WH and I had our 2nd MC session today. He came in a bit more subdued. A few days in an apartment by himself has let him see the lonely side. Good, is all I can say. We tap danced around several issues that I'll probably feel the need to bring here eventually.

Well, our conselor feels we need to resolve a few things BEFORE Christmas. She feels that Christmas is bigger than the both of us. (Sorry Bogie.) She thought we should get together as family and try to figure out what we're going to do.

My take is that I don't want him around until he has NC and is accountable for things. He says it's almost over with OW "She complains too much." However, he refuses to be open about everything. He says I can check his phone, his mileage but he will probably term that snooping. He won't freely offer all this up because he feels that's an invasion of his privacy. Says his word is enough. How's that for fog-speak? Can we find a common ground here?

We'll see what happens tonight. I've brainstormed a little with my kids. Told them to not act angry but say what they feel. Say to beware of the double-speak and to call their dad on it. My daughter doesn't even want to talk to him.

Could it be this easy?

HC,

My take is that I don't want him around until he has NC and is accountable for things

Amen!!

I would not let him in the house until there is NC! To be in your life and your kid's lives he CANNOT have contact with another woman.

CAKE EATING, plane and simple!!

I think that is numero uno on the list. Does the other woman have a mate or sig other? Have you done all the exposing yet?

To me that is sooooo black and white.

NO CONTACT!!

k

I posted on your other thread about my concerns about your counselor.

Your WH sounds like he is in the fog and your counselor is enabling this. How can there be MC with a spouse who acknowledges being in an A? He is not acting like a married man. The only issue that needs to be resolved before Xmas is No Contact with the OW. I hate to tell you this, Carol, but the apartment is probably for them to be together. While involved in the A, he will lie to you and will deceive you and the counselor into thinking what he wants you to believe. He may be lonely in the apartment but is he lonely enough to come home or will he use this as a justification to invite her over. She probably told him that she will not see him unless he moves out.

Sounds like it's time for PLAN B.

I really wish you the best. I've been there where you are and it hurts like H*&(^)(.

Is my head spinning! Actually, our little family meeting came out fairly decently. The kids were able to ask the questions they wanted to ask. My oldest son wanted to have a nice dinner with his dad. It was okay.

I feel like our counselor made a good call. I do not feel that she is a pro-marriage counselor. Perhaps a session or 2 with SH might be good. But, I feel like our counselor's advice is going to get us through this extremely trickly period...Christmas. It was very apparent during the session, that we weren't coming to any agreement. She sees through him quite well. I think she has spent a lot of time counseling people of the engineering variety. They just think a little differently. Between my WH and I, we were at a stalemate today. We were not making progress on something that was so crucial. The issue is beyond us. The whole family has a vested interest in Christmas. I'm glad everybody had a voice in it.

My son asked me what my on-line support group thought. He definitely agrees with everybody here. He feels NC is a very central and important issue. For a kid, he's pretty with it. He has his eye open too.

You'all can yell at me later. I'm going to get through to the 26th. (Our anniversary BTW) I'm not going to be the angry one. I'm going to be the one who puts the turkey on the table and gets it all together. If WH f****'s me over, it fall on him. He's the goat. In front of his kids, his parents and the world.

Trust me, I'm not entirely stupid. He's given his garage door opener to the kid with a car. He's promised to call first and knock before entering. NC? We will see. I'm definitely NOT naming him a FWH yet. He can stew in his apartment for a long time.

HC,

I see you are implementing your boundaries. I note progress. On you part and your son is one of your finest supporters.

Love your children. Be there for them as they are for you. There's not much t/d. The bulk of the work is in the WS' court.

Enjoy the time with your family, as a family.

All the best,
L.

Carol,

Good work! I see you getting stronger with every post. Laying down boundaries is the beginning. If he can't follow boundaries then don't let him in your heart again.

Keep growing. Let him stew in that apt. alone. I hope you do have a wonderful Christmas, you have worked so hard and deserve it.

HINY

You have not responded to me so I probably will bow out of this. However, are you following MB Principles? I'm pretty sure that Steve Harley would not agree with what is going on with you. I had many sessions with him and my FWH sounds a lot like yours. If he is having an A, don't you believe that he is in a FOG and will lie and deceive you? I'm not understanding the advice that you are getting here.

For example:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do not feel that she is a pro-marriage counselor. Perhaps a session or 2 with SH might be good. But, I feel like our counselor's </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO, it is dangerous for you to be seeing a counselor that you perceive this way. MB is about building and maintaining marriages.

