PEPPERBAND!! OK! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you love your husband as you say you do, what is wrong with SF every day/night? Why so much resentment?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with ya!

How OLD could you be if you're older than me??? I am 55.

No 2X4 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Pep

Myrta,

What is the "Myrta of today?" I take your statement to mean that you feel you have grown in important ways that Stanley doesn't recognize. Is that the case? And...if so, what are those ways?

Stanley - I know that you are in a difficult position. IT seems to me, though, that Myrta feels that your request for SF every night isn't a show of love..rather, it's a way to control her and - more importantly - a way to show that you havbe WON. I don't know the answer to this problem...but it seems that the two of you are going to have to meet in the middle somewhere.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong> PEPPERBAND!! OK! <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks little sis. Give me some elbow room so I can be tough with your husband..

I will take all the repercussions from this discussion ... and you won't.

Pep

Andrew: I am the antithesis of controlling---------- that is the truth. Just ask anyone who knows me. I have no desire to control my wife.

Pepperband:

Like I said before, this is my problem and I have no easy solutions for it. If I don’t get SF I feel very bad----------- I get depressed. When I have SF I feel great and I even forget the affair. That is how I feel and it is darn hard to control these sensations. I have no residual anger against Myrta for the affair, but I still hurt a lot. It is very hard for me to swallow continuous betrayal for two long years.

This is a very important issue for me. If my wife is not attracted to me, then I WANT OUT!!! I really mean it. To me this is a deal breaker and if we don’t ever have a good sex life then I will be miserable.

Sure , Myrta’s affair was run of the mill------ in fact it was worse than a 3rd rate B movie with secret meetings in dark places, vulgar phone calls, cheapskate OM, betrayal, ect. BTW, just like in the book SAA I financed and enabled the whole affair.

It is not that I want to corner myself into this position. It seems I have a great deal of trouble accepting the affair and I have no way to cope other than SF.

OM knew the EN of admiration quite well, I agree with that.

Stanley, Pepper, Myrta,

May I barg in here for a moment. I have not had much time to post but I have been reading this thread and another one with Buttercup. I keep hearing things that are driving me crazy.

Stanley AND Myrta, I don't think you are hearing what Pepper is telling you. THE MOST important thing is that you both need MC. You really do.

Let me tell you why I think that. It has less to do with the A and a lot to do with life.

Stanley you said you lost something in Myrta's A. You said your marriage will never be the same. Well, you are right for the wrong reasons. Marriage don't stay the same, they NEVER stay the same. Want proof??? Myrta had an A. You are interpretting it personally and frankly you are wrong in my humble opinion.

What happened and is happening even as we speak is that your marriage is/was changing, so is mine, so is Pepper's, so is everyones on this site, and elsewhere. What you and Myrta failed to do was to acknowledge those changes, respond to the changes, accept some changes, and focus on what you really wanted in a marriage. Because of those failures, she had an affair...for HERSELF.

Myrta has no more accepted the changes in the marriage before, during and after her affair than you have. She is sorry, she knows she wants to be married to you, she loves you, BUT, she has NOT accepted the changes. How do I know? Look at her defensiveness, her resistence to change her methods of interaction to you.

You two have a different marriage than you did 2 years, 5 years, 10 years, etc ago. But, you have not changed how you see one another. That is what this site is really about you know. It is not about infidelity, that is really only the symptom of the problem, the problem is the marriage change and neither of you have decide how you would really like to married to one another.

Hence Pepper's and others encouragement to see an MC. IT is not to heal the pain of the A, or the guilt of the A, or anything about the A. IT is to lay out plans for a new, better, more consistent marriage, and the only thing looking at the A will do is offer guideance to the future.

Stanley you are hurt and you should be, but you are missing where the real betrayal was. IT was not the sex with OM, it was that Myrta did NOT tell you she need something else from you. She needed more than you just being her "rock", she needed the "fantasy" of romance. You could have provided it, IF she had asked. She did not.

WHy not? My guess is that she knew that if you changed you might not be the "rock", you might start to become more in touch with your emotions, YOU might expect her to change, open up, give you emotional support.

Stanley, you are younger than I and Rag, and yes, we are older than you Pepper. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Let me tell you what is happening has little to do with the sex.

It is time you two got together and discussed the look, the feel, the needs your marriage must meet. It is not about drawing lines in the sand, it is about deciding how the two of you will enjoy your remaining life together. You are both getting older, you are both entering different phases in your life and you both need support.

Do you know when what passes for MLC occurs for most people? It is when they climb a hill and they don't see a higher one waiting for them. Instead they look down and see a valley ahead, it may be a pretty valley but it is all down hill. I am guessing Stanley, but you have climbed that hill and you are afraid of the valley as is Myrta.

