Then you really have no choice. In light of her attitude I agree with your idea of the new exposure letters regarding the emotional wellbeing of the children very much.

If love of children won't do it, then may a little shaming will.

Maybe they respond better to shame and humiliation, some people do.

Shame away.

That's my opinion anyway.

Binder,

As always, I preface my parenting advice with the following disclaimer:

My parenting experience consists of:

- in the past, I helped to raise a wiener dog, who I currently don't have custody of.

- currently, I am "parenting" a 3.5 foot tall cactus (how many meters is that?), that I named Prickly Pete. I have to water him once a month.

So, with that said.......

I'm going to disagree....a little.

You definitely need to do that which protects/educates your son. That should be paramount in the process.

Writing a simple letter that states what you wish to "show" your son through this. Married is married, not is not. He needs to be shown the distinction between the two.

- educating your son. Accomplishes the objective....

- a letter to WW. Accomplishes the objective....

- a letter to the OM. Accomplishes the objective......

- exposure to OM's colleagues? I'm not so sure. While it would serve to shame and humiliate the couple.....maybe (at best, remember it's not adultery!) It could also provide ammunition to your WW if she chooses to paint you as the "unstable" parent.

I would tread carefully with this subject.

Leading by example and what you would like to happen would be the better path, as opposed to dictating in a situation that you can't completely control, in my eyes.....

Just my $.02 (U.S.),
Ethan

Binder,

I really feel for what you are going through right now. I came within a hair of the same thing happening to myself. Thankfully something changed on WW side and I was to avoid the situation entirely (at least for now!). Not sure if it was the things I said to her or the R with the OM, but I don't really care... I'm just glad to have avoided it altogether.

I didn't expose my WW's A to the kids, but did to pretty much the rest of the world. I know I'll have to tell them more than "Adult problems" at some point, but I decided they are already going through enough right now without having to deal with that. Not sure its the right decision or not but it's what I decided to do. Still trying to figure out when and how is the best way of presenting this info to them... sigh... one of my on-going battles....

Please keep my posted on what you decide to say/do and how it turns out. I too live in Canada and I'm very interested on how things turn out in your situation.

Good luck and if there is anything I can do to help, please let me know.

All the best,

Miker

You have every reason to be livid, Binder. You know I'm there with you.

But I don't think writing letters to OM's colleagues will accomplish anything, other than providing the infidels with further justification for what they're doing. You will come across to them as a crazed lunatic who deserves to have his kids taken from him. Her reaction to Plan B is an example - it demonstrates your lack of communication skills. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Been there, done that.

Not to be a defeatist, but I believe your best posture is to be the best Dad you can be, er, rather, continue being the best Dad you can be - playing the hand you've been dealt. In time, the rewards will be yours.

You know that I know this sucks. It's like having your kids kidnapped with no recourse. Stay squarely atop that moral high ground and no one will kidnap your integrity.

WAT

Miker,

I have some access to some social workers/psychologists that specialize in child welfare issues. I'm sure they would love some inquiries that deal with an issue so very benign relative to the horrors they usually deal with. I will keep you informed. I will also look through some of your threads to see how the heck you got full time custody...did your WW agree to that?

Thank you for the offer of help, I certainly can use all insight into this mess and even my reaction to it.

WAT,

Yes, it feels radical and you're probably right as to how it will be perceived. I'm having a difficult time watching my children get dragged into a quagmire and watching from the high ground. I'm not a passive man when it comes to a crisis and every fiber of my being is screaming at me to dive in and extinguish the threat by any means possible. I understand the "less is more" philosophy and the careful application of such, but it is contrary to my instincts presently. My kingdom is under attack from within and I'm rendered impotent by circumstance. .

The very mantra WW chants to deflect criticism "This is not adultery" is the very reason my children need to be insulated from the amoral environment. I cannot comprehend how one can look these actions and essentially maintain that they are an appropriate model for a life choice. The ability to rationalize this disaster and make that statement will never cease to amaze me.

My energies and frustrations seek an outlet. My knee-jerk reaction is to call my lawyer and begin the divorce. I am well aware I'm not in the appropriate headspace to make such a decision and that It will not solve the issues my family is presently immersed in. It is an action disguised as a solution.

I fear that maybe the "alien abduction" metaphor is somewhat inaccurate. Maybe it is more akin to the parasitic alien infection in the movie "Aliens" where the monster kills the host.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Binder:
<strong> Miker,
I have some access to some social workers/psychologists that specialize in child welfare issues. I'm sure they would love some inquiries that deal with an issue so very benign relative to the horrors they usually deal with. I will keep you informed. I will also look through some of your threads to see how the heck you got full time custody...did your WW agree to that?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes she agreed to it. Taking care of children aren't part of her "new lifestyle". As far as I can that's the only way I could have gotten full time custody.

I should also mention that in some of the books I read they don't recommend telling kids about affairs (contrary to advice you'll get on this site). I definitely wouldn't want to lie, but I'm unsure exactly how much you should tell them. Some of the professionals you mention hopefully can help you.