I'm saying this out of concern for you and wanting to help you with your marriage. However, if you do not find my advice to be helpful, I will leave this alone.

I will say again that I have been exactly in your same position about 1 to 2 years ago. Your H sounds like a cakeeater. I'm not understanding why it is acceptable to even your counselor for him to not be at home. It's like there is an elephant in the room that no one is seeing.

I hope that you are not denying some important things here.

Take Care.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

HC,

I think you are getting stronger all the time....and that's so gratifying to see. However, I do agree with mimi here. I think Christmas is the PERFECT opportunity for him to see what the loss of his family really means...at the times when it's really important. Instead, he gets to slide under the radar, have a nice holiday, get his needs met, and then go see his gf. If your H was making some effort to end his affair....I might feel differently....but in this case....I just don't chere.

HUGS!!!

Believe me, it's not my first choice to have him here for the Holidays. In my terribly broken heart, I think that he's not completely truthful, probably still seeing OW to some extent and is a cakeeater. Forewarned is forearmed. WH says he's just about ended it with OW. This is the sort of statement our MC nails him on. Calls him slippery and not giving a straight answer. Yes, it is fog talk.

Mimi: I appreciate your concern. WH really doesn't know anything about MB. This has been my place and a place of great strength. Before I came here, all I could imagine was divorce. I like our MC and she is covered by our insurance. I began seeing here before WH even knew I knew anything. She's been very helpful to me. She does ask questions along the lines of "why do you want to be marriaged to this man?" Not a comfortable question. Perhaps not a MB kind of question. But a question that needs to be thought through.

I may take a lot of long walks on Christmas Day. If it gets to me, I'm going for some air. I'm doing this for my kids and my inlaws. If WH doesn't hold up his end of the bargain, it's his lose.

HC, just wanted to post an aside about your counselor asking you why you want to be married to this man.

I don't think it's a non-MB question at all and I do feel that it's an important thing to think about. Otherwise you are just setting yourself up for disappointment later on.

My counselor asks me the same thing and it can be uncomfortable, yes. She asked me, at what point does what your husband is doing become emotional abuse? Wow..um...well...I had a hard time answering that one <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> But she knows what my objective is and supports that.

Right now, a large part of my commitment is just that--commitment to my marriage and vows. I do love my husband but recognize that in general this situation is not good for ME and I can't live with this forever. This is why timelines are important--this is why making changes in yourself and "moving on" are important. It is okay to say that the only reason you're sticking with this guy is because of your love and a commitment to your vows. I think it's okay AS LONG AS you feel that you will not be settling for something less than you deserve. I feel it's okay to do that for a certain amount of time..but you need to make timelines for yourself as to when you will no longer be willing to settle.

Hurtin

I really understand where you are coming from. You are in the midst of utter pain. I really want you to know that I have been exactly in your position. It is scripted. My FWH said almost exact verbatim things to me that your WH is saying. When I found him at the motel room with her, he said to me, in his underwear, when he opened the door, "I'm ending it right now". He told me that "I'm ending it" over and over. That was to keep me hanging on while he had his fun with her.

The MB process is about bringing an end to the A. I'm afraid for you that you are doing like I did. For too many months, I ENABLED my FWH. I made his A more comfortable for him. I actually PROLONGED it. In order to recover our marriages, the A has to come to an ABRUPT END. As Steve Harley himself told me, it has to be ABSTINENCE...COLD TURKEY.. NO, IFS, ANDS OR BUTS. This is like prolonging your agony while he continues to have his fun. The LEGITIMACY of home at XMAS and a WILD TIME with her for fun.

I've had two excellent therapists which I felt comfortable with. My FWH went to see one of these and cried and cried with her about his marital difficulties. We had SF that night. He then spent the weekend with her as usual.

He is home with me now. We are very happily recovered in our marriage. However, it was only after I broke down and closely followed the MB SYSTEM. I followed it. He does not know a lot about MB although he did have a couple of sessions with Steve Harley.

I feel the need to share this with you. Hope this helps.

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: mimi1254 ]</small>

You've posted this probably a dozen times:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">He says it's almost over with OW </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What does this mean to you?

<small>[ December 22, 2004, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: LINY ]</small>

***I think that he's not completely truthful, probably still seeing OW to some extent***

Carol - there is no "probably" about it. He got the apartment so he could go on having sex with her, and that's what he's doing. Brutal, but the truth. Please don't talk yourself into thinking that, well, maybe he's really just sitting over there by himself missing his family . . . because then *he'll* be able to talk you into believing the same thing.