Please listen to what Pepper has said. Please get counseling and please start to consider that the sex while painful to you on one level is NOT what the issues are about. You are both avoiding the issues and focussing on the sex, having sex, avoiding sex, whatever. That is NOT the problem.

Find out how your marriage is and has changed and then change it into something you both enjoy.

Get counseling.

God Bless,

JL

JL--Why am I defensive?? I dont think I am being defensive at all! I am defending myself as a woman that needs to be respected, affair or not!! My husband Stanley feels the need to have sex every night, I understand that, but JL, if I dont want ONe night to have it, he should respect that and not get all sulky like its the end of the world.
I enjoy very much sex with him, but sometimes I just dont want to do it. We are adults and as adults we should respect each other. I feel he is not respecting me and before I would not say it to him, but now I do. Is that so bad? He tells me whats in his mind all the time. Otherwise we would go crazy bottling all up. Dont you think?
I do agree, we do need ASAP marriage counseling. My husband thinks sex everynight is the solution for our problem. I think not! So yes, we are at odds now.
JL< I am sick and tired of my husband saying over and over that he financed my affair. He did not!! It makes mad that he would think that I pay this AH everything!!!
Thank you for your post!!

MYRTA


P.S. He came back from work and told me that he willnot have ever!! sex with me again!!!Mature? dont you think?

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

Warning, warning , warning...

Pep...please diffuse.

Stan & Myrta...please please PLEASE understand that this is the VERY volatile place to air this out.

Sometimes we post things....and we've entered a safe zone...forgetting that it's your spouse that's reading.

Everyone take a deep breathe....and WORK through this.

Nobody is right..Nobody is wrong..it's a hurdle....and you'll work THROUGH it.

Breathe everyone.

Myrta,

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL--Why am I defensive?? I dont think I am being defensive at all! I am defending myself as a woman that needs to be respected, affair or not!!</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Really???


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My husband Stanley feels the need to have sex every night, I understand that, but JL, if I dont want ONe night to have it, he should respect that and not get all sulky like its the end of the world.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So he should act how?? Happy that you turned him down? Resigned that you turned him down? You understand why he needs sex every night?? Please tell me? You don't understand why any more than he does. What you are missing is why this need is occuring and for that you would have to really speak with him, open up to him and really listen to him WITHOUT responding with defensive comments.

You are not ready for that are you?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I enjoy very much sex with him, but sometimes I just dont want to do it. We are adults and as adults we should respect each other.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And telling him NO is respecting him how? He does NOT force you does he? He just gets hurt and moves away right? Seems he is respecting your choice, he does not have to like it though does he? Do you see where your DJ is taking you?

You are expecting him to be happy about being rejected, and when he is not, he is the bad guy. Why he needs sex this often is very likely do, to that seemingly to be the only way you two communicate deep and important feelings. Is it possible that you could do it a different way? Yes. Could he? He is trying but you react with hurt, pain, defense.

You could tell him I am tired tonight but tomorrow morning when I am rested I promise... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . You could start initiating if you do not, but mostly you two really need to sit and discuss the true issues and they are NOT sex. He needs support and a sense you are with him and so far the only way he has figured out how to assure himself is via sex. He needs more and clearly the sex is NOT helping.

I have no doubt you both enjoy it, but I think you are missing the point if you talk about him respecting you by not asking for something he wants. That is not respect, that is self-denial, which for you is easier than saying no.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel he is not respecting me and before I would not say it to him, but now I do. Is that so bad?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not if it is done with care, kindness, and grace. But then you may be wrong about his respect of you, and telling him he does not respect you when he might well, is a big LB. IT is saying "I will tell you what I know you are thinking and how you should think." It does not work this way for either of you. He is wrong when he says he knows how you think.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He tells me whats in his mind all the time. Otherwise we would go crazy bottling all up. Dont you think?</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I agree he shoud tell you what is one HIS mind, and you should tell him what is on YOUR mind, but I have noticed that you two seem to be willing to tell the other what is on their mind. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> That is not good for either of you.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do agree, we do need ASAP marriage counseling. My husband thinks sex everynight is the solution for our problem. I think not! So yes, we are at odds now.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, you are the one that is fighting the sex thing and bringing it up. I posted it was not your problem and what did you post back? It was about sex. So I agree with you, but you are not really listening either. So how do you expect him to listen to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">JL< I am sick and tired of my husband saying over and over that he financed my affair. He did not!! It makes mad that he would think that I pay this AH everything!!!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, family money was used for this right, perhaps not all of it, but some of it. What you are missing here Myrta is something very important to you and your marriage. Your H defined himself by the level of sex and the enjoyment you derived from it, and via the money he provided for the family. It is the traditional male role, and stereotype. If he had been asked about how he succeeded as an H and even father, his financial support would have been very high on the list of his accomplishments. With regard to you, his ability to satisfy you sexually as that seems to be a strong connection point between you, would be huge.

