</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> as I did not tell him what to do in regards to his all night poker night last night, however I was up all night (and I mean all) with the sick baby, I just called H every 2 hours and put the phone up to his screaming son to remind him that he was up having fun and he owed me big time .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OR

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> the first time I called H, I asked him to please come home, that his son was sick and that I requested his help. he told me no. So I continued to call and ask him to come home, he said baby was fine, so I put the phone up to him and asked if that sounded fine to him.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Which one was it KMEJ? In the first post, you were trying to show him that he was having a good time, and he owed you. In the second post, you guise it as you were being honest, and sincere in your request.

My guess is that you called with the underlying feeling of the first post, but wrapped it up pretty with the second post. Why? Because you do want him to owe you........ He SHOULD owe you, KMEJ. He had deprived you for long enough! My guess is that you are holding a HUGE amount of resentment inside (I did) and it is seeping out....but you try to cover it up with flowers and potpourri to disguise the stench of your real feelings.

Anger and resentment can be toxic. But it doesn't mean that they are always unuseful. KMEJ, you need to learn to know your real feelings, and be true and honest with them. Your constant backtracking on these threads demonstrates that you at the very best are marginally honest with us. My guess is you are probably marginally honest with yourself. Sometimes seeing more clearly out of the fog, but that darn fog keeps creeping back in.

Your first step is to be honest with yourself. If you are resentful for his not meeting your needs, then be angry about that. You have a right to. But don't let it manifest in a disguise, or a manipulative way. You can't get him to do anything. He has to want to. You still haven't grasped that yet. I hope you do. It will be crucial to your saving yourself as well as your M.

LIT I just did not post all of it in the first post, as I wanted to appear strong and giving at the same time. It was a combination of the two. I did not lie either time. I am angry at what H has done to me and our family. I am angry that I feel resentful, and untrusting, and unworthwhile. I can not let those feeling show, or he may just walk on them, and then I feel worse. LIT I wish I am where you are.

You want me to be completely honest? I am lonely and scared, and COULD so EASILY cheat it is unreal- I am tempted- thinking for a split second that it would be better, and I am RUNNING fast and hard from the temptation. I know the pain it causes and I do not want to do that to anyone- ever. I feel unworthy. I feel second best in my husbands eyes, and I resent that completely. I hate that he will not kiss me, and flinches when I touch him. I hate that everything I do or say or think is "gay". I hate that my friends are losers. I could go on, but all it does is raise my blood pressure and there is nothing I can do to change H-So I am really honestly trying to change me. It is a slow process, I am so sorry. I want to find some inner happiness- I miss being happy. I can put on a great front for friends and family- but to be real honest- I have never been this lonely in my entire life. I want so much more out of life. I just need to find a way to make ME happy. For years my happiness centered around H, I have lost myself- I am trying to refind myself. Please be paitent with me. Continue to hit me with 2x4's, but try to remember that I am a gentle soul trying to rebuild from debre

That, my dear KMEJ, brought tears to my eyes. That was the most honest I've seen you be. I am so very proud of you for this post, KMEJ.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel unworthy. I feel second best in my husbands eyes, and I resent that completely. I hate that he will not kiss me, and flinches when I touch him. I hate that everything I do or say or think is "gay". I hate that my friends are losers. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I felt that way, too. Throw in the fact that "if I had any common sense" or "if I had half a brain" and a couple of "don't cheat on me" or "you'd better not f somebody else" (all before the A), and you are me about two years ago. My H treated me the exact same way.

KMEJ, I know how vulnerable you feel. I was. And I had opportunity. And I became the WS. All it did was give my H the trump card. And make me deny reality even longer. I had a choice before the A - D, or give in to the A as a distraction (a surrogate H) of sorts. The A was easier - I know that temptation. It is soooooooo very easy compared to D.

