly thinking about Xmas, aren't you?) The whole famn damily is trekking out to spend Xmas with my brother and his wife (and two very cute little kids) in Denver...

I'd like to not feel like the "odd man out" by then... the Single Guy... but it doesn't look too promising, does it...

Maybe more tonight, or tomorrow. In the meantime, Merry Christmas, Spidey :-)

Spidey, what do you think of this:


So... why did practically every word of that remind me of you-know-who??

Hmmm, that is a very interesting way of looking at someone who is self-absorbed.

I choose not to think of someone as "evil" because they put their own needs above others' (although I agree with the lazy part). I believe that people like your VSTBXWWW lack self love, therefore lack the ability to love anyone else. I do believe some people are evil, but I think they are sociopaths, who are born without something very important within themselves ~ a spirit, or a consciousness.

I guess I think more of your STBXWWW as misguided, uneducated about herself and the human condition in general. She might still think she is the only one who has ever felt the way she feels, or done the things she has done. In your situation, I see more immaturity than anything else ~ and trust me, I know what that looks like, as I lived it for many more years than I should have!

Sorry I didn't post back to you earlier, but we went to my Grandma's B-day party (80 1/2 birthday party, since she wouldn't let us do a party for her on her 80th) in another city about 4 hours away. Sheesh. You wouldn't BELIEVE the Hurculean effort it takes to get 4 people, 2 pillows, and one overnight backpack out the door by 9 am (and I had wanted to leave by 8!!!). Oh well. We made it, and only forgot to take our cameras and the frisbee ~ not bad.

About my now-more-than-10-pound-weight-gain-since-I-hurt-my-knee, thanks for your kind words. I am really looking forward to seeing them come back off! And I know what I have to do to make that happen; it involves lots of sweating, and eating fruits and veggies. I was able to run Friday morning, just a short ways. My knee felt pretty good all weekend, but is tender this morning. So, I will go to the gym today and do some elliptical trainer, and I go again tonight for more Pilates. Tomorrow I clean all day, but I will go to yoga at night. Hopefully, I can do another short run on Wednesday, if the knee is feeling no pain.

Honestly, I do not think I was mentally prepared for what happens when you get an injury like the one I got. Like when I sprained my ankle, I was hurt, but the ankle was big and purple and hurt all the time. It was obvious I was injured. But this time, the knee only hurts now and then. And it is so tempting to just keep running on it. And it is a bit frustrating and depressing. IF I get injured in this way again, I will have to implement Plan B before the now-more-than-10-pound-weight-gain-since-I-hurt-my-knee happens.

I am also committed to doing everything I can to make sure this knee thing doesn't happen again to me. I am going to lose the weight, AND strengthen my core, AND do strength training. If I am going to help other people in their mental health some day, I think it is important that I begin to master myself on more levels. Like being able to set reasonable goals and meet them. If I am going to ask someone else to do these things some day to improve their own life, I need to be able to lead by example.

Just like here on MB, I don't tell people stuff 1)outside of my experience, or 2)ask them to do things that I have not either done or been willing to do. Does that make sense? I have always found it a bit disconcerting to go to an "expert" for help, only to find them struggling obviously with their own demons ~ weight, smoking, fitness.

ANYway, talk about thorough! Look at the length of this post! So, how is the R going with the HSS? Is everything still on the up-and-up? I hope she can find some peace. Because the way she describes her life right now, she seems very very stuck. And she might have been stuck so long that she doesn't even realize the degree. In fact, I would think she doesn't. I think it is our nature when we live in very tough circumstances for a long time, to downplay it even to ourselves. I think that is how depression happens ~ it is just a little cloud at first, covering the bright day, then over time turns very dark and large. But the "eyes" adjust to the light change so slowly, it goes unnoticed. Whenever I have come out of a funk, I am always AMAZED at how during the funk, I didn't even realize I was in one! Not until I come out. Just like my H with the "fog;" he didn't think he was acting/thinking different than he had for over 30 years until he came out of it. Then he was scared at how different he became, and didn't even know it to himself.

