</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ark^^:
<strong> Soulloss..

I sit and wait and wonder when are you going to post...
when are you going to post...


so often when I have posted to you I got chastised by others for not knowing the WHOLE story...

I wish you would post more about you..but that IS arrogant thinking on my part...

but I know you are really intelligent...
and I always get the feeling that you hold back so much when you do post here.....


ARK </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hello ARK....

so many questions....
so much thought....

yet I have been posting....to others' threads....
I have surprisingly revealed much this past month...

but I do understand what you're speaking of...the 'holding back'....I do indeed...I 'hold back' in many facets of my life...here in posting, here, in real life....

I hold back for fear of feeling exposed and vulnerable...because there feels to be no safe harbour...regardless of the direction in which I turn....

I'll re-post for you here, so as not to send you on a giant MB chase....for some further clarity...my most recent ramblings....

well..for a really quick rundown ...here is what I recently posted to someone:

my name is Dylan, and I am Dewt's W...or exW...pick a label...sigh...

we have been at MB for 5 years...starting with Dewt's PA 5 years ago...

I had the affair this time...like you, with a woman...like you, I feel a sense of 'limbo'....the "Oh-my-god-I-had-an-affair-with-a-woman" aspect is sooooo underrated by many...I feel awash in sexual confusion...

like you, I was adamantly hetero....and had a strict moral code and boundries...

I betrayed myself as well as my H and family...

I can't yet look in the mirror...

Unlike you, my 'affair' was not 3 years long, nor was it hidden or lied about...it started out as OW and I being friends...platonic friends, she was exiting a rough abusive relationship with another woman at the same time.......June - Oct 2003...needing a place to live, we needing extra income, she rented our spare room...at the end of Oct 2003, she had an accident at work and was house-bound for the next month....we spent nov. getting closer and physical(nothing MAJORLY physical yet)....

ALL with Dewt's knowledge...hell, he even gave me 'tips'...Dec. he spent trying desperately to save his sanity....and in my own way, so did I....Jan 2 2004, he packed up the mini-van, our 7 yr old, and left me when I could not re-commit right then and there, to our marriage....

it was truly an 'experiment' gone wrong....it was supposed to be 3 of us engaged in polyamory...but feelings developed for the OW...unexpected feelings...the '3-some' angle never materialized and Dewt went nuts watching her and I grow closer....

I was left in a tail-spin, wondering if I was gay, bi,..???!?... if this had bearing on all the effeminate men I had dated over the years, I needed to look at my life...my past...my issues...open up to myself and discover what the hell allowed me to do this devastating thing to my family...the people I love most in the world...

was THIS what I had been lacking that led me to break vows I held more sacred than my own life???..I honestly felt I had personal questions that I needed personal answers to....the first month after he had left me...I never even saw OW...I spent that dark time in an empty 5 bedroom house in the dark, slept in my son's bed surrounded by anything that smelled like him....

I have NO idea IF I want my marriage....much has happened in between my affair and now...

Dewt has been with 4 women during our separation which began last Jan and ended in Aug....something I have issues with (yes, even while in the throes of my own affair) as he stated time and time again he wanted to be married to me...wanted me still...loved me still...missed me....missed us....to me, those words do not 'jive' with the actions he instead took....

sort of a "you want me to get off the proverbial fence and decide to rebuild our marriage....ok...well,...you're busy right now with your girlfriend...so how about we hit the pause button on our M instead...come see me on my fence when you're done..."

how could I EVER believe he was serious and truly loved me when all it seemed to me, was a rush on his part, to have me 'replaced'....have someone to stroke his ego, someone to be intimate with...but all the while claiming he wanted our marriage?!?!?!

NC was established in June....I moved out of the OW's town and back in with my son and Dewt....to co-habitate and raise our son....

no 'marriagebuilding' as yet.....

Dylan

So Miker, I hadn't really labelled it an A...during it..more of a 3-some gone horribly wrong...Dewt kept many of his true feelings under wraps...

