Michael, there are some very serious problems here that need to be addressed by intensive counseling if she is hitting on young boys to demonstrate her prowess. That is a very destructive influence for you and the kids. She has emotional problems that cannot be fixed by marriage counseling or though Marriage Builders. You do realize this, right?

Does she have a drinking problem?

Michael,

If your WW does not see the importance of a NC letter TO YOU and refuses,seeing it as pointless,she has not learned too much if she is actually here posting.The letter signifies an ending to the adultery and is a major gesture on her part that says to you she is serious.Of course it can be broken but if you both write and review an NC letter and sign it,it's a common start to grow from.

I agree with Mel on this one.I sense this is already going too fast.What happened to focusing on the home and kids first? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Your WW has unloaded on you rapidly and now she is running the show.Look at what you wrote on the 23rd.And now....

O

<small>[ February 25, 2005, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Michael, I just want to let you know I saw your request on my other thread to read this thread and provide input. I have read this thread and I have the following to say regarding your situation:

First, I believe your W is sincere when she says she is sorry and remorseful about what she has done... It seems deep down in her heart she desperately wants to do all the right things and make amends to you, the boys and the M and I think you must give her a chance, BUT it is clear that she lacks the necessary strength, self-control, self-discipline (and many other factors) to actually do all these things and make a success of it. By this I don’t say that you W can’t overcome these issues…SHE CAN! There is hope for every person on this earth who really do want to change and become a better person, but in your W’s case, it is clear that there is very serious underlying problems and emotional issues that needs to be address through intensive counseling & therapy first... I agree with Mel and others on this very strongly. I believe personal recovery comes before marital recovery (or at least it must goes hand in hand). You can’t try to “fix” a M if one (or both) of the partners is broken - the person(s) needs to be “fix” first before the M can be recovered and rebuild successfully. Okay, I understand NO one is perfect and ALL people have some personal issues and baggage in one or other degree, but in your W’s case the issues IS very serious… I also think your W’s personal problems & weaknesses is the reason why she struggle so much to break this addiction to OM and to give up all contact with him. Every addiction is very hard to break, but if a person doesn’t have of the necessary tools within themselves to break it and heal from it, it is so much more difficult… You see, on this point your W is not strong enough to do this by herself and she needs professional guidance, help and support on this as well. I agree with Octobergirl, you W must understand the importance of a NC letter to YOU and a NC letter is the first step of the WS to overcome the OP addiction. I remember during my own withdrawal and recovery, the help, guidance and support of my individual counselor (a great woman and Christian who’ve also become a great friend and confidant of mine!) was one of the key elements (together with the support from my H and these boards) to help me to commit myself to NC and stay in NC with XOM. Individual counseling (and sometimes medication too for depression etc.) is of a big help when the WS goes through withdrawal. It’s good if your W reads and post here and marriage counseling is very important, but your W needs individual counseling too – I can’t stress enough the importance of this! My suggestion: Maybe the person who does the marriage counseling can do the individual counseling/therapy on your W too. I think this can be a good option because a person who can do both will have all the facts and can see the “whole” picture. And Michael, even if you feel the need to also go for individual counseling (or if you just feel the need to talk to a trusting, professional, outside person face-to-face), the same counselor will be a very good and helpful option. You’ve gone through a lot of pain and hurt yourself Michael and you have endured SO much during these past few months… The help and support you receive from these boards and all the caring people here is good, but I think it can just do you some good to also speak to a trusting, professional, Christian person face-to face if you feel like it... Please don’t hesitate to do this if you feel the need Michael. Anyway, I think you’re doing the right thing here to take care of your home and kids first and take care of the safety of you and your children... You don’t need to rush into anything Michael. Your W needs counseling first and you can still morally support her without letting her move in yet. I think the “10 months option” is a good idea.

I will post again on Monday and from now on I will follow your threads and give my help, opinions, support or advice where I can. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

In the meantime you can read this thread for some encouragement (I think you will appreciate this thread because from you earlier posts, I can see you like poems and inspiring stuff! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ).

You can also take a look at this thread: A quick start guide about WITHDRAWAL. This thread will be helpful and give you some insight into what your W will go through as soon as she stops NC with OM. It will also make you see how the withdrawal and fog sometimes goes hand in hand. The thread contains some quotes from Dr Harley and I have also given some ideas for the BS to help their WS during the process withdrawal.

