Garmus,

No thanks to lubricants! I'm allergic to everything under the sun. Here's my take on it: I'll have sex when I feel like I am in the mood or I could be in the mood.

As for my own sex drives, throughout my ages, it's changed. I've wanted it daily, sometimes more than once a day, to not wanting it for weeks. So, when I refered to those people being "hyper-sexual", I meant it as a negative slant. It's usually MUCH more going on than them just wanting sexual fulfillment. Most of the women (or men) that are looking for constant sex from their mates (or those who seem to be unhappy with the frequency or infrequency) seem to be unhappy about the whole relationship and they're grasping at straws, using sex as the weapon of choice.

Sex, to me, and to my H, is about commitment (I know, funny, being that I'm a FWW), and respecting each other's feelings. It's about being in fine tune with each other's needs and wants. It's sometimes about fulfilling each other sexually when the other one is not totally into it, but that (IMO) should NOT be frequent, because (IMO) it could only bring about some stress. I'd rather have sex when I'm in that romantic, loving place in my head. When I've felt loved throughout the day. When I know that he wants me or I want him because we're in love; not to fulfill any urge.

Please keep in mind that I have NO problem with sex. As I've said, I can orgasm on the spot, 99.9% of the time. There's no pressure for him or for me. Maybe that means it's not such a big deal for me, and I'd rather have that intimacy with him when I'm FEELING it, and that doesn't have to be daily. Luckily, we're in sync now, so we're not constantly bickering about SF.

CC

I give up. I just asked a question and people got all bent out of shape.

Wow, emotions really run high in discussing this subject don't they? SF is just one of many possible EN's after all, both partners should work to meet the others needs, hopefully with mutual love and respect. Well, in a healthy relationship anyway, but lots of us here are dealing with not-so-healthy marriages.

By the way, I'm a woman, I'm not offended by the subject and I think once-a-day is just great, everything else being equal. In the real world,though, everything isn't equal. We are all very much affected in the bedroom by what goes on in our relationships outside of the bedroom. It just seems like this is an area in which our deepest insecurities surface, so we have a much stronger emotional reaction to the subject than to say meeting the needs for financial security.

By the way, Rag seemed to offend with his comment on the "unclean days", but perhaps this is a religious view?

DoHa,

I agreed with your post. SF is only ONE way to have a good, close marriage. The important part is that you're in harmony--over SF, over EN, over mostly everything within your M. If you both agree that you want SF daily, great! That's up to both of you. That's something private that's decided between you both, and it's something that usually changes in time too.

Being AGREEABLE is the most important thing. Being on the same page. Being in harmony.

CC

This is a funny thread in some ways. Having such heated discussion about sexual frequency!! Men and women alike can have sex every day if they "both" feel like. I love having sex, and I like lots of frequency, but I dont like to feel that i HAVE TO do it, just because my husband thinks thats the solution to everything. I dont think there is anything wrong having sex with your husband once in a while even if you dont want to, just to please him and make him happy. But that should not be the norm of having sex!
Sex should be something relax not force! If your spouse thinks that he can have sex whenever he feels like it,whether you want to or not, there is a big problem in the marriage.

After having an affair, sexual issues become very complicated and tense. I, as a FWW feel inadecuate still, feel unworthy still of his wants and desires for me. I am not totally relax yet to have the frecuency that he desires. I know I might seem unfair to some here by stating this, but thats how I feel. I am not angry all the time or fighting with my husband. Most of the time we are ok, after SF we are great!! He just gets kind of angry,frustrated with me if I refuse him sometimes. I dont think he should be this way anymore. I am with him, I am here to stay, I want to stay married to him, he knows this. He does not need constant reassurance of my love and desire for him.He knows I love him with all my heart!
SF should be enjoy equally by both partners,not only one, whether you do it 3 times a day or 3 times a month. Sex and Love go hand in hand, unless in you are in a "sordid" affair. So if the marriage is based in love, even after the affair, the sex should not be used as a weapon!
It should be used as a beautiful tool to strengten the marriage, not to weaken the relationship! And sometimes when used improperly thats exactly what can do.

