</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by weaver:
<strong> When I read Garmus's last post about compartmentalizing sex, about only meeting each others need part of the time, and about the resentment which grows, I can see clearly that this is where I went wrong, with my DD's dad. And where he went wrong........
(snipped)
......It isn't easy for those of us who never made it to recovery to read though because we lost he chance to fix it, but it will help in our next relationship. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That was an excellent post, weaver.

My wife and I spent a bit over a decade learning a simple lesson. We almost lost our marriage over it.

You talked about never having been taught about the role of sex in a marriage. I have made similar complaints many times.

Our relationship was saved because we worked through this issue. I am sorry that yours wasn't saved in time, but you obviously have an excellent mind to be able to take a lesson to heart, even if it is after the fact, or in preparation for a new relationship.

Bravo, weaver!!

Gimble

Maddy, for me too, I have 2 weeks where I'm ripping my H's clothes off him, can't get enough, then my hormones turn on me, and I'm not quite so willing.

I can come up with all kinds of reasons why not, but I think it is a hormonal thing. My H doesn't suddenly become less appealing to me.

I had sex forced upon me for years, I know RESENTMENT!!!!!

My H is now not stimulating himself with other things, such as porn, that has helped tremendously. He isn't always worked up and ready to go.

I'm a sexual girl, he just has to wait a couple days, than we have great sex, instead of forced sex every single night.

I have learned, that it isn't just sex that he wants, but physical touch. I'm now loving him by touching him, this has calmed him down a ton also. I hug him and kiss him more, and flirt with him, he then feels love. It isn't all just felt by sex.

He feels love through Physical touch. The 5 Love Languages is a great book, along with Men are from Mars Woman from Venus, in the bedroom.

I do service him because I love him, it is an act of love, but if it is forced upon me, it is only builds up resentment.

KY

bingo! the need for physical touch IS something I can relate to. I may want SF every day but I NEED a certain amount of physical connection or else I get imbalanced. SF is the most intense form of physical contact but if there is enough of the less focused contact it can ameliorate the feelings of emotional isolation and separateness that can mess up what I would consider a more balanced SF drive. The other thing here is that for me SF doesn't always have to be vaginal intercourse. That may be the best feeling way but that doesn't mean that other ways of my wife servicing me don't feel good too. if she's got her period or doesn't have the wetness sometime I know she WANTS to have things be good and right and pleasurable for her for her to want to do the full vaginal intercourse and I don't mind at all if on those occasions when she's not got it all going full on that she does something different. I'm just as fulfilled I think from some affectionate friction from her hands or breasts or mouth or whatever she wants to use instead of her vagina.

I think that perhaps we men don't fully appreciate the complexity of the proper care and keeping of a healthy vagina because we don't have one. Our organ is pretty low maintainance really. We never need to do anything with it actually and when we want to have fun with it under 99% of the circumstances it's ready willing and rises to the occasion without any particular effort. That means it's hard for us men to really develop empathy for a woman's personal physical maintainance needs. all that women have to do to keep themselves clean and balanced and comfortable. We just can't really relate because we don't have to do any of that. We can pretty much get right to enjoying sensations whenever, whereever and however. I think a little extra patience with our wives goes along way along with a willingness to accept our differences.

This is an interesting thread. And I hope everyone keeps it that way. It is just a discussion.

But what I wanted to add was, first...Dr. Harley has on this website an article that talks about differences in low libido between men and women. That low libido in men almost always is a testosterone problem. So, seek medical attention. That women, it may be a myriad of other reasons. Which leads me to my next point.

First, mean and women are DIFFERENT!! I know that may shock the liberal feminists out there. In the sex area, men have the advantage. How? Well, again Dr. Harley explains it best when he says there is one thing that men have in abundant supply...testosterone!! And that hormone is the greatest aphrodisiac known to man. It is why we men can be ready for sex with the drop of a hat.

Failure by men and women to recognize that most women do not have this advantage is to our detriment. Over and over again on this thread, the women are saying that they need more. They need conversation, affection...less stress, in order to get in the mood. Again, for us to ignore that leaves us with a problem.

Men must understand that what it takes to get a woman (most) to the point of wanting to have sex, is different that what it takes for us. Usually, the mere thought of sex puts us in the mood. Definitely the sight of our wives can do that. But women require more. That is the reality.