Blessings and prayers,
Suzet

Michael,

Prayers are with you.

The Fruits of the Spirit:

Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Self-Control, Goodness, Gentleness, Faithfulness.

NCWalker

Last night I spent some time on the phone with a fellow MB'er and I can't thank him enough for his kind words and his understanding tone and how serious he was about helping me deal with this. All of you have been awesome and all of you offer excellent advice and I have no doubt in my mind that if it had not been for all of you I would have taken my life that one time because of how much this A has killed my soul.

----------------------------------------------------

MelodyLane Asked:


Does she have a drinking problem?

I wish she did have some kind of Drug or Drinking problem, but she does not. This is just the Affair and it's deep fog taking it's toll on her. I have seen a diffrence in her since she started posting on here. I don't know what road I will take with me and WW but I do feel I need to take some time and have NC with her until I figure this out.


Octobergirl Asked: What happened to focusing on the home and kids first.


I got caught up in her trying and forgot for a brief moment that this is not about me, it's about the children, and some of you feel she deserves this chance because she is the mother to these children.


Suzet*

I appreciate you coming back and offering your wonderful advice yet again, I felt like you gave up on me when I saw you stopped posting. I feel stronger and yet I feel everytime I see or talk to ww that I am having moments of weakness. WW has called me four times today to see if I want to go see a movie or have breakfast. So far I have ignored her calls and let the answering machine take the calls. I need time.



ncwalker :


I can't thank you enough for all of your advice last night, I think I have a lot to think about and need to take that step back and look at the whole picture and not just the snapshots of her moments. Life is to short and maybe one day I can find that true happiness we all struggle to find.


--------------------------------------------------


My Plan:


1) I need to let WW know I need time and space and to understand and respect this request.

2) I need to soul search and look at the big picture

3) I need to feel safe

4) I need to set clear boundries for ww if we are to work this out.

5) I need to think of the children, They are starting to miss her

6) I need to forgive ww

7) I need to find myself in all of this

8) I need to continue with my own IC, It's going great

9) I need to remain strong and in control.

10) I have to respect and listen to ww, it has to start somewhere.

11) Remain Positive " ALWAY'S "

12) Read the Bible Agian

13) Read SAA again

14) Save the House

15) Save the kids

16) Worry less about Tomorrow and more about Today.


I hope all of you keep standing by my side and posting on here with all of your wonderful thoughts and suggestion's.


LemonMan: Where are you Buddy.

GreyCloud: Where are You.

^

Michael,

We all want the best for you and your WW.That goes without saying.I don't think anyone here is suggesting that you DON'T reconcile with your WW.No,not at all.But first things first OK?

Like I mentioned before,your WW will wait if she is truly serious about this and looking deep within herself to figure all this out.She has a lot of work to do on her own too.There is no rush.She cannot and should not expect you to jump now that SHE is ready.You have been to he** and you need time to regroup.Even those who have been in a major car crash need time to readjust,rehabilitate and recover.Any trauma takes time to recouperate from.Please be kind to yourself and worry less about WW.Let her know that you are interested in exploring a new marriage with her to give her hope but that you need time.

I like your plan list but I would rearrange a few items in priority. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

O

P.S. Great post Suzet! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ February 27, 2005, 07:57 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Octobergirl Asked:


I like your plan list but I would rearrange a few items in priority.


Octobergirl,

I understand where all of you are coming from and I had a very long and heartfelt conversation with NCWALKER and he gave me some great advice as all of you have. My M was by far not the greatest before the A and I was by far the most thoughtless and inconsiderate H out there. I had no respect for my Wife and I never treated her like an equal.


Her first A 10 1/2 yrs ago set me on a collision course that I felt I had no control over, Almost like driving on Black Ice, You feel the slide but have zero control over where your going to land.

Well now 11 yrs later and going through her second A and then finding out about the 20 yr old waiter I feel I have some control over what I can do better for me. I still don't know if I want to forgive her and I am not sure if I even want the M anymore. But I am smart enough to know that I at least need to give it some time before making that choice. And one day I will need to sit down with WW and tell her exactly how I feel.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You have been to he** and you need time to regroup.Even those who have been in a major car crash need time to readjust,rehabilitate and recover.Any trauma takes time to recouperate from </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your wording could not have been more accurate. Because thats how I feel. I have had no contact with her all weekend and a buddy of mine tok the kids for a couple hours so I could have some quality time to myself. The past 8 weeks have been filled with saving the house, taking care of the kids needs, filling ww's needs, court dates, attorney's and Mortgage people. Yesterday for the first time for a Three hours it was just me and my thoughts.

