Dear FWS I need your insight once again.

Quick summary of my recent sitch : I really leverged Squid in the month before Christmas into discussing the real nitty gritty stuff. It was like pulling teeth but the discussion were ALL opened.

So, she knows what I want to discuss and what I want to achieve. I STILL don;t know what she wants to dsicuss and wants to achive !! She won't tell me !

We agreed to have a "no R talk" time on vacation. It was Lovely and Squiddy THRIVED. In truth , so did I. She was funny and light, and interesting, and sexy and carefree and just plain lovely. A great Mom and lovely person to be with. The unpleasant alter ego made an appearance just once when her sister visited with us in Miami, but that was just one night and she was back to good ways the next day for the rest of the holiday.

And that, in part , is my problem. She behaves exactly as if theres nothing to worry about most of the time. She has a good life , risked it, but providentially has it back and is living it.

I was withdrawn today and Squid asked me why. I replied "I have sad days, baby. This has been one".

Squid asked " Why are you sad ?" ? !! WHY AM I SAD ?????? FFS !!!! ARRRGH !!

It appears to my untrained eye that Squid is over the affair and thinks I should be too. This means she has no inkling of the damage she did me nor the healing we BOTH need to survive this. ELSE she is in serious denial.

Help me, O dear FWS, to see what REALLY happening in her head and heart.

She has said and STILL says things occasionally that show she cares , has changed and wants to fix our M but these are not daily events. Coupla times per week maybe.

For example, we had a really nice day in Key West last week. we all loved it and got back tired but happy to our apartment in Marathon where we were staying. I hugged my baby and said " Y'know Squid, some days I REALLY think we're gonna make it ! ".

She pulled back and asked: " So the other days you think we won't make it?". I replied that some days I think we won;t , some days I think we will but I ALWAYS hope we will make it and I make every effort to achieve this.

Squid was really withdrawn next morning, reading a paperback on the verandah all morning, rather than playing in canues or the pool with me and the kids. Very quiet. She wouldn't say what was wrong when I asked.

I think she is under the impression that everythings ALREADY okay and that I surprised her !

I believe that SHE thinks the affair was a love story in her life, not a horrible dirty betrayal and so will always be a bittersweet memory for her as she spends the rest of her life fairly happily with dull old Bob.

She won't read SAA or MB yet so she has no way of learning the truth of affairs - that they are NOTHING to do with real love.

I need to discuss this with her but I won't do it before I leave for Vegas next Friday. I don't want to leave under a cloud so to speak.

Am I wrong ,FWS folks ? Is denial really a normal behaviour at our stage of recovery or am I reading her mind correctly you think and I need to try harder to get her to read SAA ?

Help me interpret Squid's behaviour for me !

THANKS !

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I was withdrawn today and Squid asked me why. I replied "I have sad days, baby. This has been one".
Squid asked " Why are you sad ?" ? !! WHY AM I SAD ?????? FFS !!!! ARRRGH !!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is quite normal and Myrta has done the same, but now she seems more understanding. My wife WANTS TO MOVE ON! She does not want to drag this out. I have the same intention------ I want to move on, but somehow I cannot do it as fast. I think this is quite normal. If she is bubbly and wants to live normally that may be a good sign and perhaps OM is nothing more than a distant memory.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I believe that SHE thinks the affair was a love story in her life, not a horrible dirty betrayal and so will always be a bittersweet memory for her as she spends the rest of her life fairly happily with dull old Bob.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That is exactly how I feel when I am down. I cannot comprehend why the FWW would want to come back. IF I HAD EXPERIENCED WHAT MY WIFE EXPERIENCED it would be difficult to come back. But, I am looking at this thru the eyes of a person who cannot lead a double life. I can only have one relationship at a time. In my mind-------- if I fall in love with another woman I am a goner------ Myrta is history. However, I have never done that. It is quite possible I could turn the OW off and come back to the wife, but I am only speculating.

Like you---------------- I always question why my wife came back with dull old Stanley.

This is what I do to get out of that rut. I compare my positive and negative qualities against OM. Then I realize it is a no-brainier.

The only thing that gives me trouble is the fact that we are the OLD and OM is the NEW . The latter (the NEW) has magic of its own that we as the OLD cannot recapture very easily. I posted this question to Cerri who said that there is one instance where the BH can elicit the same brain chemical love reaction that the OM caused. That situation is the realization by the WW that BH is going to end the marriage. I guess it is the------------ “You never know what you have until you are about to lose it”. Of course this only works for WWs who want to stay in the marriage.

I know your wife gives you SF and IMHO that means she really sees something NEW in you. At least she is not like countless of WWs who are unable to have SF with H. I think this desire to have SF comes from the realization that they may lose the marriage. After D-day if I mentioned the word divorce Myrta was all over me. I didn’t know it at the time, but I have no other explanation. BTWthis works both ways--- If Myrta wanted to divorce me I would also have the same brain chemical reaction. But------------------- WAITA minute----------- I already have the brain chemical reaction. Her affair was a threat to the marriage; the realization that I could lose Myrta-------- and voila------- my brain chemistry changed.

Myrta gave me a ton of SF for 3-4 weeks after D-day when divorce was in the air. Once she realized divorced was unlikely she became depressed and entered the typical withdrawal period. She lost her libido, but still tried to give me SF. In summary Bob---- I believe that if the FWW is providing SF we may not necessarily be the OLD.

Maybe Myrta can give her opinion. I have always been baffled by the SF pattern that followed D-day.

<small>[ January 01, 2005, 08:14 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

Bob, tell/ask (?) her to read those books. I have met Anyname and know that 2 yrs past Dday she still has terrible lows all related to her husband's affair. Of course, the good days are also there. It is a life altering experience and it would be shallow of Squid to imagine you can just pick up the pieces. If you are off to Vegas, it would such a reasonable request to ask her to at least read one book, especially if that book has made sense to you and helped you to see the dynamics of affairs.

However, I can relate to Squid. I am a BS and I don't like to dig up dirt. I'd rather look to tomorrow and pretend the events of Feb last year didn't happen! We all have our ways of coping. TT

First things first:

(((((BOB!!))))) Yay!! I'm glad you're back--missed ya! I'm also glad to hear you had a good holiday!! Yay!!! I was praying for ALL of you to be able to relax and enjoy each other!!

Okay...onto your questions. Bear in mind that I am a BS, not a WS, but I've been here forever and think I may have a thought. Part of the recovery for a WS is that at first they don't really believe that they CAN enjoy the company of the BS...so I think for Squiddy, part of her starting to love you again is letting her guard down a little and letting herself have fun with you. Thus...it may come across as if she is just wanting to pull the rug over the elephant in the living room, when in reality it is partially her way of moving the elephant out. Just keep that in mind.

Next, I would also suggest (knowing you and Squiddy as I do) that she probably does not want to examine the dynamics of "what makes an affair" because that means she would have to examine herself and her weaknesses--AND that her affair was not "special". It is my personal opinion that she would like to hold onto the idea that her lovestory was "special" and simultaneously, to as quickly as possible remove the sword from over her head...and her usual method is to somewhat ignore, isn't it??

Finally, I don't mean to be general here (as in "all WS's are...") but is it not rather consistent to say that sometimes a WS is rather self-centered or selfish? If that is so, doesn't it make common sense that in her head, if SHE is over it, then YOU must be too?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Thus, it may be somewhat of a shock to her system to hear that you are not where she is.

This is where transparent honesty comes into play. I believe it would be openness to tell your spouse, rather succintly, that you require X, Y, and Z for marital recovery for you. Personally, I also believe you need to open up and TELL her the damage that has been done to you. This is going to take REAL guts--revealing yourself like that--but I think this white knight thing you've been doing has got to continue.

((BP)) Glad you're back--sorry you're still hurting.


CJ

Hey Bob,

Well, I'm not a FWS, but I think I know what you're going through as I've had many of the same thoughts that you're having...

First off... ask yourself this question: If Squid did everything that I wanted, exactly as I wanted her to do it, right now, would I be compeltely happy and be willing to never mention the A or any of the horrid details ever again?

