I just lost my VERY LONG post!!! Grrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!

I'll have to recreate after my step and yoga tonight.

GRRRRRRR!!!!!! Damn my flying fingers!

Spidey, I HATE when you do that. For you, AND for me.
Well... I'm sorry... I know that's hugely frustrating! (Thank you, though)

I'm still sorta reeling from that stupid 8-second phone call, and still not happy with myself, but...

I flip around from feeling bad about doing something that probably hurt her, to thinking things like... what has she done in the last X YEARS to "deserve" an ounce of respect? Why am I bashing myself for hanging up on her, when I still have HER phone conversations with OM -- and the disgusting, painful crap that I heard -- in the forefront of my brain, and still think about every day?? (maybe "almost every day" is more accurate at this point, but I'm not really sure)

I've settled on this... what I'm most angry about right now is that she left so much destruction in her wake, and caused so much pain, and... blah blah blah... that now I find myself hanging up on the person I loved and adored for 24 years. It's just NOT me to do that to anyone -- yet, it was my gut/instinctive/natural reaction this morning.

Translated: lots of resentment and anger buried just below the surface(?)

I feel like I should be beyond that by now, and want to be. But then again, I remind myself that she's still my "wife" -- why, I don't know, but -- and maybe I still have a long way to go.

and... a double-whammy today.

Got home to find a message from her doctor's office, for her, asking her to call them.
Why they don't have her new phone#, who knows, but a couple fleeting thoughts went thru my mind -- is she sick? Is she ok?
So I sent her an email, passing on the message. And it felt very strange.

Such small stuff, I know, but...

unfortunately, methinks I still love her. Or something. And I don't want to anymore.

Maybe I'm just feeling sorry for her, for what she's done to herself, to us, and I still can't find a reason for it(?) Or am I just feeling sorry for myself? Both?

I'm so sorry I lost that darn post, and then have been so late on trying to recap. Reposting is just so MONOtonous. It feels silly to type the exact same thing over and over. Oh well.

Basically, I thought it was good for you to hang up on her. I think it sends a clear message to her that you feel she is not being careful with your feelings, and that you deserve better treatment. I think it shows a lot where your self-esteem has gotten to in your personal healing.

I think when we stand up for ourselves, sometimes it doesn't look very pretty. But with more practice, I think you will be able to protect yourself without doing/saying something that you don't know is appropriate. Does that make sense?

My kitty thinks she is so sly. I asked her if she was licking the little bit of baking butter I left on the counter (she is not allowed on the counter, let alone eating people food!) this morning. She is looking at me with that cool and collected face that all cats have, with her eyes half closed, like, "Of course not, what on earth are you talking about?"

But, she has butter caught in her very long whiskers, and on the fur on one side of her face ~ the side I'm sure she forgot to clean. Reminds me of when I used to ask my young boys if they had been into the Oreos, and they would be all wide-eyed and innocent ~ but they had a ring of black Oreo crust all around their mouths and in their teeth.

*sigh*


Yeah. I just don't think love has a lightswitch-type circuit that can just be switched on or off.

I told you that two sets of our friends down her were affected by infidelity, didn't I? One set is about where you are, his WW has done most of the paperwork, but there is nothing official. And the other's WW D'd him right away. He tried MC with mine and H's MC, but she was not interested at all. She was having an A with her HSS. Said the M had been over for years, hadn't loved him for the last half of the M, etc. Well, they have their first MC appointment tomorrow for reconcilliation. Out of the blue, she started calling the BH and she broke up with OM and he broke up with his GF and now they are dating again.

Even 2 months ago, he said it wouldn't be possible, even if she wanted to reconcile, because he could never trust her again. And to be honest, I don't know if they'll make it (if I did, I'd probably have my own show ~ psychic!). But even though he felt it was over, done, dead ~ he is still willing to try.

I think it is OK to not know exactly where you are with your feelings right now.

So, are things progressing with your HSS? Or, what I mean is, are things progressing with her D?

Chat at you later. I'm off to deliver goodies to my clients!

Spidey

I would say your reaction is perfectly normal. You seemed to be in shock to hear her voice and she obviously wasn't listening anyway. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Sorry you even had to go through that. Don't beat yourself up.

