Great stuff everyone thanks.

There are NO ZERO pro marriage counsellors in the UK that I have been able to uncover. NONE.

Phone counselling may work, and if I mandated it Squid would sit in I am sure but she would not be an active and willing partner for ages and ages.

It worries me a lot but for now I am alone with you lot in saving my marriage. Scary huh ?

I would tell Squid she's perfectly safe in our M and I will not leave her but that would be a lie. Today I don't know if I can get over the betrayal enough to restore a marriage we both deserve. Only now do I realise what a dreadful marriage we had before the A ( and in fact what a dreadful marriage MOST people have).

I'll use 2longs point and leave Squid homework while I am in Vegas next week to read SAA.

I will say " if you are serious about saving our marriage you will read this book. What have you got to lose by so doing ?".

We'll see if that leads to a possibility of phone counselling.

Squid has been scathing in her dismissal of my reasearch into surviving an affair and MC. "Books can;t reda my heart" she says. She still believes she had a tragic love affair and won't read ANY book that may show her otherwise. IMO she's trying desperately to cling to the belief that what she did was somehow justified by real love like in the movies.

Mebbe I should print off truehearts letter to FWS fo rhe to read when I am working in Manchester on Monday ?

I will read all this thread in detail and respond more later. Thanks all.

Bob

what she feels about the affair is not unusual in FWS, many think the same to a certain extent.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt is it.
I was pretty good at that.

As for NO pro marraige counsellors in UK..MMMmmmm well I know where there are some but I'm not sure where you would stand is seeking help from them.

I'm referring to counsellors from the Catholic Church Bob, we CANNOT divorce and remain within the faith as practising catholics so ANY counselling HAS to be pro marriage.
Our MC/IC is Catholic and in Aust they are very open to people from other faiths to come and seek assistance, not sure what its like in the UK.

Just an idea for you to find out if possible Bob. Especially if you explained you wanted a Pro marriage counsellor to retain the M, they may at least be able to refer you to someone who is very pro marriage.

AW thats a very very interesting idea. I hadn;t considered that. Squid is a catholic by upbringing BUT was full-immersion baptised as I was ten years ago. So the catholic crew may not be so very happy.

Worth looking into though, thanks AW.

Squid just got back from collecting our 12 YO DD from a friends house and she is lovely and I love her. Why did she have to spoil all that by having a bloody affair ? WHY ?

Grr.

I think AW's suggestion is awesome! ... and not just because I was thinking the same thing myself!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Get church-based counseling ... no excuses... just do it.

If it turns out to be "the not-so-good counselor" ... get another/a better one.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Oh Bob if I knew why I did I'd pass it on to everyone. As for Squid I guess she'll never know for a long time EXACTLY why she did.

I can see the path there and the traps I fell into but WHY did I jump into it truly I dont know. There was not even the slightest thought of affecting my M, never entered my mind at all.

So easy to just say EN's etc but I wonder if it is so much more I didn't even know was working away inside of me.

All I know is that I am very wary of easy answers these days.

Big brotherly hug ((((((BOB))))))

BOB--I think it is unfair from you to let your wife believed that everything was going in the right path. You said many times here, that she was giving you lots of SF and that everything was going ok. And thats why she probably feels that there is no reason for you to feel sad, because she thought that the affair was behind and your recovery as a couple was going well.

Why does she have to show you over and over that she is sorry for the affair? HOw many times a week will satisfy you? If you truly forgive her, you try to move on, like she is doing. She knows the affair is there between you , she is sorry for it. JUst because she does not say it, it does not mean that she is thinking that she had the love story of the century!!!

Thats why she did not want to participate in your activites by the pool and so forth. She is puzzled by you. She thought everything was going well. But you remind her over and over that you dont know if you will ever be over her affair. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />
You tell her that you dont know if your marriage will really survive in the long run. I am sorry, for if Stanley was telling me that, I would also feel dejected,feel unloved, unworthy,etc. Thats why she cannot open up to you, because she is not feeling safe to do so. If she opens up, she thinks it will give you more reasons to walk out, to terminate your marriage.

If you truly love her like you say you do, you really have to show her, and tell her assuring things. That will be the only way for her to open up and tell you what you want to hear./

Myrta

Myrta I have never led Squid to believe anything other than my perception of the truth.