How could I do this to him having been a BS?...I'm not certain....again, up to a certain point in the timeline, I did not see it as 'betraying' him as he was actively involved...

perhaps I was just beaten down and feeling hopeless, 5 years on...that all the changes promised never happened...that being fathful was the only change that stuck....

Dewt is home for lunch....I will continue this later...

Dylan


and in a response to Renaissance Man...


Originally posted by RenaissanceMan:
... given that I was feeling so low about myself for so long, I felt incredibly validated and flattered by being showered with all this suddeen attention.

The feelings that I experienced were incredibly powerful, and still make me fell much better about myself.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone is different...but this sounds right on the money ....

and it's not just the validation...although that's huge...it was the feeling of finally being VISIBLE to someone....after feeling invisible ....of being HEARD, and listened to...

being made to feel that your thoughts, opinions feelings...mattered...really MATTERED....

the fact that you could just mention something and suddenly it was done...somebody laughing at your silly jokes...'getting' the humour...someone who looked at your life and SAW the invalidation, the hopelessness, the anger....

someone who did not want to sweep everything under a rug and just 'be fine'.....

and that is one big drug when you have not felt that in 8 years....

it took another 5 years after Dewt's A for me to crumble under the weight of infidelity....

and I have to agree, I had been feeling so low for so many years...especially after my H's A and then no improvement in our lives...he improved...stayed faithful.....but it wasn't enough....

"yay!...my H will forevermore be faithful....now, if only I could get him to SEE and HEAR me..."

5 years after his affair, I got tired of waiting, and yes, when someone else is suddenly there, fulfilling needs you didn't even recognize you had, well, that is more powerful a draw....esoecially if it is what you have been craving from your spouse, have said so a billion times and have gotten nowhere...

those feelings can indeed be the most dangerous..for both the WS and the BS....

Dewt having those feelings and then caving in to them again and again (unlike you) as a BS during our seperation, did more to damage our chances of recovery than anything else...

even as the WS this time, I feel betrayed by him....on both ends of the spectrum, these feelings can lead to doom...


then there was my mini-emotional breakdown day...


Originally posted by StillHereMakingIt:

These FWS have to live with this shame and guilt the rest of their lives...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will take my shame and guilt to my deathbed....and if not for the existence of my son...there are times that deathbed was VERY close....

not ALL of us escape responsibility....not all of us want to...some of us have it shoved in our faces...and all we ant to do is retreat to where everybody doesn't think we are pieces of [censored]....

cause that's how it feels....like we are pieces of crap...everyone LOOKING....WHISPERING...GIGGLING...

yes, consequences of our actions....YES....deservedly so...

does this sarcastic attitude come from guilt and shame...mine does....

it did not help to move here, join my H and son, and have soooo many of his brand new aquaintences know the whole sordid story..(I had a same-sex A)...

...but only his perspective...no one here knows about his A 5 years ago...they don't know about all the dating and sex he had during our separation...they know I am a good-for-nothing cheat, wonder why the heck he wants to still be married, but have NO IDEA of his role in the circumstances that got us here....

he is a nut for wanting me back, and I walk around with the proverbial scarlett letter...

yes, we made our beds...yes...exposure was required....

it's just REALLY, REALLY hard to want to save a marriage when you feel like a piece of [censored]...

now I'm crying and have to go.....

Dylan


my H exposed to almost everyone he knew...

his dad, brother..best friends, cousin,...his XW, his girlfriend in march...family friends...MB friends...our 7 year old got a full rundown about Mama and ****...

exposure ..... I understand...I truly do...

but, in my efforts 5 years ago to provide a safe haven for him to WANT to be in, I told close friends...mutual friends....

I STILL have not told my parents or any family...to this day...

