Next time she pushes that button, excuse yourself, go in the bedroom, change into your Chipendale's outfit, come back out and do your best bump 'n grind.

Make sure that she has some dollars for stuffing.

Don't be so quick to say she is lying about wanting in or out. She may not know what she wants, or it may change from moment to moment. From reading your posts YOU have flipped flopped repeatedly about whether you want in/out or to be perceived as being out.

Are you calmer now? Got the thong out and ready to make better?

First, try a small gift or a thoughtful gesture when you get home to show her that you are no longer angry, or that you don't want to be angry.

You have lots of work to do. Your W has changed. Maybe you can use some of what she said to open her up to telling you how she has changed, why she thinks the two of you won't work out. Ask for specifics. It may be her, but you have to understand how she has changed. Try to listen, really listen and listen actively, question without judgment or offering solutions, try to understand why she thinks you won't work out, try to understand who she has become and why. Be prepared to be shocked. Her expectations, needs and wants may have changed dramatically from when she was twenty-two.

Listen to her like a man in love listens to his loved one.

I don't know much about women, but someone just told me this that has been through a D. Once she had decided that it was over w/her xH, once she crossed that line, there was absolutely nothing he could do to get her back. She rejected everything he did for her. She did not know what it would take for me to get WW back, but it is going to need to be dramatic.

OK, that is complete nonsense. Why are you seeking advice from someone whose marriage has failed?

Besides that, your wife has not decided that it is over in spite of what she may have told someone else. Even if she tells you it is over that is only how it feels to her at that moment. Do not make decisions based upon feelings that may change tomorrow.

It's up to you to lead the way here. Show her the correct path.

You may think that D is going to solve your problems and your pain will end but it won't; it may make it even worse.

A dramatic gesture is not going to work. Is that what this person tried?

Patience, kindness, consistency, determination, gradual rebuilding of trust is the way to go.

OK. Did I say I believed her advice? On some level, it does make some sense. In fact, it sure sounds like the w/d period, which can last for 6 months or longer in some women, an eternity for them.

So, I basically just threw that one up against the wall as a statement, not a fact. Right now, I am just tired. Plan A, well I'll plan A because it is more natural for me to plan A than fighting is. I don't want to fight, but I don't see us ever getting out of this rut. WW hasn't moved one inch in months. She still uses the same mantra, the same DJs (oh yeah, they apply to the WS as well), she still thinks the same thing, says the same things.

Bear,

Do you have a timeframe for Plan-A in mind? Also, do you believe that your wife is simply trying to wait you out, figuring that if she is aloof, you'll eventually give up and end the marriage?

I don't know. The A is over but she is unwilling to commit to recovery at this point. Keeps talking D, gathering material, etc. I have an appt this aftn w/an attorney. I want to talk to him about my rights, what I should be doing just in case, can I even plan B? What effect would that have on custody? etc.

I don't want this and will not file, but I need to know what my rights are and what I can realistically expect from this sitch if it goes down plan D.

OK, I am stopping and taking a look at where I am at.

First, I met with an attorney yesterday. I needed to find out my rights. I needed to know what to do if WW would try to take DS out of the house again. I was also given tips as what WS have done in order to turn the tables on BS in the eyes of the law (i.e. provoke into physical altercation, download kiddie porn on BS computer then call cops, etc). It is real nasty business. I do not believe my WW is capable of any of that, but I never thought I would be here.

Why is this relevant? I live in an at-fault state. No quickie D here. It will all come out and with the documented proof of everything that has gone on...in the lawyers words, you have a hammer if you want to use it. I could get primary custody, assets, the works. I don't want it. I want my W, family, and M. He also told me that she would be a fool to file now. She would just shoot herself in the foot and that any attorney worth a [censored] would tell her the same thing.

So, where are we at? Well, WW and I agreed to talk this weekend. She last stated to me she doesn't want a D. She was in a good mood last night when she got home. Not towards me, but in a good mood to see DS and in general. That makes me happy to see that. I don't like seeing her in pain. I wonder, though, if there is something she is doing that I need to watch out for. I don't know what.

I guess I will just continue being good dad and nice to WW. Actually, it is not that hard to do good acts. The hard part is receiving no love.

I cannot control WW. I have known that for some time. But I know that it goes as far as wanting to seek MC (she is in IC, but haven't MC's for 2 months), to even filling out ENQ. To doing anything to help this M. She is going to have to choose to do this, I cannot just prod her into doing something, she has got to be committed.

I guess all I can tell her is that I am committed to the M and will do the things it takes to recover and that if she wants to do the same she can. The choice is hers.

I have known these things all along. Just get wrapped up in the moment and forget everything I've learned. We all make mistakes, you live and learn.

