Lemonman -

Hi again. I think I see that your opinions are starting to sway some of the people here. Check out Fighting-alone-again's recent posts. Plus there are several others.

I really respect and appreciate your input. However (you knew there was a however, right?), I would like to ask you a question as a physician.

There are many, many, many people here who go through the same scenario. We see it over and over and over. A good spouse, for maybe 5, 10, 20, or 35 years suddenly finds an OP and completely changes character. Then they all do and say the same things. It can almost be predicted.

Do you think this is a character flaw that was hidden the whole marriage? Or could it be that the chemicals in the brain have changed them?

You may say that it does not matter. But do you think it is logical to leave a relationship that was good for many years over a change in brain chemistry? Or if not something physically in the brain, why did the character flaws suddenly present themselves?

Love ya - keep posting.

I am not lemonman, but I can give my opinion..AFter speaking with my WH many times about "what happened to you" I can say that is that one weak moment and everything around them changes...once they step over that line, that is it...I dont believe it is a character flaw that was hidden thru the whole marriage, but rather a mistake they make at a point in their lives when the marriage is dull, dry, bad, good, whatever the reason be in THEIR minds and then they start to rewrite the history so to speak...

I believe that in my WH's case, that he has BECOME what he is NOW because of this A...as I have told him, we used to be open books to each other, but for the past year, he has been one closed book to me, so secretive, lie after lie, that now he is INCAPABLE of being that person he used to be. does this make sense...ARGH, I have such a hard time putting what i am TRYING to say on the board...that is why I am so often misinterrpreted...and I cant even spell the word <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I guess my point is that they change themselves and so does the OP becaus of the actions they have chosen to take...therefore making it almost impossible to even tell the truth again...sad, so sad, but true...

Did I even answer your question, or did I just ramble <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Lemonman -

Hi again. I think I see that your opinions are starting to sway some of the people here. Check out Fighting-alone-again's recent posts. Plus there are several others.

I really respect and appreciate your input. However (you knew there was a however, right?), I would like to ask you a question as a physician.

There are many, many, many people here who go through the same scenario. We see it over and over and over. A good spouse, for maybe 5, 10, 20, or 35 years suddenly finds an OP and completely changes character. Then they all do and say the same things. It can almost be predicted.

Do you think this is a character flaw that was hidden the whole marriage? Or could it be that the chemicals in the brain have changed them?

You may say that it does not matter. But do you think it is logical to leave a relationship that was good for many years over a change in brain chemistry? Or if not something physically in the brain, why did the character flaws suddenly present themselves?

Love ya - keep posting. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Believer:

You do realize that I am a surgeon and not a "real doctor" right? Brain chemistry, neurons...that is for the internists and cerebral guys to deal with....not a moron like me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I think you asked a good question and one I don't think I have an answer to (without BS you). I will definitely concede that there is some type of neurohormonal change (there I go again using words I don't even know how to spell) that goes on in the early stages of love. If I could "bottle" that feeling and sell it, I would be a rich man. I think that "feeling" can make many a man/woman do things very out of "character".......TO A POINT. There comes a time when you can't blame the neurohormonal infuence....That is my problem with the "fog" theory. Everyone here probably thinks I am some perfectionsist that can't understand human frailty. Contrary to popular belief, I FORGAVE AN INFIDEL ACT AGAINST MY MARRIAGE. I can, and I concede that we all make mistakes even committing a despicable act of infidelity. I think you can contribute part of these actions to the "fog", but any way you slice it, there will ALWAYS be some part of character that is FLAWED for this to happen. I am by no means perfect....BUT, I can categorically 100% PROCLAIM that I will NEVER cheat on my spouse...NEVER. This doesn't make me a better person than a WS, but this is just a FACT. My character may lack in other areas (compassion, spirtiuality, forgiveness) but not in this area. I think the man who has been married and has been a "good husband and father" for 30 years and then cheats and CONTINUALLY does so after the "one slip up"....LACKS character. He just may have never showed it in the previous 30 years. Blame it some on the fog if you will, but please don't let his character walk away unquestioned. This happens FAR TOO MUCH HERE. Lets blame all the f-ing aliens and motherships !!!!!!!!!!! I am not sure I answered your question. I have strong convictions about this, and if I was a BS on here who was trying to reconcile with a WS (multiple offenses including false recoveries) I would really not like to hear my opinions either. I understand all of that. I am not a popular guy on here because of this, but that is all ok, you all are stuck with me for the time being. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

One thing I will say is that my time here has shown me that INFIDELITY is usually NEVER the reason for a divorce. In almost every single instance here, the WS could have EASILY got back his/her family and "stayed married". I was WAY WRONG about this. Yes, I know this board is only a small cross section of the whole spectrum of infidelity, but other boards that I frequent prove the same.

I am living proof of this also. IN A MILLION years I would have never believed that I would have taken my wife back after SHE LET some other guy ***** *** **** ** ***WHILE WE WERE STILL MARRIED....(sorry to be so crude)...but even I did. Reflecting on all of this blows my mind sometimes.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 04:28 PM: Message edited by: Justuss ]</small>

lemmonman - I think you're missing the point when the "alien abduction" theory is expressed.

It's not used as a cause, but rather as a description of the behavior. No other Earthly explanation will do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'm not a doctor, surgeon, nor a brain chemist - but there are plenty of professional views that what's taking place in the "chemistry" of WSs in the fog is plain ole dopamine - the love drug, the "feel good" drug. Similar effects as real drugs and alcohol with regards to a diminshed "oops" response.

