YEAH!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Having a career to fall back on was what helped me the most in the last two years. No matter what happens, promise us you will follow through on your dreams.

If I don't pop back in again, HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />Thank you, believer. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Spidey - I always follow your thread, but don't pop in too often. My prayers are with you.

Hey...

Just opened a piece of mail. I'm divorced. Two days ago, actually.

That wasn't so bad, was it?

And think of how many keystrokes we can save by typing "XW" instead "VVVSTBXWWW."

Hmmm... I really wasn't thinking about this, or how I'd react to it, but I know I wasn't expecting the memories and images of 24 years of our lives together to go flashing by in fast motion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Kinda weird.

But, I think what's disturbing me the most is the "bad stuff" I'm feeling about her right now.
I don't feel good about myself for... for example... if I could find the right website, I'd buy her a first-class ticket to He11 (I do need the miles, though).
Or maybe forget that, and just hope that what she did haunts her for the rest of her life.

Trying to figure out where all that is coming from... and I think it's not the fact that she destroyed everything, maybe not even the betrayal/adultery/sleazy crap that she engaged in with another man. I think what's sticking with me more than anything is the extreme hatefulness and cruelty -- that magically appeared right after D-Day -- and continued for months and months and months afterwards. (Before I found this place.)

I'll go to my grave knowing that she knew she made a terrible mistake (I found notes she had written to herself that said just that). And I forgave her.
But she chose to handle it all by doing her best to try to destroy me, with her cruel and hateful actions and words. I think it made it easier for her somehow... if she treated me like a piece of sh|t, it was easier for her to convince herself that I was just that, and therefore what she did was justified.

She demonstrated the lowest of lows, as far as how one human can treat another, stopping short of putting a knife in my gut -- pretty much the only thing she didn't do.

Hearing just bits and pieces of the situation, a MC, a psychiatrist, and a psychologist specializing in certain types of character disorders -- they all said they same thing: "let her go... get away from her fast... she'll never change." But I hung in there.

I forgave her for a lot of things, and tried really hard to save my marriage (this was all before I got here, Spidey, and enacted Plan F :-)) But I will never forgive her for trying to destroy me after D-Day (discovering the A did enough damage, thank you).

I'm most angry with myself, for allowing her to do such a number on me.

On the plus side, I've learned that if I ever fall in love again and have an opportunity to choose a partner in my life -- I should be careful before making a commitment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

And Spidey... since it's all over now, I want to say again: Thanks. You were awesome through it all :-)


So, what time does the band start?

{{{{tqt}}}} A terrible way to learn isn't it? I am sorry for your pain but am hopeful for you having a wonderful future with a woman deserving of a good man like you.

Wow. What happened to our big finish???


Um, that is what the doctor says after he sticks me with a painful needle. So, I am assuming you mean that rhetorically, and with a bit of sarcasm. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Just as my doctor does!



Now THAT is worth SOMEthing.


Yikes! I didn't know you had that kind of speak in you, tqt! I think it is natural, though. My friend whose WW D'd him here went through those same emotions, and he is a lot like you as far as his beliefs and character. It often surprised me the stuff he would say out of anger, but I think it is something he had to go through. IOW, don't beat yourself up for it ~ I think it is pretty "normal."


Yeah, that sounds familiar . . . hm, where have I heard that lately . . . ? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />


AMEN! Me too.


This really stuck out at me this morning when I read it. I am worried that if I stick this out with my H, and I don't get the payoff I am hoping for, that I will hate him. I am beginning to think that I might be better off making my decision now, based on what I know now.

Last night, I started thinking about my sitch in this way (sorry to rant on about myself ~ again): I had a couple Deal Breakers ~ 1)Polyamory, 2)In-love feelings for FOW. In October H came home and told me that he was currently feeling both those things. I got upset, enforced my boundary, apparently H chickened out and changed his story.

Fast forward to a couple weeks ago ~ H comes home and tells me 1)Polyamory (again), 2)In love feelings for FOW, AND 3)In love feelings for female co-worker that we had had many discussions about when we reconciled, and he agreed to keep certain boundaries to protect our M ~ that apparently he didn't/couldn't/wouldn't enforce.

Sounds to me like someone is trying to tell someone else in a round-about way that maybe they don't want to be in the M anymore. Why else do you latch on to not one, not two, but then create yet ONE MORE Deal Breaker and try and stay in the M? Last night I told him that looking at it all that way, maybe this is his passive/aggressive way of getting out of the M.

I don't know. We'll talk to the MC on Tuesday, and I will tell him that I am having a hard time holding a supportive space, and that it might be best if H and I go our separate ways before I end up wanting to buy him a ticket to he!!.


