you said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Now its been some weeks since she expressed any opinion whatsoever about her affair, but in the absence of categorical statements what am I to believe ?

Spurious I know but the mind plays tricks.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't know how to answer your question, but your response is so true (about the mind tricks). I think that's part of what makes recovery so hard.

RIF also said something that is good to focus on now. Try to not think about what was lost but what you can build on. And when you're in Vegas later this week, keep busy and avoid the distractions and sin of Vegas (while realizing that you are probably pretty vulnerable right now). Best of luck to you.

RH said:

Try to not think about what was lost but what you can build on

Bob:

Another way of dealing with this loss is to treat it like death. Shortly after D-day I realized that a big part of my wife was dead and I could never have it back. This was extremely painful since the part of my wife that died was the part that was faithful to me. It was the part I knew I could rely on at any time. It was the part that I could trust and was incapable of betrayal.

It is not easy to have such a loss. The entire marriage was built on that part of my wife. I was left with the memories of 30 years of marriage plus five of courtship, but the images did not make sense. What I thought was a beautiful love story between two virgins had become a disorganized set of images with no purpose------- very much like a corrupted hard drive in a bad computer. Suddenly I realized that a huge chunk of my life had been wasted and that I could never ever get it back.

I mourned the loss of my wife and the fact that it could never be the same again. My wife confirmed to me more than once that it would never be the same. Marriage builders said it can never be the same. It is a terrible loss and one needs to accept the loss before additional healing can occur.

I am sad to report that the affair will always be a beautiful memory even if OM was built like an overgrown pimple. I am also sad to report that romance within the framework of an affair causes drastic changes in brain chemistry and a MAJOR obsessive component. Normal romance in the open also produces similar brain changes, but I believe the obsessive component is much greater in an affair due to secrecy and the fact that the encounters may be less frequent than in a normal open relationship.

It was quite difficult to accept that we as BH cannot provide this type of environment. Not only that-------- we are also an OLD relationship and OLD can never compete with the NEW aspect of the affair. So even if OM is built like an overgrown pimple he can give orgasms by his mere presence in the motel room. In fact 90% of the work towards achieving the orgasmic nirvana is already accomplished before the meeting in the motel room. The NEW is powerful.

I was only able to move forward once I mourned the loss of my wife and once I accepted that the OLD can never be as good as the NEW.

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 08:23 AM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I realise now that I will never have what I desire - an assurance that Squid regrets all parts of her affair, even the stuff that was fun for her at the time until it disgusts her enough to tell me spontaneously.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You do not know the future.

My H said this about OW in the weeks following D-day --->"She is really a nice person." "She never meant to hurt you." "She never spoke about you out of respect for you." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Later ---> "She is a very messed up and unhappy woman." "She's had 8 affairs before ours." "She was pretty mean when she gossiped about other people behind their back. Even her good friends."

I really don't think you have any business saying "never" when it comes to what your wife will or will not do in future recovery situations.

You really really need to set a firm boundary pretty quickly, as your love bank is dwindling. Tell her your love bank is getting all used up. When she asks you "WTH is a love bank?" ---> Hand her the book and say "Please read this. You will understand me a whole lot more. And understand what is going on with my love bank."

Peak her curiosity ---> and WARN her that you are not an everfull well of goodness without some emotional support from her after the affair tsunami.

Pep

Pepper said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> affair tsunami. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Wow, I wil add that metaphore to my affair armamentarium!

So you really think that hectic torrid romance full of obsessive behaviors can become a bad memory?

I am not so sure Pepita. My wife tries to see OM as an udesirable person, but a part of her still defends his actions with grteat vigor. When she says something naught about OM she is likely trying to inflate my ego. I don't think she believes OM is a bad dude at all.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am sad to report that the affair will always be a beautiful memory even if OM was built like an overgrown pimple. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not true ---> "always" is not true.

What is "always" with a person who has a functioning conscience (like Myrta and Squid) is the knowledge they let themselves and their family down ... in a BIG way. But, even that gets processed in a healthy way after the years roll by ---> into a sense of ackomplishment (or... accomplishment, if you want to be a stickler for spelling <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> )that they were able to put their lives back on track.

Relax gentlemen... there is no "always" when it comes to feelings.

Pep

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 10:11 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> So you really think that hectic torrid romance full of obsessive behaviors can become a bad memory?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely Stanly, I have NOOOOOOO good feelings about the A or about the OM. NONE, not even, he was a nice guy, NOOOO good feelings.

Extremly bad memory for me.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> but a part of her still defends his actions with grteat vigor. When she says something naught about OM she is likely trying to inflate my ego. I don't think she believes OM is a bad dude at all. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And this is more a self-defense of her own ego than OM's character.

BECAUSE

both affair partners are equally "bad dudes" .... and as soon as she admits OM is a "bad dude" she internally realizes she WAS made from the same cloth (at the time of the A)

And Myrta is very skilled at her own ego-defenses... but, she's getting there... and i think she's going to be one hellofa fantastic recovery partner ... on her time frame.

Pepita

Bob,

Been thinking about you. I know what you mean about the good days and bad. Sounds like you are having a wave of bad days...post holidays, maybe?

I jumped on your thread and did not have time to read the 6 pages of dialogue so if this has been said before, forgive me.

I hugged my baby and said " Y'know Squid, some days I REALLY think we're gonna make it ! ".

OUCH!! This jumped out at me. You both are celebrating a great weekend in Florida and you then drop the LB. No wonder she was despondent the next day.

Thats all I got.

k

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by krusht:
You both are celebrating a great weekend in Florida and you then drop the LB. No wonder she was despondent the next day.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please clarify for me what exactly Bob said that qualifies his remark as a LB???

I really don't understand.

