arjdad,

I just got done with things today (baked TONS of cookies with my sister), so I'm finally back on. I'm so sorry that you had a rough time of it again today. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I agree with Myrta; it'll get better. I can only imagine what heartbreak and misery you are going through. All I can say is that my H went through it too. He'd cry, and he'd reach out to me, and it was very hard for me to help him when I felt so close to the brink of self-destruction myself. The fog and the withdrawal do horrible things to your brain. I felt practically incapable of even taking care of myself. So, it's not that your W doesn't love you, or that she doesn't even say it right now; I'm sure that she CAN'T--she's too deep into her own pain. It'll all happen-give it time. I know that's hard for you to hear right now. Please remember--ONE DAY AT A TIME. Baby steps. It'll happen. We're all here for you.

CC

ARJDAD====== <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

HOW ARE YOU, WHERE ARE YOU????

myrta- iam struggling alittle, but i am doing ok i think. i just got home from church w/ the kids. wife stayed home working. hopefully, she can get caught up so we canspend some good family time together. at my work, i get the same time off as the kids at school. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> from dec.23- jan. 3.looking forward to that. still feeling somewhat down and wondering if she has ever even thought that i would leave her. i wonder if she thought i was going to leave, if that would speed up her reality check? i dont know, i am just thinking to much and know i need to be patient. you and buttercup have really kept me going this weekend. thank you so much <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> i am going to fix lunch now, i will be back soon,,arjdad

ARJDAD---Glad to hear from you!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I just came to my house for a few minutes, but I wanted to see how you were doing. I will write you later when I get back!!!

Hang in there!!!


MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">still feeling somewhat down and wondering if she has ever even thought that i would leave her. i wonder if she thought i was going to leave, if that would speed up her reality check? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Arjdad:

I wonder if your wife is starting to see you as a doormat. Not a good thing to get her out of her fog. It also promotes the thought that she could become a cake eater (having you and OM compete for her attention).

Lets try this:

1st of all--------- it seems your wife is going nowhere. The impression I get is that she is not leaving the marriage for the OM. It seems that there is virtually no chance she is going to do that. So time to put your foot down and let her know in a firm manner that she needs to get her act together or YOU will be the one that walks. Explain to her that SHE is the one who is LBing you A LOT! Sooner or later your love bank will be depleted and you may get tired of a woman who shows little interest in the marriage.

As you know Myrta was as foggy as your wife, but I made my point very clear to her. If she wanted to stay in the marriage I expected her to work at it. She gave me SF as needed even when she was not attracted to me. We took showers together and we talked a lot. I made it clear that I was going to forgive her, but I expected her to do everything she could to make the marriage work and she kept her word.

I am sure that Myrta wondered about leaving the marriage for OM who is separated from his wife (for practical purpose single). OM pressured her into leaving the marriage 24/7. I said to Myrta OK-------- If you want OM you can have him, but you will destroy your life and well as ALL your children. I was very stern about this and told her I wanted her badly, but only if she wanted the marriage. Otherwise, she was out the door as far as I was concerned. IN a sense I think I did all of this to save my self-esteem and pride. At one point I weakened and almost became a doormat. I almost cave in to some off the wall demands Myrta had. Retrospectively I made the right decision.

The only way for the marriage to recover is to have BOTH sides want the marriage and we accomplished this. We still have our differences, but as time goes by the affair is starting to become a distant memory.

Your wife needs to get on the stick, post on the board, and try to please. Your wife needs to do some of the work----- at this point it is only you. Don’t worry about making her upset with your demands------- all WWs get upset about this, she is no different.