Both of those "strong" points were to some extent discarded by you. So what is he focusing on, the sex you had with OM, and the money you spent to engage in this affair. OM got what was HIS. Do you see this? That is why you hear so much about this.

But, let me ask you a question. What did or does Stanley provide you that made life with him something you desired? What are the things that you feel are key to your happiness with him? He cannot think of anything but that he provided you money and sex. He does not feel he has any other value in your life other than those two things.

Please think about this. This is what I am talking about when I say the marriage changes, hence the needs change. There is no going back to the old marriage even if there were no affair. The affair exposed a huge gap, the elephant in the living room so to speak. So what are you two going to do with this elephant?

Must go.

God Bless,

JL

JL:

I know at some level that there is more to this than SF. However, my perception at this point is my reality (even if the perception is wrong).

Why would I want so much SF at age 54 with the wife I have known since I was 17? Must be brain chemistry. But that is my reality!

My other reality is that Myrta had this very same brain chemistry with the OM.

So when I don't get SF I cannot help to become sad. BTW, if I get SF and I know Myrta is doing me a favor I also get sad. Believe, I can tell when she is going through the motions. The latter is probably worse than not getting the SF.

I guess I just want to feel accepted. Yeah, some folks tell me: “she is staying with you”. For God’s sake why would she risk everything with a life with OM? Myrta may love the SF, but she also knows OM’s character.

It is a no win situation JL. The romance of an affair is very intense because the obsessive component of the relationship is MUCH HIGHER than what you see with normal couples out in the open. The SF within the illicit shady and secret atmosphere of an affair is 100 times more exciting. Is not so much that the OM is so much better than I in bed. The SF is good because it is NEW, secret, and based on a wild fantasy. OLD legal sex with no secrecy cannot compare.

IN a sense---- once a spouse tries this new drug and becomes addicted it is very hard to come back to the dullness of the marriage. The only way this works is when the WW suffers an indignation with the OM or they happen to be sexually incompatible. None of these existed in the relationship. Lets not forget that the relationship had to end in its most dramatic and intense peak.

I am not naïve JL. Myrta does not feel like having SF and in the end that may be the last nail in the coffin. Sometimes several days go by without SF and when we finally do it she is not that receptive. It is not that I am Lbing her constantly, I try to be nice 24/7, however if I get sad that is interpreted as an LB.

BTW, what I mean by enabling that affair is that Myrta lives in such a way that she has the time and the cash to pursue this activity without any restriction.

JUST LEARNING--Wow, so everything that I do according to you is a DJ or a love buster...but everything he does , he can do, because of what I did!! It sounds fair......................NOT!!
How do you know he does not force me? Sometimes he insists and insists, until I have to give in. He likes his way.
He just toldme now, that he admits he wants perfection, that if he is not happy,everntually we will separate and divorce. But of course its allright for him to say it.

Thank you for your help and understanding to both of us JL>

MYRTA

I guess I am lost. Perhaps is this pseudointimacy that we have where we think we are so close, but we are not.

I have decided to wait this out until we are one year past D-day. I really want this to work, but one must be a be a realist and perhaps we will never clear the hurdles.

The children know something is very wrong. They can tell when Myrta and I are not getting along and my oldest daughter has found all the relationship books including surviving an affair. She is pretending not to be concerned, but i can tell this is bothering her. She also also suspects I was the one who had the affair.

So a separation in five months will not be the end of the world. At least we will know we try our best.

The biggest obstacles I see is my inability to accept the affair in toto. JL, I think in the end I have to much foolish pride and expect too much.

As for my wife, her biggest hurdle is how to regain love for the BH (me). This is easier said than done and obviously I don't have the patience to live in a LB free environment. IN addition, anything negative among us is taken as an LB.

LBs are deadly. I had a big dose this morning and they surely turned me off.

Hopefully tomorrow will be another day.

I am done initiating SF------- This will be Myrta's domain, In a sense I am doing what I did before, it is up to her.

Hijack here! Had to address some things:

RAG: You said, "Myrta, Matty, Buttercup, Pepperband, et all, I've a sincere question for you ladies. If you love your husband as you say you do, what is wrong with SF every day/night? Why so much resentment?