I will need time to settle things with me and WW and know matter how it turns out, I will come out of it smiling and happy.


Questions:

1) How Long should I stay away from WW

2) When do you know it's time to Plan D

3) Is there anything I can do to start trusting WW.

4) Should I have restraining order lifted

5) WW wants to have dinner together Monday night, Should I

6) WW wants to start out by dating, is this good

7) The kids want mom back, what do I say to them

8) How can I find that focus again


Octobergirl,

How would you set my Plan above and in what Order?

Michael, for good advice, read the recovery stuff in SAA and Not Just Friends again.

And email me, would you? I tried sending you something at the rr.com address and it bounced.

GC

GreyCloud:

Sorry new email is Schluter@Frontiernet.net


I also need your email it was lost when the ww canceled all my rr accounts.

Hi again,

Well,I must have missed that memo,the one about this being your WW's SECOND A.ugh <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Where the heck was I anyway? Oh well.I give you credit for taking this on yet again.That would be a deal breaker for me as well as if my WH got the homewrecker pregnant.We all have our opinions on what we can take.I can only imagine how horrible it is to be betrayed again.Once is way more than enough!

Ok.Your Q's:
All in my own opinion ok?

1) Stay away from your WW until you have some things settled and you are more secure(i.e the home and child issues).Until at least those 2 issues are settled,no talk about relationships or marriage.Afterall,the old marriage is DEAD.CPR is not going to recover it so what you will be working on in the future is a brand new one.Like dating,you can take your time with this,plan and see where it goes.You have the "luxury" of knowing how strong you can be and that you will survive even if you are on your own now.So,no one,not even your WW, is going to be at the helm steering your life anymore.YOU WILL BE.

2) Knowing when it's time to file is a personal feeling and decision.I cannot answer that for you but I will say that I knew in my heart that it was the decision I had to make or I was going to "die".My options were: stay in a very painful state with my WH failing time and again to make our marriage and family a priority and work on our problems and kept seeing the homewrecker or D.It's like being between a rock and a hard place but the better option was not living in extreme pain being a part of a triangle.I pulled myself out of the quicksand and feel so freed not being a part of that anymore.Also,when my WH decided that it was acceptable to break my heart,and KEEP breaking it and put the homewrecker and his feelings first,it was over for me in my mind.Not my heart,that took longer to catch up. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

3)There is nothing you can do right now to trust WW.She is NOT trustworthy,yet.

4) Do not lift the RO,yet.Not until the time comes if and when you really start addressing reconciliation.That is not now.Soon,hopefully.

5)No dinner.Not yet.She is pushing you hard for contact and it's not in your best interest at this juncture.I would not expect my Cardiac Surgery patient to be out running 5 miles a day a few days post-op.Tell her you are not ready yet.We are not 100% sure this A is over.Remember that.

6)Dating is good but not yet.Rush,rush, rush.Tell her to s-l-o-w down and stop requiring all this of you.It's too much.

7)Explain to the children and validate their feelings about wanting mom home but that you are going to be careful and do this right.That means taking the necessary time to deal with it properly and professionally(help).

8) The focus will come again Michael.You are so much stronger now than in the beginning.I have seen this.When you realzie that you can stear your life anyway you want and that you will be OK no matter what,it empowers you.The focus might not be there since,normally,things are still crazy.You will have time to focus on your WW when the time comes but don't allow yourself to be buried under too much.*One thing at a time.

I am going to get some lunch.I will post to your list soon. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


O

edited for typos

<small>[ February 27, 2005, 11:35 AM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

Octobergirl :


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well,I must have missed that memo,the one about this being your WW's SECOND A.ugh [Frown] Where the heck was I anyway? Oh well.I give you credit for taking this on yet again.That would be a deal breaker for me as well as if my WH got the homewrecker pregnant.we all have our opinions on what we can take.I can only imagine how horrible it is to be betrayed again.Once is way more than enough!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her Very first Affair was when we first got Married and she was carrying are second child, She told me about it almost right away and all she did was give this OM a little oral sex, Yeah I know " JUST " is a sick word.

Her first Affair was with the same OM as now, they used to be F*** Friends and even back then he did not want a serious relationship with her.