Bob, it takes time... I know the feelings that you are going through right now... Squidy is "getting over" while I'm still dealing with the pain... Looking back, I can tell that my W most definitely dealt with the pain that she caused me and our family during the affairs... it just wasn't at the same time that I was dealing with my pain.

I think it's common for most WS to appear to "get over it" much quicker than the BS.... but as you both progress (and yes, it does appear that you and Squidy are doing very well), Squidy will eventually realize the pain that she's caused you and the family...

Bob, it's been 4 years since my W confessed all of her A's. We've both been through MC, she's been thorugh IC, has had severe bouts with depression, and we've also had two deployments thrown in for good measure.

Bob, my W was just awesome while I was home on R&R... I think that as you focus your energies more on building Squiddy up and showing her that you are working to be the best husband that you can be, that that will do more for your M than worring about Squiddy showing your the proper ammount of 'remorse' over her sins. She will eventually 'pay' for her sins and you must be there for her to pick her up and show her Christ's love and forgiveness...

Semper Fi...
RIF

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She won't read SAA or MB yet so she has no way of learning the truth of affairs - that they are NOTHING to do with real love.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well... give her the book as you leave for your trip... and say sompin' like

"I really want us to heal from this trauma and affair-proof our marriage. This book (SAA) has helped me so much. It would mean so much to me if you'd read this whileI am away."

See how willing she is to filling a specifically stated need of yours. A really simple pro-marriage request.


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Help me interpret Squid's behaviour for me !</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Typical (VERY TYPICAL) conflict-avoidance behavior of a WS who does not want to look directly at what she's done. Want's to "move on" painlessly rather than "work her way through" which is difficult and demanding. NOT AN OPTION for true recovery ---> in my opinion.

The timing is about right. Set your boundary clearly. She should be feeling safe enough now to face the wounds she inflicted.

Good luck. Start the New Year right! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Pep

Bob:

Definitely hit your own conflict avoiding tendency head on and do something like ask her 2 read the books.

Then, leave it up 2 her. It will mean more 2 you if she comes 2 the realization of the horror of the A on her own and makes amends 2 you of her own volition, rather than being "coerced".

And remember that it takes time.

Some of us have been waiting years for the light 2 truly shine. YEARS. If this 2rns out 2 be the case for you, learn 2 find joy in the journey rather than the perceived destination.

-ol' 2long

Bob,

Because my H did not find out about my A for a long time after it was over my perspective is a little different, but here goes. It took me some time into the A to realize that I had what I wanted to at home. I did not want this FOM. I saw his temper, his possesiveness and jealousy and I realized that what I wanted was fantasy not reality. I had children, a home and a husband who not perfect loved me. No I was not getting my needs met in my M, but I realized after my H's A's that I was truly selfish to think that my needs were more important than the health and safety of my family. Bob, that took me quite a while to figure out.

Hope this helps, yuck I hate seeing myself in that light. Maybe Squid does too.

Bob

There was a time when I acted and wanted Aussie to 'just get over it' and 'move on' without any talk about the affair, us, a future if there was one.

I was frightened, very very frightened that should he make me answer questions about the affair, the whens, hows, times, what we did, how we did it, all of that...yuck feeling talking about this ... he would dump my cheating adulerous a$$ on the street and divorce me. I would loose my H and my family for ever.

So I tried to avoid any talk about this until our counselling kicked in and I was cornered, I had to answer his questions over and over and over......it sickened me and him but he needed it and eventually he stopped asking. SHe will take some time to accept this but getting a good MC will be a great help.

You are right Bob she IS avoiding any talk and its probably fear. Fear on a lot of levels. Fear you will learn the details and change your mind - don't assume you won't because people do thats what she is frightened of - won't want her, reject her.

Get the counselling up and running asap and do your talking there. Another thing we did was limit our R talk at home to set periods - we put the kitchen timer on - so that it didn't overwhelm us , well me really. About 30 to 60 mins depended on issue.

Bob - I wanted to touch on something that AW mentioned... I should have mentioned it it my first reply...