This sounds good. Write that down; she does not want a D.

Is your Chipendale's outfit cleaned and pressed?

Hi Bear. Just wondering how the counselling session went last week. Hope your weekend was good (at least as good as it can get). Thanks for your help on the other thread last week; re-characterization of motives, actions, reactions can really help.

Counselling session,ummm, didn't happen. I was supposed to have IC on the day we had our big blowup last week. I ended up cancelling my IC session, she went to hers. I told her that I wanted to work on M and I did not want to go see a C for anything other than that. I don't think I LB'd here and I'll tell you why later.

I have to go now but there is more to the story and the rest of the week. I'll fill you in later.

I have some time now so here is the story of what happened.

A week ago we were each supposed to have IC sessions on the same day. I had learned that she had been telling her friends that she wanted a D but that I just couldn't take the hint that she didn't want to be M anymore.

That morning I asked her about this. About why I should bother seeing an IC about our M if it was over from her POV. She said that I needed to talk to somebody (funny she should make a judgement about what is best for me). I told her I was not going to go see IC so I could get prepped for dealing w/a D. I told her the only way I was going to see an IC was if we were going to work on our R, otherwise I wasn't interested in what the C had to say.

This discussion turned into an arguement. D came up and the future of our DS. I asked her how she viewed our D life. I told her if we D, I want no R with her at all except that we share a child together. I brought up her talking to a lawyer. What did they tell you? No real answer. I told her that if she proceeded down that road that I would not just lay down aand agree with whatever she wanted. That I would seek physical custody of DS. I told her that it was not an automatic that she would get phy cust, a judge would decide that, and that everything would come out, they would go through every inch of our lives and what has gone on. (We live in an at fault D state. I discussed this with a very good D lawyer, gave him details of everything, and he said I had a hammer if I wanted to use it. I would get anything I wanted. Not real interested in that, but good to know.) I then said that I did not want that, I don't want a D, that I want us to be happy together and work on our R. Of course, she viewed this as me just trying to make her pay and that I was trying to take her DS. I reverse babbled her and repeated exact lines she said to me about how she could still be a good parent and see DS anytime she wanted and how our R wouldn't be that bad and we could be friends, used her name instead of mine. Asked her how that felt to hear those words. That is exactly what she is doing to me. I am his father and would be crazy not to want him in my life. It is not about punishing her, it is about me wanting to be his father. I ended it by saying that this is not what I wanted (a D), however.

During this whole exchange she hit and kicked me several times, threw a toothbrush case at me. I picked it up and said "I think you dropped this". I remained calm, no AO, no name calling until...she started in on me with remarks about my family and then started to make some really cutting remarks. I LB'd, said some things I shouldn't have, said FU for the things you are saying, FU for wanting a D, FU for hurting me so bad. Not good.

When it calmed down I asked her if she thinks I meant the things I said. Yes. Then do you mean the things you said to me. No. Well, I didn't mean the things I said either, just being angry and stupid. I hoped she understood.

So, I still cancelled the IC session. Told her I would love working with a MC. But I believed that we needed to talk w/an MC that dealt strictly with M's, not a general counselor. I told her that I just didn't have faith in our current C (I had talked about some things with IC, exact points that WW brought up. I don't think they discussed what I had said, but just felt like I was being massaged in a certain direction.)

Finally, I asked her point blank twice if she wanted a D. She said no both times. So, I can't figure out why she is telling her friends that she does.

No arguements since then. I do nice things for her, such as Sun morn got groceries, brought back a cherry danish for her (she likes them). Responded with "I already ate". Danish still sitting there in sack on counter. Other things where I will do nice things for her and not even get a simple thank you. To be expected, but where has even common courtesy gone?

So that's the story. I am sure I made a lot of mistakes. At this point, I am getting indifferent. I would love to be happily married to her, but it wouldn't kill me if she filed, don't want it, but it wouldn't be the end of my world.

Bear

got two observations but remember I'm no expert just another BS like you or maybe FBS is the proper way to put it.

Anyway.........

first is that maybe she doesn't really know what she wants, has little knowledge about how to work this out, and no place where she can get a independant opinion either. Friends a lot of time tell you what they think you want to hear. I mean the very few I told said maybe I should kick my W out and get a younger model..they were only half joking. Maybe her friends could be doing the same.

now, I wondered if you would offer MB to her to talk to other FWW & BS here, if youre ok with that of course......you may want to be careful about letting her know your login right now.

the second thing thats a possibility is that she got the same legal advice you did & is being patient until its better for her to file for custody & Dv.

Dont know if that helps you much but I think if you want to save the M then go for it no matter what anyone thinks. Just protect yourself re custody and see what can happen with the M.....sounds like you have time on your side right now.