On the last tap I have of her talking to Om he told her he was done with all of this and that he wanted nothing to do with her and that he threw out all of her letters and for her not to call him anymore. She told him that she agreed and that she was calling him to make sure he understood.

She has been very honest the past week or so.

PI tells me she has not called, written or seen OM. She goes to work then back to her dads and then back to work or sometimes she has her sister over. Most of her calls are to her family telling them she is a fool for hurting and losing me.

She even went into her job and told everyone she works with that she was sorry for her bahavior and that she is trying to save her Marriage right now and that she hates who she had become and that she needed there help to get through this.


She works at a DayCare and there are five or six of them plus the owner operator. One of the young ladies there called me after she did this. She has been my little spy on the inside.

Hi again,

I guess I can eat my lunch and type at the same time.LOL

It's clear your WW wants to try and come back BUT isn't it really due to the fact she got dumped? What if the OM returned and said he was sorry that he didn't mean what he said? Would she be right back at his doorstep?

This is where we have to find out the true intentions of your WW.And where she will have to show you she is doing a lot of *self work to prevent doing this again to you and falling back into the trap that is OM.You don't just want to be the fallback guy although some would argue that what is the difference how she came back.I would disagree,to an extent.

We have been down this porverbial road before right? I will concede that she is taking some minor steps to admit her faulty behavior but it's still too soon to be breaking out the champagne.Talk is cheap.Remember to look at actions and let's see how this plays out for now.She will really be tested if she knows you aren't just there waiting for the return.If she has to ponder that maybe,just maybe you don't want her back afterall,is she going to flip out and seek out some other guy,OM or what?

IMO,if she is truly serious,she will continue to work on herself and get help despite what you are doing or not doing.Her individuality needs to emerge,not the dependence upon another to solve her problems.

O

Do you know what a big step it is for you to go "out of your way" and post to other's in need here Michael? During your own pain? You really have come a long way. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

OCTOBERGIRL,

Thank You...

I want others to stay hopeful and to know there is always a chance. I believe we all have it in ourselves to make it right. I would also love to have someone learn from my own mistakes and maybe take just a small piece of it back to there M and just maybe it will help...


God Bless you All

having a rough night, sat down and found an old box full of letters I wrote to my wife while serving in the military and oversea's...

I am so hurt right now...

confused...

help

MS,

I myself am really struggling tonight.

I feel useless and worthless as an individual when faced by my WW's choices.

Basically, she did not choose me. Again.

REALLY in a funk.

Guess what. I just snapped out of it.

Know why?

Seeing YOU falter. You and I are both ex-military and we KNOW that a plan wins the day. When the emotions get in the way, it is time to get busy.

So get busy. On something OTHER than the old letters.

That is the PAST. It contains both good and bad, but the only PURPOSE it serves is a reference point from where we started our journeys.

It does not DEFINE us. Do not let it DEFINE you. Do not let it CONDEMN you.

You rewrite yourself EVERY DAY with the choices you make in the NOW.

Do not falter. Stick to the plan. DEFINE your boundaries. If your past helps you do that, then that is good. But if you are losing focus because of it, SNAP OUT OF IT MAN.

Nothing good comes from a funk. Only bitterness. Bitterness is the cancer of the soul.

NCWalker

I wrote this letter while overseas to my Wife. I now remember why I have stood by her side.


====================================================


97/12/03


Dear Wife,

Tonight is the first night I have found the time and the peace to write this letter to you, tomorrow we move out once again. I hope this letter brings you the kind of peace it brings me. I lost two more men yesterday and I need to write letters to there loved ones letting them know that their son’s did there job. I sometimes wonder why I am here and what my purpose is, and then I look up at the night sky and see you and the kids and I then know what my purpose is. I hope the money is getting to you and I hope that you have faith in what I am doing over here. Just think in six months I’ll be back in your arms and I look forward to that day so much. How is Taryn doing tell her Daddy loves her and misses her so much and let my little guy know that I think of him everyday and that daddy is taking care of the bad guys like he asked.

I know it scares you that I am over here and I promised you I would come home and I plan on keeping this promise to you, It’s part of my own secret wedding vow to you. Babe I look at the morning sunrise and I see your eyes and when the sunsets I see you’re tears and your hope. Please tell my Mom I miss the Sunday dinners and let my sisters know there baby brother is kicking [censored] and taking names. I feel the pressure everyday that I have the responsibility of my teams lives in my hands and it upsets me every time I lose a man to these damn snipers.