Pep

Added:

selfish demand
disrespectful judgment
angry outburst
annoying habit
independent behavior
dishonesty

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 10:20 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Pep,

If not an LB, then a huge wet blanket.

I would consider it at least a withdrawal from Squiddy's Love Bank.

I understand what Bob is going through. Some days you just KNOW the M is not going to happen, other days you can't imagine it not happening.

I think if you want to rebuild and recover you must stay as POSITIVE as possible. And show your partner you are in it 100% or more.

If the agreement is made to rebuild and hopefully recover some semblance of what was, then you must totally concentrate on doing it. And go forward.

Doubts creep in all the time. I don't know if the doubts should be shared.

k

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is "always" with a person who has a functioning conscience (like Myrta and Squid) is the knowledge they let themselves and their family down ... in a BIG way </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well put, Pep. That is exactly what I have had to face in the mirror. Not pretty.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think if you want to rebuild and recover you must stay as POSITIVE as possible. And show your partner you are in it 100% or more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is an academic conversation between us, OK?

What about radical honesty as it applies to this area of doubt? How does one who is trying to stop conflict avoidance in the marriage going to deal with his/her doubts?

Pep

Doubts creep in all the time. I don't know if the doubts should be shared.

My H had doubts most of our M. Doubts about if I truly loved him. Doubts if I had been faithful. I did nothing to bring on these doubts, it was just his nature. He NEVER brought up his doubts. He was afraid of conflict & negativity. Over the years he convinced himself the doubts were TRUTH. Maybe if he had voiced his doubts, we could have solved many problems early in the M and prevented the vulnerability to an A.

ACK -double post

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 12:44 PM: Message edited by: Fraggles ]</small>

If my daughters ever find out they went to dinner and had to socialize with the OM they would be extremely hurt. There are two or three things about the affair that hurt the most and this is one of them. My daughters sat at the table with this man not knowing what was going on. It has to be the fog---- there is no other explanation.

Despite of all my trouble accepting everything (it is a process and it takes time) my wife Myrta has shown me that she is someone I can admire. I say this because I remember how Pepper wanted to make sure she could admire her H before having a full reconciliation. One great thing about Myrta is that she has immersed herself on this site and has offered her help to other WWs who are at an earlier stage than her. I know she has emailed a WW who does not post and has offered her help. I also know Myrta is sorry for her actions even is she still defends herself by explaining the actions of OM. We have talked about this. I say OM is nasty to feel good and in turn she has to say OM is not nasty to feel good. A strange game we play.

As I said above--- it is important for me to have admiration for Myrta and she has certainly done a lot to earn that!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by faithful follower:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> What is "always" with a person who has a functioning conscience (like Myrta and Squid) is the knowledge they let themselves and their family down ... in a BIG way </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well put, Pep. That is exactly what I have had to face in the mirror. Not pretty. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know I adore you !!!!

This too gets easier with time... per my husband <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> My H really likes himself post recovery. He is truely a new man.

Pep

Frag,

Doubts was the wrong word.

The negative images, movies, and scenarios in the BS head that will always be there, which lead to the negative feelings (doubts) about proceeding on with the recovery.

That's why we must be positive and try to banish those negative images.

Pep,

What about radical honesty as it applies to this area of doubt? How does one who is trying to stop conflict avoidance in the marriage going to deal with his/her doubts?

Bob is the one trying to stop Squid's conflict avoidance, correct? Her conflict avoidance occures when Bob brings up his doubts.

The doubts occur because of the negative images in our heads. How does radical honesty help move the M forward if radical honesty instructs us to relate the doubts and those images to the FWS who is trying to move on and leave the pain behind? By relating these images and doubts are you not taking two steps forward and 1 back?

Does radical honesty instruct us to bare our souls and wear our hearts on our sleeves? Maybe I don't have the whole concept of radical honesty correct. I thought it was to be openly transparent, not lie, overtly or covertly, and be true with your feelings.

I am fairly new here and know nothing.

k

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by krusht
Bob is the one trying to stop Squid's conflict avoidance, correct? Her conflict avoidance occures when Bob brings up his doubts.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. Bob has no control over Squid's behavior. Only his own.

Bob, by speaking up, is NOT avoiding the conflict that bringing up his valid feelings might inspire.

This is HONEST conflict ... discussing what the affair has done to Bob. This IS intimate awareness of each other's honest feelings.

Pep

When I am down I let Myrta know. She may think it is an LB, but I have to spill my guts right away. As soon as I do it I start to feel better even if she replies in a non-pleasant manner. I may ask about reassurance about one issue more than once, but that is the nature of the beast. Sometimes it is the same issue with a different angle. I strongly believe this helps the recovery.

If for one reason I cannot tell Myrta in person, I then spill my guts in the board and she will read my words. That may also be interpreted as an LB, but it is not. I simply need to talk and then talk some more until I don’t care anymore about the issue. Otherwise resentment builds and I don’t want that sort of unhappiness.

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Stan-ley ]</small>

Pep,


How does one who is trying to stop conflict avoidance in the marriage going to deal with his/her doubts?

So Bob is trying to stop HIS conflict avoidance in the marriage by honestly relating his negative images and his doubts to Squid.

This is HONEST conflict ... discussing what the affair has done to Bob. This IS intimate awareness of each other's honest feelings.

But Squid is not on the same page nor does she wish (at this time) to know what it has done to Bob. Discussing what the A has done to Bob may not be helping the M...now. It seems to cause a regression to previous unhealthy feelings. This is true in my case as well.

Later, when she is more secure in her position with the family, she will be able to discuss. I am sure she feels anxiety and estreme guilt in her own way, but is not relaying this to Bob with enough conviction and remorse.

Intimate awareness is the final goal. Intimacy is the hardest thing to recover, if it is ever recovered.

IMHO

k