I never wanted him to have to look at these people at family functions and feel judged or ashamed....I wanted to protect him...and I often still do...

but I don't have that luxury....and I fully understand it...

but fully understanding does not make it easier...

sometimes it feels like he was wrapped in the protective shroud of my love (bad, co-dependant, enabling behaviour...I know now)....

and when it was time to reciprocate, I feel like I was sandblasted...

our marriages and relationships require us to take 50/50% responsability... and we do...it just seems with exposure, those to whom the A is exposed, only get the one-sided version...

and we, the WS are left HEARING that our spouse takes responsability for their share of the health of the marriage.....but we SEE that WE are BLAMED by those the A is exposed to.

I'm still talking about FEELINGS...not factual data...

our guilt leads us to feeling judged...even perhaps, when we are not...

Dylan


So, you see, I have been trying to share...

still holding back...

still guilty of procrastination...all the above threads still deserve responses from me....

as for knowing the whole story.....oh good lord...
you have not the time nor the patience, probably, for the reading it would require....all those read-only posts...shudder...

although in the interest of reasearch, I have, this evening, spent a goodly amount of time re-reading posts from 1999-2002....

saddened, actually, at how much of it still pertains....

references even then to my fence sitting...but in the recovery department...how 2.5 years on, I was still trying to decide if we would/could recover...

saddened at how much of it still pertains....for him....still the same issues of his wife's lack of outward desire for you....still feeling less than wanted...physically...and all the emotional needs that accompany that for him....

if you have the patience for it....I will include a tidbit I found...my 1 year after D-day post...

1 yr anni of D-day:

posted October 05, 2000 10:32 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some truths: or more ramblings of the madwoman...
I am wallowing today...I even took a 'sick' day...

I played with my 4-yr old alot...I now know more than I ever thought I would about
designing a racetrack...as well as what 'cool' things nascar racers can do...lol

and I have taken some time to travel down the 'memory lane' that the past year has
formed...YIKES!!!!!!

let's see...there were those downs...then those ups...then those downs....then further
down....then up....then deepest downs...then pretty 'stable'...then down.....the
up......the usual...you know...

I have had moments of....great epiphanies..of great clarity...of great regret and deepest
pain...unbelievable rage that has stunned me...of hurt that has held me...happiness
too...joy in spots, even...but mostly, I have had the most intensive inner-searching and
emotionally exhausting journey within myself that I could ever imagine...

a year ago, the rug that was my world, that contained within its weave all that I knew
to be true and hold close and believe in, was pulled from under my proverbial feet...

I have spent a year trying to regain some equilibrium after my fall....

peppermint once asked "is it recovery or survival?"....Darlin, for some, its one, for some,
the other...

I stand before you a survivor...nothing more...and in that, there is no shame...

and now begins the glimpse into the inner being that shapes Dylan...and the part for
which you need the patience of Job...

I am uncomfortable about being intimate with this man I call husband...intimate on the
important, soul-nourishing levels....as peppermint brought up, I have erected a wall that
he cannot climb, nor walk around, nor scale...it is of my own making..I readily admit it...

some parts of me just feel 'shut down'...as if a sign hung on me saying 'temporarily out of
order' would not be innappropriate...

Like Kathi, on her recovery thread, I too have been of '2 minds' (should I stay, or should
I go?)...and have been since the beginning....

that is of course, a major part of the problem....by not 'committing', I leave an 'exit door'
open... a safety valve, of sorts...

and also like 'ohmyMarie', I despair of living with and loving a man I no longer respect or
admire....the "I don't love him the same way" whine....but how can I?...of course I
can't....duuuuuhh!!!.. love is indeed changable, but can I be in love with someone who
has perpetrated one of the worst offences of my life to my life...to our lives?