See the thread with the topic including "Oops" that I'll bump up in a minute.

OK guy, I finally gotcha. I know this for sure - you are not lacking in compassion. Your posts prove that. You have continually helped others here, even if you don't subscribe to the MB principles.

But I forgot that you are not a REAL doctor. Could you ask some of your colleagues about the chemical thing? Maybe you could bottle it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> lemmonman - I think you're missing the point when the "alien abduction" theory is expressed.

It's not used as a cause, but rather as a description of the behavior. No other Earthly explanation will do. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I get the alien point, I am just being a little satirical with it. I think the "fog" gets too much credence for explaining the behaviors of WS. I know all about Serotonin, Dopamine, NE, etc... BUT once again, I do NOT suscribe to this being the MAJOR domiant factor in the behavior of these WS. I am by no means an expert, and I am sure there are more than enough behavioral psychologists who could support these theories....all the more power to them. In the end, you have what you have..........A Wayward Spouse WHO CONTINUES TO BETRAY.

Believer....I will be sure and ask some colleagues about this phenomenon. I am actually interested in it also. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

BELIEVER--- I think that definetely something changes in your brain!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
I never thought I could have an affair. Even if my childhood was not rosy or so good. Even with my personality flaws I never thought I could do that to my husband, especially after so many years married.

When I started talking to OM, slowly everything in me started to change. I became more liberal, I became practically another woman!!!
So, there has to be something there that changes, even if Dr.Lemonman does not believe the so called "fog"!!!

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but any way you slice it, there will ALWAYS be some part of character that is FLAWED for this to happen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I need to chime in and say.

I had an A because I have character flaws. I have been on MB for months. I have dug deep within myself to find out why this happened. I now understand much about myself. In the beginning my H was taking much blame for this. Our M wasn't the best, he wasn't a good H.

But you know what I realized about a month ago, I am soooooo flawed and that is why this happened.

I am a people pleaser, I can't say NO, even to another man making a pass at me.

I am a conflict avoider, therefore never told my H I was not happy. Never told OM's W, my friend, about her H's passes.

I have low self esteem. He made me feel pretty. Yup, he made me feel pretty, don't worry, I know how sad and pathetic that is.

I felt no worth. He adored me, (manipulated me) and made me feel worthy.

I was so incredibly weak minded and so easily manipulated.

I absolutely had character flaws!!!!!!

My 2 cents, please leave my change on the table. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

KY

You go Myrta -

I have to believe that this is something in the brain. There have been too many good people that have been married too many years, and suddenly "fell".

My husband, as a case in point, was a good man. I knew him for 10 years BEFORE we started going out. He was admired by everyone. He was honest, caring, and never had a bad word for anyone. He would treat everyone the same - from the president to the lowest homeless person.

Now he has turned into a person I do not know, and would not wish to know.

<small>[ December 14, 2004, 04:13 PM: Message edited by: believer ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong>
When I started talking to OM, slowly everything in me started to change. I became more liberal, I became practically another woman!!!
So, there has to be something there that changes, even if Dr.Lemonman does not believe the so called "fog"!!!

MYRTA </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh $hit, I can smell a Lemonman lynching coming.....LOL. Believer, thanks for getting me into this NOW <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ...and to think I ALMOST pulled off a MB PC day. Good grief.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kyellow4:
I had an A because I have character flaws</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Love your bold direct honesty !!!

LOVE IT !!!!!

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> You go Myrta -

I have to believe that this is something in the brain. There have been too many good people that have been married too many years, and suddenly "fell".

My husband, as a case in point, was a good man. I knew him for 10 years BEFORE </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">FOR THE RECORD, I will concede that there is some component of "brain chemistry dynamics" here, but I think we all just disagree on the % of culpabiltiy (once again, I am using a word I can't spell or know the meaning to).

LM

This is a tough one.....
I do think there is a character flaw in the WS. I also believe in the FOG.
My WH definitely has character flaws and is still in the FOG bigtime!
I guess I'm just now realizing how many character flaws my WH had all along. Hind sight is 20/20!
I see more of his mother in him day by day. I think there is always something there and then when it's triggered they "lose it".

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
(once again, I am using a word I can't spell or know the meaning to).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bookmark this Lemonman

Pep

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by TreeReich:
<strong> I think there is always something there and then when it's triggered they "lose it". </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BINGO....I wish I had the ability to express myself like so many of you. This is what I wanted to say really.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Pepperband:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by lemonman:
(once again, I am using a word I can't spell or know the meaning to).</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">bookmark this Lemonman

Pep </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks Pep, I appreciate the helping hand. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Lemonman - sorry, the lynching is here! At least until you have to go save someone. Yikes!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by believer:
<strong> Lemonman - sorry, the lynching is here! At least until you have to go save someone. Yikes! </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> I have no clinical duties untill the weekend, so I can't even use that as an excuse.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had an A because I have character flaws </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I agree with that, but not everybody that has character flaws have affairs.
Some people with the worst character flaws, would never, even if they have the worst spouse in the world have an affair.

When I became involved with OM, there were many things working on my brain,(I think)so when I started talking to him, my brain was in a weaken state, and his smooth words had an effect on my brain. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

I am usually extremely strong willed and I never let ANYONE convince me of anything that I dont believe is right!!! But I was like "putty" with his words to me. It was like a hypnotizing sublimimal words!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:I am usually extremely strong willed and I never let ANYONE convince me of anything that I dont believe is right!!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ya think <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> ???

ROFLMAOPIMP <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Myrta... I've gotta love you! You're cracking me up... what a pistol!

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />