Ark

It has nothing to do with WS choice or BS choice or OP choice.

It has to do with lifestyle choice.

He was eyeballs deep in that lifestyle..that appealed to him. I'm not. It looks trashy to me.

I'll be in the job market soon..my looks will affect my options.

Any time you have to market yourself..you cover the entire spectrum. It's all about choices.

Noodle

We see it everywhere. I didn't know who Paris Hilton was [I mean, I had a clue..last name and all]..wonderred why she was all over the media when I started watching TV again..and was suprised to find that her claim to fame was..spending other peoples money and screwing around.

and little girls want to emulate her

This is an extreme I believe Ark aludes to. This type of idolation by society makes me very, very sad and it is scary, as mother of a little girl and as a woman who admires women very much.

When you put it this way, yes it reminds me of why after 10 years of bartending I quit and got a job at customs.

I was always afraid to be pretty, to attract attention to myself. Never wanted people to feel uncomfortable around me. ALWAYS the girls to like me, didn't really care about the guys, just wanted girlfriends. But now I want people to see the real me, which is a feminine, frilly girl on the inside who likes pretty clothes and pretty fingernails. It was my choice to become invisible, but now it doesn't suit me. Maybe that is because I have the confidence and I care so much about other people that I want them to accept me and be drawn to me, so that I can be who I am with them. Before I think I was afraid of people and did not want to stand out in a crowd.

And I think that is what Anyname was talking about when she noticed how much attention her daughter got because of her appearance. Anyname like me neglected her creative, feminine appearance side in favor of raising her family.

This was the other extreme Ark alluded to.

Yep, as in everything it is a balance.

And Noodle I am like you, I really dislike slutty looking. I like classy or artsy or asian style.
Classy doesn't really suit me but I do like it.

But I want a belly ring for me, to wear in the summer and I can't say why. Maybe because it looks exotic and I chickened out of the tattoo.

noodle I don't disagree about this state of things... in certain ...but certainly not ALL job markets...

but not equal in marriage and fidelity...

ARK

anyname,

I sincerely understand the need/desire to correct the kind of selflessness that can make a person "invisible" and neglect their own attractiveness through sacrifice. I don't need to imagine how devasting it is to discover, that I was the one "saving" and that I was the one who lost by not negotiating finances firmly.

However, the danger is in "over correcting" or seeing the opposite....indulgence...as liberating or attractive. You can lose who you are on either end of that spectrum....both sacrifice and indulgence You can gain on either end too...but the only way to a BOTH provide for ourselves, and provide for our families...does not come from either indulgence or sacrifice. The key....as someone earlier mentioned....is "BALANCE"...health...negotiation. I dress beautifully but without putting a financial strain on my family to achieve that...even when I was poor I was clean and fresh and could look like a million bucks in some old thang. Health...emotional and physical is far more attractive LONG TERM than fluff....and more meaningful too.

Yes, wives and husbands should mind their looks, weight, habits, clothing etc. and remember not to sacrifice their own appearance in order to provide for their families...but I would never sacrifice my family either to achieve "designer" status and the kind of materialism that would jeapardize the needs of the marriage as a unit so that I could walk down a street and be "noticed". It is a matter of balancing my personal needs with the needs of the others that I love. That doesn't mean I can never indulge myself...but I will do it within healthy parameters according to what my marriage can afford. If I'm or H is a doctor...well designer shoes are within that range...but if we live on a modest income...then the knock offs will have to do. Either way....I'm going to be attractive because that's what I project....not my clothes...but me.

Gawd... D-day will be 9 years ago in a few weeks !

My New Year ritual since D-Day has been to throw away anything but stellar-looking underwear and buy all new in January.

The reason? I was always putting my needs after everyone elses... especially undergarments that "no one" would see anyway ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> NO ONE but my HUSBAND, that is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And once I committed to recovery, I commited to beautiful underwear ... call me crazy.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> Gawd... D-day will be 9 years ago in a few weeks !

My New Year ritual since D-Day has been to throw away anything but stellar-looking underwear and buy all new in January.