I don't think I have ever been 100% open or truly 'meself' with Deut...I have always been
'on guard' of sorts...the first time we dated, 15 years ago, there was a serious amount of
damage done to and alot of hurt felt by a young 18 yr. insecure girl when our relationship
ended...formulative hurt, I am talking about...our relationship ended due to "Tina" all
those years ago....I could not be with someone who respected me and our relationship
so little...even if the betrayer of my trust was a 17 year old kid excited by life and
teenage hormones......we then spent a decade apart...

cheating has been Deuts exit move...in almost every relationship he has ever had....he
has cheated to end it....or cheated and not cared whether it ended...whatever....it is his
pattern....or was...even this time, he cheated because he thought I didn't love him,
wasn't in love with him, he knew I was unhappy and could no longer take seeing me this
miserable (caused by him, he figured) and so allowed himself to get caught up and at the
same time, give me the perfect excuse to end it with him....

I don't think I have ever been comfortable being 'intimate' with this man...

During that decade spent apart, I was emotionally devastated to find after over a year
together that my then-fiance was a serial cheater (anything and everything, including
underage, handicapped girls)...and to everyone in the small town where we lived, I was
the idiot because he was so obviously an [censored] that I must be blind or stupid....(until
this past year, I have always thought I was just blind....I'm wondering...)....
apart from that debacle, there were 3 other 'major' relationships that bit the dust due to
infidelity....

I think I'm getting a complex....

I have never been unfaithful...emotionally or physically...to anyone....even as a teen...

Recovery is difficult for me, I believe, because due to the formative emotional
devastations I have endured at the hands of unfaithfulness, it is against every moral and
ethical fibre in my body to share my life ...my soul...my body..my trust..my hopes..my
dreams..my truths...my ideals, my very essence itself, with someone who would allow
ego to win over personal ethics and morals...

Deut states that he will never do this again that he will never allow out marriage to ever
again reach the depths of neglect that it did...he saw and felt my pain...he says he will
never cross that line again...

but see.....once upon a time, he said he would never do it in the first place...and
yet....he did....

what comfort is to be taken in the words of a liar??....what solace is there in the truth of
it all being that you live with a liar.....and that trust will never be the same...

am I now living with a really great liar??...or the more frightening thought...am I now
living with a greatly improved liar?....I once believed all his crap..whose to say he isn't
spouting new crap??....how much of my own misery has been dictated by my own
stupidity, blindness, trust, naiviete and bone-headed refusal to 'let go' of those
relationships that damage my very soul and psyche???????

Infidelity has been scarring me for 15 years...it all started with Deut....its as if I've come
full circle...

I once posted here that 'leaving is easy...staying is hard'....I wonder.....

maybe its just that I have never been brave enough to leave....

especially when it was past time to do so......

of course, I cannot honestly say I've been brave enough to fully commit to staying,
either......

I can't say that I've put 100% into any of it...I give up in the blink of an eye....for awhile
there, I was packing my bags (mentally) weekly....why was I constantly looking for the
'straw' for that camels poor, tired back???

I love Deut.
I have loved him for 15 years.
I just do.

am I in love with him?
by my own personal, inner, soul-definition of 'in love'?....no.

I want to be...and with no one else...I dream of being in love with this man...

but see again...I admitted that I was no longer in love with him once....he went out and
used it as justification for a 4 month long sexual escapade...hence my hesitation at being
open and honest with a man who has done this...

I want to be in love.
I want to be in love with Deut.
I just don't know how yet.

I have alot of questions still, alot of processing to do...still many things to sort out...

this is not just about Deut and our marriage anymore..the past year has shown me that
much of my pain has to do about me.

Schizzo has such a great point...the marriage overall, I would give it a 7 ( which is great
as pre-affair, it was -547...lol)....but the me....I give it a 2..on a good day...my
emotional and mental health is out the window...

I alternate between reaching out and retreating back...the only motivation I can guess
at, is fear...of so many things...

I have discovered that too, in the past year...my new found fears, my
self-destructions...I live in a state of 'waiting to exhale'....

I have decided that upon the 1st anniversary of d-day, I shall declare the past year
SURVIVED

there is no mad rush to yell 'HEALED AND RECOVERED' from our home...

it may take years, according to many many experts...years...::shudder::

SO BE IT.

