</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by worthatry:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:
<strong>How can ANYONE say they would NEVER have an A...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like Pep and I have already said it > I will never have an affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

(This is aside from the technicality that I'm not married.)

This is based a LOT on what I've learned from experiencing one as a BS + the fact that I had plenty of the "recipe" before that to have one and I didn't.

WAT </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I would never steal a car.

I would never shoot a moose.

I would never strip in public. (oops, not true, did that once) I would NEVER AGAIN strip in public.

I think it is valid for MYRTA (or any other FWS) to say "I would NEVER have another affair."

We take our WS back based on that premise ---> that they have learned from their mistake! And, if we choose to, we can learn from the mistakes of others.

So, why can't I say "never" too?

Pep

<small>[ December 15, 2004, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

I would never have another affair!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> I had learned a very valuable lesson with the affair though.
Yes, I do agree with my husband about self esteem problems that lead me to having the affair. All my life I had self-esteem problems, not because what I was worth as a person, but because my childhood was crappy and I had bad examples all around me. I thought I was going to be different though, and I almost WAS until the affair happened.

I had kept my husband interest intact for so many years. And I took that for granted. For only that reason, I should had kept my self-esteem really high!!! Because I had kept the best man in the world interested all these years. My husband is a very interesting man, he is a Renaissance Man. He is a physician , a musician, a golfer, a husband a father, etc,etc. And if I have such an interesting man interested, it must be because I am not so bad myself!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

So, yes, all those reasons for having affairs are valid, it could be one,it could be two, or it could be all!!! But they are all valid, and there are not reasons to do such a vile act, but we are human beings and we fall for the wrong reasons!!

But one thing for sure I can assure everyone here!!! I WILL NEVER,EVER, WILL HAVE ANOTHER AFFAIR!!!!! Even if my self-esteem is non=existant!!!!

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong> WORTHATRY---I used to say those exact same words, but 29 years into my marriage, I had one!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


MYRTA </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm not you.

WAT

WORTHATRY----

REALLY??? I THOUGHT you and I were the same person, just using different names!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

MYRTA

I will never have another affair.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ALL OF THE RESPONSIBILITY IS ON THE WSs SHOULDERS.

This was an independent decision..I didn't get a vote, so I bear no responsibility.

Unmet ENs? Boo frickity Hoo we ALL have them. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">1 month ago, I would have been so insulted, I thought I had it all figured out, until Pep started a thread on conflict avoidance.

Now, I fully agree. I was so mistreated in my M, my H was not good to me, loved me, but neglected, disrespected, and sexual abused me.

Yes, he is at fault for mistreating me, he is a bright man, he knew right from wrong, but chose to abuse me for years.

Had I spoke up, had I been truthful with him, had I not avoided conflict, we could have fixed our M without me having an A.

I had an A, because I have character flaws. I was the frog boiling in the luke warm water, because of my character flaws. I was not strong enough to say no, even when morally I knew better, because of my character flaws.

Pep and Wat can say they would not have an A. I'm guessing if their EN's weren't being met, they would say so. If they started having feelings for somebody else, I'm guessing they would blow them off, not being afraid of hurting their feelings.

They have a strong character, I did not, but I'm going to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kyellow4:
<strong> I will never have another affair.


....a strong character, I did not, but I'm going to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good for you kyjelly4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I believe you.

As for me, the fact is that my ENs were NOT being met and I failed to address it the right way. Hopefully I have learned from that now and in addition to ME not having an affair, my SO never will either. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Hopefully I have learned from that now and in addition to ME not having an affair, my SO never will either.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">and I believe you.

It's a wonderful thing we have learned, just a very painful lesson we experienced.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by kyellow4:
Pep and Wat can say they would not have an A. I'm guessing if their EN's weren't being met, they would say so. If they started having feelings for somebody else, I'm guessing they would blow them off, not being afraid of hurting their feelings. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, in reality, some of this is due to maturity (read "old") and life experience to draw upon. When I was in my 30s I was a much different woman. I made enough mistakes at a younger age that keep me from entering troubled waters at an older age.

Pep

I never had an affair---------- Was tempted as a young man but would not follow through because I don't know how to lie very well. It was also not a big deal to me because my wife met my ENs and I had no self-esteem issues.

Now I have low self-esteem (as a result of the A), but my wife keeps meeting my ENs. If my ENs were not met it would all come down to whether I am able to lie or not. This is the crux of the issue----ONE CANNOT HAVE AN AFFAIR WITHOUT LYING. This is where childhood comes into play. In essence this is the main difference between my wife and I. She received no guidance as a child and saw bad examples of behavior growing up.

The above are things that we all struggle with-------- it is not black and white and I could end up doing the same mistake myself. It maybe a little more difficult, but the allure of the opposite sex will always be a powerful force.

BTW, I AM KEEPING MY WIFE!!!!!!!!!!!

I was about to respond just as WAT has..but alas..the school bus arriveth and waiteth for no man <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Yeah..it's a vicious cycle. I get it. I embrace it. Two people. Two choices. He mistreated you..his choice. You allowed it. Your choice. No one respected or enforced their own boundaries..wackiness ensued.

