I think your C is nuts!! It is very hard to find a good one.

The one my FWW and I used told me that women in general had been persecuted and repressed for so long that stepping outside of a M was a natural reaction from an empowered woman. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

But perhaps my favorite was at the end of the last session we attended with her when she asked if we had any questions. I said yes, I'm having a hard time dealing with my anger towards my WW and her A can you give me any advice on how to deal with it? She looked me square in the eyes and said Mr. E you must lay your anger down. NO FREAKIN JOKE I'd have never thought of that. Gosh if she'd have only said oh andby the way just don't worry I could have saved my self all those sleepless night and an ulser.

Redhat, I don't like generalities either and people generally assume that if someone has lots of schooling they are really smart and my experience tell me that that just ain't always true.

I just got home from seeing my family physician. I told her about what my C said and she got pissed. She said "What kind of liberal is he? I just want to ring his neck!" I really like my Dr. She's cool as hell. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> She knows my situation because I told her when I went on the AD.

MIF

Your MC is giving you good, practical advice on how to save the M. You may need to think about what he said rather than what you think you heard.

A WS has an A because his/her ENs are being met within the M. So, the WS is having his/her ENs met in part by OP. Once the WS is having his/her ENs met in part by OP, it is very difficult to stop the A.

The very first thing you have to do to save a M is to get rid of OP. How do you do that?

One proven method is with Plan A/Plan B. What the MC is trying to get you to do is "Plan A". In Plan A, the BS tries to fulfill the needs of WS so as to "ween" the WS off the OP. As you fulfill more of WS's needs, the WS has less need of OP. At some point, the relationship between OP and WS ends.

What your MC is saying is that if you were to fulfill 90% of WSs ENs, then there would be little need for WS to maintain the A, and that the A would soon end.

At this point in your relationship with WS, she is getting a lot of her ENs met by OP. The A isn't going to end until that changes.

Understandably, you are focused on the A. What the MC is asking you to do is to step back and look at what may have caused the A and work on remedying those problems.

To go through your post one item at a time:

"He tells me I am hung up on the fact my WW has an OM." Obviously. But, you can't get rid of the OM by focusing on the A.

"He then says that maybe I should just accept the fact that if my WW was getting 90% of her needs met by me and the other 10% by OM, that the OM is not really a threat." This is true. If she were getting 90% of her needs met within the M, the OM would, sooner or later, go away.

"he then said, well I can see that maybe the OM is meeting closer to 40%-50% of your WWs needs and I understand your concern. It definitly would indicate there is more going on than WW is admitting to." He is telling you that you are no where near 90%, and thus the A isn't close to ending.

You may want to try to lower your barriers a little and think about what he is saying rather than simply reacting to it. A MC is not there to tell you what you want to hear. They are there to listen to you and give you advice.

<small>[ December 28, 2004, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: Jimmy Mac ]</small>

Dear MIF?
Your counselor was right on in your first statement.
"The OM is no threat if meeting only 10% of your W's needs". Did you really listen to your MC? By your thread, I don't feel you will ever be able to forgive nor learn to trust your wife again unless you open up your ears and hear her needs. Her needs will meet your needs and vise versa. Perhaps, your W and MC both understand this about you and that is why he told you this. The OM would be long gone if you would stop interegating your W in style that you choose. I doubt she feel's safe to express what her real issues are. IMO you should really start listening. I am sorry you are going through this. I am too with my WH. Open your heart...A's aren't always just about one person. It's about both of you in your marriage. Work through this or move on.

I realize that A's are not about one person. I realize my WW wouldn't have done this had I been meeting her needs. It's just that I thought the MC was ludacris by suggesting I allow the OM to continue to meet WW's needs. I mean, what is wrong with wanting NC? I guess I wouldn't have a problem if he were only meeting about 10% of her needs, which was how it most likely was prior to 8/27/04 when they decided to cross the line and took it to the next level, which started this whole mess.


MIF

***I realize that A's are not about one person. I realize my WW wouldn't have done this had I been meeting her needs.***

And what need were you not meeting?

Her need for attention from more than one man, the way so many WH have a need for attention from more than one woman?

I certainly do not object to a *short* Plan A in which an attempt is made to be a better partner and improve a poorly functioning marriage. But I think that saying "My WS would not have done this if I had met all their ENs inside the marriage" is right up there with "My poor confused WS is trying to choose between me and the OP and decide which one they like better."

Some -- I would think most -- people who turn outside their marriage do so out of selfishness and self-absorption. Their ENs are pretty outrageous at the time and *impossible* to meet inside a marriage. This is not the fault of the BS.