I am not waiting for a miracle pill...but I am willing to acknowledge that this may be
awhile in the making...

I am re-evaluating almost every aspect of myself, of Deut, our relationship, our marriage,
our communications, our livestogether....considering what hangs in the balance, the more
healed I get, the better....

Deut's exit move is cheating.....I think mine is apathy....

so.....I hereby declare the first day after d-day as the official start date of our
re-building...(how can I throw in the towel and say I've failed, if I've never really
tried)..we survived a year, now lets rebuild and recover for the next....we have the
tools, we have the desire, and we have the fear of the alternative....but most
importantly, I believe we have the love...we truly do..that's what makes our lives so
sad...we truly have the love....

now the trying begins....

I invite you to hold my hand, as this forum becomes the medium for my journal...starting
tomorrow....

for the remainder of tonight, I will remember that a year ago tonight, Deut hurt me in
ways I still can't verbalise...he destroyed parts of me...he lied....and I will be thankful
that this has led me to try to discover who the hell I really am, what shapes, motivates
and scares me, what I have coursing through me, what I am capable of, and mostly,
thankful for making me look up "I am woman" by Helen Reddy at napster....

one thing I can say about this particular anniversary:

I am so unbelievably fuc$ing glad that I will never have to re-live that particular year
ever again....it is over...

next chapter.......

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=37;t=005919#000000


LOL...I have opened the inner sanctum for you ARK....

I may be nearing the time for a dialogue...

I do not intend to leave your other questions hanging....I will respond...but this post is already far too lengthy...

Dylan

<small>[ December 26, 2004, 11:29 PM: Message edited by: soulloss ]</small>

Bij, wow! Both you and soulloss have given me lots to think about. Thank you for that! I’m still mulling over soulloss’s words, but I’ve read yours several times; I’ve studied the concepts you’ve presented, and I have some questions as well as some thoughts with which I hope you will help me. Soulloss, I hope you will also feel free to comment on my thinking here.

My responses to the “stench” thread are mysterious even to me; I’m not sure why I reacted so strongly to posters’ having taken exception to the term used. Perhaps finding out the reason will show me something I need to see.

Bij wrote: "Do you have a tendancy to choose words that are critical? Words that cut, hurt, insult, either by habit or on purpose?"

Ouch! Honestly, I skipped over this one; had to come back to it later, as it is not an easy one to answer. The truth is that I’m much better verbally than my H, and I can “take him” fast. This is not easy to admit; it doesn’t speak well of me. In this A situation, I’ve made every effort to speak kindly, however, as I do feel great compassion for the childhood experiences that I believe caused his sex habits and addiction. I feel compassion also for the pain he has endured in the years since he gave up some of those addictive behaviors and contemplated the kind of man he had been. In actuality, if my H objected to my terminology, I would likely apologize and re-phrase my thought; still, the cheating is reprehensible, and “stench” is not a word I personally find offensive to describe the situation. Could our differences on this matter simply be an issue of semantics, rather than one of disagreement on basic issues of human interaction and communication? I hope so.


Bij wrote: "Resentment is the leading cause of failed recoveries. You should know this early on, also from reading SAA. Overcoming resentment is solely the responsibility of the BS. There is nothing a WS can do to overcome this. Resentment, will cause you to overlook efforts being made by a FWS, and also close you off to the happiness you're entitled to."

This forces me to take a look at my resentment. I agree; that’s why I’m trying to overcome the resentment. But, it isn’t easy. All of this is about more than an affair, really, although that would certainly be enough. My resentment of my H goes back to the beginning of our marriage, which has been a cycle of his detachment and my trying to please him and move us closer. Of course, it’s my responsibility to protect myself, and I know that now, but I thought I was doing that all along. He absolutely crushed me with his double life, his lies, and his inability to commit to our relationship. But, the greatest blow has been in realizing that I was naïve and foolish enough to allow him to convince me that I was crazy for “imagining” what I now know was real. In September, he told me the truth, only because I insisted upon it. He feels relieved, released. For me, it’s been hell. As late as yesterday, I was remembering events that I suppose I had blocked – each time, I have to think for a minute – did that really happen? It did. All of the memories are real, an odd pair of bikini panties that was explained away, a weird phone call here and there, trips out of town when he couldn’t be reached. . . .