stan-ley-- interesting the things you wrote today. tiday i have been feeling just a little bit angry towards my wife. it is just like you said, i am trying/doing everything, and all she seems to be doing is wallowing in self -pity missing him.like i should care that she is upset about having to break up w/ her lover.i was thinking/wondering if i should be more firm with her about what i expect of her, or just keep giving her time and patience. i would like to tell her "if you can't KNOW for sure that you want to work at and save this M, than get out. i am not leaving, i am not the one who had the A". i know that i am just venting, i can't do that yet, but i do not want her to think she can just treat me like a roomate/butler and get away w/it.i don't know what to do <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> ... myrta-buttercup, if you are on tonight, i could use your input to. thanks...arjdad

stan-ley-- also you are correct, there is no chance of her leaving the M for the OM. she also is stillso foggy, she can't/won't say if she "WANTS" the M to work. i just assume she would'nt go to MC if even sub-conscionsly, she didn't want it to work out. thanks again,....arjdad

myrta- do you think stan-ley is right? should i pressure her to make a decision and either start working on the M, or get out? i am pretty angry today, i don't want to say something i will regret later. thanks for input,...arjdad

arjdad,

I read what Stanley said. Sorry, but I was out all day and couldn't check in here... As far as what Stanley said, if my H had taken that approach, I would have either kicked him out or I would have walked. Seriously! At that point I was so depressed that it was pitiful. I could barely think straight, and could hardly take care of myself. That wasn't the time for me to be making snap decisions about being able to come back into the marriage full force.

I don't think I was walking all over my H and I felt VERY badly if he was doing too much for me (and I told him so). I just needed time, alone, to get through the deep depression. It wasn't only over losing my lover and best friend. It was about the guilt that I started to feel for my H. So, that approach of being harsh with me wouldn't have worked. It would have pushed me further away.

UNLESS your W is being mean to you and disrespectful and NOT showing remorse, I'd say that she just needs some time right now. Try not to do too much for her, but I'd be supportive in case she's desperately depressed (i.e.: suicidal, like I was).

It's your choice how you want to handle this right now, but in my opinion, she's not going to change overnight and be all happy about piecing the marriage back together. The withdrawal and fog takes some time for some of us.

Gotta run, but I'll be back to check in tonight.

CC

P.S. The only thing I'd encourage her to do right now is to go into IC and most definitely into MC. I was willing to do both. I was eager to speak to a professional about all the bottled up feelings I had, and I definitely needed some good advice and direction. I'd encourage you two to do the same.

CC

ARJDAD---So, you are feeling a bit angry today. Why do you think you feel angry today, Arjdad???\
You are feeling angry because you feel your wife is just "there" but not really there! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
ArJ-I just read CCs reply to you. I think that her case is a bit different, because her affair was different. Your wife needs to snap out of it. I dont think your wife is suicidal, I think your wife is just wallowing in her self. But she is very busy, functioning properly with her work. She is just not paying attention to you, and she needs to do that.
Her OM is not coming back, she knows this, you know this, OM knows this. But yet your wife is still crying over her loss "love", but she knows that it would not be right, because she has young children to tend to. She has a husband that cares for her.

I was feeling sorry for myself to at the beginning, but if my husband had been a "doormat", it would had made me sick!!! I wanted him to show me, that I had to make a decision, even if that decision was change later. But then, I had to act right away to try to save what was still left. ArJ, you cannot continue in this one way street, because whats going to happen is that you are going to start resenting your wife, almost hating her. Then when she starts coming out of the fog, you are the one, getting ready to leave. Or you would be very receptive to the attention of another appreciative woman. She needs to know this. You are a man, that needs the attention of his wife, even if is "fake" for some time. It will start to be natural, as time progresses.
You cannot be scared of her, and now you are!!! You have to be strong and tell her that her behaviour is hurting and angering you. She is not going to kill herself and she is not going to walk out. She has everything there with you. Where would she go? OM is COMPLETELY OUT OF THE PIC!!
You have heard of "tough love"? Is sometimes apply to our own children when they are misbehaving, when they are in trouble with the law. If you continue to be scare or feeling too sorry for her, she will lose all respect for you.

Is like you are living with a decoration, you are not talking to her, you are not sleeping with her, you dont get affection from her!! What are you getting from her ARJ? It has been over two months, she needs to start getting her act together. Even if she was feeling "detached" from you years before the affair. Thats not an excuse, for her continue indifferent behaviour towards you.

She needs to start somewhere, even if is just holding hands, a kiss here and there, something!

ArJ--We all go thru that at the beginning, us FWWs, she is not the only one. She thinks she is the only one. I thought I was the only one too, before I started to read here. We are all so similar is scary. But I really dont see any efforts from her part to try to save your marriage, she is not trying at all. If she continues like this forever, how can she expect the marriage to work out??

