Excellent, excellent post L.I.T.! In all fairness to Mulan, I think sometimes it is difficult to find the time to look over and fully understand a poster's history before responding to something, especially something that triggers.

Not everything fits into a neat little box and it is tempting to assume that if something went a certain way in your particular recovery process that it will be the same in someone else's especially if you see similarities. I'm sure no harm was meant but your words to Mulan were wise, L.I.T.

John and Dawn's situation is somewhat more complicated than most and I and many others can vouch for John in terms of sheer effort and diligence to understand how to do the best he can to restore his relationship with Dawn. Much of what Dawn is experiencing and saying right now has a lot to do with intertwined issues IMO.

John, I'll get back to you on that when I have time. Don't lose hope....finishing lines are scary remember. I'll have something on expectations and trust for you to mull over, probably tomorrow. KB

***And I would caution you to seriously examine why you feel you have a right, but another human being does not......find the source of this reaction.***

Well, I don't believe I ever said that *I* had a right to anything that someone else does not -- not sure what you mean by that -- but you are right, this is a very sensitive topic with me.

I spent a very long time having my feelings ignored and/or manipulated and being told what I should do to "recover." Triggers were just a great big annoyance to WS, until he finally seemed to Get It. He doesn't feel that way anymore.

My first thought was, Three triggers a week? Is that *all*?? Wow, are you ever lucky!

My second thought was, You set fire to the house and then you complain because everything in it is scorched and damaged?

But you are right, I should have stayed out of this one. There is still far too much pain here.
Mulan

I spent a very long time having my feelings ignored and/or manipulated and being told what I should do to "recover." Triggers were just a great big annoyance to WS, until he finally seemed to Get It. He doesn't feel that way anymore.

How in the world can the F/WS tell YOU what YOU need to recover??

I am sorry if I came across sounding like its an annoyance to me for HER to be triggered. Its not. Its a big issue for me. Its one big aspect I can do nothing about.

Thank you for coming back and explaining Mulan.

<small>[ December 29, 2004, 11:12 PM: Message edited by: john3479 ]</small>

KB,

Thank you for the encouragement. I have to admit at times I do wonder if I am doing the right thing.

John
you mentioned she had an affair 10 years ago so you feel you know what she is going through..OOOKKK
ahhhh I wonder if you ever thought YOU had not fully got over that and let yourself go into your A??

What I'm saying is...... if it took you so long you know how long it will take her and maybe the both of you need some heavy MC work on ALL of this....

If you had held onto resentment for so long it may even be affecting how you relate now when the shoe is on the other foot.

I know I have this problem of resentment and it takes a lot not to brood on it at times.

just an idea John from the left field..

a2,

I dont really think I have any resentment over her affair.

We are both in IC right now. She doesnt want to do MC until she has addressed some deeper and truly more important issues

opps double post

<small>[ December 29, 2004, 11:33 PM: Message edited by: john3479 ]</small>

She is working on issues that HAVE to be taken care of no matter what happens with the marriage

<small>[ December 29, 2004, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: john3479 ]</small>

john3479,

Speaking as a BS -AND- as a woman who had some additional, serious issues to address (sexual abuse, physical abuse, PTSD) I want to encourage you to not throw in the towel just yet.

When a person goes to IC to work through some of the issues of the past, at first the person thinks, "Going to counseling will make me feel better." Then...the person has to remember things they have either stuffed down and tried to forget -or- they have ignored and numbed out for years. Remembering how scared you felt when your parents threw things at each other and tried to choke each other with the phone cord is VERY hard and does not make you feel better AT THAT TIME. So the person in IC thinks, "HEY! I don't feel better! I feel WORSE! This isn't working--it's cr*p!"

As I understand it, john3479, your wife has her own personal issues to work through. As she is working through them, she is likely to resist, struggle, and hurt like HECK! She is going to squirm and try every trick in the book to avoid it. And in the end, she is going to go through it, like a train in a long dark tunnel, she will eventually see the light and be through the tunnel! Some of what she says and blurts and fumes and fusses NOW will not really have to do with you or her or the triggers at all, but with the agony of having to face her personal issues.

HOWEVER... note that I did not say "all of what she says and blurts...". Frankly, john3479, some of what she says really may be what she feels at that moment. She may feel like giving up on the IC and the M because if she stops digging into all this stuff, she won't hurt anymore and she can go numb again. Of course, that's not realistic, but some people do spend a lifetime trying to avoid and deny!