If we want sex everyday, then my wife and I better find out together what it will take to get each of us i nthe mood for that. For me...it doesnt take much. I have been known to be ready, even with a 102 degree temperature. I dont know of many women, especially my wife, that would be ready while sick. does that mean my wife has to engage my number one EN (SF) when she is sick, just because I can do it when I am not feelign well? Nope.

But, here come the big "but..."

If my number one need was conversation, and I came home and my wife said "look, I had a rough day, I am sick, whatever...and I am just not in the mood for talking" does that mean she has to meet my EN for conversation on that particular night? Of course not. Then why does that apply differently to sex?

Since my number one is SF and number two is affection, my wife has it kind of tough. Because Steve Harley told me one time that it is our responsibility to meet our spouses top 5 needs MOST of the time, and for us to meet their top 3 needs ALL of the time. That is if we want them to be happy and our marriage to be fulfilling.

So, in order to make my wife happy, I need to fulfill financial security, affection and conversation ALL of the time. And my wife has to meet SF, affection and appreciation ALL of the time.

But how does she do that? Remember, we have to fulfill their top ENs in the way they need them fulfilled. And believe me, if I could get SF everyday, I would be a happy man. But, is that reasonable? Maybe.

If my wife wants conversation fulfilled everyday, is that reasonable? Maybe.

There is no difference with her need for financial security and my need for SF. Or her need for conversation and my need for appreciation. None. So, sometimes, I will need to converse with my wife, even though I am not in the mood. And sometimes, my wife will need to do something with me, even though she is not in the mood.

Why? Because all of us here on MB should understand by now the concept of ENs and the love bank. And what it takes to keep it full. We cannot argue that one EN is more important than another. We have a spouse that is built the way they are and their needs are what they are. Ignore them or minimize them at our own peril.

In His arms.

Sex every night?

Yes, please. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Since we share it as a top 3..it is understood that while there are certainly occasions that might cause one or the other of us to need to abstain..it is also understood that WHEN we do it makes a withdrawl.

I don't think anyone would argue to vehemently that there is NEVER a reason good enough to be legit. People get sick, they get tired, they get overwrought.

What suprises me though..is the concept that BECAUSE you have what seems to be a good reason for not meeting a need you are exempt..there will be no consequence.

It seems a cake eaters position. Either meet the need or accept that it is going unmet.

What is being argued is not what is being questionned.

Where need meets want on the spectrum is irrelevant. When the line gets crossed, it's crossed. Not unlike anything else we might discuss here..on the infidelity board.

Respect and care and protection come into play..for both parties.

I think the issue is less about sex than it seems.

Noodle

OK, right now SF is my NO. 1 need. However for my wife the ENs are admiration and non-sexual affection are tops. SO I am trying to not think about SF and embrace cuddling in a nonsexual way. I will let you know how it goes. Wife gave me a massive amount of cuddling last nite and I seem to be doing OK.

Mortarman said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I have been known to be ready, even with a 102 degree temperature.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Honey, is that you??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Okay, I'll jump in here. I will give you a three word answer that works for either wording of RAG's question:

Not enough foreplay.

It's hard for her to enjoy sex when he doesn't take the time and effort to ensure that she is - how shall I say this, ummmmm, forgive my bluntness - properly lubed.

The anecdotes I hear indicate that he is quite often ready from the get-go but she might need a little, um, direct stimulation, along with a few minutes to get her brain into it as well (and yes, SF for women is probably as much from the brain as from "down there." This ain't rocket science but some guys just don't seem to get it.

As men get older they enjoy foreplay. In fact I would gladly give my wife hours of foreplay, I rather enjoy doing that. I get pleasure if my wife is having a good time. I get very little pressure from a quickie. Psst------ my wife is more into quickies than I am and she can do it without foreplay. I have adviced her to enjoy foreplay, but she will not allow that to happen. The only foreplay she likes is the one she gives to me. She is a giver and refuses to acept much while having SF. She gets her pleasure from giving, not receiving. What do you think?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by GBH:
<strong> Okay, I'll jump in here. I will give you a three word answer that works for either wording of RAG's question:

Not enough foreplay.

It's hard for her to enjoy sex when he doesn't take the time and effort to ensure that she is - how shall I say this, ummmmm, forgive my bluntness - properly lubed.

