***So, I still don't know what I am going to do about my situation. But at least, for now, I am not worried about there being an OW.***

Spidey, I can only quote your own sig line at you when it comes to this whole situation with your WH and his OW -- and that's exactly what they are, even if you have twisted your brain into a triple-deep-fried pretzel dripping with melted cheese trying to convince yourself that they're not --

"But that's totally, FEATHER PLUCKIN', INSANE!!!"

Mulan

Well, it wasn't. But, I changed that boundary. He didn't do it without my knowledge ~ he told me this morning he was going to ask her to lunch today so that he could find out where she was at with her feelings.

And I don't know where we are going from here, either. This is a minuute-by-minute marriage, at this point.

Okay, Mulan, I get it from you that you think I am a complete idiot. And maybe I am. I am still trying to figure this all out, before doing anything rash.

Do you have any suggestions, or do you just want to tell me how stupid you think I am?

{{spidey}}

No one thinks you are an idiot! I am worried about you but you seem to be keeping your head. I worry that he is slowly getting you to move your boundaries. I do agree with Mulan that even if there is no OW, your H certainly seems to be trying to be a WH again. I myself am really, really bad at holding firm on boundaries so I am asking you are you ok with all this? Really, truly in your heart ok?

And I'm not convinced you don't have a WWH, as in the extra W... you know the drill...

I was guessing that was the case -- from things that you wrote recently.

My simple mind leads me to.... your H is a very mixed up guy.
And I continue to think that this MC is not doing anyone any favors - to put it nicely.

Spidey, I keep thinking about how much you've put into this (your M, yourself, everything!!!), and your H is still trying to figure out how many women he can simultaneously "bond with."

Ouch.

I know you're going through Pure He11, but I hope in some convoluted way you're recognizing that the wackier your H continues to act, the more glaringly obvious it is that You Have Nothing To Do With This.

Remember the big long list of things that lead people into affairs... among them, low self-esteem, depression, character disorders, etc.............

Spidey, what are you thinking now??

Spidey, you're not an idiot, and you know it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> ... don't doubt yourself.
It's hard to believe it happens in a place like this, but compassion and empathy seem to go out the window sometimes -- often when they're needed most.

Spidey,

I don't think anyone could possibly think you are an idiot - quite the contrary, in fact. It's quite obvious that you are an extremely intelligent and compassionate person who is involved in a marital crisis (would "welcome to the club" be in order?).

I don't think Mulan intended to insult you with her post. She simply has a no-nonsense way of putting things.

The fact is, you are extremely well-like around here and the basis of everyone's concerns is that they want the best for you.

Sometimes it's so difficult for people to be objective about their own situation and others offer their perspective, as FF said, in hopes that it will prevent an individual from adjusting their boundaries to suit behavior that is not conducive to their well-being.

Anyone's perspective is just another tool you can use (or not use), in the process of figuring things out and any decision-making on your part.

I'm so sorry things are so tense for you right now, Spidey.

Spidey, I do not think you are either an "idiot" or "stupid."

I think you are frightened and in great pain and are so desperate to save your marriage that you have allowed yourself to be brainwashed into this polyamory/open-marriage/we're-so-mature-and-secure-that-we-don't-need-normal-rules kind of relationship.

It reminds me of a high school girl who will go along with anything to keep her boyfriend, no matter how much he ignores her and spends his time with other girls instead. All he has to do is tell her how much he admires her "security" and "maturity" by letting him do this, so he gorges on double and triple helpings while she starves to death on crumbs.

I think you are setting yourself up for total disaster by going along with this.

I wonder why you don't think you deserve a faithful, loving and FULL-TIME relationship.

Please, please do an Internet search on Open Marriage. Read what the women who have been talked into this have to say about it when it's over.

They all sound EXACTLY like you -- they thought as long as their spouses were honest with them, the truth would protect them and they were so "secure" that they could handle this.

But guess what? Those men lied through their teeth about what they were really doing and just gave their wives enough crumbs to shut them up.

Calling a pile of crap a rosebud does not make it a rosebud, Spidey. Your WH is offering you nothing but another pile of crap dressed up with a fancy name. I don't understand why you think you have to settle for this.

And please don't tell me that your spouse isn't asking for an Open Marriage. Oh, yes, he is.

You deserve far better, Spidey. If my own daughter was saying the things you are saying, and was trying to talk herself into some bull like "polyamory" in order to keep her so-called marriage, I'd go out and kick MYSELF for not raising her better.
Mulan

All I have agreed to do, Mulan, is wait and see if polyamory is what he really thinks is the thing for him. Or, if the feelings he has for this co-worker, and apparently a couple other women in the past (that he never acted on) are just friendship feelings.