But when it was over, all it did was destroy any possible self respect, self confidence, self esteem I might have had. And it gave my H the trump. So I spent another year listening to what a "whore" I was, and how I would "spread my legs for anybody". I got into group counseling, b/c H stopped going to MC, and individual was so darn expensive. Funny, I ended up at the same crossroads - D, or turn to another escape. Thank god I was in counseling so that I learned how to cope in a healthy manner - I'm not sure I would have made it otherwise.

You have your own group here, KMEJ - you don't have to do what everyone here says. But you do have to learn how to think for yourself, and stand by your own decisions. Practice here - if someone tells you that you should have done something differently, or that you should do something - and you don't really believe it....then stand up for yourself. Stand up for why you believe you were right. You will see that it is possible to stand up for yourself without having a knock down, drag out, hurtful fight. It's possible to fight without pain.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> LIT I wish I am where you are.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You will be. I wasn't here in a day, either <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> It took me a good year or so to get to this spot. And I am stil not completely healed. I no longer have a M, so sometimes I fear that I will fall back into those same patterns in another relationship. But I also am consciously choosing to be aware of my reactions, and my emotional state. Which I hope will prove to help me in the long run.

I am not totally healed, but I am so much more happy with myself. And at this point, I can actually turn back, and see the progress I have made. So can others. When you start out, it is harder to see the progress because the road has been so short. Give it time, and keep working. I will keep dishing out 2X4's - and I will remember that you are a work in progress, if you will remember that I am not trying to hurt, but rather to help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> Deal?

It's funny, but I just got the feeling like you were a little sister or something. I do care about you.....otherwise, it wouldn't hurt so much to see you struggle. Ya know? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

OK - get some rest, ponder on what was said, and next time you post, don't post anything about what H did, what H said, what H gave you for Christmas, how H responded to XYZ, what H means by something........

Post about you - about your progress. Start to trust your inner feelings. You have every right to feel however you do. Don't let him tell you otherwise. And if you have doubts, questions, or want insight into how YOU feel, or how YOU are reacting, then post. But start taking the focus off your H, and put it on to YOU. You deserve some attention right now, KMEJ. You have gone without too long.

oh LIT I am so struggleing today. I am very sad, and overwelmed. I hate being treated this way. I hate feeling not good enough and unloved. I hate feeling like a piece of property. I hate my words being twisted around to nothing of what I intended. LIT I am hurting, and struggleing, and I see no light. I feel I want out.
Now I look at the sweet faces of my children and I am even more torn, more confused, and I feel loved.

How does one sort out the pieces?

KMEJ,

Find some girlfriends - go out with them. Talk on the phone with them. My girlfriends are saving my life right now. Making me feel ok and cared about and whole again. Because they have no ulterior motives and nothing to gain from me except friendship. And that is refreshing!

(((( KMEJ ))))

That is a good idea, I will call some. Thanks

(((KMEJ)))

The first thing you need to do is realize YOU will be OK. You and your kids will be OK. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> You have to have faith in that.

As to your question about how do you sort out the pieces.....I'm not sure I really know. I felt very much the same way you did. Torn, beaten down, degraded, fed up, and completely disrespected.

I felt that for a while, and then, after all the 2X4's from my counseling group, I realized that I was on my pity pot. I was feeling sorry for myself. I could choose to stay there, but things would not get better. So I had to get enough courage to get off.

I thought a lot. I thought a lot about whether separation would be good. I thought about how I would handle not having H around - would I be able to meet any EN's he did meet at times (for instance, I have a huge need for conversation. H did not usually listen, but at least I had someone to talk to. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Pathetic, but I had to come to terms with all that).

Basically, I took your list of fears, and I looked at how to deal with them. I went through, and I laid out the worst case scenario. And I played those movies out in my head. What would I do if H told everyone about my A? What would I do if he came after me? What would I do if he tried to kill himself? What would I do with my feelings of love for him?

The last one was the hardest. I had to realize that getting over H would be about 100X harder than the WS getting over OP. But I knew from experience, and from reading, that it could be done. And just like withdrawal, the first part would be the hardest. At the beginning, I had many more "worse" days than "better". But now the opposite is true. Doesn't mean it's always happy - but for the most part it is.

