Since most on this board are BSes, just as myself, I would like to pose a question to all. This question is an essential element in my downfall and has been presented to me by my WW many times in our arguments over her affair. My situation was not due to me being malicious or intentionally hurtful to my wife, but simply neglecting in so many of the necessary components of a successful marriage; we were the best of roommates and buddies, but I failed in the department of husband for 8 years. So the question is: Do any of you feel that you would have changed without this life crushing blow? Without an event that shakes your very values, do you think that you would have honored your vows of "love, honor and cherish" your spouse in the manner you should?

This in no way is a question of the WS's morality, as we all believe similarly, this is merely a question concerning self; what else would have awakened you to life; to your moral obligations to your spouse?

I don't think, personally, that I would have changed my perspective on life if my wife did not do something drastic. Her desires were presented to me on many an occasion and I simply disregarded them as idealistic or fantasy, not understanding how important they were to my very happiness. I took for granted her presence, since that was my idealistic flaw, that in marriage people stick together and that divorce and affairs happen to others.

Any thoughts?

nvtro

I don't know if I would have changed or not....I don't know what it would have taken to make me realize that I needed to change. I KNEW there were things I was doing or not doing that were making my husband less than happy, I think what I did was underestimate the importance of these things....I mistake I will valiantly try to never make again.

It makes me sad to know that at this time last year my husband was in love with me and buying me flowers and cards and I took it all for granted.

-Caren

nvtro,

I could have written that myself. I too was told numerous times over the years of my 10 year marriage by my WW what she wanted/needed from me as a husband. I would listen and do for a month or two only to revert back to my old ways of taking her and our marriage for granted. Neither one of us had been truly happy for a long time and she sought out the comfort of another. It has brought me to my knees and I have "finally seen the light" and will do whatever it takes to make this work, however now my WW doesn't believe me and that is holding her back from giving me another chance, or so she says.

If she really looked she would see that I have put in more effort since D-Day than I have in the last 10 yrs combined. I've been reading books, going to counselling trying to change my ways. Trying to be the husband I should have been. She will either benefit from those changes I am making or someone else will down the line. I just hope she comes to her senses soon so we can keep our family together.

No. I've said this to my wife many times. Had she not become involved with someone else I would have continued in the same way. Sadly, people do not change until they are somehow compelled to.

However, that is not to say; if you've tried talking, pleading with your husband to fulfill your needs and he refuses, that it's time to have an affair. For example, had my wife gotten separated from me, that probably would have been enough to compell me to change. There is so much permanent damage caused by affairs that even if the marriage does improve, in my view the trust is never completely restored.

I pay attention to my wife now. I mean I really pay attention. And she knows it. I told her, "That blind, trusting guy that you used to be married to does not exist anymore"

MIF,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I just hope she comes to her senses soon so we can keep our family together.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">By the way, I am very glad to hear you say that and I am praying that she will.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MIF?:
<strong> nvtro,

I could have written that myself. I too was told numerous times over the years of my 10 year marriage by my WW what she wanted/needed from me as a husband. I would listen and do for a month or two only to revert back to my old ways of taking her and our marriage for granted. Neither one of us had been truly happy for a long time and she sought out the comfort of another. It has brought me to my knees and I have "finally seen the light" and will do whatever it takes to make this work, however now my WW doesn't believe me and that is holding her back from giving me another chance, or so she says.

If she really looked she would see that I have put in more effort since D-Day than I have in the last 10 yrs combined. I've been reading books, going to counselling trying to change my ways. Trying to be the husband I should have been. She will either benefit from those changes I am making or someone else will down the line. I just hope she comes to her senses soon so we can keep our family together. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I, personally, am not sure how much of my pain is due to the idea that my WS betrayed our vows, the idea that I am not being allowed to demonstrate my commitment and how I am different, or the regret inside from realizing that I never truly understood the value of being a husband and was the cause of my own downfall.

Just a little more here. I did not know how to meet her needs, in fact, I thought it was impossible. She seemed to me to want more attention than I was able to give. I felt that her demands on my time were unreasonable.

I think we've both changed in that regard. Now it seems like I'm the one saying that we don't spend enough time together. Wierd.

Hi nvtro,

This question has come up a lot here.

In my case,I was lead to believe that all was ok with my WH(not perfect of course) and when he was telling me in the early stages that he was an "unhappily married husband" I was absolutely blown AWAY.Absolutely.This new found unhappiness was after he had met the homewrecker who was a single, 29 year old woman living with her parents and NO responsibilities except getting to work.

I have read that the discovery of an A is worse for those who believe that their marriages we "good" or ok.That was me.I had no idea whatsoever that my WH was unhappy and he admits and doesn't understand why he never sat me down to talk to me about how he was feeling.That over the years,he slowly shrunk away from allowing me into his personal and initimate world,some of which was not something I would be a part of anyway(porno interest).