SF is not a sign of marital recovery in our situation, it is a high EN of my wife.

It is Squid who has the high libido since we started recovery, so in truth I have been and AM meeting HER SF needs. It is not she giving me SF. More me giving it to her.

How can I tell her that our marriage will survive in the long run ? How can I know that ?I have been completely honest with Squid and with the folks on here that some days I am FULL of hope and some days I am not.

If she ( or you, Myrta as a FWW) want a cast iron gurantee that everything will cerainly be OK I after only three months of NC you will get only hopeful lies from me ( or your BS) IMO.

Yes maybe Squid is confused, but I do not think by ME as I have been transparently honest with her since about 2 weeks after d-day. She knows when I feel optimistic and happy,and she also knows when I am not.

How can it be loving to tell Squid false assurances Myrta? Also recovery is not about what "I want to hear" - its about what we both need to discuss and change in our lives. This can surely only come from open exchanges of hopes, fears and needs.


I would take your 2x4 if I believed any part of it was deserved DEAR Myrta, but I truly believe it is not.

I am sure that Squid would like certain assurances from me that everything WILL be alright between us but she has taken a quarter century of love and investment from me and thrown it into a motel bed with an unemployed, pensionable, ugly, deeply unfashionable, serial womanising petty criminal dwarf.

I have done ALL I can so far to be a lighthouse - to build a non-judgmental , loving place where Squid could return to a heal in, and by every measure this has been successful - Squid has a nice life now, is mostly happy and healing.

Maybe thats enough for some BS but not for me. I need us BOTH to share the tools to deduce the MESSAGE of her affair so we can prevent a recurrence and decide intelligently together if we have a future together.

'A comfortable life' without Squid contributing HARD to the rebuilding of our M is not fair and is not sustainable. And it is not enough for me.. For us.

I appreciate you caring enough to comment Myrta, but I really do not accept your criticism of me at this time. I have not done what you say I have.

I agree that Bob should not laud hiw FWS adultery over her head. However, I can imagine how dear old Bob is having a hard time feeling good.

Bob is second choice.

Myrta says:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You said many times here, that she was giving you lots of SF and that everything was going ok. And thats why she probably feels that there is no reason for you to feel sad, because she thought that the affair was behind and your recovery as a couple was going well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I read from this is that BPure probably feels now, after the initial surge of SF, is that Squiddy is trying to distract him from his other needs by over compensating with SF.

Harley says that you can't overcompensate for one EN and expect that to replace the other EN's.

It wouldn't be the first time I was off base, but BP is not feeling his EN's are being met outside of SF.

Bob, I'm a failure here, but I want to encourage you to chip away at these EN's. Both in meeting Squiddy's and letting her know what yours are. Set some short measurable goals for the EN's your not getting enough of from Squiddy.

Chances are she might never see the OP as the ethically bereft homewrecker that he really is.

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

Chances are she might never see the OP as the ethically bereft homewrecker that he really is.


And THAT Tom is a big problem I have. However I supress it I need Squid to see teh facts of he rcase unfiltered through her rose tinted glasses.

He openly lied to her about the state of hs own R, his desire to live with her and other stuff. He IS a serial womanizer, three divorces, and several proven affairs tell that story. He IS a petty criminal and child-support avoider.

I don't think I can ever recover while she sees him as any kind of decent , admirable fellow.

I just can't. How can I ever feel like a desirable husband again while she thinks that ?
I expect a 2x4 for this but its a fact.

If she could tell me now that she felt used by him I'd feel 100% more confident about our recovery.

Bob, good post above. You very eloquently expressed my own feelings about what my STBX has done to our family and what kind of person she chose for her adultery.

But most especially you were right on when you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Also recovery is not about what "I want to hear" - its about what we both need to discuss and change in our lives. This can surely only come from open exchanges of hopes, fears and needs.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fully open honest comunicaton is esential to understand and prevent conditions from arising that will entice people to make the immoral choice of an adulterous affair.

Lets face it, if you (or I) enjoyed fully open and honest communication with our WW prior to the A, it probably never would have been able to grow in the filth and secrecy where it hid.

And yes Bob, I understand the need for the STBX to see her "soulmate" homewrecker for what he is. My STBX homewrecking OP was camshow pervert. He had even tried to do the same with other people we knew. But that didn't discourage my STBX. As she told me last night... he was a "good man"

I asked her to never use that term for him again with me. Then she said no... he's not a good man. THAT Bob is the whole point of open honest communication. I get the feeling she is just saying what she thinks I want to hear... but her real feelings are that he is a good man.