Oh and yeah, like many WS they think you can all be happy as "friends" after the D. ugh!

Thanks Faithful, and thanks Spidey.
A little "validation" goes a long way in this business... I needed that.

More in a little while, but first....

Just opened up two pieces of mail I got today.

One is from VVVVSTBXWWW, which includes:

2 really nice-looking official documents, the gist of which are... "I consent to the entry of a final decree of divorce."

An envelope that she pre-addressed to her lawyer (she didn't want me to be inconvenienced by this whole thing). She forgot the stamp, though.

A little post-it note, on which she wrote:
"For signature and return to attorney for filing. Should be filed and completed before 12/31/05, so all taxes can be individual."

She's got a heart of gold.

So, not to be melodramatic or anything, but right here/right now seems like an appropriate place and time to put my signature on a couple pieces of paper... (be right back)

It's a Done Deal... do I celebrate now, or what?
Yes... time for a beer (be right back) (and don't worry, Spidey, it's low-carb, and only 12 calories, give or take 80 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />)

And whaddyaknow, a song that always made me think of who-is-now-my VVVVVVVVVSTBXWWW just came on...
so for posterity's sake, I'll find the lyrics..........


I gave my word, I made a promise
And I'm gonna keep it til the end
What would I do, if I lost it
There's nothing better than what we have

Somehow in my mind
Always new I'd find my

Beautiful one, Beautiful child, my everything
Beautiful one, Beautiful child

So much you give so much to live for
And I wanna give it all back to you
And If it means pouring my heart out
to show you I love you, then I will

Beautiful one, Beautiful child, my everything
Beautiful one, Beautiful child

To be the one to call you mine
To feel the way I do inside
You're so much more than I ever dreamed
This is forever I believe


Oh well.

The OTHER piece of mail I got today was a Christmas card from her brother and his wife.
Wow... they were my family for 24 years, too.
It said:
"We think of you often and miss you. May 2006 bring you peace and happiness - if you are in ____ over the holidays please call us.
Love,
BIL/SIL"

This whole thing is still, at times, so damn surreal.
It ain't My Life, it's someone else's... right?

tqt,

Have you considered clicking your heels three times?

I know...I give horrible advice and watch too many movies.

Exiting now,

Froz

Wow. It's been a long journey. Thanks for sharing that with us, and I am serious. How is all of this making you feel? What is coming up for you?


A real Peach! I was thinking that this quote, and the one about forgetting the stamp, really go together. Like she's almost there . . . but not quite.


First, I LOVE Frozen's post ~ I know many times that summed up what I was feeling. That, or the fact that I somehow got lost in a wierd version of "The Twilight Zone." The one episode I still remember is the boy who didn't want his family talking, so he took away their mouths. Still creeps me out.

As for your song ~ a real tear-jerker. When I was so raw, it seemed like each song on the radio was about breaking up or falling in love. One safe song ~ "Walk Like an Egyptian" by The Bangles. That song is about absolutely nothing, and has a catchy tune.

I was also realizing the other day how wrong some songs are. Like the new one by Kelly Clarkston, where she says, "Because of you I never play too far from the sidewalk, because of you I always play on the safe side so I won't get hurt ~ because of you I am afraid."

And I realized, I guess we all feel like that from time to time, but the only one who can create fear in us is US. But I think songs and our culture perpetuate us to blame our feelings, both positive and negative, on other people. Yes, I feel fear in my life regarding my M and girl friends that I don't remember feeling before ~ well, that's not true. I have always been fearful in my M for one reason or another. Either that H would leave me or die. And look ~ that is what was created in my life.

But I can't blame H for my fear of having close girl friends. Well, I could. But that gives all my power away. I am then dependent on HIM to make it right somehow, and he can never do that. My fear stems from a belief inside of me, a place he cannot affect change.

But ANYway. I am very pleased that you have been able to take this next step ~ Finally. I hope you can spot the stamp for her. You didn't talk about HSS ~ do you have an update for us?