And I will say again, You are Welcome. Since it's all over now, are you going to go away? Or will you still grace us all with your presence? I hope you are not going to go away. It would be pretty silly to continue a thread without the originator stopping in every once in a while.

Big {{{{{{{{{{tqt}}}}}}}}}} for you. I know you are going to be just fine. Everything happens for a reason, and I have every confidence that you are going to find someone GREAT to share your life with.

How are your dogs, BTW? We used to talk about them, but not so much lately. We are contemplating when/if/how to put our almost 16 year old dog down. My H and got him from the pound in 1990, about 6 months after we began living together. I was 17, he was 19. Weird.

Chat at you later. Take care.

Spidey

Thanks for the nice words, Faithful :-)


Yep.
I do, still, spend some time trying to find that bottom line as far as what all this means. It's human nature, I guess, to try to deduce things down to some manageable, understandable, neatly-packaged little thing.

Not sure how to say this well, but it makes me need to conjure up and execute/realize something that makes this whole thing pale in comparison. IOW, given a choice, I would've chosen something else to be that One Big Event in my life.


We're taking the scenic route, Spidey. It goes on, and on, and on...
Besides, this is The Beginning.... YOU know that.


huh? Oh, that.
Well, my mother taught me to be polite in public <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
I can hold my own, otherwise... trust me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />


Not to get serious, but... one of the things she (you know, "she") "did" to me (I allowed her to) was to make me question what "normal" is. I never aspired to be "normal," but... methinks you know what I mean.


I DO get your point, and I understand how you felt that way.
But ya know... here's the difference. I was talking about some people who heard little bits and pieces about her behavior, and they all (very quickly) said the same thing. They didn't know me, they didn't know her, from a hill of beans. (The theme here is Character Disorder. I'm just telling it like it is (was)). They were reacting in rapid-fire, from-a-clinical/textbook mode. What you got here was a rapid-fire, we-know-a-lot-about-your-story/situation-and-we-really-care-about-you reaction.
Both are valuable, and both are highly suspect at the same time... maybe that's why I felt like saying "throw out what doesn't make sense to you."
None of it is very much fun.

Spidey, I quoted that whole thing because I couldn't find a good stopping point!
While not discounting the fact that I might be in left field, I still feel the same way I did before (a few days ago) -- even moreso after reading what you said above.

With the A, your life was turned upside down. And not because of you, but because of all-things-you-couldn't-control, your life has been... devoid of... a piece of solid ground on which to move forward.
You've been trying... rightfully, naturally, deservedly so... to find some kind of foundation, some starting point... and you thought you were pretty much there, in so many ways. Then, your H blew things up again, a couple times.

What you've been deprived of, and need - I want to say "desperately" -- we A L L need. And that's knowing what's what.. what the facts are, a place to hang our hat... a starting point. (And harder still, it's a RE-starting point.)
SO... IMVHO, sometimes it feels better to find that point, at all costs. And maybe that's not where you want to be, in spite of how much better it feels right now.

My gibberish is trying to say... stay tough a little longer, take a step back, and give yourself some more time to figure out what all this means to you.


:-) I can't think about them. Haven't seen them in over a year.
They were (are, I'd guess) really cool :-), really smart, really loving... I miss them.
I've had dogs on and off throughout my life, but I never "bonded" with one like I did with one of them. She's an awesome dog, with a huge heart. We had lots of fun together!
(Australian Shepards, and we felt so bad for the first one being lonely during the day, so we got another one, and they were just by chance half-sisters).
Yikes... thinking about them just now made my eyes water! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Perhaps a stupid and/or unfair question, but do you know if he's in pain?
The "quality of life" thing, I think. It's really hard... I know that. Dogs are so !@#!%$# innocent and dedicated and loving, with no strings attached... it only makes it so much harder.

"No man should be given a marriage license until he's 40." -- John Mellencamp

Ain't that the truth.

ps. Happy New Year... yes?

I had to quote the whole thing because I couldn't find a good stopping point! Yep, you hit the nails on the heads. Each and every one of them.

I don't know what I'm doing, what is going on today. I stayed up last night reading some polyamory stuff (actually, this morning, 4 am), and I just don't get where my H thinks this could ever work between us ~ if that is what he is really thinking. I wish he would just remember how miserable he was without me and the boys, and trust that his feelings then didn't lead him down the wrong road. At some point, I guess decisions should be made and trusted, even when you come to a place down the road where you can't remember why you made those decisions. Am I making sense on my 4 hours of sleep?


I know this is where you were coming from. I was teasing. But a lot of my friends here have reservations, too. They are very concerned about me getting hurt. And I should take their concerns into consideration, just as I do all here, because those concerns represent real dangers. I do always want to give someone a second (third, fourth, . . . ) chance. It is in my nature, and it has burned me in the past.