MYRTA

ARJDAD--And I am not saying that your wife has get into the marriage full force, but she has to show you some effort. She needs to show you that she is trying, because if she is not even trying a little bit, what are you working for???

She also needs to do all activities with you and the kids, she has to inmersed herself into the family, even if she is swamped with work.

MYRTA

Arjdad:

If I am not mistaken CC was ready to leave her marriage, therefore it was imperative for her H to be cautious. If the other party would not have ended the affair CC may have walked. When the WW is about to leave the marriage one would probably use a different method. However, your wife has no place to go, it seems quite clear that she never planned to form a home with OM. Her relationship was a fantasy. Now if OM was waiting at the street corner to pick your wife up that would be another story.

Myrta and I have told you be be tough, but despite everything CC may also have a point. While your wife is in withdrawal she is not going to be receptive to your love units. Trying to court her is not going to do it. You may want to leave her alone and wait 6-12 months. If you decide to do this I would think she should see her doc and ask for medication for depression. At least that would be something positive from her part.

She may or may nor react positive to a tough love approach, but you don't really know that till you try it. Have you discussed with your wife the scenario of ending the marriage and trying to explain family and friends that the divorce was the result of infidelity from her part? Have you explained to your wife that perhaps you may have custody of the children while she runs after OM in Florida? Does she know that the overwhelming majority of affairs end very badly------- success stories are infrequent. Does she know that sooner or later you may run out of patience and perhaps become receptive to another woman who will listen to you?

This is frustrating Arjdad! Affairs make no sense at all to the betrayed spouse. It is impossible for anyone to understand the dynamics of these relationships----------- they are always bizarre and full of circumstances that make absolutely no sense. In my case Myrta was attracted to a man that was grossly mismatched to her looks! CC, who is a heterosexual woman was attracted to another woman. Some men with near perfect wives leave the marriage for women who are nothing but hookers. Others have affairs where there is a 25-30 year discrepancy in age. A doctor's wife in this board fell for an OM that worked in a landscaping company or a construction company(BTW nothing wrong with blue collar work, but I wanted to show the dicrepancy).

It is all strange because it is not based in reality. The only normal reality is you and the children and YOUR WIFE MUST KNOW THAT SHE ALSO BETRAYED THE KIDS!!!!!!!! Yes, Arjdad-- kids hurt as much as the BS when an affair is uncovered. This is one of the elements that helped my wife come down to Earth. A mother does not like to hurt the children!

How come your wife did not go to church with you? Did you know that going to church is very positive to us. We always feel VERY close in church--- very peaceful. I am not sure why, but it happens everytime!

<small>[ December 19, 2004, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

buttercup --thanks for your reply. i to sometimes think that if i pressure her it would push her away more. but at this point, i don't know if that would be possible. she is not being mean or disrespectful to me, but she does'nt show remorse either. i just don't know how long i should go on like this w/out putting my foot down some?...................................................myrta, thank you also,i am not sure why i feel angry. maybe because she worked all weekend and i did everything w/ the kids.i also am wondering if i am not the biggest fool in town for just staying here in misery because she misses her BF! does she not think that i hurt to? i don't want to do anything this close to holidays, but i am thinking if i don't see something possitive by new years, i may have to threaten to kick her out. like i said before, i am not leaving, i didn't cheat on her. i have heard of tough love, and i am leaning that way. so you think 9 weeks is enough time that she should be able to decide if she wants to put forth any effort to save the M? i don't right now feel like i am scared of her, but i do feel like i am afraid of losing the M.altho right now, there is not much to lose. i am going to MC alone wed., she didn't want to go back until after holidays, and i am going to talk to MC about this then. i think until then i will just keep on like i have been. so...you think if i pressure her some, it won't drive her farther away? maybe she needs a little "kick in the rear" to get her going? let me know what you both think, i am so confused, but getting tired of the game. keep in mind that i do love this lady with all my heart, and it would kill me to lose her. thanks for listening,..arjdad

stan-ley--- she did not go to church because her back was hurting her to day and the pews at church are somewhat uncomfortable. usually, we all go as a family.when you say maybe i should leave her alone 6-12 months, do you mean seperate? or just co-exist like we are now? we talked aboutdepression mrds w/MC, but MC thought they might just cover up the pain, and it would still have to come out later. wife doesn't think she is depressed. i have thought about that other stuff, and i think one of her biggest fears is the kids finding out. but do i want to hold that over her head like a threst?wouldn't i be manipulating hwer? i want this to work out and save the M because she WANTS to, not because she feels like she has to. i wonder if she needs to realize that i won't do this forever, and i could leave or kick her out at any time? thanks for your input,...arjdad

myrta-- on the positive side, i am not having any trouble acting cold/indifferent to day. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> arjdad

