Yes, we are complex, maddening and lovely creatures. Often all we want is to be listened to. That means asking questions, questions that show you are trying to understand us. My H and I chatted last night about the difference between knowing "what" and knowing "why" and how the WHY connects us.

Why does she prefer cherry danishes over blueberry? Why did she like her Christmas present so much?

**You sound just like my husband. Remember, very little, likely nothing, of what you did or did not do CAUSED what she did.

She did what she did for reasons that are INTERNAL to her.**

When I hear stuff like this I get a little nervous. So, if her internal reasons kick in she will do it again, irregardless of how good of a husband I am.

I don't know, I don't like the sounds of that.

I would love to talk to WW for hours and hours. First, it is really a struggle to come up with things to talk about. It is like we are fixated on talk about DS, our only common ground. WHen I try to expand beyond that, I get one word responses.

I know she can talk about stuff, she is capable. I hear her talking to her friends about absolutely nothing all the time. Why can't we chat idly?

I do understand the affection thing, she may not just be able to RIGHT NOW, but from what she tells me she thinks it is a permanent condition.

Hey Bear,

Just got caught up on your sitch. I don't know if I have any advice, actually I don't cuz I'm a newbie <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . However since your WW is still in your house and seems at most times at least somewhat cordial around you I think that is positive.

I feel your pain brother I truly do. Keep your head up! Just a thought, since you kind of eluded to this in one of your previous posts, but have you thought about Plan B?

Native

No plan B. First, there is no active A going on any more. She agreed to cease all contact. Second, even if I wanted to I could not. Upon a lawyer's advice, as that may be seen as abandonment and would not be good if this went to a D, for custody purposes.

So then if there is no A I don't get your WW. What is her problem? Yeah I know we can't get that answer. It really bugs me that she doesn't make up her mind on what she wants. My WW does the same thing. I too have asked her what she wants a Legal Sep or a DV. She said she didn't know. So then it sounds like your still in Plan A, but she's not really receptive to it?

Native

Okay, remember where I am coming from. I've walked in your wife's shoes very recently and can clearly remember what they feel like.

"You sound just like my husband. Remember, very little, likely nothing, of what you did or did not do CAUSED what she did.

She did what she did for reasons that are INTERNAL to her.**

When I hear stuff like this I get a little nervous. So, if her internal reasons kick in she will do it again, irregardless of how good of a husband I am.

I don't know, I don't like the sounds of that."

You shouldn't. I believe in the phrase "once a cheater always a cheater" UNLESS the cheater has made make huge efforts to understand their actions and what caused them. I am very skeptical of those stories here where WSs make 180 turns in a matter of days or weeks. They haven't done the soul searching necessary to make sure they don't put themselves into similar situations where A can occur. Your wife, on the other hand, by at least being in therapy, sounds like she may be making some efforts. NC is a huge effort. Moving home, for whatever reason, is another. Being the best husband possible may not be enough - she has to deal with her demons. Not an easy task, I may add. You cannot control the process, it's hers, but you can be there to help. Like drugs or alchohol, you cannot control another adult's access, but you can be as supportive as you can be, and help them when they come to you, encourage them when you see progress. Have you adknowledged her progress recently?

"I would love to talk to WW for hours and hours. First, it is really a struggle to come up with things to talk about. It is like we are fixated on talk about DS, our only common ground. WHen I try to expand beyond that, I get one word responses.

I know she can talk about stuff, she is capable. I hear her talking to her friends about absolutely nothing all the time. Why can't we chat idly?"

Because to do what she did to you she had to block herself off from you. She's been blocked off for a long time. Her coming around is going to take a long time. It will be baby steps.

Another thing, when it comes to intimacy, most women get there through conversation, a to and fro, a sharing of thoughts and opinions. That is why , although you are doing a stellar job of being a good husband under the most difficult circumstances, she is not getting more intimate with you. Listen to how your wife talks with her GFs - it is not an exchange of information, it is an exchange of opinions and ideas.