OK, I'm going to go now. I must get my day started, and that means I have to unplug myself from this 'puter.

Oh yeah, Happy 50th Page Day! We are now on page 50 of our book. I think we are doing GREAT!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Spidey

Ya know, MY Grandma never played frisbee when she was 80.5 years old... no WONDER you were taking the cameras <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for writing, Spidey (nice post, btw!). I'll check back in and write this evening.

I agree with you, but the way I interpreted it, it doesn't say that because a person is self-absorbed, they must be evil.
That was from one of books in my ever-expanding library (Amazon.com LOVES infidelity, I'd guess), specifically in the "Relationships Suck" section, for which I had to put an addition on the house.

The title of the book is "The Emotional Rape Syndrome."

Truthfully, I have a hard time reading any of this stuff anymore... and all the books aside, I'm still trying to decide what to do with the 12" high stack of stuff I printed out over the months... and months... and months... when I was in save-my-marriage mode.

But ANYway... I've been forcing myself to "sorta" read this one book, because it's about some things that I believe I may have experienced in my M, for a long time... and for ME... I want to try to understand not only my role in the demise of the whole thing, but what impact all those years in that R has had on me.

I'll stop rambling in a second... maybe <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />... what caught my eye about what I quoted from the book -- it was describing narcissism in the context of this "emotional rape" concept, and then it was trying to describe/rationalize/justify some of its theories -- and it was basically saying: for this "emotional rape" to occur, malignant narcissism is right up there on the list of the conditions which are most probably there in the R.

And then it goes on to suggest that, in a roundabout way, malignant narcissim = evil. In a PASSIVE way.

Is my VSTBXWWW evil? I don't think so.
Did she ACT evil thru this mess? Yes, she did -- mostly BEFORE I got here back in November(?)
I've never described the things she did, and said... for nearly eight months before "arriving" here. But I have said (2,326 times) that it was H e l l.

What I found interesting was that this particular description of "evil" fit the bill. One doesn't have to TRY to hurt, inflict damage, "be evil" -- but that doesn't mean, by this definition, that they're not.

I agree with you. At the same time, that's part of the definition of Narcissism.

Again, I agree. True Narcissists ALSO lack a healthy spirit and conscience. And if you remember me mentioning my "mini-epiphany" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> -- that's what it was: I realized that, with regard to VSTBXWWW's behavior and words, the only thing that made sense was she did/does NOT feel the same emotions-- therefore the first "W" "in WWW."

Yes, and... sadly... I believe she "inherited" that in a way, and it was exacerbated by her parents/family environment/etc.

Spidey... help me out here... you're talking about... ?? Nah, couldn't be....
Huh???

I will cease and desist from taking up more time/space discussing VSTBXWWW. After all, this is a marriage-building place, and uhhh........... my M has no business being here anymore....


Change of subject.

About my trip... I honestly have tried at least 6 times to explain, and I've failed each time. Too wordy, too long, too... THOROUGH.

I'll eliminate the details, and shoot for the moral of the story:

The objective of my trip was to scope out investment/waterfront/vacation property (and find our party spot, of course!).
(You may remember me talking about such things....)

I left there with a more important lesson -- a reminder -- having nothing to do with $, or investments, or vacations.
And THAT made it all worthwhile. I'm SO glad I went.

When I arrived on this island of a still Very-3rd-World country, I was NOT liked, NOT trusted, and spoke a different language... so most of them would've preferred that I just go away.
I checked in to my room (it was actually a little restaurant, and they had a few rooms to rent), and was thinking "WTH am I DOING here?!?"

Fast-forward to five days later...

The last night, I was sorta hanging around this place (I really couldn't go anywhere else after dark), and I started saying goodbye to the ladies -- yes, other than the owner, they were all female -- don't ask me(?).
They didn't know I was leaving at the crack of dawn the next morning. I actually didn't feel safe enough to tell anyone of my plans for ANYthing.

So, what happened? They all started asking me when I'd be coming back... one asked me if I was married (Ha!)... and another one had tears in her eyes... yikes...

And I was pretty choked up, to be honest. Because when I got there, I wanted to leave on the next plane (OR boat!). And until I was saying goodbye, I had NO idea to what degree I had befriended these people.

And then I went back to my room, and started thinking about it, wondering what it was that changed from Day 1 to Day 5. What did I do to deserve all this? All I did was try to get to know them, and show an interest in their lives, and treat them with respect, and be their friend.

The lesson I was reminded of was... no matter who we are, where we live, whether we live in miserable poverty or with conspicuous wealth... we all need the same things. We need to feel important, and respected, and liked. We need to feel that someone finds us worthy. We need to feel that someone is interested in us -- for who we are.

It was all pretty cool <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Sorry for the sappy stuff!

Spidey, them weren't kind words, them were fact, as far as I'm concerned!
Have you forgotten that you can run 13 miles and still walk? Meaning... have you no clue how IN shape you are??

So... here's how my mind works... and I'll think out loud...

Hmmm... Spidey is in better shape than 99.x% of the population. Yet, Spidey is concerned about her weight.
MUST be that Spidey's weight concern is one of those appearance/cosmetic/aesthetic/too-many-emaciated-models-on-TV things. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And, not only THAT, but you KNOW that because of your knee (NOT because of YOU), you're not able to get the calories burned off by running your leisurely thousand (or so) miles a week that you have been running.
Don't be so hard on yourself.

And how could you be, having never experienced it before?

Be patient... I know it's frustrating-as-all-he||, but you know that you HAVE to be patient. Mind over matter. And in this case, it means not letting this get you down.

Ok, FOR example... I'm sure you know that, pound for pound, maintaining muscle mass expends more calories than fat. So... my thought... while you're getting your knee healed, slowly but surely, work on strength conditioning (ie. building muscle) on everything except your knee, which means upper body (and the PT could show you how to isolate, for example, calves, without interfering with the knee, so as not to neglect legs altogether). So what happens? You build muscle, and burn more calories. Even at rest. Even while you're plugged into your 'puter <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
10 pounds?? You may not lose 'em, because you'll be gaining muscle... but you'll be losing fat, too.

I know it's a touchy subject, Spidey, and for that reason alone, I appreciate you asking. I really do.
From what she wrote a couple days ago, it appears she's even further OUT of her M than I thought she was. And that was in response to me -- AGAIN -- suggesting that it would be better, even EASIER (maybe I lied to her?) to try to get her M back on track and SAVE it, than to end it.
And yes, everything's still on the up-and-up. Is it on the "up-and-up" if she shares these things with me -- that she's DONE??
IF she leaves her M... I don't know... I honestly don't know. Sometimes it all feels kinda surreal, and other times I'm just thankful that I'm in a position to try to help her through whatever it is she's about to go through. Because like you said, she does seem to be very stuck.

I think she does realize, to an appreciable degree, how long and how much she's been stuck. At the same time, I also get the impression that, just like you said, she downplays it to herself. As if she does know how stuck she is, but can't arrive at a solution, so on a day-to-day basis, she downplays it... the alternative is even more misery.

Sometimes I think I've spent too much of my life dealing with, in one way or another, relationships-on-the-rocks...

Spidey, I'd better stop rambling before we get to Page 51. But I do want to say a couple things about this HSS thing... because I know how you feel about it.
I'm aware of my neediness and loneliness right now. (Neediness of all shapes and colors.... believe me)
And, I think that that awareness, that comes from a huge amount of ongoing introspection and a desire to make Life #2 more successful than Life #1 (relationship-wise, and everything else), is going to help me deal with this HSS thing in a healthy way -- for me -- and at the same time be there for her in whatever way I can be. Do you understand what I'm trying to say?

Oooooh. Well, that does sound a lot different than just the snippet I read earlier. Taken out of context, that book can be taken several different ways! But the way you described it makes sense, and now I know what you are talking about.

Yep, I was very immature for a long time, and during H's A I was forced to grow up. If I hadn't chosen the hard (yet rewarding!) path of maturity all those months ago, I would be a wreck right now. Well, I kind-of am a wreck right now, but in a different, I think "growing" way. I am still finding my way, and that is OK.