Well, this is my oppinion, for all is worth. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

Myrta

Myrta,

Your opinion is worth a lot! Well put! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

CC

I'm offended because it seems like the prevailing theme is that the onus is on the lower sex drive spouse to fulfill SF. How about equal onus being put in the higher sexed spouse to back off once in awhile and be understanding of the other spouse's desire?

I feel that it's totally bogus to say "If you love your spouse, why aren't you making love to him/her everyday?" It's being compartmentalized and I just don't feel, at least in my case, that it *can* be comparmentalized.

And yes, this can be applied to any EN which is why I "countered" RAG's statement in my original post.

I think it is important to try an fill all of your spouse's needs even at times when you are not particularly in the mood. But if you're doing that too often, it will lead to resentment.

I just feel that it is unrealistic to expect your spouse to fulfill your needs alllll of the time. We should strive to, yes, but we do not live in bubbles and the "world" does factor in.

And using gender only for convenience here, Husbands, why aren't you buying your wife flowers every day if that's what pleases her and you love her? Why are you not sitting for an hour with her every day, enthusiastically talking with her in conversation that is meaningful to her? Why are you not enthusiastically snuggling with her for 30 minutes every day? And let's face it, you can do all of this stuff without hormonal considerations....The kind of day *you* had should not affect you being able to to these things.

RAG, I was not "bent out of shape" by the original statement..I welcomed a discussion on it. But it took a turn that was offensive to ME by suggesting that regardless of what my mind and body is doing, I should be having enthusiastic sex with my husband.

As many of you said, this kind of thing does need to be negotiated. But at the same time, it's being implied that the person who is less inclined to fulfill a need, should do it anyway, regardless of their reasons for not wanting to. This is how *I* have read many of the responses in here.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it's being implied that the person who is less inclined to fulfill a need, should do it anyway, regardless of their reasons for not wanting to </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Funny, I've kept completely out of the SF discussion because that is just not a problem in any way in our marriage.

Now, one of my H's EN's is domestic support. He has always done his complete share (we were always 50/50 on this) of ALL the work around the house.

During the aftermath of the A I just let everything go, the cleaning, the cooking, the garden. I just couldn't do it, depression all sorts of reasons.

I should have met this need even though I didn't feel like it. It caused a great deal of resentment from him and rightly so. So really I should have met that need whether I felt like it or not. Now that we are on an even keel again and I'm not suffering from debilitating depression I've got that need sorted but it caused a great deal of resentment and bitterness at the time.


Jen

Kiwi...I'm okay with doing things when I don't feel like it...I'm definitely okay with that.

But just using SF as an example...if I don't want SF for say...two weeks....should I be fulfilling that need for my husband every day? I would really resent that and would resent it if he didn't respect my wish not to.

But I would be more than willing to negotiate SF for some of that two weeks...just not every day! I would negotiate to fulfill that need for the following reasons:

1) In the case of SF...use it or lose it, baby!
2) Sometimes I may not intitially want it, but can be persuaded to truly DESIRE it...
3) I love my husband

But if my husband did not want to negotiate during that two weeks and just felt that since I loved him, I should be fufilling it enthusiastically...that would give me a LOT of resentment. What has come across to *me* in this thread is that I should be doing it anyway. Welp again, I'll negotiate it for some of that time, but I need my desires respected just as my spouses needs his desires respected.

**edit to add something**

I went for about a year of hardly ever wanting SF. For a lot of reasons, mostly depression. I wish with my WHOLE heart that my husband wasn't so "patient" with me. I wish he had either told me how frustrated he was in a way that I understood, or that he had taken me up on my offers of fulfilling his need even when I wasn't in the mood. He felt wrong doing that..but I wish he had. Because it's true...use it or lose it. However had it gone to the opposite spectrum where I was having sex with him every day during a time when I really didn't want to, my own resentment would've been very great indeed. There are extremes here and there is a place to meet in the middle. What's come across to me in this post has been that there's not really a middle ground. This was *my* interpretation of many responses and I acknowledge that perhaps I'm not reading them as they were intended.