If my H says for sure he is polyamorous, our M is over.

Him talking to this co-worker in the first place was a misunderstanding that we had at 3 am, after arguing and crying for several hours. He did not hide it from me, told me right after it happened, and apologized when he realized that is not what I had agreed to.

I also told him this morning that it was OK with me for him to talk to this co-worker regarding their previous conversation, because I wanted to know how she felt. For several reasons, one of which if her feelings were reciprocated, I wanted to make sure her H was aware of the sitch.

As it turns out, she only has friendship feelings for H. She also knows that I know of their conversations, and that I was in agreement that they talked.

I think it is so sad if my H decides he is polyamorous, because either 1)the way I am hardwired, or 2)my past experiences (to include the A), or 3)a combination of numbers 1 and 2, I cannot follow him down that path. This is what I know for sure.

I don't know if my H is having an early mid-life crisis, or if he just never matured emotionally. He knows he is hurting me, and he wishes he wasn't. Of course, he isn't just telling me what I want to hear, either. Which I guess is good, because once we deal with this issue, I want it to be dealt with.

This was an issue brought up when his EA first started with the OW. He felt like he was in love with us both. That is when he started researching polyamory on the web. I remember the night he told me ~ simulatneously that he thought he was polyamorous, and that he was in love with another woman. It broke my heart. This whole thing breaks my heart.

Before he came back, I told him if he was polyamorous, that it wouldn't work out. He told me he wasn't ~ that he was sure of it. That it was just a way to justify/rationalize the A to himself. Well, turns out, he might have made himself feel that way at the time because he wanted to come back so badly. He was lying to himself. I still feel like he mislead me, although perhaps not on a conscious level.

Over the past 18 months, his feelings for the OW have come and gone. Recently, he realized that he had strong feelings for this co-worker. He says the feelings are different than for the OW, which are different from the ones he has for me.

Neither H nor myself had other relationships before we got married. We each had made out with others, but nothing serious. What H is feeling for the FOW could be nothing more than normal feelings people feel after a relationship ends. He doesn't know ~ he's never had that before. Now with the co-worker . . . they could be just friendship feelings.

I don't understand how someone doesn't know these things about themselves. But I do know that he is being as honest as possible with me, we negotiate everything, we are in MC, and we are just trying to figure it all out.

I post here because sometimes it helps to get it all outside of myself. I am not sure at this point what is stretching for me and uncomfortable, but still OK ~ and what is giving too much away that I believe in. I am going to IC tomorrow to help me discover where I'm at with that now.

If my H said, "I am polyamorous, I love this other woman, and I want to bring her into our relationship," I would tell him, "Pack up and get out and don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya."

And he knows it. We just want to be sure about what he is feeling, what it means, and how he feels he needs to live his life. Now, I am willing to let him have friends ~ even of the opposite sex. This is an uncomfortable stretch for me, but with open and honest communication and negotiation, I know we can do that. My H had a lot of female friends when I met him, and hadn't had any romantic relationships with any of them. His father is also a distant, socially dysfunctional man who traveled with business for the majority of his childhood. He spent a lot of time with his stay-at-home mom. I know he communicates and gets along well with women.

But there is this polyamorous thing hanging above it all ~ the deal breaker, the marriage killer. *sigh*

I am hurting, I am confused, I am trying to make the best decisions for myself and my family ~ just like we all here try to do. I am not perfect.

Spidey

And for the record, you're a class act, my friend.

Thanks, I needed that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is lighting some very lethal marriage dynamite.

Why are you toying with something you know damn well is so dangerous???

I don't understand why you need to be "understanding" about having your beating heart ripped from your chest in front of your very eyes while he's asking for your "blessing" to do the ripping !!!

Spidey .... say "No" say "Not now, and not ever."

This will cause permanent damage ... this is totally lethal stuff....

Never give him the whiff that you think this is ever acceptable .... inching toward this cliff is no safer than running toward this cliff .... once you have fallen off the cliff, you're dead either way.

He's stabbing at your marriage with these requests ...

say

"NO.... this MUST end NOW"

If you do not put a stop to this implied semi-acceptance of his nonsense, your marriage will likely be irrepairable .... even if he changes his mind .... because he is KILLING a very precious part of you that YOU need to function as his wife .... stop sitting still while he kills you slowly.

There is a time for everything ... this is a time to scream "NOOOO" ... and if he cannot stop himself, he must continue without you.

I beg you Spidey .... don't go there .... please <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

and... since I've popped in here and already opened my big mouth ... I want to add that this ...



is horseshyt

FEAR which is NOT irrational ... should NOT be ignored !!!

sure, let go of all irrational fears ....

but Spidey, I am here to tell ya, the fears you have since your experience as a betrayed wife are NOT irrational and ARE protective !!!