Sorry to bring that painful subject up. For some reason, I thought she used to come and visit them at your house. But that was when she wanted you to "dog sit."


Well, he has a skin condition that causes his body to create new skin cells every 7 days ~ instead of the normal 20+ days. He gets itchy build-ups, very quickly, then licks and bites and scratches them until they bleed sometimes. Bathing him is becoming harder and more traumatizing for him, lifting him up, and he often cannot stand in the tub and he gets pretty freaked out. Because ideally, he should be bathed with special shampoo each week.

He is becoming increasingly intolerant of the cold weather, and poops in the house almost each day. He'll ask to go out, goes out, starts shivering and immediately wants in. Then as soon as you let him in, poop. Even if you leave him out there shivering for a long time.

He is very bony, even though he eats as much dog food as he used to. His back legs have atrophied so much, with his arthritis in the hips. Often lately, when he wants to lay down on one of his sleeping pads, he just stands there with his legs splayed in an awekward way, then will suddenly just fall on his chin. Like he cannot control his descent.

And, he is getting very strange about food. Like if he gets ahold of something he thinks is food (whether it is people food, or something poisonous he thinks is food!), he will growl and bite at me to keep it. He has also bit three little kids who scared him. They touched him when he was asleep, and he bit them. Not enough to break the skin, but it scared them.

*sigh* Mostly, he just sleeps all day long. But it is becoming especially challenging when we have a lot of people over, and they bring kids. He can't hear or see to get out of people's way, and he gets tripped over a lot ~ even when it is just the family here. So we don't know. It is a struggle.


Yes, Happy New Year. I don't know what it will bring, but here's hoping it is better than some of what we got this past year.

Spidey

That's the only thing you said that I didn't understand. What decisions are you talking about?

That's a virtue. Don't mess with it. :-)

But yeah, that's one of the extra-hard parts, I think. When your true nature - the good things about you -- makes you even more vulnerable to more hurt and pain.

What you said made me think of the whole Self-Doubt thing. That's been huge for me in all this. It's as if all this betrayal, et al... makes you question your own judgement/feelings/etc, about so many things, from so many different angles.


That's ok!
I've trained myself to not think about them. I know it sounds sorta sappy and pathetic, but, I have no children (by her choice, as I've said probably 50 times now)... so when I "lost" the dogs, maybe it was like losing another part of my life that may not have meant so much otherwise.

So, about YOUR dog, Spidey.
That was a hard story to read! :-(
All I can say is, if it were my dog, I think I'd take him to a vet that you trust (meaning, who has a heart... and of course, most do), and talk with him/her about all of it. Maybe you have. I know it would help me put things into perspective, and help me make a decision that was best for the dog... sort of help to filter out some of the emotional parts of it, I guess.
I think your old friend is probably pretty humiliated that he can't be his old self :-( !
It's really hard for everyone, I know!

Spidey, how are YOU doing???

The decisions that he said he had looked inside himself and was being honest with himself and he made regarding when we first got back together again ~ that he didn't believe in polyamory, it was just a justification for the A; and that he didn't have feelings for the FOW anymore.

Now he is saying that he just repressed those feelings because he knew it would be a Deal Breaker for us to reconcile. I say that was misleading me on purpose ~ manipulation. I don't think he did it consciously, but the results are the same ~ I feel lied to and mislead.

I am having a sort-of breakthrough ~ although I have had 4 beers tonight, so I may not feel this way in the morning: The fastest way to change his feelings is to accept them. I tell people to do this all the time, yet when I feel I have something to lose, I don't do it.

Well, it is time for me to "practice what I preach."

I will talk to my vet. That is what I should have done months ago, but I think deep down I am afraid of what he will say ~ because I already know . . .

Spidey

Ms. Slayer....
It's an unwritten rule here... no breakthroughs allowed after 4 beers. (I think 3 is your limit)
Keep your head up, would ya?

You are exactly right! No more beers for a while. Although, my aunt called me last night and we are going to see the Chipendale's Friday night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

This will certainly be a new experience for me.

But seriously, I am keeping my chin up (most of the time), and I know I am going to learn a LOT from all this ~ even if I don't want to.

Spidey

Uhhh.... Yikes, Spidey... too much information!

Hey, this quoting-out-of-context thing can be fun! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

After MC appointment #2, I am officially going to be married for at least 6 more days ~ we made another appointment for Monday.

We are simultaneously exploring why/if H feels the way he does, and why that brings up so much fear inside of me ~ and what my choices are to do with/about that fear.

*sigh*

At least H has school tonight, so he won't be home until late. I am feeling like I am needing lots of space lately.

Spidey

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />
Spidey, this must be so hard on you...........................