Ditto. I have been blessed/cursed with the ability to recognize patterns and so I saw him falling waaay before he hit ground. Did nothing. *boom* His choice. My choice.

Now we all get to live with it. If we learned from it we truly can be sure that it won't happen again. Change has occurred. The weaknesses, while valid and probably permanent [know any perfect people?] have been addressed.

It isn't about J'accuse! It is about self awareness.

Noodle

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now, I fully agree. I was so mistreated in my M, my H was not good to me </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is not always the case. I treated my wife quite well and my only mistake was that I entered that phase of marriage where things become more relaxed and calm and one is not pressed anymore.

BTW, my daughter has an old childhood friend who has been unfaithful to her boyfriend many times despite the fact that the BF is a VERY NICE MAN. She is insecure and has low self-esteem--- she is a classic. So my daughter talks to her and has no clue why this girl is unfaithful. It is obvious that the infidelity has nothing to do with the behavior of the BF.

Actually there is extensive research done by well known and very prestigious professionals. Here's a brief synopsis of what Helen Fisher has to say in her most recent book, Why We Love.

There are three states of what we call romantic love in our society. They are all designed to keep the human race alive and genetically healthy on the planet. They can occur simultaneously, one can lead to another, or they can happen completely independently. With the exception of one (which I'll talk about in a sec) they can be felt for more than one person at a time.

These three states create emotional feelings that are driven by the chemicals that occur in the brain. Those chemicals make us feel something towards the person who triggered them - and those feelings are what we call love.

The first is lust - this is the drive that makes us make babies. This keeps the human race going. I think we all get what this one is.

The second is romantic love - the feeling that is characterized by the need to be with someone or talk to them all the time. It is an obsessive state - when we can't stop thinking about the other person. This is the state that can only be felt for one person at a time.

Romantic love lasts for about 3 years (without intervention). Its purpose is to keep the makers of the babies together during the pregnancy and the early childhood years so that they young are not eaten by marauding tigers.

The third stage is attachment. This is the deep contentment, warm, connected, feelings we have for each other. This stage lasts for 20+ years and is designed to keep parents together through the late childhood and teenage years - (when we wish they had been eaten by tigers... ) to provide for the offspring until they can take care of themselves.

What happens in an affair is that the romantic drive is triggered and the feelings are so intense that they overwhelm and outweigh the feelings of attachment. This is why people having affairs almost without fail say, "I love you, but I'm not in love with you..." They are comparing the intensity of the chemically driven obsession with the warm and loving attachment they have for their mate.

But attachment is the reason they can't simply walk away from the marriage. Attachment - as its name implies - goes very deep. Lust we can destroy - we all know that ! Romantic passion - ditto . But attachment - that's another thing entirely. Attachment is forever.

That's why old lovers pose the greatest danger to a marriage and why it is so crucial that affair partners permanently end all contact. Attachment will keep open a pathway to lust and romantic love and be a threat to the marriage.

How to get over a lover? End all contact. Let the chemicals clear out of the brain. And then replace them with chemistry triggered by someone else - hopefully a spouse.

The other thing to consider is that an affair is new and exciting. We can't fully recreate that novelty with our mate. But we can do things to trigger the same types of brain chemistry and therefore those feelings - if we're willing to do the work.