You know that is not true! This site is for more than just Marriage Building, because if only 1/2 of a M wants to build, it cannot work. This place is for the support of those who wish to rebuild their M ~ therefore, it is also the place for support of those who must move in another direction because of unwilling partners.

Your R with your VSTBXWWW should be part of our discussions for a long time after the D is final. This is a place for you to heal ~ that means reminiscing, venting, questioning, remembering ~ and this is your safe place to do all those things. Nobody will understand your process better than those here who have lived it (which I haven't, so you might need a new adviser/counselor soon!). My point is, your discussion of anything here concerning her is totally legit.


Wow, that is a very powerful reminder. I have heard Oprah say on several occassions, that with all the different people she has interviewed over the years, no matter how different people seem, we all want the same things. And you made a very good list of those things.

You know, a lot more is going on with me than just the hurt knee and weight gain. I think it is tied to my wanting to contact the FOW the other day, too. I think I am lonely in my life. My H works a LOT, goes to school. I have one good girlfriend, but she is single, lives across town, and is sometimes an energy drain on me because of her own emotional baggage that she still carries around. And, let's face it, I am pretty sure I have major issues about having a good girl friend again ~ for very obvious reasons.

Then I get into a very bad place and want to blame my H for my lack of close friendships, my lack of emotional intimacy with anyone besides him ~ and he has barely any time for that. I joined that running group hoping to make new friends, but I didn't really. I don't even think I miss my FBF ~ I think I miss having a girlfriend I can chat with all day. She was always available because of her home-based daycare business (available to EVERYone, unfortunately <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />). She probably wasn't even a great friend, but she was there. Does that make sense?


Well, that, and the fact that only one pair of my pants goes on now! Yikes. I can't walk around nekked, for Heaven's sake. And I REFUSE to buy bigger clothes. Period. So don't even suggest that. It is my way of not gaining back the 100+ pounds I have worked off over the years. I have about a 10 pound window, and even the deepest mental denial cannot avoid realizing my pants are too tight.

BUT, you are right. At least I have gained the weight OVER the in-shape part of me. Last time I spiked up this high, at Christmas last year, I hadn't worked out in months and it was ALL fat. This time, I truly "only" have about 10 pounds of fat to lose. So, I haven't totally fallen off the fitness path.


You know, I cannot tell you how GRATEFUL I am that you keep refocusing me on this idea. I know you are right! Thank you for not letting my lack of response immediately to this notion deter you from gently placing it in front of me as a viable alternative whenever I get to whining about my knee. I truly appreciate it. Don't stop! I was going to begin last night, before yoga, but I was derailed by a couple pretty big anxiety attacks at my last job yesterday. They were the weirdest things! I haven't felt like that since the early days after H left me. I actually didn't even finish the job yesterday. I'm going back this morning to finish the upstairs. BUT, I plan on running a bit this morning before that, and I did my pilates the other night. AND I am eating lots of fruits and veggies. AND watching my portions. My scale has stabilized, and I expect it to start going down soon. *phew* So I can fit into more pants soon. *phew*


I do, because I remember when Shattered Dreams was concerned with us communicating off the boards. And I understood what he was saying, and I was very flattered that he cared enough about us both to say something. But because of all the reasons you wrote above, I felt the same about myself, and I felt that I could maintain a healthy R ~ and that you could as well ~ even if our convo's were not privy to the other 30,000+ members here. Because of everything I've learned here, I make a very conscious effort that when circumstances dictate we should discuss something off the boards, even if we later paste it on here, that what I say to you in private would not make my face turn red here on the forum.

IOW, do not do or say anything that I wouldn't want plastered over the front page of the newspaper in the morning. I think that is a very healthy way to live life in general. And, when you tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said. My MIL has that poster that I laminated for her, in her classroom. My boys and I really like it.

Well, I gotta get off here and get my busy, hopefully-anxiety-attack-free-day, started. I also have to see a friend who had her gallbladder out yesterday, and my Mom has an appointment today. And H has class tonight. Sheesh.

Chat at you later, friend.

Spidey