"...3 in a week is a bit much..."? I realize you are not saying this as a limit to how many triggers she is "allowed" to feel, yet I'm surprised...3 a day was more my speed!! There were so many little things that reminded me of OW and how my H's heart was hers and she was better and I was just a last resort. Actually, 3 in a week is not too bad!! I guess my point here is that I agree that the reassuring litany (done in your own words in your own way of course) really is best. I would have been THRILLED to have the response to my triggers be reassurance: "I love YOU and I choose YOU" "You are so much more beautiful inside and out" "You have my heart and mind now" "I can not apologize often enough for what I put you through...I am so lucky." These kinds of statements would have worked wonders.

Do not throw in the towel. If you can not move forward today, don't give up...just rest where you are. Some days, not going backward is actually going forward!


CJ

john---ok, you got the book. have you read any of it yet? there is stuff in there for exactly this kind of situation. read it now and start doing it asap!!!

another thing that is bothering me---do you really think she doesnt look at the sticker on your car and think to herself..."got that from that bit*&!". she was trying to be cavalier....get rid of the damn sticker too---on your own and have her order you a new one!!

i know you really want to fix this, read the book and start doing the steps....they are for you and her. how much faith in you do you think she has when your allready willing to give up. you may not have said it but im sure she is feeling it from you. how will you ever be able to handle the hard road of recovery if you want to give up allready?

Nikko,

Decal is gone. In fact I am looking at a different car all togeather.

I didnt get to the point of wondering if she was right until after she left last night. While she was here I still continued to tell her I was sorry, I loved her and I would do everything I can to make this up to her. That I want us to work, and I feel we can do it since we had been doing so good.

good----glad to hear the decal is gone. its been bothering me since you posted it.lol

you have to be her rock.....period. no waffling. she doesnt trust her most basic of instincs right now and i can tell you that really messes with your mind. finish the book and start doing what it says.....even if she doesnt come back...you will know you did everything.

something you need to realize john, even when we sound harsh with you, we want to see you make it. we, as bs's get our undies in a knot when we sense the rightousness of a ws overpowering common sense. if you are in it---then be in it--good or bad. no waffling. you are in immense pain, i understand it, but it is a pain you invited. she didnt, that is a fact. i understand you wanting to make it all better as fast as possible, but for a bs....im not sure that is possible. be steady, be strong.....be her hero.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> While she was here I still continued to tell her I was sorry, I loved her and I would do everything I can to make this up to her. That I want us to work, and I feel we can do it since we had been doing so good.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that's exactly the right thing to do.

Give her some time, she's struggling, but I don't think she's ready to throw it in either.

I understood what you wrote as...you thought 3 triggers were too much for her to handle...not in a bad way at all.

Follow the advice given, don't push, remain consistent...which I think you are...VERY consistent.

Think of this as 1 step forward, 2 steps back for right now...in a little more time..things will improve significantly.

Have you tried sending her a note.... just really a heartfelt note ?

But again...you reassured her, showed remorse, and offered her your conviction to getting PAST this when you had the opportunity....many WS..wouldn't see the opportnity..and would have missed it.

Hang in there.

understand you wanting to make it all better as fast as possible, but for a bs....im not sure that is possible. be steady, be strong.....be her hero.

I am trying to be steady. I think I have done pretty good so far, but she was so unemotional when she told me that yesterday.

but I am not going to let this be the end all. She has said I was doing good, and this had nothing to do with anything I have done recently, so I am going to keep doing what I have been doing.

If it worked this long it will continue to work. I just need to give her time to get over a very painful week and be there for her.

Actually its been more then a week. There have been alot of things recently that have been an emotional upset for her. She is going through h*ll right now, and THANKFULLY Im not responsible for all of it. Im fact I am responsible for just a small fraction of it. I was just her " sounding board " and she felt safe lashing out at me since she couldnt lash out to anyone else.

good! now dust yer self off and get reading! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

you can do this...you sound as if you love her more than anything. how are your kids doing? you havent said to much about them. i know i went catatonic when d-day hit and was so lost for so long i had one son who got into a lot of bad things.....keep a close eye. it has taken me years to un-do that. i couldnt even function...i truelly was alone and broken.

if you want to discuss the book as you go you seem to have a ton of people to help you sound off of. my husband is reading it now. let me know how it goes.