The reason? I was always putting my needs after everyone elses... especially undergarments that "no one" would see anyway ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> NO ONE but my HUSBAND, that is <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

And once I committed to recovery, I commited to beautiful underwear ... call me crazy.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So I take it all "granny panties" were removed from your wardrobe? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Some people are missing my point. I believe that by taking a back seat, I set myself up to be devalued over the long haul. I used to laugh at the size of my wardrobe compared to how much space H took up. He didn't buy designer clothes either but he had a good job and needed good work clothes. I didn't work so why buy dressy clothes when I didn't go out much? Our Wedding cost $80Australian dollars, in full - in 1972. (it was an afternoon tea with a recycled wedding dress and fake flowers) We didn't go for a honeymood coz we were too poor. This is how I started married life, and you know that old saying; "start as you mean to go on"! I was very good at making very little go a long way.

This week, my daughter asked me continually why I don't spend more money on myself? I feel like I buy the things I want. You guys know I love swimming - and I have an impressive range of speedo's that make me feel good when I hit the pool. But the thought of buying a dress that cost the earth and I might only wear twice, is too stupid for me now.

But, my point is, that I let myself be known as a sound minded, steady reliable work horse who whould put up with anything. My H told me the otherday that he thought I'd get over it, if I discovered him having an A (and he didn't think her being half my age would enter the equation at all). It boils down to the fact that he pegged me for a general dogs body that would take any old sh*t he threw at me. And partly I think it's because I didn't demand enough attention, thru expecting my share of the family income for my personal needs and acting like I deserved to be considered - not over looked.

I'm sorry this discussion has bogged down to the cost of looking good. I thought I looked good enough in the few humble clothes I owned. In hindsight I know that I didn't.

Like Noodle says - at the end of the day, we are who we are, and I am not totally certain we can change much by dressing up - except to use some quality attire to boost our kicked and beaten ego's. And like I said, men do oogle the single women who spend money lavishly on themselves.

Bear04 I noticed your comment and think you are a typical example of what I'm getting at.

AN

I guess I'm wondering how many BSs here feel they allowed themselves to appear too 'ordinary', too 'there' for their S? Giving way to the belief that the BS isn't quite worth being faithful to.

Some of this makes me feel very emotional to admit to.

AN

At the risk of being a total geek, I've figured out that a very conservative cost to look nice for a year is around $1500. And yeah, for those of us on the bottom of the income scale who are trying to raise kids, that is a LOT of money. I went with Target type prices for most of the stuff, so this is what it costs to look just nice, not stylish. And I just realized that I'm not including some stuff like nail supplies, pantyhose, contact lenses or cute glasses, sunglasses, winter outerwear, bathing suits... You get the idea.


Panties 12 x $6.00 $72.00
Bras 3 x $20.00 $60.00
Slips 2 x $15.00 $30.00
Shoes 6 x $30.00 $180.00
Jeans 2 x $30.00 $60.00
Dress slacks 3 x $25.00 $75.00
Skirts 3 x $25.00 $75.00
Shorts 3 x $15.00 $45.00
Summer tops 4 x $15.00 $60.00
Sweaters 4 x $25.00 $100.00

Cosmetics
Foundation 2 x $15.00 $30.00
Blush 2 x $10.00 $20.00
Lip Liner 3 x $10.00 $30.00
Lipstick 3 x $10.00 $30.00
Eye Shadow 2 x $10.00 $20.00
Mascara 2 x $10.00 $20.00
Cleanser 2 x $10.00 $20.00
Moisturizer 3 x $15.00 $45.00
Toner 2 x $10.00 $20.00

Hair Care
Haircuts 8 x $40.00 $320.00
Color (self) 8 x $10.00 $80.00
Hairspray 2 x $10.00 $20.00
Gel 2 x $10.00 $20.00

Other Hair
Razors 52 x $1.00 $52.00
Shaving Gel 12 x $4.00 $48.00

$1,532.00

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by anyname:
<strong> I guess I'm wondering how many BSs here feel they allowed themselves to appear too 'ordinary', too 'there' for their S? Giving way to the belief that the BS isn't quite worth being faithful to.

Some of this makes me feel very emotional to admit to.

AN </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I definitely did. No doubt about it. I'll let you in on a secret.

Noodle <--- is very good at money.

I can live on practically nothing...seriously..and where did I learn this?

I'll let you in on another secret.