I harp on about "why" because, before I stayed home to be with my kids, I was in a profession where I had to get information and persuade hostile and cagey people quickly. How did I do that (rather successfully, I might add)? I asked a "what" question and then asked a "why". The "why" questions were always more valuable. The "why" question opened up people, led me to way more information and created a trust because they could see that I was interested in them and their thought process.

Take or leave it as you will.

"I do understand the affection thing, she may not just be able to RIGHT NOW, but from what she tells me she thinks it is a permanent condition."

Right now she thinks it is a permanent condition. So did I. You cannot argue with that perception. Just remind yourself that like everything perceptions can change over time. In the meantime, keep trying to re-connect verbally and with small physical and non-physical gestures of intimacy. If you let her close you out then it's game over at this point, right?

Get into her mind first. Watch for those brief openings where she is receptive and pounce. Keep pouncing. The openings will get bigger and longer and you will get back in there.

Thank you for the insight.

The hardest thing is the conversation part. We need to talk and reconnect. I try to pick spots, ask probing, non-invasive questions, bring up simple everday things, but can only get one word short responses. I cannot get her to open up and talk about even the littlest of things.

My fear, she will give up hope that we will ever reconnect.

I don't like to keep going at her, trying to talk with her. After a few tries, she gets annoyed and blows me off. I am not liking this too much and I really wonder if I am going to be able to handle it, I mean, I don't know if I am skilled enough in conversation to tackle this. I know this is going to be very hard, but I need to remember, she is only going to talk to me when she wants to. I cannot make her talk.

You sound disheartened. Is there not anything to which she has responded positively? Have you tried talking about your feelings? Why do you think she has closed up so much?

Just another quick thought. You might be fixated on your son because that it the safest thing for you two to discuss.

Definitely DS is a safe area of discussion. I think we both, at times, view DS as the only positive thing to come out of our R. Not a true statement at all, but she has said that to me (actually she said that DS was the only right and good thing she has done with her life, which I told her wasn't true) and I have thought it at times. But, not a true statement.

As a general rule, I don't bring up R or feelings talk. We need to have those conversations, but we can't have those everyday. Plus, I don't want to beat her over the head with this, something she accused me that I would even before I had done it. (BTW, we talk about LB's, AO, DJ, et al. WW is the queen of the DJ. I get judged and told that I am GOING to do something, and I am like...what?...I hadn't even thought of that.)

Anyway, we don't have the feelings talk and R talk all the time. It seems all I talk about is DS, even at work to coworkers. I do not have anything else going on other than the A/Marriage talk and DS.

I have been trying to get her more involved in a home project. I have cleaned out and rearranged the basement to make room for the tons of toys DS has. A toy room, and it needs painting. I have asked WW what she thought about colors, etc. Totally disinterested, could care less. We could really have fun with this and get creative. I can't even get her excited enough to pick out a color much less anything else. I said maybe we could paint ABC's 123's on the wall. Answer: We're not doing that, just paint it white.

Maybe not meeting a need of hers, definitely could care less. Well then what does she care about? This is DS's playroom. Really, I could care less what color. I just don't want to 'take over' the project and get accused of doing anything I want (happened before). So I prompt her and get nothing.

Long post, but free writing my thoughts and what happens helps me tell my story better. Maybe gives you all better insight as to what advice to give. I just think she is still in w/d and i am doing my best to plan A and keep R talk to a minimum until she is more comfortable.

Disheartened, let's say frustrated. It is not a rollercoaster, but sometimes feels worse because it just fells stuck. Rollercoaster of emotions? Yeah, I go through the phases ranging from total apathy to just wanting to absolutely bed her down. (I'm chuckling, thinking about that as I am typing, and getting that burning feeling in my tummy!)

I am not scared of a D. I don't think she knopws what the heck she wants. She may want a D and not know a good way out. I really don't know where we stand and don't really want to bring things up. (Have learned we are both skilled at conflict avoidance.) Difference is, I don't mind if she brings it up, anytime, I'm fine. There seems to never be a good time to bring it up with her.