The anecdotes I hear indicate that he is quite often ready from the get-go but she might need a little, um, direct stimulation, along with a few minutes to get her brain into it as well (and yes, SF for women is probably as much from the brain as from "down there." This ain't rocket science but some guys just don't seem to get it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">While this is a consideration, I don't think it is the core issue of the topic currently under discussion. The core issue is that many women take the stance that if they aren't feeling sexually inclined, even for long stretches of time, then they are alleviated from meeting this need with their spouse. Kind of a "no hormones, no harm, no foul" belief, instead of recognizing the very high possibility that they are failing their spouse (if sex is topping spouse's needs chart) and contributing to the demise of their relationship, their intimacy and their marriage.

However, when examining their own needs, it appears that they aren't considering the damage done if their spouse chooses to downplay and/or ignore the emotional needs they personally deem important.

In other words, there is a distinct lack of empathy for the spouse who has a high need for sexual intimacy, by casting that need aside for "don't feel like it, too tired, etc. reasons. I am not saying that there aren't legitimate reasons for the occasional rain check. But IF the higher drive spouse's intimacy needs are neglected on a regular basis, then there is a great need to re-examine the premise.

I think a quick guide to whether or not this is an issue in a marriage is whether or not the lower drive spouse avoids physical contact with the higher drive spouse in order to circumvent the possibility of physical affection leading to sex.

Garmus, if you're saying that based on anything I said, my posts were grossly misunderstood.

My whole basis for this post was sex every day, regardless of sexual desire.

Again, it seems to me that you're putting the onus on the spouse with the lower sex drive, rather than putting equal onus on the spouse with the higher sex drive.

stanly said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is a giver and refuses to acept much while having SF. She gets her pleasure from giving, not receiving. What do you think?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">she is CRAZY!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Totally a joke, Myrta.

I agree with Garmus. What if, for 2 weeks out of the month, the H stopped meeting EN's for the W, because his hormones aren't in check. The W would be empty. That is how I try and look at it for my H.

Come 2 weeks out of the month, I don't want to, but he still does, and it is his highest need, so I meet it, because I love him.

Also, what has helped us SOOOOOOOOOO much, I'm pleasured first, then I always want to tear him apart!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> TMI, sorry.

He has also learned to respect when I'm ill, give me space, if I have only 4 hours to sleep, give me space. Respect goes along ways. Also my H is very much meeting my EN, and therefore, I find him more attractive then ever.

EN = foreplay

KY

kyellow4--About the statement my husband made about me......I get a lot of pleasure from seeing my husband having so much pleasure himself. That gets me very excited and more into it. So I do it for myself too. I also like to be in charge, and I am not afraid to say it. I like and enjoy very much being able to have him in my hands,at my mercy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> . But at the end of it all, we are both inmerse in the pleasure and having a great time.
My husband never complains !!Of course he complains now, because he wants to have SF every night, but before he never did!

MYRTA

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 04:59 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 05:00 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

As Count Basie used to say, “One more once!”

I thought I asked a simple question and started World War III. Since Ark thought my questions were different, I put them together to try to illustrate my point.

I've a sincere question for you ladies. If you love your husband as you say you do, what is wrong with SF every day/night? I did NOT say a spouse has to perform SF all the time whether they want to or not. I was asking WHY you don't want to. Why so much resentment?

I put in the ten days because it is in the bible. One of the replies was a little too much information. I mentioned medical reasons, etc. I think vaginal dryness is a medical reason. I stated that the husband is attentive and all the other good things to his wife and family. In our case, we can’t afford flowers all the time. (You civilians don’t pay us retired soldiers enough to live high on the hog.) However, she does get them sent to where she works on those special days. (I’m amazed that sometimes she is the only one to receive flowers on Valentine’s Day.)

I’m not asking about me in particular, I was/am asking in general.

Myrta, Stanley will even out. I think he is trying to reclaim his wife and sooth his insecurites. As I wrote to you before, you are his one and only, it was a great shock and hurt to find that he was not your one and only. When my first wife wanted to return, I felt it was not out of love, but in order to get free room and board.

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: RAG ]</small>

RAG-- Well, Rag, I am not your first wife, so you should not compare her to me. I guess thats why you are in your #? wife?
I am my husband's only love and he is my only love too. Just because I was sexual with a man,does not mean I was his! My husband and I are still each other's love!
He knows I am his, he isjust taking advantage of the situation now.