Noodle <--- had the honour of bearing witness as my Mother left her alcoholic husband [and my father] with five dollars to her name by the time she reached the state he is banned from [for holding our entire extended family and a few neighbors at gunpoint while drunk and high]. We stayed with the grandset for about 3 mo. Folks..there will never be a single day in my life that I am not gratefull that she took action as she did. She worked herself down to about 90 LBS..from a secretary to a multiply degreed exec second only to the owner of the multibillion dollar company..and know what else? Her standard of living never changed much between poor and really quite wealthy. Her money situation was temporary because it was external in nature. Her finances only needed the opportunity to catch up to her character. Now she could have pretty much anything she could imagine wanting..and finds she wants for nothing..because experiences such as this teach you what really is of value in life..and fancy cars ain't it. She gives more to charity than a lot of people make in a year. I have never been offended by lemmonmans stance on gifts..I hear it all too often.

During these years it was full time work..full time parent [I never came second..I used to fall asleep to the sound of her typing her homework out because from the time she came home from work..until the time I went to bed it was all about me] full time student.

I was schooled, groomed, lectured, and fine tuned. I have sat through more college classes than any eight year old I have ever met..and I was listening to what was going on..listening to the lectures..thinking about what was being said..seeing how people who accomplished greatness in life behaved and what they thought about various issues, what it cost them.

The thing about the butterflys that men [and women] look at on the street..is that there IS a pricetag. Some people truly CAN afford to support this lifestyle..but not most. Most people that have had to come only hairs away from sweating blood to be where they are..think very little of people who spend so lavishly..as though there will never be a time of leanness in their future. They will never become ill and need expensive medical intervention..they will never lose their job and need to rely on what they have saved. They are very much about the *now*..and that is very much up the WSs alley..that mode of thinking. That denial of future consequence.

At the same time..you WILL be judged on your appearance. When we did not have furniture to sit on..I was still dressed nicely. It is a powerfull feeling to walk into a room and have all eyes on you. Have it and you will notice when it leaves. Walk into a room wearing the clothes that you and your H are sharing because you are so young and poor and you will notice. That people do not automatically defer to you. People aren't quite as polite. Don't quite bend over backward as much. You can see the hardness at the corners of their mouths appear as they form their appearance based judgement. Notice the assumptions that they make.

When we had our daughter..it was just taken as a given that we were on welfare. We weren't. I had to correct on several occasions..and on most of them..the need for an eraser was established..they had written it down without even asking.

It never occured to them that we were poor because we were being responsible/accountable for our choices. When you are young and carrying your own insurance..you haven't got a lot left over for nail polish. If you spend what you have got left on nail polish..you are behaving very foolishly imo. People tend to live at or beyond their means..they do not [thanks in large part to credit based purchasing methods] have any real idea just what their means ARE. They do not KNOW what is reasonable..only what they can *get*.

H forgot these things for a time. He is like the Gollum, who forgot the taste of bread. Has only just remembered his name. That live fast die young lifestyle was his *precious* and he did grieve its loss even though he suffered at its hand.. ultimately he did realize its very limited value..especially when measured against its cost.

Nothing about me has changed..it is only that his eyesight has been restored. There is a purpose to sacrifice. We are building something here.

I AM ordinary and I AM here for him..and if he fails to value that, then he isn't good enough for me .

Noodle

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 11:46 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

Dobie - you geek! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />


Anyname - I get exactly what you mean. I would only change one comment which was made from "at the end of the day you are who you are" to "at the end of the day you are who ever you want to be". I believe this with all my heart. It sounds cliche from the old Moody Blues song but very true "whatever you want to be you will be in the end"

Noodle - I love your mothers story. An inspiration to be sure.

Dobie, You are absolutely right. You remind me why I gave up, for the most part. Btw, my daughter convinced me to buy some face powder for a better finish for my aging skin. I was astounded at the cost of it. I notice it wasn't on your list. I am not really convinced that I look any better for wearing it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Great list though!


:::Nothing about me has changed..it is only that his eyesight has been restored. There is a purpose to sacrifice. We are building something here.

Noodle. Your mother sounds like Erin Brokevich!! Had you ever realised the similarities?

As you know, I'm somewhat bitter that my sacrifices turned out badly with regards my M. However, recently it's dawned on me that a number of my choices were good ones. My daughter is doing quite well as a young doctor (she wants to specialise in oncology and going to work in the oldest and biggest cancer hospital in Britain) and last month my son surprised us with a first class honors degree in medical research at University (in cancer research).

I am now appreciating that I'm a lucky mommie - or did I do enough right things to help my kids achieve some success? If nothing else, I'm trying to count my blessings.