I may be in the minority here, but I think a good blow out can sometimes be a good thing. First, it reminds everyone involved that there are strong feelings between them.

You two have two good things working together. One, you both don't want to abandon the marriage, even in this most trying time. Two, you both want your DS. I assume that means you both want the best for him, although you both may be very far apart in how to get that for him. Can you use these facts to try to work together? To encourage joint MC?

And as for her saying you needed counselling. Well, take that as the good thing it is; she's recognizing the pain you are experiencing. Part of her still cares for you.

Doing nice things for her, for your family, will not change her mind, at least, not quickly. She expects that of you. Have you thought about different approaches to reach her? One thing that worries me is that she says she does not want a divorce but she does not think the two of you will work out. Have you asked her why she thinks that? Have you asked what the two of you can do together to help that? Have you asked her to help you in this regard? Are you prepared to listen and make changes (even tho' - yes it's unfair - she may have caused the most identifiable damage to the R)?

Most people want to believe that they are fair and generous. She might respond to a request that touches on this part of her.

One thing that turned me around was the realization that I never gave my H a fair chance to reach me, to understand the changes that were occurring in me and had occurred. When I started talking, he started listening. It's a two way street and an uphill one at that.

I don't know, that blowout seemed to clear the air and ease the tension. Your senses are good, WW doesn't hate me and wants me to be happy. She says that she just doesn't think she efer regain those 'feelings' for me. To be point blank, for some reason she doesn't want to have sex with me. Sex with people she barely knows, OK, but with the one person on earth who cares the most for her, nope. This is what I am hearing, anyway, the intimacy is gone.

IMO, there is a lot of doubt going on. How can I hurt someone I claimed to love? What kind of person am I? etc, etc.

The waters are just so muddy right now. Hopefully things clear up soon.

Okay, intimacy is a BIG thing for you right now. Have you thought that it may be incredibly difficult for her right now? For months I had to "self-edit" my thoughts in that regard, meaning, yes, I tried NOT to think of the OM. Do you know how difficult it is not to think of something under very intimate circumstances? Trust me, you will when the time comes. That can be a giant hurdle for her.

Second, she may be completely unable right now to share her changed sexuality with you. She may be petrified to share how she feels or what she wants. She may believe that you will never see her in the ways that she has changed and that you will never be able to change in those ways. I can guarantee you she has changed in that regard. She may not feel able to trust you with those changes. THAT's why sex with a stranger, a complete bar loser, may be easier than sex with you.

That's why you have to keep on trying to communicate, to draw her out (she keeps things well hidden, right?), to show her you are prepared to listen and change.

ps these changes may be a good thing ... if you can handle them

I have a thought. You mentioned how I might not be reaching her in the right way. This is cr*p and here is why; I am, in the least, going out of my way to be a very good husband. Doing all those things that most wives dream their husbands would do (except light the bedroom fires, which I would gladly do):

I don't lay around and watch TV, I don't run off w/ the guys and hang out in bars, I am not abusive, I am not hateful, I have stopped all the negatives (at least as long I don't get attacked in an arguement).

I am a good father, I do work my tail off around the house, I do my best to provide a nice place to live and provide the things we need to live, I do those extra things for her, going out of my way to make life better for her whether it's starting her car in the morning, picking up one of her favorite yummies, or just telling her to have a good day when I see she might be down.

I guess I am saying that why can't WW just see that the effort is really there to make ammends and that it is OK, I don't want to make her pay for her missteps. That should be evident by the fact that I am being so dang nice.

Maybe what is needed is a total removal of me from the picture. Then she could see how life is. I say this, but it will never happen. I cannot leave the house according to my legal counsel. That would not look good in the eyes of the court. Plus, I don't want to leave. It is not like I would leave because I don't want to be around her, actually it would be a means to an end. It is really the only thing I can think of that would rattle things and change the course we are on, which is wandering around to nowhere.

You said it, she comes to expect me to act the way I am now, guess why? Because this is how i was preA, for the most part. I was more confrontational than I am now, but generally the same guy that would go out of his way to show her how much I care for her.

BTW, I just got an email from her telling me 'thank you' for telling her to have a good afternoon.

Little by little?

Women are complex.

You sound just like my husband. Remember, very little, likely nothing, of what you did or did not do CAUSED what she did.

She did what she did for reasons that are INTERNAL to her. You have to keep doing the good things you do to create safety and trust. She's at a point where she has none for her own INTERNAL reasons. Keep up the safety and trust and she will recognize it as she begins to realign all the conflict in her own head.

I just think that you may want to work on her willingness to communicate some of her needs, and her changes, with you. You know, go beyond a questionnaire.