No more. I think about how close I came to insanity, how far I’ve moved from the young, pure, hopeful woman I was. I can’t afford to lose any more of her. Yes, I will do my part to overcome the resentment, because it contributes to my unhappiness and leaves no room for health in our marriage. But, I won’t lose sight of myself again. I will live my life now, back to my dreams, my hopes, my writing, my growth. If our relationship grows as well, that’s a bonus.


Bij wrote: "Healing, forgiveness, is a choice. It takes time . . . It's effort. You have to reach for it . . ."

I think I’ve made that choice. Does it not seem so?

Bij wrote: "The fact that you wouldn't have stayed if you didn't have children speaks volumes. Is this the kind of marriage you want ? What happens when the kids grow up, and move on with their own lives ? Are you going to LIVE your life, or are you going to go through the motions?"

I always said I’d not stay with a man if he cheated on me or physically abused me. We surely can say a lot when we don’t know what we’re talking about, can’t we? Lol

Actually, that’s pride talking, and I have a lot of pride that I’m having to whittle on for my kids’ sakes and my own. Right now, at this moment, I feel this situation is too painful and too multi-layered to endure for the sake of the person who caused it, but I’ll endure it, and I’ll do every bit of work that’s necessary in order to benefit my children. They’re young, and they have no clue about what’s going on. They love their daddy and their mama; I won’t easily throw their family away.

When they’re grown up, I hope my marriage is on solid ground, that hurts have been fully forgiven, and that I can sound like some other old folks I’ve heard, who say that marriage is a lot of work, but it’s sure been worth it in the long run.


Bij wrote: "If your questions, conversations, include where you are NOW, where you WANT to go, what goals YOU have, your communication will improve greatly."

Where we are now, yes. Where I want to go, yes. Where he wants to go, sort of. What goals I have, yes. What goals we have, no. See, that’s part of the problem. He’s not a planner, not a goal-setter. He much prefers to live by the seat of his pants. It’s caused much grief, to be sure. How can I deal with this? By setting my own goals, by getting back to my dreams, by looking to undo some of the damage I’ve allowed done to me, by being the best mom and wife I can be without, this time, giving up myself in the process. Wish me luck.

Bij wrote: "I'm telling you this out of experience. My H, wanted to do everything he could to help me through this."

Mine has said this, also. However, I see little evidence of commitment to it. After 20 years of knowing he didn’t value me much, he says he was wrong and now he wants to be the man/ husband/ father he wasn’t. Words. He doesn’t really want to tackle anything (budget/debt/issued in the M that need attention). He is not a fixer. He is not a communicator. He doesn’t want to talk and certainly not to a counselor. I’ve lived this for these years, but the fact is that I can’t change it. I can accept this aspect of him and make the best of it, or I can leave him.

And, here, I must also say that he has changed. He has found a level of spirituality that surprises both of us. I love it; I prayed for it; it helps a great deal. Also, he helps now with cooking, cleaning, etc. and actually pays attention to the kids more. He listens to them more and seems to enjoy them.

Bij wrote: "But I'm a firm advocate that once you decide to stay in this marriage, AFTER DDAY...you have an obligation to give 100% of yourself, 100% of the time. No room for the taker to come out right now."

First of all, I’m not familiar with the concept of the taker, though I’ve seen it referred to on the boards a few times. Perhaps you can explain it to me better.

Secondly, my reaction to your thought is “YIKES! What if I settle back into what I was before D-day?” Hear the fear? I think it means you’re right about this, and I’m not there yet.