My W told me that she had a constant fear that I would "dump" her as well... for us, I really didn't see any big changes in my W's attitude or actions until I'd made many changes with myself...

In short, I believe that it's sooo important for us BH to provide a safe place for our wives... until we do, then they won't feel safe enough to open up with us. Bob, it took me a long, long time to get over my pain, anger, shame, and such... but as I dealt with my issues, my W felt safe enough to start dealing with all of the pain and hurt that she caused me and our family...

I suspect that as you continue to provide that safe place for Squid, and hopefully find a good MC, that she will eventually come around and show the remorse and sorrow that you are so looking for right now... Be patent with her, but at the same time, be very clear with your boundaries of NC with the OM.

Semper Fi,
RIF

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 02:37 AM: Message edited by: RIF ]</small>

Thanks folks. Helpful. Keep it coming.

I dunno if I will stay in our marriage when I know the full details - who can say ? - I just know that I won;t stay in the marriage if we do not EXAMINE the message of the affair.

Also I know a whole lot of details of the affair from OM GF. OM has opened up totally such is his regret and penitence and the relayed info matches the bits and pieces Squid has told me. I don;t think I'll hear anything that will shock me from Squid but I DO need to hear it from HER. And its not the sex positions etc. I can guess that, its the first time she did something with him that she would NOT have done when I was there - a kiss, an intimate conversation, a lie...I want to know stuff like that.

Only then can we start to examine evidence as to why teh affair happened and how we can prevent it ever happening again.

Tough stuff.

* Rif, special thanks. I must continue to make Squid feel loved and cherished against my instinct at this time. It will get easier for me so to do again, I have learned this.

Hello,

Am new to this site...and would like to know the meaning of all those abbreviations you used!! What are SF..IMHO??

echobonita

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I dunno if I will stay in our marriage when I know the full details - who can say ? - I just know that I won;t stay in the marriage if we do not EXAMINE the message of the affair.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, trust me on this... as long as Squid maintains NC with the OM, and you continue to provide a safe place for her... then I truly believe that you will eventually get to a point where you both will examine the message of her affair... I completely understand your feelings right now and I said many of the same things...

Pep was right in that at some point, Squid is going to have to eventually either cut bait or start fishing.... Be firm with your NC boundary with the OM, but be gentle and understanding with Squid so that she'll eventually get to a point where she will feel safe in disussing the A with you.

It took me almost a year of solid MC to learn how to provide a safe place for my W.... then it took another couple of months for her to finally start opening up with me... In that respect, I believe that you are WAY ahead of where I was... Keep showing Christ's love and forgiveness to Squid and I think that you'll eventually see her turn around and give you all the information that you need to put her A in the past.

I'll be honest, there are still some things about my W's A's that I don't know... but we've worked through all of the "big" issues and have both come to an understanding of the messages from all of her A's.

It takes time... it takes patience... it takes lots of hard work... and IMHO, lots of prayer.

You're doing great... hang in there!

Semper Fi,
RIF

Thanks RIF.

Let me be honest with you now - one reason I am reticent to reinforce the already 'safe place' comfortable, loving life for Squid any further now is that I do not want to set unfair expectations with her. Right now I have days where I KNOW we're not going to make it. Other days I am certain that we will. Most days I just don't know and I get on with my life.

Our relationship since NC has progressed SO well it's actually getting quite difficult to maintain a distance. To not 'need' her again.

I do not want to go back to being a dependent person validated only as half of a marriage. I MUST invest less than I did before and in fact I must learn to engage with Squid and in our marriage in a whole new way without the automatic full trust and avoidance of conflict that has coloured the previous 18 years of marriage.

In order to define that NEW Bob person I need to process the message of the affair.

That make any sense ?

Squid's every behaviour SCREAMS that she wants to put the A in a box marked 'regrettable decisions, never open again' and just resume our previous life.

Trouble is while I have made MANY changes to improve life for HER as we resume our marriage, Squid has yet to do anything for me other than maintain NC and be more loving and affectionate.

To restart our lives while the balance of effort is still so unequal will not work. I deserve better.