<small>[ January 08, 2005, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: maddyk ]</small>

Maddy,

YOu put it best here: "I'm offended because it seems like the prevailing theme is that the onus is on the lower sex drive spouse to fulfill SF. How about equal onus being put in the higher sexed spouse to back off once in awhile and be understanding of the other spouse's desire?" I tried to put it into words, and you did it for me. I guess this topic is too emotionally charged for me, as it was a sore point months ago. We came up with solutions, partially due to our MC and partially due to the two of us talking and agreeing on things. We both bent a little. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

CC

There is something called adaptation and during our marriage before the affair we rarely had a problem with a mismatch of desires. However, early on Myrta alwats wanted 2-3 days in a row after good SF session and sadly I did not follow thru as often as I should. However, afterwards we got coordinated.

Coordination of high and low drives is possible if the discrepancy is small and if there is little selfishness.

BTW, when Myrta went into heavy withdrawal and depression she lost her libido but still managed to give me SF (not daily, but every 2-3 days) as I was in very bad emotional shape.

Garmus, I dunno if you're still reading this but I just reread some of this to try and clarify my thoughts and saw that I did not address this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Or why the possibility of wanting sex daily should be addressed by gynecologists and psychiatrists?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did not mean that someone needs to address a doc because of a high sexual need. What I meant was that those who are not understanding what can affect one's libido, should find out what affects it.

RAG keeps saying, if you love your husband, why do you not WANT to enthusiastically engage in SF every single time he wants it?

So he's asking WHY and not really seeing or understanding the answers, whether it's because he does not want to or they were not clearly written. It seems that he's only seeing unmet needs or medical reasons as good reasons for not wanting SF. But for me and many others...not wanting SF doesn't necessarily have anything to do with unmet needs or medical reasons...sometimes it's just LIFE that affects it, sometimes it's all of the above. I love my husband to pieces...but even if he never committed adultery, always met my needs...there are just going to be times when I don't want SF...be it hormonal or just a lot going on in my life. If I have an extended period of time where I do not want SF...as much as I love my husband and want to please him because of that--I would resent it if he could not understand me not giving him SF every single day. it would need to be negotiated. To me it has come across that RAG doesn't feel that it needs to be negotiated if you love your husband--unless there are menstrual or medical reasons.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by maddyk:
<strong> I'm offended because it seems like the prevailing theme is that the onus is on the lower sex drive spouse to fulfill SF. How about equal onus being put in the higher sexed spouse to back off once in awhile and be understanding of the other spouse's desire?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I perceive is that when there is a sexual frequency discrepancy we want to default to the lower drive spouse. Do we do that in any other aspect of marital life? The least active person gets to determine the level of activity? The least talkative person determines the level of conversation? The least generous person determines the level of giving? It is the sense of justification that prickles my neck hairs on this topic. If one spouse declared that he/she only felt like talking once every couple of weeks, would there be people who defended it? Justified it?

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I feel that it's totally bogus to say "If you love your spouse, why aren't you making love to him/her everyday?" It's being compartmentalized and I just don't feel, at least in my case, that it *can* be comparmentalized.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think that is what is really being said. The question was why, if you love your spouse, do you refuse to make love to them at a level compatible to their desire? I actually think the folks who don't want to commit to making love to their spouse on a regular basis are the ones compartmentalizing sex. Which of the following would we want to treat in the same fashion?

"I want to be respectful to my spouse."

"I want to be kind to my spouse."

"I want to support my spouse."

"I want to talk to my spouse."

"I want to cuddle my spouse."

"I want to nourish my spouse."

Which of these would we find acceptable to drop for days/weeks or sometimes months at a time? Yet, I have seen spouses who think it perfectly acceptable to separate sex out of the mix and treat it as a totally different marital goal. That to me, is true compartmentalization.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And yes, this can be applied to any EN which is why I "countered" RAG's statement in my original post.