Spidey

First things first...
How's the treadmill going, Spidey? Getting used to it, I bet? :-)

And another question you've asked, one of many that I've left unanswered (which I feel bad about)...
For Christmas this year... I'm going out to Denver to spend Christmas with my brother and his wife and their two little boys (1 and 4? yrs). AS are my parents, and my other brother and his wife, and his son.

A new experience for everyone, since we've pretty much always spent Christmas at "home" with my parent's.

Ahhh... sounds ok, right?

Ugh. I'm not supposed to be 46 years old (man, that sounds old, and I don't feel anywhere close to that) and "tagging along" and showing up at Christmas as a single, my-wife-left-me-and-this-all-sucks person.

I have a good feeling for what this season is supposed to be about, and I have good memories of things that lead me to believe I always had an appreciation for it. In some ways, that makes this whole ordeal more depressing. Adultery and Christmas don't sit well together, by any stretch of the imagination.

Speaking of... Wow... it was "just" a few hundred days ago that I was on some other planet, in tons and tons of pain, right here, and you were helping me through it all. And checking in on me every day, even on Christmas morning. And I remember.. VERY well... how much that meant to me. :-)

Anyway, back to the here and now... it'll be, ummm... "OK" to be out in Denver with most of my family (missing my Sister/her family - he can't get out of work). Tainted in many ways, though.

Actually, I'm dreading it Big-Time :|

One reason being the fact that I can't wait 'til this most-wonderful-time-of-year is over and done with, for obvious reasons, and the other being the fact that my oldest brother's marriage was... how do you say it(?)... Affair-Induced.
And his wife (at one time the OW) and I -- with or without the A business -- ummm, don't get along.
Can I say... not my fault <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

A couple perhaps-interesting little factoids here, and I'll stop rambling about it...

When the, uhh... "aforementioned affair" became known to the rest of the family (it was about 13 years ago) -- my VSTBXWWW worked overtime to express to me her feelings of disgust and hatred and... blah blah..... I'll never forget it... I'll never forget the words she used to describe this "other woman" -- before/during/after she became our SIL -- because this OW broke up a family. Two little kids were left in the dust.

Of course, my VSTBXWWW hated this OW, I suppose rightfully so, because her own family was broken apart by adultery when she was a young teenager.

Fast-forward about 8? years... my VSTBXWWW became the Other Woman who helped break up a family, leaving a 14-year-old boy in the dust.

Fast-forward a couple years... Christmas in Denver with the remains of broken families....... most importantly, missing one now 23-year-old really sweet young lady, the little girl that my brother and his affair left in the dust 13 years ago. Just a couple days ago, she was diagnosed as being Clinically Depressed.

Yeah, I know in my gut and in my heart, it's part of the same sad story that keeps going on and on and on....


Froz... any idea how much easier it would've been if you suggested I try that BEFORE the lobotomy?
And get this... NOW they're saying my insurance does NOT cover it!



Ummm... tired fingers? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As much as I love to ramble/spill my guts... I'll save the rest of my rambling/spilling for tomorrow.


ps. My curiosity got the best of me, and I started reading some stuff from 12/17/04...

Yikes!

I've never done that before, because I just don't want to go back there... maybe someday I'll be ok with it.

Sorry my advice reached you post-lobotomy. Unfortunately, my own procedure prevented me from reaching out to you sooner.

Sorry about the insurance thing, too.



I know just what you mean. I mentioned to Patriot the other day how much I hate to go back and read old posts because they sound so different, or even worse - they may not sound so very different at all.

Wow, tqt, what a post! Perhaps you mentioned to me before about the brother-A-OW-daughter stuff before, but my eyes were bugging out at reading it this time around. Holy crap. A very familiar story, the (F?)WW of our friend here, that got the D because she was having the A with the HSS ~ well, when she heard that my H was having his A, she was very angry. She talked to me quite a bit about it, saying that it was her worst fear that her H would do that to her, because her father had done it to her mother, blah blah blah. She was very vocal to H's friend about her feelings about him and his actions, etc.