So - are you saying that I must not tell Squid of my pain and fears even in the gentle ways I do now so that she may become confident in a certain happy future together for us?

I try to employ RH is the rest of our lives, it would be hard to lie about how hurt I am or how confident I am for our recovery.

More honesty ? Part of me WANTS Squid to feel she needs to work to keep me. I want her to value me enough to take voluntary uncomfortable actions lke R discussions, EN meeting, recognition of character and behaviour flaws. I want her to "Plan A" me.

Hard stuff. I dunno what to do.

Stupid thing is if I was happy to accept our pre-A marriage we'd be recovered now. We're more intimate and loving than we've been in years. But still so unequal in investment.

Maybe this is all garbage. I'll have a think and post some clearer stuff later perhaps.

Hi Bob...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> In order to define that NEW Bob person I need to process the message of the affair.

That make any sense ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Makes perfect sense to me! Besides, you don't want the "old" Bob or the old marriage, right?... that's what got you to this point in the first place!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Squid's every behaviour SCREAMS that she wants to put the A in a box marked 'regrettable decisions, never open again' and just resume our previous life.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yep... My W was the same way for a very long time... "Hey, I've said I'm sorry, can't you just forgive me and let's work on making our marriage better?"... Bob, I know how you feel... Of course Squiddy wants to move on... why would she want to re-hash all of the pain that she's caused you and the family?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Trouble is while I have made MANY changes to improve life for HER as we resume our marriage, Squid has yet to do anything for me other than maintain NC and be more loving and affectionate.

To restart our lives while the balance of effort is still so unequal will not work. I deserve better. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok... here comes a very heavily padded 2x4... Yes, you have made many positive changes... but for now, you've got to continue to work on yourself without worrying about how Squiddy responds. Are you making the changes in order to "make" Squiddy respond in a certain way, or are you making the changes in order to make your M better? Eventually, she will come around. Oh, and I do agree with you, you DO deserve better... you just have to have lots and lots of patience.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So - are you saying that I must not tell Squid of my pain and fears even in the gentle ways I do now so that she may become confident in a certain happy future together for us?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not at all. Bob, you must be totally honest with yourself and your feelings... to do otherwise is to not be honest with Squiddy... and remember, one of the things that you are learning is how to be totally honest and open with her. It took me a long time to learn how to let my W know that I was hurting w/o it sounding like I was just bashing her for her A's... This is one area where MC can really help you both. Have you considered phone counseling with the Harleys? I know that you've mentioned that there aren't many good MC in the UK...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Part of me WANTS Squid to feel she needs to work to keep me. I want her to value me enough to take voluntary uncomfortable actions lke R discussions, EN meeting, recognition of character and behaviour flaws. I want her to "Plan A" me.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I suspect that Squddy is still a bit worried that you'll throw her out... my W was worried about that for so long and I never really knew why as I never even considered leaving her or throwing her out... Be honest with her, be patient with her, show her Christ's love, and she will eventually come around.

Bob, you've gotten through the hardest part... the rest of the "process" isn't easy, but Squiddy is there with you.... she's working on the M with you(even though it might not be at the speed or depth that you'd like) and your kids still have both their mom and dad...

You and Squiddy will have many hard days ahead of you... but try not to focus on the "bad" and keep your eyes on the end result of rebuilding your M into what God intended for you and Squiddy to have when you both said "I do" 18 years ago...

Semper Fi,
RIF

Bob

I think you maybe expecting far too much from Squid right now.
I’m not talking about what you eventually want out of her within the M, her commitment and behaviour etc, they are reasonable.
I mean I don’t think she has the ‘tools’ to work on the M or the understanding she needs to be honest and answer questions, to change her behaviour and meet EN‘s.
In other words, she has no idea of MB like principles to enable her to improve the M.

I believe she thinks that if she boxes up the affair and the adultery and hides it away, and she reverts to doing all those things ‘better’ that she did with you and for you BEFORE the A she will have ‘her’ marriage back.
Of course that’s not clear thinking and not reality.
Right now she can’t see past that and your obvious statement of not sure if it will work out if it keeps going like it is was a big shock to her I think.
She really needs a good MC versed in the MB type methods, doesn’t matter what its called, but those clearly set out ideas of support, EN’s, radical honesty etc, etc . I don’t think she has any idea of how to start or of the importance of answering your questions.