I think it is important to try an fill all of your spouse's needs even at times when you are not particularly in the mood. But if you're doing that too often, it will lead to resentment.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this is coming from a wrong foundation. And if your spouse wants to make love to you (rhetorical you, not you specifically) 4 times a week and you only get in the mood 4 times a month, how long before his/her resentment grows? With deep wells of rejection as an added spice. That's why I think coming from a place of "when I'm in the mood" or "duty sex" is going to lead to marital discord/death if not addressed.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
I just feel that it is unrealistic to expect your spouse to fulfill your needs alllll of the time. We should strive to, yes, but we do not live in bubbles and the "world" does factor in.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think if we step away from the hyperbole, and consider the reality that there are marriages in which months have gone by without sex, then we probably aren't dealing with a mere 'can't fulfill our spouses needs all of the time' scenario.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
And using gender only for convenience here, Husbands, why aren't you buying your wife flowers every day if that's what pleases her and you love her? Why are you not sitting for an hour with her every day, enthusiastically talking with her in conversation that is meaningful to her? Why are you not enthusiastically snuggling with her for 30 minutes every day? And let's face it, you can do all of this stuff without hormonal considerations....The kind of day *you* had should not affect you being able to to these things.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Minus the daily flower buying, conversation & cuddling should be a part of your marital life on a daily basis, short of the occasional emergency.

I think a vicious cycle often sets up in marriages. A history of meeting each other's needs most of the time is not going to be suddenly derailed if an occasional conversation, cuddle or love session is missed. However, a history that includes a regular refusal by the lower drive spouse to lovingly meet the need of the higher drive spouse is going to set up a desert scenario. The higher drive spouse will begin to withdraw and there will be even less conversations & cuddles. And higher drive spouses who can't "water" their relationship throughout the day will often find their sexual relationship drying up.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
RAG, I was not "bent out of shape" by the original statement..I welcomed a discussion on it. But it took a turn that was offensive to ME by suggesting that regardless of what my mind and body is doing, I should be having enthusiastic sex with my husband.

As many of you said, this kind of thing does need to be negotiated. But at the same time, it's being implied that the person who is less inclined to fulfill a need, should do it anyway, regardless of their reasons for not wanting to. This is how *I* have read many of the responses in here. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Again, if you're talking about gently turning down your spouse occasionally with the idea that you will make time for it the next day, then we aren't talking about the same thing. However, if your spouse is being rejected on a regular basis, if you find yourself avoiding your spouse's physical touch and/or presence because you don't want it to turn into something more - that's the sort of problem I'm talking about.

That's the kind that destroys marriages.

OK, one more try.

I did NOT say a spouse has to perform SF all the time whether they want to or not. I was asking WHY you don't want to.

When I read Garmus's last post about compartmentalizing sex, about only meeting each others need part of the time, and about the resentment which grows, I can see clearly that this is where I went wrong, with my DD's dad. And where he went wrong.

I didn't know it was his top E/N, didn't know how much it meant to him, that that was where he got his strength and felt most connected to me. We did not have the tools, or even the words to work through it.

I began avoiding his affections because they always made me feel pressured, that even a little kiss would turn into a request for sex.

I did not understand the emotional connection that sex brings to couples. I just didn't understand. I loved having sex with him but only on my own terms, when I wanted it.

I didn't know that if I had been open to it being a daily thing it would have become something that would bring us closer and I would have gotten used to it and began to look forward to it also. If I had known that this was how best I could have loved him, in his language...

Just didn't know about E/N's and didn't understand men whose top (or one of the top) E/N is SF. That is one of the reasons that following the MB principles of meeting each other top E/N's as much as you possibly can is the single most important thing you can do to have a good marriage. The POJA and radical honesty policy are right up there too.

It's not something we learn in school, it's not something our parents teach us. That is why I think this is an important topic, it helps people to look at what might be going on right now in their own marriage.