Then she went and did the same thing, with 2 little ones herself! H's friend and I have talked about that so much, because she told him stuff about her feelings toward H that she didn't share with me, and it sounds like her comments were much like your VSTBXWWW's about this OW. And how many times I've read this same thing from BS's everywhere ~ that they never thought their spouse would have an A, because it had happened in their family as a kid, and broke their hearts. But then they create it in their own lives!

Maybe it goes to the argument that thoughts are things, and whatever we think about, we create. Even if we think, "At all costs, this is what I DON'T want to create," maybe the Universe only understands the thought, not the DON'T. So instead of focusing our attentions on everything we DON'T want, we should focus solely on what we DO want.

I also heard recently on a TV show (Starting Over, I love it!) that fear is misdirected attention ~ Fear is focusing on what you DON'T want to happen. I thought that was very interesting.

Christmas in Denver will at least be a unique experience, though. I know it might be difficult to be so close to something that is very painful to you, but I also believe that the Universe takes care of itself, and that your brother and his W have what they have, and it all works out in the end ~ with no help from us mortals. There is a difference between condoning, and not judging, IMO, although I have seen this opinion be very vast and different on the boards. Which is OK, because it is good that we don't all agree on the same stuff, and that different POV's are expressed.

ANYway, I best get back to my business today. I have to make up a menu for a job tomorrow, get my baking in order for the holidays, and get my mother for dinner. I haven't seen her in 2 or 3 weeks, since I've been sick. Sheesh! Haven't been a very good daughter lately. So I best be off doing that.

Spidey

Spidey, my question is: Why can't you blame your H for your fear of having close girlfriends?
I'm struggling with this Can't-Blame-Anyone-Ever-for-Anything Thing.
The fact that he can't fix it all -- and that you need to dig down deep and all by yourself overcome that fear -- does that preclude the fact that he's mostly (at least) responsible for the fear in the first place? Did you have a fear of having close girlfriends before this all happened?

That is a very good question. Spidey, I think at some point you are going to need to learn to trust that not ALL women will have A's with your H. OR better yet, trust that your H won't do that again.

If I blame someone else for my feelings, I am reliant upon that person to "fix" my feelings. If I own my feelings, I know I can change them myself. I don't "need" anyone else to do it for me. It is very dangerous, IMO, to rely on others to fix feelings.


While it is true that all of my past history plays a part in why I create my feelings, I still have a choice about whether to feel that way or not ~ especially since I understand that fear and anger are the ways I cover my more vulnerable emotions ~ like lonliness, abandonment.


No, but I have always had a fear of losing him ~ death, another woman, I even went through a period of time (I had just had my second baby in 2 years, and I had hardly any sleep, and Oprah did an episode that freaked me out) when I thought I could lose him to another man! You name it, I've had a fear about it. I now have a bunch of evidence I can point to in order to justify my fear of losing H, but the fear itself is an old partner I have had since I was a little girl. I grew up with a mother who married 5 times, I think all of her relationships were with abusers/adulterers/liars. From the time I can remember, I would lay awake at night and ask God to please not take my mother away, or let her get sick, because if she wasn't in my life I was convinced I would die. Well, she did get sick, and drifted from me. And that is when I met H. And he became for me the same thing my mother had been ~ what I felt at the time my liferaft, without which I honestly felt I would die. And then he left me. I cannot tell you how traumatizing that was for me. Because I didn't just face my future without him, I faced my future without anyone to save me and keep me safe besides ME. For a long time that was terrifying for me. But once I realized what a great, strong, wonderful, smart, problem-solver I am, it became a challenge I knew I that I was up for.

So I know that I can solve this friend issue myself, I just haven't figured it out yet. But realizing that it feels like a hole in my life, and realizing that it is something I want to change, is my first step. I don't know what the second step is yet, but I think when I am open to it, it will become clear to me.

Spidey

Exactly. I dont' know if H and I will be together until we die, because my crystal ball got cracked, but I do know that where we go from here we go with openess, honesty, and love for each other. Hopefully, those will be the necessary ingredients for our recipe of M.

I cannot go through my life policing myself, my H, and/or everyone else around me. I cannot mind read, I cannot guess or know unspoken intentions. All I can count on is that if either my H or myself feel something new, that we will share it openly and honestly with each other, and see where that leads us.