I do not think the A should be used as a weapon as Myrta suggests Stanley is doing; but, what is so wrong with some loving each night?"

My answer: NOTHING is wrong with it as long as you BOTH agree it's what you want! Aren't you jumping to huge conclusions by guessing that both people would want SF every day or night? Come on! Even if you're in love and happy with each other, your body clocks aren't finely in tune! Get real! My H and I have gone through periods where we'd have SF at least once a day, and then some periods where we'd only have it once a week. Totally depends on what's gone on during the day-how tired you are, etc... Believe me, when things are going very well outside of the bedroom, then it does make you WANT to do it more, but that isn't always possible. The respect from both partners is key. Sometimes I'd want it when he didn't. I'd respect that. Sometimes he'd want it when I didn't. He'd usually respect that, although I think that men are FAR more childish about it than women are!

Anyway, that's my take on it. My H has been patient, loving and respectful of me throughout this ordeal, and I've tried to be supportive and loving to him too... We've always reached compromises all throughout our marriage, and this is no different.

JL: You made mention of some of my posts being upsetting to you today? Can you direct me to what you're speaking about, because I didn't see you posting anything back to me. I'm very confused. I haven't even been online too much in the past few days, and when I have, I've been pretty positive, so I have NO idea what you meant! PLEASE fill me in when you have the time and the inclination! Thanks!

Myrta & Stanley: It's best to let everything sink in. I've told you, Pep has told you and so has JL that MC is in order. Won't your health insurance cover the cost? Mine does. They cover my IC too. Check into it. You too need some kind of mediator--someone to read between the lines. It's unfair to put these intimate details online. You've come so far, and I'd hate to see misunderstanding get in your way now!

Stanley, I really hope that you see that SF isn't the be-all and end-all of a M. If Myrta doesn't want SF even for a few nights, it doesn't mean that she doesn't want you! Maybe she needs a break. Maybe you could do something in place of SF? I don't know the answer...

Myrta, I really hope that things work out. I know how hard you've been trying. I'll ttyl.

CC

CC:


Very hard to find adequate MC. Most of these folks use the same recipe for everybody and offer very little. Perhaps we may try Dr. Harley.

I have a friend who is a psychiatrist and he generally tells me the only folks who need IC are those who cannot discuss their issues with a friend or a spouse. Otherwise, these folks simply listen and nod their heads. As for depression------- any primary care provider can give you a script for any of the Ads.

But, back to the main theme:

I am retrieving--- I am pressing to hard and Myrta feels pressured. I will give her a lot of space!

Thanks for your support!

First to address Stanley.

You said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It is a no win situation JL. The romance of an affair is very intense because the obsessive component of the relationship is MUCH HIGHER than what you see with normal couples out in the open. The SF within the illicit shady and secret atmosphere of an affair is 100 times more exciting. Is not so much that the OM is so much better than I in bed. The SF is good because it is NEW, secret, and based on a wild fantasy. OLD legal sex with no secrecy cannot compare. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hello, the affair is over. It is NOT 100 times more exciting because it is gone, done, ended. Stanley, it seems you don’t want the affair to be over. It seems you want the affair to be going on, which is in fact a sign of depression. Pain being preferred over reality. You really must think about this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IN a sense---- once a spouse tries this new drug and becomes addicted it is very hard to come back to the dullness of the marriage. The only way this works is when the WW suffers an indignation with the OM or they happen to be sexually incompatible. None of these existed in the relationship. Lets not forget that the relationship had to end in its most dramatic and intense peak.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Let’s not forget the affair ended, there is no relationship. She is off the drug and she is not addicted to it. You are the one addicted to this. You are the one focusing on it. You are the one that needs to reconsider the reality that is present. Perception may be your reality, but it is not Myrta’s and your perception needs to change so that your realities recombine. It is time Stanley, it really is.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I am not naïve JL. Myrta does not feel like having SF and in the end that may be the last nail in the coffin. Sometimes several days go by without SF and when we finally do it she is not that receptive. It is not that I am Lbing her constantly, I try to be nice 24/7, however if I get sad that is interpreted as an LB.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And your point is???? What are you going to do if God Forbid Myrta became very ill and she could not have sex, or you could not have sex? Is that going to end your relationship? If you think that sex defines your life or her life, you two are far worse off than you realize. It is really time that you talked to someone that change your perspective and that of Myrta’s I am going to get to her next. 