My group suggested that I set a timeline for myself. To learn how to fight fair and respectfully, and to enforce that for X amount of time - my chosen limit was 2 months. I honestly only made it about a month, before I couldn't take H 'meeting' OW, and giving her more respect than me. So after about a month of my setting boundaries, I told him that I wouldn't stand for his choosing OW over me (at the time, didn't know she was OW), and that if he couldn't give me more respect, than I was going to leave for a while. He said he couldn't give me what I needed, and I left.

Here are a couple of suggestions to build up your strength. Set a timeline for yourself, and don't worry about making a decision about your M right now. Focus on learning how to fight right, standing up for yourself in a healthy way, and recognizing yourself when you do this. And then give yourself pats on the back. Practice, practice, practice.

Also, find a couple who has a healthy marriage. Try to spend some time with them - notice how they respect each other (even when they fight)...notice how they treat each other as equals...notice how one does not control the other...notice how they will have time together as well as apart.

Sweetie, it is Christmas.....relax just a little, and realize that you have as much time as you want to make this decision. It's a lot easier to take the smaller steps to help you go in the right direction, than to think about running the whole race at a sprint. Enjoy yourself over the holiday. Realize that you have a right. Don't forget how angry and fed up you are, but just start practicing what you have learned. And don't judge by whether you get the response you want or not. Just judge by whether you were able to implement it, and do it correctly.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" /> You will be fine, KMEJ. Set a timeline, practice, and start looking at healthy people/couples, and observe their interaction and behavior. Right now you are learning..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

thank you for taking the time to write to me. I was at a real low point this afternoon- I have thought a little longer and I am a little more settled. I had a hard first half hour home. I did not handle myself the best that I could. I did continue to stop myself before I LB'ed or used a bad tone of voice. Instead I repeated to him what I heard him saying, and he resaid it to how I should have taken it. I was so low because the one thing besides my kids that I look forward too (my other job) H wants me to quit- and for today that was the straw that broke the camels back.

I have calmed myself, took the boys to get their haircut- got Michael's first haircut- now he does not look like a baby anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> he looks like the 2 year old he almost is (in a month)- such a handsome little man!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Lucas refused to get his haircut <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> and Dylan of course is an old pro at all this.

Now I am at home trying to figure out ways to better myself. I am trying to make a list. Because the only person I have to work on is me- and that statement only took me 4 months on here to realize <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Because the only person I have to work on is me- and that statement only took me 4 months on here to realize
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> It's good to see a sense of humor in there!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Instead I repeated to him what I heard him saying, and he resaid it to how I should have taken it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">KMEJ - you have a right to feel or interpret anything you want, however you want. Only you know how you feel. And you have every right to every feeling that you have. None of it is right or wrong. Don't let him correct you on YOUR feelings. You both have a lot of work to do, but you have a better chance at actually improving <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . So don't let him thwart your attempts.

I just wrote you a LONG post on your other thread and lost it. Don't have the time or energy to redo it now, but I will try to retype later.

In the meantime, maybe don't even try so hard to work on yourself. Pick something small- maybe standing up for yourself respectfully - and practice that. In the meantime, observe the overall trend of your M - not whether he did one thing right or one thing wrong. Not whether his motive was this or that. But look at how he treats you over a period of time.

Your best "work" right now will be observation. You need to build yourself up right now, and realize what a "healthy M" should look like. The way to do that is to look at trends, and to watch healthy people, and healthy couples. Realize how they work. Realize how they interact. Realize how different they are. This will give you strength. This will help you have faith and confidence in what you want, and that it is right. Once you build that confidence, your H will not be able to take it away. It will become your solid foundation. You will be able to build yourself (and maybe your M) from there.