Bij wrote: "But ONCE we make that choice to rebuild the marriage, we've committed OURSELVES...to moving past it... because you have forgiven it already."

Have I? Three months ago, I thought I had. I thought I’d forgiven him and then came the recovery process. Now, I wonder whether true forgiveness is part of the process itself, finally achieved only after the work is completed. I don’t know anymore. I want to forgive. I really do want to. I’m just not sure how to do it.

Bij, in your sig, you wrote, “Still going great”. Tell me, what does recovery look like? What does it feel like? Am I in it at all?

God bless,
PM

bumping for bij, soulloss, and anyone else who can offer enlightenment.
PM

Papermom.....

not much time during the day hours to post....I have an 8 yr old keeping me on my toes!!...lol

I LOVE Christmas vacation.....school gives me back my boy!....

I'll be back a little later...


Dylan

Yes, Dylan, enjoy! Then, when you have time, let's "talk". I really want to hear from you if you're willing.
PM

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

thank you for your response....


....I do indeed...I 'hold back' in many facets of my life...here in posting, here, in real life....

I want to grab you and shake you and say..just stop it...stop holding yourself back..

stop identifying yourself so much through his affairs and your affair....

life is fleeting and moves at neck-breaking speed and you need to stop...

stop waiting to feel love for dewt and just love him...

stop waiting to feel passionate and just be passionate...

stop waiting for all those things you want to feel and just force yourself to feel and do them...

stop waiting to decide if you want marriage..and be married...

stop waiting to feel you have forgiven yourself and know you are forgiven by a power greater than all of us...

stop waiting to feel whole and know that you are whole...because you hold great importance in this universe...and are here because you are needed and loved and hold greatness...

ispite of it all...

love yourself soulloss...enough...
love yourself enough...

my name is Dylan, and I am Dewt's W...or exW...pick a label...sigh...

I think you should take a writing class...
seriously you should...

ARK

TAKE one? I think she should teach one!

Seriously, I do teach writing, ark, and I think both you and soulloss have the gift.

btw, I've been reading posts by both dewt and soulloss and have wanted to write something similar to your post, ark, except that you've said it much better. I want to tell them both to stop thinking so much and just love each other. Both are hurting; both need one another. So sad, but there's so much hope there, too.

I wish them both the very best.
PM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bij, in your sig, you wrote, “Still going great”. Tell me, what does recovery look like? What does it feel like? Am I in it at all</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hey there PM, sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, but I really did want to reply to this.

Yes...you are absolutely in recovery.

I can promise you this, because you are experiencing all these things that we are so familiar with over on the Recovery Board.

In the early stages of recovery, I would venture to say we're all still a bit shell shocked, we've adhered to our "plans" ..and we've reached our goal, and once we arrive...there's no more plan. We're pretty much flying by the seat of our pants.

Once we reach "this place" called recovery, we wonder what the hell we're doing here. All the turmoil begins to settle down, and our minds wonder back...and we feel stupid. We actually have moments of clarity when ONE moment will stick out, and you'll feel the "I should have had the V8" smack against the side of your head.

We ask ourselves how stupid we were really were. And in time...you'll actually start blaming yourself, if you'd only paid a little more attention..maybe you could have done something to prevent it ? Maybe something could have changed the string of events that would come to shatter your world.

With that being said, recovery... is a big open wound. It can heal one of two ways, it will heal with time, TLC...patience....or it will heal by picking at it..over and over...picking at that little scab...just that one little piece that you find irritating. We keep picking it...and the healing process starts all over again..and here we are again at the threshold of..what the hell am I doing here ?

So where am I... let me think...I actually have stopped counting... I am 10 months post DDAY and 8 months into recovery.

I have few trigger moments, not because they don't happen, but because I choose how I will react to them.

Do I trust my H ? No, not yet, not fully. Am I trying to get there ? No. I'm fully accepting that I may forgive, and I may heal, but I may never actually trust him again. Does that mean I will spend every waking hour babysitting him ? Oh God no.