It isn't easy for those of us who never made it to recovery to read though because we lost he chance to fix it, but it will help in our next relationship.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by RAG:
<strong> OK, one more try.

I did NOT say a spouse has to perform SF all the time whether they want to or not. I was asking WHY you don't want to. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are any number of reasons why one spouse is not willing to make love to the other. I don't think a list of "honey, not tonight" reasons is what you're actually looking for.

Warning readers, generalizations coming, please ask for clarification before taking offense.

Men with low libidos who won't work with their wife on frequency issues have their own set of issues. I believe the underlying concept among women though, hinges on the concept that they must be mentally & physically aroused before making love and that if they are not, it can't be helped, that's the way it is, and to have sex without that ephemeral feeling is some sort of offense against their nature, period.

So, they want to be able to follow what they perceive as their very nature, while discounting and/or ignoring their spouses' nature. Given a large enough disparity in sexual desire, the above premise is going to set the stage for marital damage and destruction. The lower drive spouse often develops the attitude that the higher drive spouse is demanding, selfish, fleshly. They will begin to avoid cuddling, kissing, and other forms of physical touch because they don't want to awaken the "animal".

There are alternatives to waiting for your libido to burst into flames. Anything that is important in a relationship and to your spouse, is important enough to spend some time and effort toward understanding. If you start from the position that making love to your spouse is important and attempt to arrange your day and your energy to make time for it, if you make the effort to think good thoughts about your spouse during the day, if you mentally gear yourself toward meeting your spouse's need in this area RATHER than gearing yourself to discount it, ignore it and/or avoid it - you will often find that your libido will respond in kind. Your life and attitude will produce fruit based on what you are feeding it. Feed it negative thoughts and feelings toward sexually meeting your spouse and that's what you'll get a bumper crop of. Feed it tender thoughts and loving feelings toward your spouse, and reap a different result.

So, that's what I perceive as the underlying concept that leaves women feeling quite justified in repeatedly turning away their spouse.

As I said before, this is not limited to women. There are men who are choosing to not meet their wife's sexual needs, I just don't think that society has handed them the same justification.

OK, one more try.OK

I did NOT say a spouse has to perform SF all the time whether they want to or not. I was asking WHY you don't want to.


that's not even your original question...your official original question was....

drummmm rollllllllllllllllllllllllll.........

I've a sincere question for you ladies. If you love your husband as you say you do, what is wrong with SF every day/night? Why so much resentment?

those two questions are NOT the same....
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

the thing I love about being married...is that every day I wake up and the potential to perhaps "get cracking" as I believe I have heard it referred to somewhere in these here parts ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> exists...

and that is a wonderful wonderful thing about marriage...

ARK

Garmus, I guess it's because I'm focusing on the every day. Honestly, I think that's what RAG is really asking...every day.

RAG...I'm telling you WHY...why for *me* anyway.

I'll repeat...I LOVE sex, but there are things in life that affect my libido. I am perfectly willing to do things for my husband simply because I love him. However if I have an extended time period where I do not want SF..then filling that need for him every day without him being considerate to my own feelings about it would lead to resentment. So *that's* the reason..I do not wish to resent my husband.

Following on Garmus post about the actual why's. Now these are only the why's for me...Stress and depression really affect my libido. This stress and depression can have nothing at all to do with my husband, but they still affect my desire to have sex. When I went for that year long thing of not wanting to have sex--I did try to get help but nothing was really working. I wish now I had tried harder to find help that *would* work, but I didn't. Depression can be "icky" that way. I missed the sex...I felt badly about what I was doing and I knew it wasn't right. But I could NOT get myself out of my funk. On top of that..my husband was *too* patient and understanding about it...he allowed me to take advantage of that. That made me feel even worse. There are other reasons for me not wanting to have sex but those are usually just temporary and pass quickly....stress and depression are the major factors for me when we're talking about long-term desire loss.

Ark,

Sorry, I thought they were the same basic question. If not the same words, the same meaning.