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Tom Joad ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

How can it be loving to tell Squid false assurances Myrta? Also recovery is not about what "I want to hear" - its about what we both need to discuss and change in our lives. This can surely only come from open exchanges of hopes, fears and needs.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am pleased with your response Bob...

Pep

BOBP- <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I am sorry if I was somewhat harsh with my post. NOt my intention at all!!
I just want to also try to see what she is coming from..BOb, you dont think she knows that the OM is trash? That the OM is a worthless piece of s...?? She knows all this!!!! One way of me coping with my terrible mistake is trying to put behind all this, trying ,trying!!! Of course I know that the OM does not come up to my husband's heel!!! I know this, but I dont want Stanley to remind me. I dont want to pay forever for this!!! I want us to move ON!!!

I know SF is not a sign of recovery!! But can you imagine if you did not even get it?? YOu would be insane by now. At least you know she has sexual desire for YOU!!! Other WWs dont even give that to their spouses! My Stanley would have gone completely off the wall, would be in the looney house, if we did not have that. But we talk about the Affair. I am sure he wants more talk, but I do talk to him. He knows that I am sorry, he knows that I want US to have a better marriage.
Bob, your wife loves YOU, he knows the OM is a crappy person. She does not believe that was a beautiful Love Story> We only believe that (WWs)while the affair is going on, while we have the veil of the fog over our eyes. After a couple of months we see the SAD THRUTH!!!!

SORRY again!! You are a good guy, and I know you want to have your marriage and your wife!!!

Take care

Myrta

BP:

Immediately after D-day when Myrta thought I was going to divorce her I was showered by daily SF for about four weeks. Then I promised her I was not leaving and she lost her libido. Cerri was right the threat of losing one’s partner can change brain chemistry. It certainly changed my too!

In any event, it took my wife a long time before she felt somewhat secure. In fact, she still feels that I could walk out on her at any time. It is not pleasant to live like that Bob. In the exterior Squid feels great, but deep inside she is living in fear.

In the mean time you have discovered a gold mine-------------- lots of SF! In my case SF makes me feel quite good. If my wife did not give me SF I would be a goner. I suspect you would be a goner too Bob.

In any event, the fact that Squid wants SF is a huge positive . I believe this means she wants to save the marriage as much as you do or even more.

One more thing--------------- for many weeks after D-day I had a terrible internal struggle which I kept to myself so I would not torment Myrta. I would swing between reconciliation and divorce 100 times a day---------------------- to be honest, I was miserable. Things got much better once I convinced myself that I was staying married and that I was going to forgive everything, including further revelations. Once I convinced myself that there was nothing I could discover to change my mind I was at ease and things got better.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">but she has taken a quarter century of love and investment from me and thrown it into a motel bed with an unemployed, pensionable, ugly, deeply unfashionable, serial womanising petty criminal dwarf.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know exactly how you feel Bob-------------- BTW, you forgot OM’s tiny penis. I pondered WHY ME a million times Bob. OM was a beast ------------- not Hollywood material!

You know why OM was like that? Because it was safe to have an OM like that! The affair had nothing to do with love------------ the affair was all about low self-esteem Bob. Please help Squid get over her remorse and make her feel safe.

Bob----- my wife hurt me very deeply, but when I learn who OM was and how she got involved I also felt sorry for her. Squid needs you as much as you need her. I also felt sad because somehow I must have made a crucial mistake in my marriage and that drove my wife to the beast or petty criminal dwarf. BTW, our OM was also a short-------------- me a six footer.

From your post I see that you want to make sense out of this. Why the affair? WHY, WHY, WHY????

Bob; I gave up! I will never be able to understand why my wife had SF with OM. It is one of those things that have no explanation. I suggest you forgive her and tell her she is safe with you. Perhaps other FWWs can tell us why, but I just don’t get it.

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

Bob, usually I grow weary of the bashing of the OM long after the affair has ended but this was funny -

unemployed, pensionable, ugly, deeply unfashionable, serial womanising petty criminal dwarf.

In fact I am still giggling over it! And then Stanley adding in about you forgot the tiny penis. OMG too funny.