My view of my recovery is a little different than you'd normally see. Rule of thumb is 2 years. But I can't look at it that way. I see it as one day at a time.

I love my H, I truly want to spend the rest of my life with him, but I have learned, and accepted that MAY NOT HAPPEN.

I may very well get to the point one day that I say...hey you know what...I really just can't buy into this....and be on my way... or he may get to the point and say the same thing. If I've learned NOTHING ELSE...from this mess...is that NOTHING is cast in stone.

I've learned what I am, and what I am not capable of. I've learned my weaknesses, I've learned my faults, I've learned my own value...I've come out the other side of this KNOWING..hey you know what..I'm not so bad... I would marry me. THAT...to me is recovery.

I no longer struggle with the inability to control his actions, his words, his opinions, they are his, and I have mine.

We don't want a divorce. We don't want to start new lives without each other, so we'll make this work...and today it's working...and my goal is to make tomorrow work.

Maybe in a couple years...I'll think more "long term"....but for now... I'm happy with today, and I've chosen not to let the A...poision my TODAY.

I hope you can take SOMETHING out of this long winded post...and find comfort somewhere.

Ok.

I work in the medical field and use this analogy to explain how it is dealing with a very WS...btw..Orchid is a buddy of mine. She's pretty darn on target as usual..

Imho, at first it is easy to carry compassion in your soul when dealing with the WS's out there. They are acting strange, behaving wierd, and doing things "totally out of character" or what we would deem out of character. It is literally as if they are insane. As a health professional, I myself have much compassion for those who are really sick. I have forgiveness for them, I hurt for them, and I realize those mentally impaired might not actually be totally aware of their actions being so bad..

And that is how it is in the beginning when you deal with your WS. We learn here how to deal compassionately with them yet learn ways to try to heal the marriage, work on things from our end and use techniques that have helped others along our same route.

However, there comes a time when a determination is made that our WS,(again not all progress to this point in waywardness, but some do...my x did)have literally no remorse, continue doing the same negative behaviors and some even get worse...I have a good one to cite here..

My xh 3 years ago at Thanksgiving told me that he was "going to take our son on a boys' trip to disneyworld on thanksgiving and spend five days there." We were supposedly "working things out" and I was heavy into MB learning and riding the rollercoaster full time. He was into his first known affair at that time. He pretended to work on us and give things a chance for almost six months before the "he stinks" revelation came out. Turns out, my son took my then three and a half year old son to disney, stayed at the same hotel WE stayed at on our honeymoon, and forgot...FORGOT to mention that his OW was there as well.

How did I discover? OW "forgot" to remove her baggage tag from MY son's stroller...my son's stroller was ticketed to her. I found it on my child's stroller when we were going to have Santa pictures made.

Now that is stupendous stinky behavior. Two months later, I had hit the end of plan A and fell into a huge plan B and the divorce immediatley ensued.

You will get to a point if they do not have their fog clear, where you see their actions clearly. You realize you have done all you can do to help your marriage and family recover, but just as in my field, there are some who are unable to be saved. They just flatline on you. It is that realization that they are 1)purposefully NOT choosing to do actions that are positive towards your marriage or family and 2)completely void of any feelings of guilt or remorse that we begin to realize they are not coming back. That the person we once knew is "not there anymore".

That's when it becomes pure stench. When you cannot ATTRIBUTE CHARACTERISTICS OF A DECENT, MORAL PERSON to your ws anymore. It happens.

But thankfully, here at MB some marriages are saved. And we hope for that and we pray for that. But for the real waywards out there...the ones that do not at some point have that awesome realization of their actions, they will usually get worse and worse.

The stinky actions of the very waywards are indeed stinky.

ESPECIALLY IF THE STINK HAS BEEN AROUND FOR SOME TIME AND THEIR POOP IS DOING NOTHING BUT PILING UP AND UP AND UP...AND NO CLEANING UP FROM THEIR SIDE IS HAPPENING.