MYRTA

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aislinn:
<strong> Garmus, if you're saying that based on anything I said, my posts were grossly misunderstood.

My whole basis for this post was sex every day, regardless of sexual desire.

Again, it seems to me that you're putting the onus on the spouse with the lower sex drive, rather than putting equal onus on the spouse with the higher sex drive. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please note all of the following is for discussion purposes and is not meant as a critique in any way and any use of the word "you" is rhetorical and not specific to you.

I guess I'm just failing to see why the "every day" is such a sticking point. If you're married to someone who wants to make love to you every day, whose number one emotional need is sexual fulfillment with you, and you are the *only* person with whom he should fulfill this need - I guess the onus IS on you. (Rhetorical you throughout the post).

When it comes to emotional needs in a marital relationship "avoiding sex with my spouse" isn't listed. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

There really are people in relationships who won't converse with their spouse. They don't feel like it and they don't want to. So they don't. Or they are willing to talk with their spouse if it's a topic they are really interested in AND their bi-weekly need for conversation has finally been aroused.

Do you think that is acceptable to the spouse who longs to talk to her spouse regularly beyond "what's for dinner"?

I don't see how that is any different than meeting sexual needs. If your spouse does want to make love to you 6 to 7 times a week, and your attitude going in is more along the line of "how few can you get by with and still maintain the relationship" rather than having the desire to make the effort to see how you can actually meet the need - can you see how the attitude going in is going to impact your mindset?

Someone who wants to make love to their spouse everyday is going to have an empty lovebank if he/she gets to once a week, with the other 5 or 6 days spent fighting frustration and rejection. Especially if their spouse begins ducking away and avoiding them physically because they don't want it to lead to anything else. Because very often a person with sex as their highest emotional need will have physical touch & affection filling in their top needs.

Maybe you can tell me what you see as the primary difference that allows "I really don't feel like it" to be the criteria upon which it will be determined whether or not an emotional need in a marriage will be met. Because I don't get it.

And to go back to something I posted earlier on, I would hazard a guess that a MAJORITY of marriages on the skids are a direct result of sexual frequency disparities between the couple and the inability to arrive at a resolution that works for the higher drive spouse. If that is so, it would behoove us to consider its import more, rather than leave it to the whims of wispy hormones (as opposed to seeing what we can do to affect our libido in positive ways).

Sexual drive is not dependent only on hormones. If a lower drive woman is married to a higher drive man, IF she is willing to work on it, she can increase her sexual desire and capabilities.

But that willingness is not going to happen as long as we huddle behind the idea that sexual needs are different than other emotional needs and are therefore less important to meet on a regular basis.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong> RAG-- Well, Rag, I am not your first wife, so you should not compare her to me. I guess thats why you are in your #? wife?
MYRTA </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, there's enough pain already on this board. Your choice to add to the pain with purposeful cruelty says something about you.

Garmus, I'll relate with a real life EN.

I have a need for affection, non-sexual physical touch. My husband is very good at giving it to me. This is something I need every day.

But if he's been flying on an 8-hour resue mission where he just saw people getting eaten by sharks (true story)...only to come back to his job and get his [censored] chewed for one of his auxillary duties...I expect that he will want to be left alone for the evening. His need to relax after a day like that far outrides my need for affection, even though affection is a big need of mine.

Day two--similiar day for him...again, i understand and let him have his alone time.

Day three--Okay, maybe now I'm feeling like I need to have that connection and perhaps am feeling neglected, even though I know he's had a rough week, so I ask for and receive affection.

Day four--another day just like this....my need for affection is very strong...so I ask for and receive again..but I can tell he's a little bit put off my filling this need of mine, after the week he's had. I know he's filling this need of mine because he loves me, but even I can recognize that I might be being selfish.

Day five--I allow him his alone time without resentment because I love him and also recognize his need for space.


Give and take. Onus needs to be put on BOTH spouses...the one who's need is highest should respect the one who's need is lower. The one who's need is lower should recognize the one who's need is higher, respect that and give as often as they can WITHOUT resentment.

What you're saying about the onus *should* be on the spouse with the lower need...can be turned around in exact fashion to the one with the higher need.