Would you tell your child to "let go" of his fear of large growling dogs ... after being bitten by a large growling dog?

methinks not ....

Your fear is smart .... honor THAT fear which is telling you to keep out of the soup!

....meaning ... allow him to taste the experience ... dip his toe in that water ... see if it satisfies ... and if it does not satisfy ??? return to your open arms and you will forget all about his little experiment .....until next time ....

I am very upset, as you can tell

I think allowing him this experiment is doing something rash .... something dangerous ...

Goodnight ... I'm going to take a pill and go to bed.

((( Spidey )))

Well, Pepperband, how do you REALLY feel?

I know. All of this has passed through my head as well. Most days, I cannot even believe I am having these conversations with him!

And this very may well end up in a D. In fact, it probably will. I am not sure what he was doing telling the co-worker his feelings, since he isn't even sure what his feelings are. And that is basically what he told her ~ I don't know what I am feeling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Like I said, I am going to IC tomorrow to attempt to ground and center myself, and make sure I am staying true to ME. And that doesn't necessarily mean MB concepts, or other board concepts, or any of you fine posters' here concepts. I know I want to be in a R with someone who has the courage to tell me their feelings, even if I don't want to hear them. But I don't want to be in a R with someone who ACTS on all these feelings, because sometimes feelings don't last very long.

So far, everything seems to be OK with the co-worker debacle. But like you have said, the damage may already be done inside of me. But, as Schnarch says in Passionate Marriage, we are a very resilient species.

I think after 17 years, I can wait a few more months until H is sure of his feelings, either way.

I know you all are concerned about me. I am concerned about me. Perhaps I shouldn't have gotten back together with him. Maybe I needed this time back with him to become ready to let him go. Maybe this is the Universe's way of telling me it is time to move on. Maybe this is my H's opportunity to finally "grow up" emotionally to be the man he wants to be.

I don't know. For now, I feel safe. H does not think the co-worker will change her mind about their relationship. Since he has no other feelings toward anyone else, besides occassionally the FOW ~ which he knows no contact will be made with her until the day he is signing our D papers ~ I think it is OK to continue on, take care of our business, and get prepared for whatever the future holds.

While we are waiting for his feelings to become clear, we are cleaning up our finances. H is cashing in some old stock so we can pay off some bills. We want to be financially able for me and the kids to stay in the house, him to find a decent apartment that he can have the boys at comfortably, and me to continue going to school full time and only having to work part time.

Basically, I am taking his thinking time to get my ducks in a row. I know he loves me, but he is hurting me. And that is something I might not be able to get over, either.

It is all so very sad, because I really think this is something he will regret down the line. And with how wishy-washy he seems to be right now, I don't think I will ever allow myself to get back with him. Once it is all separated, and I am on my own, I just know myself well enough to know that it will be over forever.

But, I can only control me. Even though through my posts I may seem like I am caving on my boundaries, I'm not. We had a misunderstanding, which crossed my boundaries. I feel H has worked in good faith, and with me, to try and make the best out of that bad situation with the co-worker. I think it is also OK to renegotiate boundaries regarding friends of the opposite sex. He seems to be very cooperative and compassionate about that with me right now.

But Polyamory is not something I will accept in my M. I know what I want, what I deserve, and in my way of thinking that would just be a "legalized" or "negotiated" way for him to act on all his feelings he has toward women. And that is not OK with me. He of course doesn't see Polyamory that way. He sees it as a pure form of love, sharing love, having many intimate relationships which may or may not include SF. Like I said before, either because of my hardwiring or my past experiences or a combination of the two, I am not open to this concept. And I honestly don't think H knows himself well enough at this point to successfully navigate those waters, anyway. And I am certainly not going to be involved in his "theories," his "mistakes," that will inevitably come with this new concept.

Believe me, if he is polyamorous, I will happily cut him loose and live my life (relatively) chaos-free ~ after all, I do have two teenage boys, so I have to expect some chaos!

Spidey

Spidey, I think you nailed it when you said your H is immature. I think men that did not have strong male figures in their lives sometimes have trouble maturing emotionally. Please keep posting your thoughts and do not let your boundaries get pushed! {{spidey}}

Thanks for responding Spidey .... yeah , I sugar-coat thing waaaay too much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Here's what I think about this ... I don't think your H needs to wait for "clear feelings" as much as he needs to unearth his integrity .... feelings are cheap, everyone has them all the time .... integrity is hard-earned and lasts a lifetime

.... thanks to you, I had a hard time sleeping .... so, you got your "revenge" on me (hahaha)

If going to lunch with her telling her of his feelings was not acting on them, I have no idea what is. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Susan