Of course,some people will say it was an "eye opener",a "blessing"(puke),a wake up call,whatever when they realize their spouses adultery but in my mind,I can think of MANY more appropriate and less destructful ways of getting a point across.Adultery is NEVER the answer to anything so the excuse that this was some how beneficial as a means to address marital issues REALLY upsets me,still.I don't fall into that way of thinking,it's also destructive IMO.

People do take things and other's for granted everyday and it's a sad commentary but I think most of us will agree that we would want to be D'd first before going through adultery if the problems in the marriage are such that cannot be resolved.In my case again,not only did I have to endure Infidelity,but now Divorce and also the long lasting effect of never being able to make the necessary changes for my STBXH that he wanted so we could save our children from being another statistic of Divorce,surely the worst outcome here.For that I will be taking a very LONG time to try and get past my anger at my WH for doing this to us for some homewrecker.

According to the results,I did very well on the EN questionnaire for my WH so whatever was going on with my WH for HIM to make the CHOICE to cheat is still an unanswered question he is not willing to deal with and may never.Unless my WH lied,I didn't have much to change about myself.And I know I was a good wife.I wasn't perfect of course but I did not deserve what he put me through.

O

edited for typos

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 06:01 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>

NVTRO,

What you are saying is right out of my handbook on how to be a H.

I belive I took everything for granted, and no if it were not for something as big as my WW's A, I would still be the same person today.

I think the wake up call could have and should have been done in a differant way, yet it did wake me up.

The only problem is it woke up my kids and everyone else in our life. Hard place to be right now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by nvtro:
<strong>I, personally, am not sure how much of my pain is due to the idea that my WS betrayed our vows, the idea that I am not being allowed to demonstrate my commitment and how I am different, or the regret inside from realizing that I never truly understood the value of being a husband and was the cause of my own downfall. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with that too. I am angry with myself for letting it get to this point. I am angry with my WW for betraying our vows, I am angry she doesn't see I am serious this time. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />


</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by legato:<strong>
MIF,
By the way, I am very glad to hear you say that and I am praying that she will. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: MIF? ]</small>

One other thought too.We have had discussions many times about lack of fulfilling EN's being a "cause" of an A but don't get too wrapped up in the idea that you failed your WW.It is and always will be 100% the fault of the WS to make the CHOICE to cheat.No matter what the marriage was like before,IMO,you get Divorced first before cheating.It is NEVER the answer to anything.

P.S I do not want to hear how we all contribute to the state of the marriage before an A.If we all agree that the WS is 100% to "blame" for the adultery and making that choice ,then that's it.There are no If's, And's or But's.Sometimes people cheat just because they can or because they feel entitled,no matter how many EN's are being filled.

I agree with Octobergirl. So many, many WS justify their cheating by essentially saying, "He/She drove me to it." This is also the common wisdom when it comes to cheating -- people just assume that the H or W didn't measure up and so "drove" their WS to look elsewhere.

If talking and pleading with you didn't help, I'll bet coming home to find that your wife had moved out to her own apartment and filed for legal sep and/or divorce would have been a pretty good wake-up call. Do you really think that her cheating on you was the only thing that would have "worked?"

Cheating is not necessary or justified under any circumstances. As Mr. Spock said, "There are always alternatives."
Mulan

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> Hi nvtro,

This question has come up a lot here.

O </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">October, I agree with the idea of your response, you are talking to the choir in regards to the idea of infidelity and marriage. I think what I am getting at is the concept of self-evaluation and the obvious lack thereof that some of us have displayed. We all know and can share stories about the WS's "fog talk", but I think that there is also a "fog" mindset in many BSes. It prevents us from seeing what our marriage "could be/should be". It blocked out the pleas from the WS for years and then we display righteous indignation after discovering that our spouses are just as human as the cheating neighbor down the street. If we failed in our obligations, why the shock that our spouses can also? Is it the fact that it IS so life changing that makes it so painful and thus we elevate its status over the neglect that some of our spouses have endured?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sometimes people cheat just because they can or because they feel entitled,no matter how many EN's are being filled.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Undoubtedly true. However, I would guess that 9 times out of 10 where there is an affair, there are unmet needs.

Our grandparents (or great grandparents depending on when you were born) used to accept unfulfilled needs; just suck it up and make the best of it. But now we have radio, TV, the Internet sowing discontent, telling us that it is our God-given right to be ecstatically happy, 24/7. And if you're not happy, the one to blame is sitting on that couch over there watching the game.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Do any of you feel that you would have changed without this life crushing blow? Without an event that shakes your very values, do you think that you would have honored your vows of "love, honor and cherish" your spouse in the manner you should </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Absolutely not. I've said this previously in other posts. I know I was letting my marriage die a slow painful death. It took skills, I didn't have to be a GOOD wife. My H...who used to be a good H...had no motivation to be so anymore.

I don't think this applies in ALL cases...but I know it did in mine...and I'm greatful I'm now equipped with the skills to be a GOOD wife to him...because I DO love him..and I DO want to spend my life with him.

Okay, I am of the female persuasion and a BS. There is no question that I failed to be a good wife. I had no clue that I wasn't. He would say something once, and if I didn't do something to change it right then, he never mentioned it again. So I assumed it really didn't matter. I needed to be told over and over. But it didn't happen. Suddenly I discovered the A. Was it a catalyst for change? You bet. I have spent the last 6 months reading and changing to beat the band. But it was the wrong way to do it. So wrong. Sitting down and talking honestly would have done the same thing, and avoided all this pain.

If I could go back and do it again, wow the first thing I would do is learn to listen. That is my big down fall.

Things were brought up once then dropped, I thought all was ok...

I was wrong.

I probably would not have changed...

But I'm with Octobergirl on lack of knowledge here. I dind't hear it 10,000 times and still never changed it. I always heard, 'No, of course I don't mind if you do that.'

I do feel I should've been more aware and been more proactive. I knew things weren't great...but I honestly did not know how bad they were...even after the affair I did not know.

When you are married to a conflict avoider, it's not easy to know what's right/what's wrong. I just happened to suck at guessing, I suppose.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Octobergirl:
<strong> One other thought too.We have had discussions many times about lack of fulfilling EN's being a "cause" of an A but don't get too wrapped up in the idea that you failed your WW.It is and always will be 100% the fault of the WS to make the CHOICE to cheat.No matter what the marriage was like before,IMO,you get Divorced first before cheating.It is NEVER the answer to anything.

P.S I do not want to hear how we all contribute to the state of the marriage before an A.If we all agree that the WS is 100% to "blame" for the adultery and making that choice ,then that's it.There are no If's, And's or But's.Sometimes people cheat just because they can or because they feel entitled,no matter how many EN's are being filled. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with you 100% in regards to "choice", all human actions are a "choice". I believe that reality IS, but each man filters reality through HIS mind, which is why two people can see the same event and perceive two different events. So, in regards to MY situation, I feel that I may have been able to avert my present horrors if I would have made better "choices" in regards to my marriage. I can't control other people, but I can influence them to move in one direction or the other, just as they can do the same to me.

So my wife made her choice, which I believe will hurt her and our family in the long run, and I made my choices which I believe HAVE hurt me and my family. But prior to the affair, you could have asked me if I was doing anything wrong in my marriage and I would claim that I was being a "good" husband, just as my WS claims that she is doing nothing wrong with her present actions.

"A stupid man doesn't learn from his mistakes, a smart man learns from his mistakes and a wise man learns from the mistakes of others." If only I had been wise.

nvtro,

I understand your quest to analyze what your role in this mess is.However,I take umbrage that some of us here are not taking inventory of our own lives.if anything,we are examples of doing just that,in a very intimate and painful way.We are baring our souls here,to other's,who we do not know other than as log in names.We are trying desperately to repair our marriages and become even more educated about a sinful and extremely destructive choice made by someone who was supposed to love and protect us,through vows and God.

A very common misconception in this society is that a marriage is supposed to be this or that or even "perfect".It doesn't take any work and will just drive itself,etc.So,when we figure out that our spouses are not perfect,have flaws,have issues,don't know how quite to be everything we fantasize about(with much media influence IMO) we start saying to ourselves,"I am missing out", "My BS isn't X",or "My BS isn't Y".We look to other's to start filling voids and to be people that they just cannot be.We think that the answer lies elswhere and this leads into the Grass is Greener attitude.How do we know this is a false measure of standing? Because second marriages have a 75-80 failure rate.Marriages born from adultery have an abysmal success rate(less than 3%).There are reasons to believe that adultery is as horrible and sordid as it truly is.

Part of our problem is that we expect more out of marriage than is there.It is not an endless well of support and supply.We are talking about two humans coming together in love and for family and it takes two humans to nurture it and make it what they BOTH want.

Perception is ones own but when we are talking about adultery,the reality to that is it is WRONG and there is no other reality even if the WW perceives this abominable choice as appropriate at the time.They are misguided and selfish in that choice.If it weren't the case,we would not have so many people in pain and so many families/marriages destroyed by his act,etc.

YOU are still partly blaming yourself for your WW's CHOICE to committ adultery IMO.We can debate this all day but you are not responsible for the actions of another and even influence is not a reason.I try to influence my patients to live better but that doesn't always stop them from going out for that next cigarette.THEIR choice.

O

<small>[ January 07, 2005, 06:40 PM: Message edited by: Octobergirl ]</small>