:::I AM ordinary and I AM here for him..and if he fails to value that, then he isn't good enough for me

Being cheated on doesn't initially give us that message. I do try to tell myself that what my H did was a failure on his part and not my failure. Regardless of who's failure it was, I am wearing it - so it feels like my failure. However, what you just said isn't quite true. You are not ordinary. You are anything but ordinary.

I laughed about the welfare mistake. It reminded me of when it happened to friends of ours. It's difficult to take the responsible course when the whole world around you is living in debt and appearing to have it all. We have reaped the benefit of years of good managment, but somehow it feels like the wheels fell off, just before the finish line. However, I didn't know any other way to live my life. Like you, I was trained by a good, honest hearted woman, my mother - who taught me "look after the pennies and the pounds will look after themselves". Not sure that I've done quite as well in that area with my children. Hmmm, you can't have everything though.....


AN

Hey Weaver, At the end of the day, I wanna be asleep. Small steps maybe, but I'm going to give it a try. It's 12.40am here. If you ever need encouragment I'm your woman. I am constantly trying to lift my game - just sometimes I get a bit overwhelmed by the task at hand. If you want me to look around for things here sometime - e.g. some lovely little French Connection jumpers for around $10US!!!! (my daughter left some in the shop for you!)

Goodnite!
an

AN,

What are little French Connection jumpers ? I'm sure I need some.

Actually I have bought so many clothes this winter that my NY's resolution is going to be NO MORE spending unless on food, gas or emergencies. I gotta get a grip on it now. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

AN,

I'm embarrassed to admit that I am not remotely familiar with the Erin Brokovitch story...something to do with Julia Roberts? [laughs] I'll have to take your word for it.

It wasn't pretty, you know. She was skin and bones from stress and grief. She cried every night for 10 years. She loved him and always second guessed herself..maybe he could get better..maybe ..maybe..but KNEW that maybe wasn't good enough.

I am amazed at the extent to which I was protected from all of this. Her difficult times were not difficult for me..I only realize in hindsight with children of my own, how frightenned..and how desperate she must have been. How lonely.

I enjoyed the lectures. In particular..I enjoyed the ones held at night in the museum of natural history. It was empty save for the class in the auditorium, and I had free run of the place. I was a quiet and well behaved child..I had 4 stories of museum with which to entertain myself. Noodle was on Safari! Probably gave the security staff something to laugh about.

She was younger then than I am now. Until she completed her first masters degree..she had nothing for herself. All excess went to me. How difficult..how sad..to have spent her youth with struggle. Surrounded by women who are able to assauge their vanity while she was practically in rags when not in her very few business clothes. To be hungry and know that your lunch will not fill your belly. To uphold a standard at any cost to yourself. This is courage. This is grace. I could do no less without bringing shame onto myself. I have been given much..much ought now be expected from me.

I agree that the message given the BS is not one any sane person would accept carte blanche. I also know how difficult it is to dismiss it. In part because..if we failed..it meant we had some control..and nothing is scarier than lack of control..yet the unvarnished truth reflects just this.

Noodle

:::I'm embarrassed to admit that I am not remotely familiar with the Erin Brokovitch story...something to do with Julia Roberts? [laughs] I'll have to take your word for it.

Noodle, I'm embarrassed to admit that I've watched the movie (with Julie Roberts) at least four, maybe five times. And I know I will watch it again sometime. You could say that Erin got lucky. But most people know we make our own luck - but without her naturally inquisitive mind and a caring attitude to people in need, she would not have altered the course of her own miserable life. (3 small children fully dependant on her - and no qualifications to provide anything but a living on the breadline existance for them).

Your mother was formed in the same mould as Erin Brokevich. Their intelligence and dignaty were at total odds with their circumstances. Their determination to survive lead them to achieve the extraordinary.

Please watch the movie some time. (or borrow the book from the library) I would not normally recommend this for any other reason than the story is both shocking and inspirational. But in your case, I suspect you will find yourself inside the story at various stages. If you decide to give the movie a try, the real Erin Brokevich appears briefly in the film as the waitress in a cafe.

AN

I agree with ark.

I spend about 1/2 of a months salary per year on clothes, accessories and shoes, because I buy well-made, but not designer, simple clothes in neutral colors of black, beige, and navy. My family will usually buy me a nice scarf or two at Christmas time, to add a little color. I generally have my suits made to order, in durable but attractive fabric, and spend the money on good shoes and bags. But a quality bag lasts years, and the best have guarantees. When my shoes begin to look tired, I take them to the repairman to be renewed.