I could not be ten different women for my H. I could not be a lonely single desperate for a boyfriend (especially when she's drunk,) a trashy office tramp who publicly bends over in front of him, a pole dancer, a Vegas showgirl, a stripper in a sleazy bar that his brother got to sit at the table with them, a porn star, or a wh*re. But he absolutely *loved* all of this and saw no reason not to have them when he was being such a "good husband" (his words) to me when he did get around to coming home. Oh, and of course, he was paying all the bills so that made it okay too.

Should I have tried to be all of these things to my H so that he wouldn't run around, and made myself even more insane in the process? (Hey, I was halfway there with the porn star thing, but even then -- there was only one of me and that was NOT enough no matter how good it might have been.)

Yes, by all means, take a good hard look at your marriage and see where you can be a better partner. But don't let the WS hint that "you drove me to it by not meeting my ENs." Some so-called ENs are so outrageous that no one person could hope to meet them.

Edited to add: Getting your ENs met by a variety of people is called Being Single. Working with a partner to get your ENs met from that one person is called Being Married.

IMO, all WS are trying to be both married and single at the same time and will do whatever they have to do to achieve this (lie, manipulate, deceive, threaten, bully, etc. etc.) and honestly think it is okay for *them* to do this. Unless and until these people are willing to work with their marriage partner to get their ENs met within the marriage, it is cruel and destructive to let the BS blame themselves for something that was impossible to do at the time.
Mulan

<small>[ December 29, 2004, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: Mulan ]</small>

I get tired of MC and IC getting quoted on the forum and folks having a go at what they *think* the counselor meant. NO ONE KNOWS, and it sounds like the person quoting the counselor had a problem too...so the answer to disagreeing with something your counselor says is to...get another one? What about confronting what you thought you heard?

I have been misconstrued in what I have said to someone when I reflect back, or say back to them what I thought I heard them say, only for the person to hear me saying I agree with them. Spouting back what a person just said is NOT agreeing with them. Taking a session out of context and quoting them on an open forum to gain...what?...insight into what hte counselor said?...to determine if it is right or wrong?...that's up to you, and your counselor to talk out.

BTW, if you were sitting across from me and spouting off about OM and WW I would tell YOU they were non-issues too (especially the OM). YOU are the one sitting there, and YOU are the only one who can change in this situation at this time with what resources YOU have.

Sorry, off my soapbox now...it's been a pet peeve of mine for awhile, glad I got that off my chest...

"It's just that I thought the MC was ludacris by suggesting I allow the OM to continue to meet WW's needs."

First, I know you feel really bad. I wish no person had to go through what you are going through.

It is very unlikely that you caused the A. Probably, the A occurred because she couldn't communicate to you or herself what she wanted.

I don't understand your use of the word "allow". You cannot dictate what another person wants, needs, thinks or feels. You can no more "allow" OM to meet WW's needs than you "allow" the skies to rain. WW has to understand that you can help her meet her needs better than OM.

The responsibility for having WW's ENs met is hers. Assuming that you love her, then you would help her meet her needs without OM.

WW has certain ENs. ENs are "needs", not wants. She *has* to have them met. Once a WS has his/her needs met, he/she can't go back to the way it was.

You and she can either (1) determine a way to have her needs met within the M; (2) get a D; or (3) convince her to live a life of misery.

This is not nearly as complicated as it sounds. Usually, the ENs aren't that big of deal. You and her should do the questionaires on this site. They are very good.

Also, since you and she are in MC, you should post more in the "In Recovery" section of the board rather than here. You'll find more people who have survived an A and have a more rounded perspective.

I really enjoy reading your posts Jimmy Mac.

I too do not feel it is up to the H or W to meet all the EN's of either spouse. But we do need to help them find them when possible without taking ourselves down or doing something that is not right for us. It is not a case of H or W changing, it is more about the M changing. That is what M and loving someone is all about.

If the WS blames the BS for anything...whoa, step away from them until they receive professional help or as I read "use Plan B".

We all play apart in an A, but bottomline, the WS did the deed. No one can force you to do something you don't want to do. If my H had blamed me or vise versa for any of our problems, I don't feel we would have made it through 23 years of marriage and I would not be here writing this today.

It's not about blame or who's right, who's wrong. It's helping each other through hard times. It's about creating a safe place to communicate your feelings and your needs with openess and honesty as best as possible. If EN's can not be met in the long haul, well then we need to move on.

Have a better day MIF. This too shall pass. You will become a better person through it all. Please believe me.

BS 47
WH 44
DOM013082
DD112304
S21 D15