He has moved out of his family home so he can freely have sex with his girlfriend. There is no better reason to go to Plan B. Enjoy your holiday with the rest of your family and get his cruelty and neglect out of your lives for a while.

The ball has to be in his court. Knock it over there right now by going to a stone-cold Plan B. If nothing else, it will mean great relief for you and your kids.
Mulan

Okay, okay, okay. I know what's going on. I'm sure there is contact, if only the fact they work together <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> I'm prepared for the false recovery. I would really like to stick to my guns but the pressure from the kids and inlaws is a bit much.

It is a great relief to have him out of our lives right now. I know there's going to be trouble after Christmas. Think of me. You can tell me "I told you so!" all you want to.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HurtingCarol:
You can tell me "I told you so!" all you want to. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">??? You mean it??? There is no upper limit to us saying "I told you so!" ....

Set some boundaries with us.... good practice. What is the limit per MBer?

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by HurtingCarol:
<strong>
I feel like our counselor's advice is going to get us through this extremely trickly period...Christmas. The issue is beyond us. The whole family has a vested interest in Christmas. I'm glad everybody had a voice in it.

You'all can yell at me later. I'm going to get through to the 26th. (Our anniversary BTW) I'm not going to be the angry one. I'm going to be the one who puts the turkey on the table and gets it all together. If WH f****'s me over, it fall on him. He's the goat. In front of his kids, his parents and the world.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think anyone here is gonna yell at you. We don't have to face ourselves in the mirror the next day or live with your husband. It is easy for us to make comments on your situation, we don't have to live with this (although we all have our crosses to bear). It is just sad to see you rationalize your dignity and self respect for everyone's vested interest in "X-mas". You are taking the "play now, pay later" approach. That is ok, you seem to know what you are getting and paying for....YOU just have to remember the wise old mantra.."You get what you pay for". I think carol babe, you are right when you said you will be putting the Turkey on the table, you will...literally... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> People will be here for you when inevitably you come crashing down from this. It is ok, we have all been there. No judgements for you, just sadness to see you having to do this and "play happy". Some people may see this as "strength", but I certainly dont...no matter though..you do what you have to do.

Goodluck and a Merry X-mas to you and your children.

LM

Carole,

I want to add that I didn't want to listen to folks on MB's either. I am being sincere in telling you that I fully understand your position. I was having to face that the only man that I have ever loved, for 30 years, thought he was "in love" with another woman. I felt that I couldn't possibly live without him. I unfortunately had to learn the hard way. I was attempting to protect you from that. Just like Lemon said, "Do what you have to do".

I will not say "I told you so". Like others, I will try to be here for you if you need me.

Carol,

"Preaching to the choir" doesn't begin to describe the empathy this group of folks has for your situation. You are talking to the "poster children" for crappy holidays here on the MB board. Your choices are crummy....all of them....and you didn't ask for them or deservet to be this awful sitch. Please forgive us, but it's with great regard and caring for you that we give you the advice we have....and I can't think of anyone of us who will say "I told you so"...this is all very close to home chere.

(((((((((((((((((HC)))))))))))))))))

Thanks everybody. I do feel compromised. I feel like if I don't do this right, my inlaws are going to go weird. That my kids want this. My inlaws have been telling me to look for the subtle signs of love. I suppose they mean like WH taking an apt, staying out for days in unknown places, never calling the kids, admitting in MC that he owed me an apology for leaving the marriage without talking but not offering up the apology as I sat next to him. My eyes are open.

I'm going to admit to a very un-MB thing. It's going to take a Herculian effort on his part to make things anywhere near right. I am prepared to do what I feel needs to be done. I'll be honey sweet, calm and unangry but I won't take a lot of sh**. I do have boundaries but I am, against my better judgement, relaxing them for Christmas. I am the human sacrifice this holiday season. My only hope is that maybe WH can repair a bit of the damage he's done with his kids. I am prepared to be crapped upon come January. I've been dumped on before and will again. This time, I feel more prepared. He is not the only person who can decide if this marriage continues.

Actually Carol, you are the only one who decides if this marriage has the opportunity to continue. My WH, like yours, was almost ready to give up OW. That was 20 months ago. They are still living together.

The only thing that changed is I completely lost all love and respect for him. Protect yourself.