Romantic love - the obsessive-can't-think-can't-work feeling is not possible to sustain 24/7 long term. It's too metabolically expensive. We can trigger it in bursts and we can be deeply in love and fulfilled with feelings of attachment.
~~~~

As Harley (Dr. Bill - the founder and brillant brain behind MB) has said many many many times - we are ALL hardwired to have an affair. It is in our physiological makeup - the purpose being to keep our genetics moving forward into the future.

The problem is not so much character flaws as it is sheer ignorance and arrogance. How many here understood the risky behaviors that are the stepping stones to an affair before finding themselves caught up in the nightmare of one? Either leg of the triangle?

When we talk about risks to a marriage and avoiding them in order to protect the fidelity to the marriage vows we are universally met with disbelief, disdain, defensiveness, and excuses as to why doing so is impossible. I'm talking about stuff like -

Do not spend nights away from each other - a very basic MB rule. That means if you travel for work your spouse travels with you. If you work nights then your spouse works nights too so you have the same sleep/wake/work schedule. Or vice versa.

Spend a MINIMUM of 15 hours a week together giving each other your undivided attention - That means if you have to give up volleyball, PTA, coaching the kids' soccer team, the promotion at work, volunteering at church, mowing the lawn, you do so in order to put your marriage first. (There's also a newly defined (it's always been there but it's getting more attention lately) MB rule to spend an additional 15 hours per week in family commitment time, but that's a different topic for a different day.

Avoid close conversations with people of your sexual persuasion - That means you don't talk with the cute guy at the next desk about the bad argument you had with your spouse last night. You don't share that your kid is failing at school. You don't share your greatest joy at being accepted to grad school. You only share that you love your spouse and you are committed to your marriage.

Avoid social situations that put you with people of your sexual persuasion and that do not include your spouse - That means skipping the "grads only" part of your HS or college reunion. Avoiding the Friday afternoon drinks after work unless your spouse comes too. Avoiding recreational activities with people of your sexual persuasion unless your spouse is involved as well and your primary recreational partner.

What we know now about the physiological nature of the mating/pairing drive really debunks the idea that infidelity only happens because of neglect or character flaws. Although those certainly can be contributing factors and even causes in some cases more likely it's simply a comparison of the high of infatuation to the deeper less flashy attachment. As Shirley Glass has shown over years of impeccable research, affairs happen to very good, stable, happy marriages. They happen because we don't understand the risks, we don't take them seriously, and we put our marriages at risk because our biochemically driven emotions are stronger than our ability to remain rational and ethical.

C

<small>[ December 16, 2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: cerri ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by cerri:
<strong> They happen because we don't understand the risks, we don't take them seriously, and we put our marriages at risk because our biochemically driven emotions are stronger than our ability to remain rational and ethical.

C </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually Cerri, I am in full agreement with all of the above..and it is this bit right here..which you yourself proclaim to be on final analysis the true "cause" of affairs..to BE the character flaws, or failures. We don't understand the risks..we don't take them seriously. People who both understand and take it seriously can claim with great certainty that they will NEVER have an affair. They have decided to be faithfull..have educated themselves to be faithfull, have made infidelity a literal impossibility within what we understand to be it's roots.

I did it. I made it my business to know how to be faithfull.

What I did not do was insist that my H do the same.

That was my failure.

Noodle

Cerri:

As usual great post!


I have posted many times about the allure of a NEW person. I have concluded the NEW is an aphrodisiac and as you said it can never be replicated with the spouse of many years who is not NEW anymore.

In my lifetime I only had sex with my wife and I have no way of comparing her to anyone else. Lets pretend that I start to have sex with another woman who shows me a passion and motivation to have intercourse that is 10 times greater than with my wife. I am not saying the woman may be a better lover, person, or even as good looking. However this person has the NEW which elicits an enormous level of sexual arousal (I know this to be true from my wife's experience with OM).

So the question is:

Once the wayward spouse has experienced the NEW how can he or she ever return to the OLD of the betrayed spouse? As you said the BS can replicate everything regarding romance except the NEW. I have the feeling that the marriage can never be what it was. In the back of their mind the WSs will always remember the sensation with NEW and that this was associated with a much higher level of sexual arousal.

After D-day I told my wife that I could not understand why she wanted to return to the marriage. By instinct I knew that I could never offer the NEW. In fact I even said that if I experience that NEW myself I would be a goner.

How does one go back after reaching Nirvana?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Stan-ley:
How does one go back after reaching Nirvana? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It was NOT nirvana.

It was born of lies and deceit.

Nirvana is heavenly. Affairs are a living hell.

You romanticize your wife's affair too much.

I recommend you stop.

Pep

cerri:

A great post, 2 be sure!

I especially glommed on2 the part about spending time 2gether and not being away on business without my W.

I'm away on business this week without my W... ...HOWEVER, I've called her (or she's called me) at least once, sometimes 2 or 3 times, each day.

I just talked 2 her for about 10 minutes. ...about whatever was on her/my mind. It was goodness.

-ol' 2long

Stanley ... I highly recommend you to read "Passionate Marriage" by Schnarch.

You will understand and be ready to give and recieve intimacy and sexual love as it develops in a long term marriage ---> if you read this book.

Pep

Pepperband:

I tend to be very pessimistic about this ordeal.

At one point I advised my wife to go live with OM until the NEW became OLD. In my mind that was the only way of not being compared to the NEW (since I was the OLD). I also figured that during that time of separation I could become the NEW again by simply being away for so long.

And that Pepper is wacky foggy thinking by a BH!

I will ask Myrta to get the book as my Xmas present. I certainly don’t want anything else.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> cerri:

A great post, 2 be sure!

I especially glommed on2 the part about spending time 2gether and not being away on business without my W.

I'm away on business this week without my W... ...HOWEVER, I've called her (or she's called me) at least once, sometimes 2 or 3 times, each day.

I just talked 2 her for about 10 minutes. ...about whatever was on her/my mind. It was goodness.

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My point exactly about A)Not giving the risks serious consideration and B) Not doing everything humanly possible to avoid them.

Much like our physical health, most of us don't get serious about nutrition and exercise until we are hit with catastrophic illness. Seems to me that if you've been through the nightmare of infidelity you'd be more willing to take extraordinary precautions - but it seems most are not.

C

Maturity and most of all – Commitment…

A NeverWS can resist any temptation; moreover, if committed to M – temptation is an un-known in their life. 'New' has no true value, because 'New' doesn’t give fulfillment as 'Old' gives, and a committed one is looking it all in the long run.

A WS… … comes back to 'Old' when becomes aware that 'New', in a while, would be much Older than 'Old'…