Yesterday I was standing in the saddle seat when one of my men took a hit, I felt at a lose because this young man trusted me to get him home to his girl and back to his family. I got your letter last week and decided not to read it until tonight. I promised you that this would be my last mission and I plan on keeping that promise as well, as soon as my tour is up we can once again be a fulltime family. I agree we should have another child as soon as we can and I know you’ll be a great Mom once again. You’re doing a great job raising the kids and everyone tells us so.

Thank you for the new Notebook, My poems are filling up and I have included my newest one just for you. You were right as always, Writing poetry helps me pass the nights away and helps me to better understand things, my own paradise.

I know I promised you I would come home but I want you to know that if this promise is broken it is broken with me fighting every square inch of soil to get back to you and the kids. Know this, if anything happens to me you and the children will be my last thought and with it I will go to my maker happy that I have been able to share this few yrs with you and I’m proud of who I am. You gave me two wonderful children and I will miss their laugh and they’re little pitter-patter of feet around the house. I will miss our late night lovemaking and the way you hold me afterwards.

Honey if I should fall in the line of duty, Know that I died loving you with all my heart and all my soul, Know that I have never and will never Love anyone like I have loved you. Every night I picture us tucking the children in and us reading to Ryan and your loving way you look at them. It helps me get through the hell I am living. It’s cold here everyday but in my heart it is warm because of where I keep you and the children.

I don’t know when I will be able to write again, so please honey don’t worry just remember, I love you. In closing, I have included my latest poem to you. Love the children forever and remember me forever.

Love,
Husband


Loves Meaning
Lt. M. Schluter
U.S Army Special Forces

To love is to share life together
to build special plans just for two
to work side by side
and then smile with pride
as one by one, dreams all come true.

To love is to help and encourage
with smiles and sincere words of praise
to take time to share
to listen and care
in tender, affectionate ways.

To love is to have someone special
one who you can always depend
to be there through the years
sharing laughter and tears
as a partner, a lover, and a friend.

To love is to make special memories
of moments you love to recall
of all the good things
that sharing life brings
love is the greatest of all.

I've learned the full meaning
of sharing and caring
and having my dreams all come true;
I've learned the full meaning
of being in love
by being and loving with you.

Micheal:

It is nice to see you getting stronger. I don't really want to offer you advice or an opinion on your current situation. I just want to support you bro.

Good luck with your life.

Are you back working yet? What about the house?

LM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Suzet*

I appreciate you coming back and offering your wonderful advice yet again, I felt like you gave up on me when I saw you stopped posting.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Dear Michael, I’m sorry if my disappearance made you feel this way but it was not the case okay? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> There are so many people posting (and newcomers everyday) who share their stories that it sometimes gets difficult and confusing to keep up with everyone and all the threads (especially the long ones). I took a 6 weeks break from these boards at the end of last year (vacation) and then one easily lose track as well. Also, when threads start to get so long as this one I feel hesitant to just jump in the middle from nowhere and offer support and advice. But I’m glad you’ve asked me to read this thread and provide support and input again.

Micahel, I think you’re doing fine under these current difficult circumstances… I very much agree with the answers Octobergirl provided to you on your questions on the previous page. As she (and others) has said, take time and don’t rush into anything.

One more suggestion: Maybe you can write your W an heartfelt, honest & open letter on some stage and explained to her exactly how you feel and that you don’t give up on her or your M, but that you first need some time. I think right now your W is consumed by guilt and feels very anxious, desperate and afraid that you probably have already gave up on her altogether (I think that’s why she tries to contact you all the time and put so much pressure on you and her desperateness, anxiousness and fear intensifies when she don’t get a response from you.) A letter like this will help to give her some reassurance and make her stop trying to contact you while you don’t feel ready yet… A very good book to help you with this is “Men are from Mars and Women Are From Venus” by John Gray, PHD. Specifically read the chapter on the writing of a Love Letter (one of the last chapters in the book). There is EXCELLENT guidelines & practical advice to follow and to help you express all your feelings of anger, hurt, pain and love to your W (in the right order). It will also help bringing those emotions to the surface by using “I messages” etc. Such a letter will also give your W a better understanding of your feelings and why she needs to back-off for some time etc.

Blessings,
Suzet

<small>[ February 28, 2005, 01:28 AM: Message edited by: Suzet* ]</small>