Faithful, again I thank you for lending your time and typing fingers to this thread. The only thing I like as much as getting replies from tqt is getting them from others here! I love all attention! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Spidey

YOU are worth it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I have enjoyed this conversation between you two for quite a while, btw. You both are very interesting people.

I agree with you 100%.

I KNEW I was getting myself into trouble with that post. Actually, I wasn't happy with the way I worded it, but decided to let it lie as-is.

But.


Don't you think you can "blame" someone/something else (your life experience, in other words) for the way you feel about something, but also rely on yourself to "fix it?"

Maybe "blame" isn't the right word.

I respectfully disagree.

That event in your life caused you to react, and your reaction is to not trust other women. (I know
that's not well said)
That's Human Nature at its finest, Spidey. That's the exact same thing as, ummm....

You were viciously attacked by a Giant Wildebeest (ok, stay with me on this <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), and now you're afraid of Giant Wildebeests. Would you blame yourself for having that fear?

ALL I was trying to say was... don't be so hard on yourself!
Accept the fact that what happened has caused you to feel this way, and... you SHOULD feel this way.
You have a "right" to feel this way... right? How you feel about it -- it's not a bad thing. It's recognizing the facts, which is what you have to do to accept that facts, which is what you have to do to forgive -- forgive your H, and most importantly, yourself.

I'm done with the Wildebeests now... thanks for listening :-)

ps. yes, I can act like an idiot when need be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

pps. Spidey, remember the old adage -- "It wasn't about you?"

Phew!
Thank G*d!
Yes, thank you. That is so true.

OK, so, are you ready to have your world rocked? Well, my H has decided that he is polyamorous. And he told a co-worker that he is, and that he has feelings for her. He said he didn't know what kind of feelings they were, but . . .

So, there was a big argument when he told me about the polyamory thing (again), and another big argument when he talked to this woman (he thought I had agreed to it ~ the drawback about making agreements at 3 am).

I asked him to leave yesterday, then agreed to him staying until after we see our old MC on Tuesday afternoon.

Wow. Isn't that a lot of sh*t to have going on at the holidays!?!

We have made a couple of agreements in the meantime. First, we will not argue/shout/yell in front of our kids. Unfortunately, we have done waaaay too much of that these past 2 years. They do not need to know any of this. It is an adult matter, to be handled by us adults. We are going to so whatever we do (stay together, separate, D) with love and compassion and friendship. This will be done for the betterment/wellbeing of our kids.

Second, we are going to negotiate all our issues in MC for as long as it takes.

Third, we are not going to bankrupt ourselves with making emotional decisions. I am going to withdraw from my classes, work full time, and we are going to focus on making ourselves financially available to stay together/separate/D.

He feels/believes the way he does, I feel/believe the way I do. We have to see what that is going to look like. For now, we are enjoying our time off with each other and the kids. I am taking it day-by-day.

I'm good with it all right now. I go through periods of extreme sadness and anger, but I am handling it. My Infidelity Diet has come back with a vengence, 3.5 pounds in 2 days, but I am still taking care of myself.

All-in-all, I am relieved. Something had to change. I don't know what that change will be, but change is a'comin.

I don't even know if you have internet where you are, or if you are even in Colorado yet. I hope you have the Merriest of Christmas's. I hope we all do.

Spidey

Oh Spidey, I am so sorry. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Do you think possibly that this woman he spoke to was the reason for him saying he believes in polyamory? It just so screams of entitlement to me, Spidey and too much of a coincidence too.

I could be wrong...you know your H and I don't. I just think there are those that had A's once and learn from it and those that the tendancy is a character flaw. My H had two A's and has recently learned and admitted that the high of the feelings he got from the A was the attraction. He seems to finally be seeing the OP's for who they really are and seeing that affairs are NOT the answer to his unhappiness. Lying has become second nature to him and he is just now trying to overcome that in his life.

I also had a thought Spidey, that your H's IC is not good for him. Would he be willing to counsel with Harley a couple times? I understand and admire your choice to wait until the holidays are over but please don't give him the idea that this "lifestyle" is acceptable to you. {{{spider slayer}}}