Do you think she might post here or with Cerri or someone for M coaching at saveyourmarriage perhaps???

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> BOB said: Part of me WANTS Squid to feel she needs to work to keep me. I want her to value me enough to take voluntary uncomfortable actions lke R discussions, EN meeting, recognition of character and behaviour flaws. I want her to "Plan A" me.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">then....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> RIF said: I suspect that Squddy is still a bit worried that you'll throw her out... my W was worried about that for so long and I never really knew why as I never even considered leaving her or throwing her out... Be honest with her, be patient with her, show her Christ's love, and she will eventually come around.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Now Pep says:

Bob, your "taker" wants to be served. Your "giver" is running low on petrol and is sputtering.

Bob, in my journal, I wrote about my H "never discussing his affair unless I BRING IT UP!" ... I was as outraged as you! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This is typical. I suggest that you do not wait for her to volunteer unveiling her warts to you .... she's a woman who wants to appear attractive and worthy of a man such as yourself... it ain't gonna happen unless there is a PLAN of recovery. Like marriage counseling. BOB ... Plan A is NOT a part of recovery! Plan A is very lopsided with effort only going one-way. You say you want her to Plan A you ---> but that is NOT recovery. Plan A is a behavior only suitable while trying to end the affair ---> Plan A creates resentment if it goes on too long. Ditch that idea.

RIF said "be honest with her" ___> that means telling her when you feel sad or afraid. Tell her you are going to tell her ---> " Squid, I trust you enough finally to be completely open with my feelings. This means I will share with you difficult-to-discuss, emotionaly volatile issues that are burning me on the inside. I want to show myself to you, not to hurt you, but because I love you, and I trust you to love me .... even when I am in pain, showing you my wounds."

Ask her if she has a suggestion of a format for this type of intimate honest sharing. Ask her if she'd like to make a time limit ... or other format decisions.

Tell her "I want this to be two-way intimacy. I am open to listening to your wounds as well. We have both been hurt by this awful adultery. Let us turn toward God, and toward each other for solice."

Do you hold hands with Squid and pray together every day?

Pep

Pep,

Thanks for sharing that last post. I wanted to quote a few parts but the whole entire post is quotable.

Just what I needed today <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

TJ

AW,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I mean I don’t think she has the ‘tools’ to work on the M or the understanding she needs to be honest and answer questions, to change her behaviour and meet EN‘s.
In other words, she has no idea of MB like principles to enable her to improve the M.

I believe she thinks that if she boxes up the affair and the adultery and hides it away, and she reverts to doing all those things ‘better’ that she did with you and for you BEFORE the A she will have ‘her’ marriage back.
Of course that’s not clear thinking and not reality.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes.

Bob:

Part of the profile of some WWs is insecurity and low self-esteem. With these two things in mind it is easy tom see why they don’t want to talk at all. Occasionally you see a WW with no issues of self-esteem and they tend to recount the whole affair with no secrets left behind. This marriages tend to heal much faster! Then you have others------ like my wife who will release the info by bits and pieces over a LONG time. This slows down recovery, but it is better than nothing.

I used to think it was cruel from your part to tell Squid you were not committed to stay married, however, if she has given no info I can see why you think that way. I had no idea you got details from the OM’s GF and not from her

My wife also struggles with the concept that the affair was a beautiful romance versus a slimy relationship based on deceit. Understand that WWs need the former to feel better about themselves. Remember the went into the affair because of low self-esteem------------ to admit the affair was pure crap would bring down the self-esteem even more.

My wife still tries very hard to see redeeming values in her OM, but as time goes by this illusion seems to fade more and more. By their own nature OMs tend to be scum and in our case OM fits the mold perfectly I think WWs need time to accept the fact that OM was not a real man.

BTW, my wife was more open to me once she realized I was not going to leave the marriage. They need to feel safe before spilling their guts.