Take care,

Miker

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Binder:
<strong>....every fiber of my being is screaming at me to dive in and extinguish the threat by any means possible. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's because you're a good man who knows what's good for his kids.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Binder:
<strong> The very mantra WW chants to deflect criticism "This is not adultery" is the very reason my children need to be insulated from the amoral environment. I cannot comprehend how one can look these actions and essentially maintain that they are an appropriate model for a life choice. The ability to rationalize this disaster and make that statement will never cease to amaze me.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You remember comparing notes and concluding our respective aliens were beaming back and forth to the same Mothership, right? Mine spewed the same "This is not adultery" chant so often that it became clear to everyone that she was trying to convince herself. To this day she still denies an affair took place, even though she married the guy she wasn't having an affair with 5 months after our divorce.

But little by little my son is showing his realization of reality. I haven't tried to convince him since the very early days of the affair when he overtly blamed OM's W for his Mom moving out of our house.

A standup comic on TV one night spoke these insightful words: "We should never bad-mouth our ex-wives in front of our kids. It ruins the moment when they figure it out on their own."

WAT

dern aliens must be sending interference

<small>[ January 03, 2005, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

dern posts

<small>[ January 03, 2005, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

dern

<small>[ January 03, 2005, 11:50 AM: Message edited by: worthatry ]</small>

I spoke to our resident psychologist today. He’s a very nice man whom I have a lot of respect for. I figured I could spill my gut to him and get his take on the child issue and how much information to give them.

He agreed that lying to the children is not appropriate. He also feels, however, that any other “moral instruction” based on WW’s notanaffairoradultery actions will not be in the best interests of the children. He said that my perception of the relationship is obviously not one shared by WW, and she will defend her actions as appropriate. My son will not be sophisticated enough to filter out her rationalizations and will simply see the two most important people in his world telling him conflicting views. He feels it’s too much for the youngsters and I need to simply be the best dad possible.

He got into the guts of the affair a bit with me and showed some surprise that the other staff psychologist that we initially sought for marriage counseling recommended a “constructive separation”. He felt that is only a last resort when someone has made up their mind to leave anyway and all other options were explored. We agreed that WW may have told the other psychologist something along those lines in private, but I never got that sense as it was me…..stupid me…..that agreed to do it.

He felt I was doing quite well given the circumstances, but offered the services of some well respected psychologists if I felt I wanted to see them…all on the companies dime. He further said that if and when we divorce, he knows of a couple of excellent family psychologists that are “magic with children”. He did point out, however, that the first session with that counselor is with both parents in attendance. All subsequent sessions are individual. That I will take him up on.

Good stuff, Binder. I'm comforted that it pretty much validates my approach since the early stages.

In discussing my son's understanding of things with my SO last evening, I described my long term goal: Eventually my son will come to me and say, "Dad, I now understand that you tried your hardest to do the right things. You've demonstrated for me how I should defend the right things. Thanks."

Don't know when or if this will ever happen. It may come in a more subtle way or indirectly. Until then or if it never comes I believe he now realizes deep down that one of his parents was dreadfully wrong. Imagine that conflict in the mind of a child. Too bad this extreme cost of an affair on vulnerable children is not comptemplated by the affairees before it's too late.

WAT

Binder, I don't know all of your situation, where you live, etc., but it surprised me to learn that in certain jurisdictions is illegal for a spouse to expose their children to adultery.

Just thought you might want to know.

WAT

One day your son and my children will be old enough to realize that we are simply men, people with flaws like any other. At that time I too hope they can see that when confronted with a horrific situation, we did all we could with their best interests andthat of their mother’s at heart.

Bad d Good d

I've explored and continue to explore my legal options. Here in Canada though, I know of no lawful mechanism to prevent the contact. I continue to research that aspect and will be speaking with another lawyer in that regard.

You may want to discuss the following with your lawyer. It is from the Canadian Criminal Code.

172. (1) Every one who, in the home of a child, participates in adultery or sexual immorality or indulges in habitual drunkenness or any other form of vice, and thereby endangers the morals of the child or renders the home an unfit place for the child to be in, is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years.

(2) [Repealed, R.S., 1985, c. 19 (3rd Supp.), s. 6]

Definition of "child"


(3) For the purposes of this section, "child" means a person who is or appears to be under the age of eighteen years.

Who may institute prosecutions


(4) No proceedings shall be commenced under subsection (1) without the consent of the Attorney General, unless they are instituted by or at the instance of a recognized society for the protection of children or by an officer of a juvenile court.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 172; R.S., 1985, c. 19 (3rd Supp.), s. 6.

Good luck.

Well I'll be danged BDGD, isn't that interesting!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by bad d good d:
<strong>(4) No proceedings shall be commenced under subsection (1) without the consent of the Attorney General, unless they are instituted by or at the instance of a recognized society for the protection of children or by an officer of a juvenile court.

R.S., 1985, c. C-46, s. 172; R.S., 1985, c. 19 (3rd Supp.), s. 6.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To me this means a social worker would have to initiate the proceedings. ie. You couldn't initiate it yourself. Its also really vague... "or any other vice..." So it would be up to interpretation of the judge.

You may, however, be able to use this as leverage in convincing your WW to sign an agreement specifying non-contact with partners without prior approval of the other party.

I'm no lawyer though. Best to run it past them if you think it would be of any use.

Miker

Binder, you out there?

Are you winning?

Miker