</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So Bob is trying to stop HIS conflict avoidance in the marriage by honestly relating his negative images and his doubts to Squid.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, at least that's the way I see it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">But Squid is not on the same page nor does she wish (at this time) to know what it has done to Bob. Discussing what the A has done to Bob may not be helping the M...now. It seems to cause a regression to previous unhealthy feelings. This is true in my case as well.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What are unhealthy feelings?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Later, when she is more secure in her position with the family, she will be able to discuss. I am sure she feels anxiety and estreme guilt in her own way, but is not relaying this to Bob with enough conviction and remorse.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Meanwhile, Bob is stuck with his broken heart? Bob stuffed his feelings very very well during his excellent Plan A ... and now, he needs to stuff some more? Is this what you mean?

Thanks for discussing this with me. It's interesting.

Pep

PEPPER-PEPITA---I think that eventually Bob's wife will open up to him (in her own time <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> )but if he pressures her and thinks that its time for her to open up, that will only make her back up some more. I did not open up completely with Stanley until I felt somewhat secure of his love, of him not walking out on me. I know it might sound insensitive to the BS, but Pepperband, its hard sometimes to say everything at once that BS wants to hear. Its very very scary!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

When did all your triggers went away? When did you say to yourself, that your marriage was better than before the Affair? Do your kids know about the Affair?

Take care, Sgt.Pepper!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

MYRTA

Pep,

What are unhealthy feelings?

The unhealthy feelings we had say, the first month after Dday. By relating the negative images and doubts sends Squid (or whoever) back to those weeks of turmoil. i.e. the two steps forward and one back.

Meanwhile, Bob is stuck with his broken heart? Bob stuffed his feelings very very well during his excellent Plan A ... and now, he needs to stuff some more? Is this what you mean?

Maybe not "to stuff some more" but keeping the stuffed ones stuffed. They are the same feelings on this never ending rollercoaster. To pour out his feelings (grief, betrayal, etc.) in too great a rush, sends her back to Dday.

Saying "Some days I REALLY think we will make it" puts her back on that shaky ground.

And yes, unfortunately Bob is stuck with his broken heart..as are we all.

EDITED TO READ: Myrta said but if he pressures her and thinks that its time for her to open up, that will only make her back up some more.

THAT'S WHAT I'M TAWKIN ABOUT!

k

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 04:09 PM: Message edited by: krusht ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EDITED TO READ: Myrta said but if he pressures her and thinks that its time for her to open up, that will only make her back up some more. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not asking SQUID to open up ... but to listen to her husband's feelings. MEN HAVE FEELINGS TOO !!!!

Why are Squid's feeling getting honored and Bob's are pushed aside?? Me no understand??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">THAT'S WHAT I'M TAWKIN ABOUT! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is sooo cute !

Pep

PEPPERY--WHAT exacttly did you edited from my post??? You understood, didn't you? I am sure others did too. I challenge you to try to write a post in spanish for us, or maybe italian!!!
remember my first language is spanish, not english. I think I do pretty well!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyways, I know men BS have feelings too. But just because Squid and others here (me too) had affairs, that does not make us these horrible insensitive people, that only think of themselves!!! I grant you, that while the affair is going on, we become egocentrical people, but after I was out of it, I could see things more clearly. Squid is just plain scared to talk. That does not mean she does not care about Bob. If she did not, why is she staying? She is a young woman still, she could start her life with another man, if she want it too. She is staying because she wants to save her marriage to Bob. She loves Bob and their kids. Thats why!!!
She wants to move on, she wants the affair behind. She wants Bob to not talk and remind her all the time about the affair!!

Myrta

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 05:21 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

1. When did all your triggers went away?

"ALL" ... ummmm I think it was after around 3 years. It's hard to remember. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

2. When did you say to yourself, that your marriage was better than before the Affair?

I think it was very gradual. But probably around two years. I did not want to admit that the marriage was beter for awhile ... did not trust that happiness was ours. The trust is the most damaged Myrta, not the love.

3. Do your kids know about the Affair?

No. They were 9 and 6 when we went through this. They knew Mommie cried all the time and that Daddy was making Mommie sad because he told a lie. This actually came up last year when our oldest (now 18) was in a lot of emotional trouble. I asked his therapist if he thought it was possible that our son needed information regarding the marriage problems from years previous. Therapist said no. Our son has emotional disabilities from pre-adoption issues, and he's a pretty complicated boy with some pre-conditions both environmental and genetic. So, we never brought it up because the therapist said it was irrelevant to his current problems. And, this turned out to be the right decision for our boy.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Take care, Sgt.Pepper!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OK ... don't mind if I do.