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BTW, what I mean by enabling that affair is that Myrta lives in such a way that she has the time and the cash to pursue this activity without any restriction. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WE ALL do, duh! We all live in a way that having an affair is possible, but you don’t get it do you. The affair was not about you, or her desire to mate with OM. It was about her need for fantasy and escape. That is what she says and I happen to believe her.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> The biggest obstacles I see is my inability to accept the affair in toto. JL, I think in the end I have to much foolish pride and expect too much.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think you BOTH have too much foolish pride. And you don’t have to accept it in toto, but you do need to see it for what it was. It clearly was not love, because if she wanted OM or simply to be rid of you, all she has to do is file for divorce. She will get a chunk of change, child support, perhaps spousal support, etc. She is NOT doing that. Her actions save meeting your demands for sex suggest that she does love you and wants to be married to you.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As for my wife, her biggest hurdle is how to regain love for the BH (me). This is easier said than done and obviously I don't have the patience to live in a LB free environment. IN addition, anything negative among us is taken as an LB.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it is a flat footed tie as to who is lobbing the most LB’s at the other. So why don’t both of you stop.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LBs are deadly. I had a big dose this morning and they surely turned me off. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If the turned you off, then you won’t be needing any sex for awhile right? This is sort of getting out of hand. Stanley I am worried about you, and I do think you need to avoid talking to your friends for medical help and see someone that really does do marriage counseling and perhaps address the possibility of depression.

Myrta, you said </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> JUST LEARNING--Wow, so everything that I do according to you is a DJ or a love buster...but everything he does , he can do, because of what I did!! It sounds fair......................NOT!!
How do you know he does not force me? Sometimes he insists and insists, until I have to give in. He likes his way.
He just toldme now, that he admits he wants perfection, that if he is not happy,everntually we will separate and divorce. But of course its allright for him to say it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No one said anything of the sort so don’t try that infantile stuff on me. You just want to avoid hearing what I said. You heard what I said and you did NOT answer or respond to my comments. Please sit down and reconsider what you have said and what I have said.

Buttercup,

It was your thread and it was a few days ago, and it was NOT your comments but Stanley’s I was referring to. The old “marriage will never be the same” stuff. And then some of Myrta’s responses. It was nothing specifically you said, but if I could have responded I recall you said something I would have liked to comment on, but rest assured my reference to your thread was about the ongoing discussion Myrta and Stanley seem to be having.

I must go, perhaps Pepper will come back and sort this out a bit, but Myrta and Stanley quit making excuses and find a good pro-marriage counselor and get to work. Bickering about sex, withdrawal, the “greatness” of the affair, etc, is not getting you anywhere.

God Bless,

JL

Stanley,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I believe my insecurity causes me to want SF regularly. Perhaps if we had other ENs such as conversation or leisure time together things would be better.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nuff said. Sex does not fix the marriage. You have to re-establish a solid relationship first. Start with the basics as if you were dating all over again. Sex will come naturally when you both are making an honest effort to repair the core of the relationship.

Sex is not the core of the relationship...at least I hope it's not. You are using sex to give your confidence in the marriage and yourself a boost. As you have learned, that is only a temporary fix and does more harm than good.

It's not going to kill either one of you to abstain from sex for a while as you each give 100% effort to restore your relationship outside of the bedroom. Once that part of the relationship (especially trust) is restored, you should both be more receptive and giving to extending it to the bedroom.

Wow, dangerous to dip a toe into such troubled waters when lifers are already all over this but I feel a burden to offer a view.

When Squid first 'came back' to me emotionally she wanted SF all the time. I was gratified, of course, but it felt stange. Over the past three months since then Squid and I have bcome more intimate than at any time in years. I mean PROPERLY intimate. Sharing HORRIBLE themes and hurts, being very vulnerable to each other yet dealing with these issues with care and sensitivity. Even our non-R discussion are at a level of honestly an dintimacy that I never hardly experienced before. We still have far to go, but this gives us both HUGE hope !

And guess what ? we have sex less often now. Isntead of almost every day, its 3/4 times per week and when we BOTH want to. Its proper lovemaking again.

Maybe a lot of sex is noise to cover up a lack of intimacy here as it was with us ?

Also Stanley Squid told me that her affair was about companionship, not sex. That hurt me harder than if it had been for sex alone but we are working on that.

I just wanted to share our example in case it was helpful. I hate to see you two fighting. I've never seen 2 people love each other more and fight more <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

No thank you ... I refuse to referee a fight with no one following the rules.

TaTa

Pep

PEPPERBAND- WOW Pepperband, I am still waiting for the post that you were going to write Stanley yesterday. And now you are saying that you are off?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

OK!! Thanks

MYRTA

myrta---pep also asked you yo step out and stay away.....you didnt respect that.

you win, your right, its all his fault and he is wrong for everything...is your marriage better now???

do you want to be right or married?????