Skipping by the "why/if H feels the way he does" part (because I'm biting my tongue),
and onto the "why that brings up so much fear inside of me" part.
I'm shooting from the hip, but... first thought (and 2nd, and 3rd) is...
why would it NOT bring up huge amounts of fear??

I'm absolutely sure it's helpful to talk about it with MC/H, but... the way you describe it, it sounds to me like you're also in the hot seat (who put you there? you?) for having "a problem" with all this, umm.. STUFF your H has been throwing at you.

Who/what/when/where/how did someone start thinking there was something askew in your thinking/feeling process?

I know. That is what I said at MC yesterday. The MC we are with believes that all challenges are life lessons to be learned. He was asking if this could be my lesson to let go of the fears I have associated with the A. I told him I didn't think it was, because I feel it is too soon. It is not just an uncomfortable feeling I am experiencing. It is painful ~ literally physically painful still.

Our life lesson must be in some other place. Like H realizing that I will stick to my boundaries this time around, and that he cannot continue being with me if he is going to continue to act so irratic (or erratic?).


Well, what the MC is saying is that until H can discover who he is, outside of judgement and blame, he is ultimately a danger to our M. And we are trying to facilitate him discovering who he is, with my strict boundaries. I have been challenged to think on certain concepts. That is all.

Please do not worry ~ I can hold my own with the MC and my H. The MC is just pushing my comfort zone, trying to find a good space for everyone.

Spidey

Spidey, I want you to understand where I'm coming from here...
it's probably not a virtue of mine, but when something doesn't make sense to me, I try to understand, and it bugs the he11 out of me until I do.
AND, my one experience (over 2 or 3 months) with a "Marriage Counselor" was so way out there... (IOW it was a joke, and a huge mistake on my part to continue trusting this guy -- I say that with NO reservations).
So, I admit I'm carting some baggage into the subject matter...

You're saying that the MC was asking if you could take this latest situation -- your H's turmoil over his feelings for another woman, and the polyamory thing -- and turn it into a lesson to let go of your A-related fears?

All I can come up with is a very intelligent and sophisticated: HUH??!?

And you thought your MC was "so way out there!" As you know, I have often talked about struggles that come up for us in our lives as "wonderful" learning opportunities. And I do believe that the stuff that comes up is a lesson we are meant to learn. If we choose to let it go, it will simply come back until we get it, often becoming more and more "loud" so we can't possibly miss it.

And the MC was simply putting it out there as a possiblity. And I told him that I didn't think that was it, because more was coming up for me than I could deal with. And it still is. So, here is my update:

H and I have agreed for now that what he wants is to be able to be friends with this co-worker. He has agreed to tell me of all personal communication, to let me see his IM log whenever I ask, and to be completely open and honest with (first himself) then with me.

I also have an appointment with our MC this Friday, by myself, to begin working on these other anger issues that have come up for me during this process. I think in my zeal to work on my M, I left a lot of my own stuff and didn't deal with it. I think that is what a lot of what is coming up for me now is. *and, you never know, maybe this dog and pony show HAS been for me to fully "get over" the A. Finally.

This next week, my H plans on checking in with the co-worker to see where she is at with her feelings. If she wants a romantic R with H, he is going to encourage her to talk to her H about her feelings, so they can resolve their R. He will continue being her friend, but he is also not going to fall into his role of "white knight" or "rescuer."

I feel a little scared about this, but also realize that it is important to H. I feel this is a much more manageable "stretch" for me than tackling all of polyamory and what it means to both of us right now.

And, to reiterate, H isn't even sure he wants polyamory. It is an intriguing concept to him, but not something he knows for sure he wants to practice in his life. And if he does, it might just be on a friendship level.

So, we will take baby steps in this direction, be 100% open and honest, continue to see our MC for guidance and mediation, and get our finances all straightened out so in the future, if we have irreconcilable differences, finances won't seem like a "tie that binds" us together.

Tonight, I feel really good about this. Opposite sex friends are not impossible to have, as you and I have shown. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> One thing my H learned from the A experience is that lying and hiding do NOT work, and he feels stongly that it wouldn't work for the co-worker, either. And I feel like this is a very good starting point for us to move forward from where we have found ourselves lately, to see if we can continue together.

What say you to all of THAT??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Spidey

The latest update is that H and coworker went to lunch today and talked about H's "deep bond" feelings toward her. H can't tell me much, as he is still at work, but she did NOT reciprocate his feelings. She also did not tell her H, because he is still recovering from a deep/prolonged depression, and she doesn't think it is necessary since she is sure her feelings do not go that way.

So, I still don't know what I am going to do about my situation. But at least, for now, I am not worried about there being an OW.

There might not be an OW but I'm not convinced you don't have a WH <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I thought going to lunch alone with this woman was not one of your boundaries?