Pep

PEPPERBAND--Talking about conflict avoiders, your thread of a while back!! I ask you some questions about your marriage. Its ok if you dont want to answer, but you did not acknowledge the questions!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Abrazos!!!

Myrta

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
[QB] PEPPERY--WHAT exacttly did you edited from my post??? You understood, didn't you? I am sure others did too. I challenge you to try to write a post in spanish for us, or maybe italian!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Myrta... I quoted K not you !!! Re-read her post.

Pep

Hey Krusht ! Thanks for contributing !!!! Good to hear from you. Update please ! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />


re: me, well I do not see my honesty as anything like an LB, or even a wet blanket. Its not my job to make Squid feel good about her affair by sweetenin every message surely ? Its not OK she had an affair, its not certain I can get over it.

A lack of candour helped lead to a Carder 'dial tone' affair and I will not have that in any restored marriage that we may achieve.

During the 'fog' my response to Squids' worst spite was always " I can see you are upset by this and I am sorry that you are, but believe me I will take any action in love that I think will help save our marriage because I love you". or similar.

Those words were true then and also now.

Telling Squid that I am always a hundred percent certain that we will definitely recover our marriage is a plain lie and I do not see how lying will help do anything but sow seeds of complacency and frustration in us both.

PORH is not an easy gig - I have white lied for YEARS to keep Squid happy. I am learning how to present truth gently and deal with its effects now in rebuilding BOB. Also its something that must be at the heart of our new marriage toolbox. I know that. No lies.

I told Squid in a loving way that some days I feel very positive about our recovery. How can that be an LB krusht ?

My Mom & Dad always told me 'everything will be alright' even when it certainly wouldn;t. Such is not kind or helpful I now believe.

Squid knowing that my once destroyed self is now seeing a lot of hope a lot of the time is surely GREAT news for her right ?

I am not sulking around, head down ringing a bell shouting " bring our your dead!" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I am getting on with life, being as loving, funny and "in the moment positively" as I can, but now it is also time to focus BOTH of us on the fact of recovery. We need to protect out future happiness. Give ourselves the best chance of that.

I have given Squid endless love, patience and care for six months now, and I assess that she is now able to assume more responsibility in the recovery process so its not just me.

And in fact this has worked - we had a very mature discussion last night about our recovery, and ended some pretty strong messages with a real hug and kiss, and slept holding hands.

Squid deserves the facts. She knows I have forgiven her the affair as I am able - I needed to in order to unbind my heart from feelings hatred and vengeance - but the hurt , sadness and anger will manifest from time to time. When It does manifest I tell Squid and why. She usually hugs me and helps me get through it.

This is more honest and intimate than we have EVER dealt with issues and emotions in 18 years of marriage. Its far from easy - Squid tells me stuff I don't like too sometimes and I have to NOT smash every toss back over the net.

So, a long reply, but really I don;t see that kindly ment and gently delivered honesty can be bad for our recovery. Squid tells me she loves me, is blessed by me and wants me for ever. How can she have the chance to be what I need if I lie to her ?

Only the dreadful dreadful hurt that attacks me from time to time may destroy our recovery. It is not so often now but is overwhelming.

It summons the cro-magnon man in me and I want to crush bone and yield flesh. I HAVE diverted all this vengeance at OM until very recently, but I have begun to tell Squid honestly when I am angry at HER, or made sad by HER. It is more fair, more truly reflective of the situation and to be honest if Squid can't cope with the fact that she has hurt me maybe for life, and needs to leave me then, so be it. I'll be sad but I WILL NOT build another pretend marriage based on avoidance and denial. Squid has gen absolutely no indcation of wanting to leave, or not being delighted to stay with me.

Right now ? Well Squid is saddened by my sadness and anger , but we discuss it, we work out that symptom and we are soon happier and growing again.

I have been VERY sad these past few days but Squid and I have gotten through it to a positive and quite happy place through loving discussion of the facts, not by covering them up.

It isn't nice to have these discussions, but I don;t see a better way to get Squid grasping the nettle of recovery. THAT is the next big stap that I need.: Squid with a face like stone setting herself to the tasks of recovery like I am. Active participant in rcovery not a passenger in it.

See ?

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

PEPERBAND---OK, OK, I JUMp in my conclussions here. LOL

Thank you for clarifying and for answering my questions. You are great!!!

Abrazos still!!

Myrta

*tap*tap*tap

Read my response Myrta... I answered your post already....