Give yourself a rest, and pull back just a bit. Don't live in the moment - live in the trend....see where you are. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />


Oh, and PS - no more posting about whether your H did something right or wrong, good or bad, what his motive was or wasn't, how you can understand him, etc - OK? No offense intended here, but I am more interested in how YOU are feeling, in how YOU are coping, and what YOU are observing.....I care about YOU - not him right now <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 06:31 PM: Message edited by: L.I.T ]</small>

I am trying to not write about H and how I am doing, however it is hard- as H is such a big part of my life. I have let H decide my feelings for so long I am not sure which our mine and which I were told. Does that make since? THe thing is I do not know who Katie is, I know who Katie and Chad is- and who H is, but not just me. I have always lived for his happiness and I lost mine in the process. I am trying to understand me with out H- however I am not sure where the dividing line is, and Old habits are hard to break.

Katie,

You are already starting to think on your own....can you see it in your above post? I can. I am starting to see you as a real person - not just an extension of your husband. I like this KMEJ........And I do understand what you are saying. It took me a while to figure out who I was, what I liked, and "rediscover" myself.

As an aside, I thought I would share this with you. My H called me tonight. I broke plan B (still beating myself over the head....think it was the holiday season that got to me), but ended up speaking to him for about 1 hr first, and then later tonight for about 1.5 hrs. We spoke about what we had been doing, friends we had made, work issues, family issues, and just general junk. We actually enjoyed talking to each other.

There were quite a few moments where I tensed up saying something b/c I thought it would trigger him, or that he would make some sort of snide comment. But I said them anyway, and he had no negative responses. Instead, he listened.

Now, granted, I don't really see us getting back together.....he still drinks a lot, has a lot of work to do on himself (needs to find the reason he abused me and deal with it), and needs to be happy with his own life before I will consider getting back together. After all, actions speak louder than words. (But I do have to admit that it was really nice seeing the 'old MJR' coming through....)

Anyhow, the point I wanted to show was that tonight, for the first time in over 3 years, he treated me with respect. He treated me with respect. That shows me that something is working. It probably won't be enough to save my M. I don't really trust that he wouldn't slide back into his old patterns (it would take a LOT more work than just being lonely and missing the companionship) - but his attitude toward me has changed - significantly.

What could be the reason? Because I have laid my boundaries, stood my ground, and have taken control of my own life. I have ensured that I became my own person. I have earned some of his respect back.

I didn't really think about it until now, but in order for a spouse to be controlling, the other spouse has to 'give up' their control. And by giving it up, we become helpless in our efforts to maintain ourselves - because we are merely puppets in a show. But by taking control of myself back, I have rebuilt myself, and demanded nothing but respect for who I am today. The fact that I have taken control, and respect myself - has in turn earned H's respect again.

Sometimes it takes the most drastic measures. Don't be afraid.

PS - I will be gone for Christmas, and I don't plan on taking a computer. Rather, I will be taking a break from all this - hopefully it will be a healthy thing for me! Keep posting, and I will look for you when I come back on the 27th. Take a little break, and rest yourself. Explore yourself, enjoy yourself. I bet you can be a pretty enjoyable person when YOU get to shine through..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Take care KMEJ (btw - my mother's name is Katy - just with a 'y'), and have a very merry Christmas. Don't forget to be good to yourself also!

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: L.I.T ]</small>

I am really proud of you.....just wanted to say that again. I re-read your last post, and you are really starting to come into your own. I suppose it's similar to watching a child mature. There are growing pains, but soon you start to see the bud of a beautiful flower.

K, you are beautiful when you are honest, and focussed on yourself. Your last couple of posts have been very insightful, and so much more mature. Give yourself some kudos, girl!

See ya in a few! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Thank you for shareing your story with me.

I too will be gone for Christmas, as we have our anual family reunion- and I left my laptop at work, so I will be taking a break also starting tomorrow at our force out <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I am glad to hear that you and your H had such a nice conversation. It must have been nice.

I have tried to call mine twice tonight to tell him about Michael's first haircut- but he is choseing not to answer his phone or return my messages. I am not going to call him again. He left mad at me, and I was hurt too, I am tired of excepting all fault just to make the problem go away.

Merry Christmas LIT! Take care of yourself.