Nikko, That you SO much for the book. I dont know how much of the situation you are aware of, but it helps in alot of ways.

Thank you for asking about my boys. I have to admit they have made me VERY proud. Since September they have changed schols twice. ( Once at the begiining of the year because of the move and split, then just a few weeks ago because we were supposed to be moved by the 5th of December.

Through it all they have both remained A and B students even though they both hated the school they started the year in.

I tried to copy and paste something out of the book, but couldnt get it to work, so I am going to have to type it out. I am going to do that a little later tonight.

Hey John,

I just want to say to all---John is one of the hardest working husbands IMHO. He has tried and tried and then questioned and then questioned. You amaze me with your ability to keep digging to find the answers you need.

So John,I just had a thought. I was thinking about your posts last week where you were the one ready to throw in the towel. Did she read that? Is that what could have put her over the top?

Cuz, honestly 3 triggers in a week doesn't seem enough to throw it all away. That's just me though. I mean I had to adjust immediately because the OW's first name was the same as a girl I have known since she was 2 and love her like my own daughter. She is 23 now.

Some questions about Dawn. Is she afraid you may quit on her if she commits to you? Is that a legitimate fear of hers? What have you done to prove you are in it for the long haul? I am not attacking you when I say I am still not convinced you are in this no matter what. Just an observation friend. What about what your boys said? Does she know that or sense that? Does she feel welcomed back into the family?

Something else to consider is that she has a lot of issues to deal with. And at least for me, I can only deal successfully with one maybe two big issues at a time.

The year I was so suicidal was the year 1st husband left for ow, divorced me, I got pregnant, had my house foreclosed, had to bury same husband bc of his suicide, buried by grandmother and dear aunt and of course to top it all off, I was fired from my job. It was a peach of a year. And honestly I didn't deal well with any of those issues until things settled down some.

Just thoughts. Don't know if it helps just wanted to help you think about what has transpired over the last few weeks.

Tiggy

John,

An after thought. I am not sure how to say this. Uhm, because of the living situation with you and the boys and Dawn with her folks....Has an *us* (you and the boys) and you (Dawn) developed? If so, she may feel a bit on the outside looking in. I know my husband felt that way when we weren't living together.

I had to work really hard to make my husband and I a team. And in a way push my older very protective daughters out of my inner thoughts and feelings. They have their own lives anyway and don't need to be burdened with mom's ups and downs.

Again just thoughts

Tiggy

You amaze me with your ability to keep digging to find the answers you need

I cant see doing anything different. I caused part of this problem, its up to me to take the lead to fix what I can.

I was thinking about your posts last week where you were the one ready to throw in the towel. Did she read that? Is that what could have put her over the top?

I honestly dont think that had anything to do with it. We discussed that and I explained why I was feeling that way.

Cuz, honestly 3 triggers in a week doesn't seem enough to throw it all away.

Ok, sit down, prepare yourself. Those were the FIRST triggers she has had that direcly had to do with FOW. This far into it and those were the first times she was basicly thrown up in Dawn face.

Is she afraid you may quit on her if she commits to you? Is that a legitimate fear of hers?

We both have the fear that the other will quit. Its happened before. Not after this much work on either part, but we are both guilty of in the past just sweeping things under the rug and falling back into old habits.

I am not attacking you when I say I am still not convinced you are in this no matter what

Well I cant say Im in this no matter what. I can say though it will take ALOT to get me to call it quits. I am no where near the point of calling it quits.

What about what your boys said? Does she know that or sense that? Does she feel welcomed back into the family?

This has gotten better since she moved from her parents to my brother and SILs house. The boys feel better with her living there and they do get to see her more.

Has an *us* (you and the boys) and you (Dawn) developed

I have tried to avoid this, but to a point I cant. There are some things that have to be addressed as a WE with the boys and I and not Dawn. I do try and keep that to a minimum though.

Thank you for your questions, and your belief in me. I really am trying as hard as I can.

I do know you are trying. I think if I looked up TRY in the dictionary I would see your picture <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . Hang in there friend.

And Dawn if you are reading here, you have a diamond not so much in the rough anymore. Step back if you have to girl but don't throw the diamond out just when it started getting shiny <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Pulling for you too girl.

Tiggy