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She wants Bob to not talk and remind her all the time about the affair!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She wants Bob to "not talk" ... and this is an unreasonable expectation. Imagine your heart is troubled Myrta. And the ache is so present it makes it hard for you to breathe. And we say to you ... Myrta, you cannot express this feeling to Stan because it might upset him. Wait until Stan is ready to listen. A few months from now, maybe you can talk about your hurting heart.

"All the time" ... ahem.... who said it needs to be all the time? Not I.

It needs to be talked about ... and if Bob and Squid were in couples therapy ... this would mostly be settled already !

Pep

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

Bob,

Only the dreadful dreadful hurt that attacks me from time to time may destroy our recovery. It is not so often now but is overwhelming.

I guess this is what I thought you were relaying to Squid. That wave of heartsickness that sucks all the sparkle out of us.

I understand that it is now time for Squid to take responsibility for the A and "pay the piper?" "Take her punishment?" Whatever it is that she needs to face. Your agony.

B]It is more fair, more truly reflective of the situation and to be honest if Squid can't cope with the fact that she has hurt me maybe for life, and needs to leave me then, so be it.[/B]

Might she cope better when she feels more safe and comfortable in her position? Is the timing right? Whose to say?

Active participant in rcovery not a passenger in it.

SEE SEE SIGNORE! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

k

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: krusht ]</small>

Bob... sorry for the threadjack (not really)

I loved every word in your last post (really)

Peace to you and yours

Pep

PEPPERBAND- NOw you are the one misunderstanding me. I did not mean for Bob and Squid not to talk about the affair ever!!! I meant, NOT ALL THE TIME!!! I said that, because Bob says in one of his posts that Squid only talks about affair things and her being sorry, just a couple of times a week. He would like it to be everyday, it seems!! I think, being a FWW that is way too much. Even if BS wants to hear things, everyday talk about the PAST affair is way too much. Even JL has said that before, as a matter of fact, I dont know if it was him or you or TMCM that said, that specific days or time should be set aside to talk about it, and then the other times, other subjects should be talk about.

I know he needs to know. I have told Stanley the details, I talk to him. It hurts him, it hurts me, but then its better. But I dont like to talk about the affair and OM everyday. I want both of us to forget that chapter or those chapters already!!

Thank you for all your help. You are very wise and know a lot. And I know you would like people here to learn from what you post, because you had been there and done that.. But remember Pepper, most people like to learn and fall on their own. The same with the kids, you try to tell them what mistakes to avoid, but they like to fall , and sometimes fall again and then learn from their own doings.

MYRTA

<small>[ January 04, 2005, 08:09 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Bob and Pep,


Myrta says:

I said that, because Bob says in one of his posts that Squid only talks about affair things and her being sorry, just a couple of times a week. He would like it to be everyday, it seems!! I think, being a FWW that is way too much

I think that is the main point I was trying to get across. Plus, the timing. Maybe give her more time to get comfortable.

Bob, when did you feel true remorse and recovery started with Squid? 2 or 3 months ago? It has not been that long of a period. Hope you are not rushing things, mate.

What if driving your car, you ran over the baby in the carriage and killed the poor thing. Her parents are heartbroken and the whole family unit crumbles. You of course feel as guilty and remorseful as any of us would....but the parents keep stopping by to cry and show their grief and tell you how they feel about the tragic accident. Day to day, week to week. You so desparately want to move on from the tragedy, not think about it, and try to forget it because you are riddled with guilt and dispair... but you are constantly reminded about it. OH MY!!

PEP, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT ONE? Close?

Bob, stay the course.

k

krusht you said :


Bob, when did you feel true remorse and recovery started with Squid? 2 or 3 months ago? It has not been that long of a period. Hope you are not rushing things, mate

I have no idea if Squid is remorseful or not. She has never said sorry for the affair, only sorry that I was hurt, but that was a while ago.

Thats the core of my problem. It may be hard for her to say these things but she needs to start saying those things.

Without my leveraging, she is basically just back to living a great life - like her pre-a one with added Bob plan A. Yes she'll talk if I pull teeth, but I don't want to do that all the time.

I KNOW she's messed up, I KNOW the A summons all sorts of emitions for her BUT IT IS TIME for her to begin to actively recovery our marriage IMO.

DO you advocate my lying to her for some time until she is 'ready' to contribute more to recovery ? Don't you think it will come as a REAL shock to her if I tell her I am heled, our marriage is CERTAIN to recover, then leave with the kids in 6 months time as I can't handle the denial and unresolved issues ?

Whens a good time to start being honest ?

I don;t understand honestly...

I'm not bullying, or shouting, jut VERY GENTLY Telling the truth.