This thread has been very interesting, and I must say that before reading this Bob, I thought you were just obsessing so much that I would grow impatient with you. I did not understand how deep the hurt and betrayal went and how unsure you still are regarding what is going on in Squids mind.

I wonder how your recovery would have differed for you if the affair would have ended differently, as in a Plan B, and Squid having to work her way back into your marriage.

I used to think that you had it easy compared to most, but now I can see that this was not so. I'm glad I read this thread as it has caused me to learn a great deal, and to lose an awful lot of assumptions and a certain prejudice of my part regarding your sitch, even though I am of no help to you. LOL My apologies for that Bob.

Sorry, Bob, I've deleted.

I feel sort of vulnerable outside I-ville. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I'll talk to you there when you're next on. OK?

Jen

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]</small>

Kiwi, Myrta ... I agree with you that the WS has to have some security with the BS. They have to know that they won't be run out on.
HOWEVER, It was the BS who was run out on, dumped, abandoned, discarded, deceived, rejected, etc. Where is the security for them. In just the words of the FWS? Where is the security in being second choice to a homewrecker?

My STBX acts like she wants to come back all the time and then I get slapped back with the reality of her actions and attny letters. What security does the WS provide to the BS? How do they let them know it won't happen again, ... Especially when they demand for you to just get over it, or put it behind you.

Squiddy should work on giving Bob what he needs to be secure too. He is the grievously wronged partner. Until he has that security how is he ever supposed to be able to put the pain of this ordeal behind him.

Recovery of intimacy after adultery is NOT about the size of OM's unit, or OW's bra size, or how ultimately desirable the OP is/is not.

Recovery is about the emotionally honest risks you and your spouse are both willing to take in order to really SEE each other ... not through romantic rose-colored glasses ... but through gut wrenching sharing, crying, and loving.

REAL recovery is painful. Like childbirth, there is labor involved. Pushing and sweating.

Recovery of intimacy is revealing one's vulnerable tender area to your spouse ... even if doing so is likely to cause your spouse discomfort. That is the labor of rebirth of the marriage relationship.

Recovery intimacy is anti-conflict avoidance.

Saying nice false reassuring things is a set up for more conflict avoidance.

Recovery is HARD.

Pep

Pep and Tom, I've started this reply about 4 times and I'm still trying to put what I mean. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

For the first 6 months after d-day we talked non-stop, ad infinitum, ad nauseum about EVERYTHING. Betrayal, trust, grief, anger, how it happened, why it happened, everything. It was tough, it was exhausting, it was recovering.

Eventually, we reached a stage where days would go by and we wouldn't mention it, then life started to become normal again (better normal <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ).

Now it comes up occassionally but briefly. Rob actually thinks the time I spend talking to everyone here sometimes hinders my personal recovery but after I explained to him the silliness I usually spend my time discussing, he was happy.

BTW this month marks 12 months of complete and total NC.

I still don't think I've said what I meant to say. I guess the difference with me and Squiddy is that I came to MB on my own to find out everything I could about rebuilding a marriage and Squid is still unaware of how "un-unique" she is.

Jen

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: KiwiJ. ]</small>

thank you for this thread. i am struggling big time right now. i would suspect that my BH would be thinking the same thoughts as you. and then i did a terrible thing today, i told him i wanted a divorce. so now exactly how am i giving him the security he needs. well obviously i am not.

for as much as i feel i have learned here, sometimes i think i am no better of a person than day 1.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">..BOb, you dont think she knows that the OM is trash?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> That the OM is a worthless piece of s...?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Of course I know that the OM does not come up to my husband's heel!!! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bob, your wife loves YOU, she knows the OM is a crappy person.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NONE of these comments move the marriage recovery forward... because none of these comments address the problems within the marriage. This is all superfluous to the issue at hand.

My husband was "the OM" 9 years ago ---> I guess that makes my husband "trash" and "a worthless piece of s***" and "lower than a heel" and "a crappy person".

Describing these things about "THE OM" like having a small penis (or whatever) does not serve the recovery process.

Whatever insults the formally wayward says about their former affair partner is an equally valid insult that might be said about him/her.

There is no point to this type of revisionist history, other than to trash-talk the former affair partner in order to avoid looking one's self in the mirror.

Pep

<small>[ January 02, 2005, 07:38 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>