ARJDAD---With all sincerity I tell you , that I dont think your wife will walk away, if you show a bit of anger and expect something from her. She needs to see that you are getting tired of her head games. Why can she go with you to the marriage counseling? Why wait so long after the holidays? More than ever now, she needs to go. Holidays make people more sad and depressed.

ArJ- I like CC very much, we chat online, we exchange e-mails. But I think that her husband was avoiding for too long her affair. Her withdrawal has been longer that mine. I understand also, that there are her doubts about her sexuality involved too. But your wife's only doubt, like mine,is her so called "lost love"!

You need to change your approach with her. You need to show her, that you are getting tired of her indifference. I am not saying, force her to have sF with you, no, but she needs to show you that she is willing to try.

MYRTA

myrta-- that is exactly how i feel to. i guess i am just trying to get up the courage to say something. should i threaten to end it if she doesn't show some effort? i remember once shortly after DD, i was at MC alone, and i ask her how long until i see some change? she said wife should be able to at least have an idea what direction she wants to go by the end of the tear.that would be 11 weeks since DD. you know, and wife knows, that i want to stay together, happily, and i am so afraid of pushing her away and losing her. i know i won't lose her to OM, but lose her just the same. but i can't go on like this. should i talk to her about this tomorrow, or wait til after the holidays? thanks,.arjdad

Stanley,

Just to hijack here for a second... NO, I wasn't ready to leave my H at any point in my A!! I mentioned that it was a pipedream that the OW and I had, that *when* our children were grown and on their own, that maybe we'd live together, *if* we wanted to do that at that time (years down the road!). She also said that had she met me before she had children, things might have been different. I agreed. Our marriages and our children interfered with the possibility of us being together.

Now, having said that, I always wanted to remain with my H, at least until my children were grown, or until I realized I didn't want to be here. I always wanted to be here. I loved him, and I loved her. I wasn't going anywhere, and I was willing to go on with the A for another 20 years, if possible (I think!).

Arjdad has a different situation than I had/have. I WAS remorseful. I WAS guilt-ridden, and I did want to be at least somewhat affectionate to my H. Even in the deepest dispair of my depression, I still had some feelings for him--not that of a friend or butler! I held his hand (never stopped). I was affectionate. I just wasn't ready to have meaningful sex with him for a very long time (I was too confused).

So, I think that if Arjdad's wife is being either nasty, mean, aloof or extremely distant, then I'd be worried. KEEP IN MIND that she's going through the withdrawal and fog, and *I* believe that 2 months isn't that long in some cases. Sorry. Not everyone could behave the same way to the same approach. Had my H insisted on sexual intimacy with me in order to repair our M (even after only 2 months), I would have run the other way. He agreed (through MC) that it was up to ME when I'd be comfortable beginning to resume our sex life together. At times it was frustrating, but it's paid off.

So, Arjdad, you have a few different opinions here. I'm sorry that you're frustrated and confused. I know that it's probably hurtful that your W isn't displaying affection or even giving you a clue as to what she may want regarding your relationship right now. I still think that more time is in order until she's ready to make a determination AS LONG AS SHE'S NOT BEING HATEFUL OR MEAN. Just my opinion...

CC

buttercup-- i really respect your opinion, and actually feel like trying to do something in between what you and myrta say. i don't know what that would be, but i do remember telling you that MC ask wife what she needed most from me, she shrugged her shoulders and said, "time". i know w/d and fog is differnet for everyone, i am just trying to figure out what i should do. thanks for your input, keep it coming i really appreciate the three of your's thoughts.....arjdad