* edited to reply to your car accident parable - I am not constantly reminder Squid of her affair. Wher did you get that idea ? When I am sad I tell her I am sad and that I need a hug. If she asks why I tell her. You seem to advocate never mentioning it, hiding my sadness,anger - anything but happiness in fact.
And in your parable - if the parents of the kid you killed only showed happiness wouldn;t you suspect something was off ?

<small>[ January 05, 2005, 02:45 AM: Message edited by: Bob Pure ]</small>

Bob,

This is my 3rd attempt at posting to you....for some crazy reason, when I post at night, my login kicks me off!!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

Now to your thoughts..... when an Xws doesn't see the need to apologize to the BS for the horrendous things they have done to the family..... it doesn't speak well of that Xws. In fact, you may need to wonder if she s/b dubbed as a WS wanna be.

IMHO, you need to tell her so. I told my Xws that I have triggers, anxieties and distrust that he needs to help me through. If he can't, to let me know, because if I have to figure that out on top of all the other stuff.....well..... it w/b hard to forgive them..... then say right? Howz your forgiveness coming along Squid? Say something like that.

Put both yourselves on the same subject line so she doesn't feel singled out.

L.

Orchid I dunno if Squid 'doesn't see the need' to apologise, or if its another reason.

Squid has NEVER been able to take blame or attribution. NEVER. Over the years I have ALWAYS been the post-argument ice-breaker, avoiding conflict and letting Squid avoid apologising.

Its not a nice personality trait, but its a real one. Its going to take a lot of work for Squid to learn to take blame.

Squid's never really been 'in trouble' in her life before - not even speeding tickets for example. Can you imagine how she is struggling to process the mortal sin she has delberately committed against God, me, our kids herself and OMs family ?

From being a good girl to the worst girl and no natural ability to process blame and guilt.

She HAS said she's sorry for hurting me, once, but has never said sorry for the affair. She says she has but she hasn't.

I NEED her to overcome her reticence to apologise to come out and say a heartfelt 'I am sorry - truly sorry - that I threw away our marriage by having an affair".

Right now I dunno if her failure to apologise is because of the personality trait I told you of OR if she still is genuinely not sorry she had the affair, only that it hurt me and she was found out.
Thats the FIRST step I need her to complete in recovery.

See ?
She BEHAVES sorry, but the words are very important here, particularly as Squid struggles to accept blame. The affair was HER fault and it was BAD.
I contributed to a 'dial tone' marriage but in no way did that mandate her affair. She MUST know that and tell me she knows that.

She has told me I let her down as a husband prior to the A, yet was shicked when I pointed out that I;d had an awful marriage for a year previous too, and when I reminded her of the half dozen times I opened a talk about it and suggested counselling and she got angry and closed up.

We have work to do, but It would take a weight off me if she could say she was sorry.

If I aksed her to tell me she was sorry she would spit out " I'm sorry, there is that what you wanted ?" and sulk for a day. It needs to come from within and be meant.She has issues my darling does. She doesn;t realise it though because I have accommodated them for so long.

Bob, aren't you glad you know. Can you imagine all over the world there are people whose spouses are, right now, out there cheating on them. I'm sure if OW hadn't called me up to spill the beans, my WH would still be out there living his double life and making my life hell. My husband was making me miserable and if you are honest (as you usually are) your Squid was not making life easy in your marriage.

But since discovery, you really seem to have made the most remarkable and rapid progress. Just maybe it was all a bit too fast and frantic. Your sex life took on a new lease of life and I think that side-tracked you for a while. I don't blame you. I was as horny as hell after Dday - it must be some kind of basic instinct - some sort of territorial thing. Sadly for me, my WH just couldn't perform. He laid there in bed and when I touched him said " why are you being so nice" and lots of other guilt crap. I see a few similarities between him and Squid (sorry to say). He was also unwilling to talk - all affair conversation started with me and was as awkward as hell. He definitely wanted to sweep it under the carpet. When I started on MB and suggested perhaps he take a look in, he scoffed at it and suggested that NOBODY could understand how he feels. He thinks he is unique. What an idiot. He continued contact. I couldn't stop it. Mobile phones are tools of adultery, as are computers.

But Bob, you have something that I don't have. I really don't feel love for my WH at this time and I think you do. You talk about her with such affection despite all she has put you through. I see love in your posts even when you are despondent. I couldn't even begin to type a loving word about my WH such is my deep anguish. Can you imagine how that makes me feel as a mother. Even though he is the one who wronged me, I feel so responsible for breaking up my family. I don't have the faith that WE can restore our marriage and it is so sad. So basically, all I'm saying is, keep trying. TT