My secretary earns a lot less than I do. But she always is neat as a pin, healthy, well-groomed, and fit. So she always looks attractive.

I don't think we have to buy designer clothes to look nice. Just the personal pride to keep fit, neat, and repair our clothing, replacing when it's too far gone, makes a difference, and doesn't have to cost a lot.

Noodle,

I loved the story of your mother, I thought I would share one of mine.

My mother and yours were cut from the same cloth. She had to struggle and sacrifice to provide both for me and her 5 brothers and sisters since her father was ill. We lived in a two room house...all 10 of us...and anyone who could work...did. My mother was a heartstopping beauty and made extra money modelling on weekends...her face, her energy was so striking...I'm not sure folks actually saw her clothes sometimes. But I have a lovely story about "fashion" and money, because she had a way of creating her own style.

Back in the 60's a certain style of dress became popular. It was called a "tent" dress. It was apparently cut from a "round" of cloth....worn very short which was the style and it hung with fullness and had a "swing" movement because of the cut. I had a very "mod" version....green with large white polka dots....it was one of my favorite dresses.

My father was a medical resident at this time. He made 300 dollars a month. So in spite of the fact that eventually, he would become a wealthy doctor (married to an OW) at that time....things were very very lean. However, it was during the holidays and my mother and father had been invited to the home of the dean of medicine and mother had nothing suitable to wear....and no money to spend on a party dress. Well, she went to Kreske's...which was a low priced kind of dollar store. She bought a beautiful but inexpensive round lace table cloth. With a few well placed slits...she turned that tablecloth into a beautiful tent dress which was all the rage at the time. Evidently, everyone at the party kept asking her "where on earth she had bought it?????".

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Necessity IS the mother of invention!

Thank you for sharing your story.

Hi Anyname - I'm back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . This is a fascinating thread because I know my sacrificing for the sake of the family made a difference to us. And yes, I considered my husband shallow for his views upon DD. But he's not a huge factor in my life at present and I have been making more of an effort in my appearance, and looking good outside makes me feel good inside.

My WH's A happened at a time when, for the first time in our marriage, we were experiencing financial woes. I am brilliant at cutting corners and making sacrifices and, in an effort to make sure my girls weren't going without, it was me who suffered. Hardly bought myself a thing for about 3 years so the wardrobe was getting a bit boring. I can't help it. I am a sensible girl. Brought up on a shoestring and can make great meals on a tight budget.

So where did it get me? On DD I was told what a great mother I was but a lousy wife (he seemed to forget he'd become a lousy husband but I'm told it was fogspeak). There was no mention of how noble I was. Now, I've never met OW but I know she is a career woman who probably turned up for her dates looking fab. I was told I had no ambition which stung like hell. I have followed his career around the world and never moaned. In fact, if I had shared his ambition, our daughters might never have seen their parents. He seldom got home before 8pm.

Now after all this crap, my appearance and my clothes have become important to me once again. I don't have a lot to spend but I need my shopping fix once a month (or more!) Times have a changed. Still can't bear to be in debt but will ALWAYS make sure I can treat myself to something/anything new each month. TT

Hi Anyname - I'm back <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> . This is a fascinating thread because I know my sacrificing for the sake of the family made a difference to us. And yes, I considered my husband shallow for his views upon DD. But he's not a huge factor in my life at present and I have been making more of an effort in my appearance, and looking good outside makes me feel good inside.

My WH's A happened at a time when, for the first time in our marriage, we were experiencing financial woes. I am brilliant at cutting corners and making sacrifices and, in an effort to make sure my girls weren't going without, it was me who suffered. Hardly bought myself a thing for about 3 years so the wardrobe was getting a bit boring. I can't help it. I am a sensible girl. Brought up on a shoestring and can make great meals on a tight budget.

So where did it get me? On DD I was told what a great mother I was but a lousy wife (he seemed to forget he'd become a lousy husband but I'm told it was fogspeak). There was no mention of how noble I was. Now, I've never met OW but I know she is a career woman who probably turned up for her dates looking fab. I was told I had no ambition which stung like hell. I have followed his career around the world and never moaned. In fact, if I had shared his ambition, our daughters might never have seen their parents. He seldom got home before 8pm.

Now after all this crap, my appearance and my clothes have become important to me once again. I don't have a lot to spend but I need my shopping fix once a month (or more!) Times have a changed. Still can't bear to be in debt but will ALWAYS make sure I can treat myself to something/anything new each month. TT