GARMUS--He can say things to me but I cannot defend myself?? How do you know there is not pain in his statement to me? He is implying that I am staying with my husband, "for free room and board", not because I love my husband? It was rather offensive for Rag to say that to me. And he is putting ugly thoughts in my husband's mind (he already has enough!!).

Thank you for your post Garmus!

MYRTA

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 08:58 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Myrta:
<strong> GARMUS--He can say things to me but I cannot defend myself?? How do you know there is not pain in his statement to me? He is implying that I am staying with my husband, "for free room and board", not because I love my husband? It was rather offensive for Rag to say that to me. And he is putting ugly thoughts in my husband's mind (he already has enough!!).

Thank you for your post Garmus!

MYRTA </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">RAG wrote:
"Myrta, Stanley will even out. I think he is trying to reclaim his wife and sooth his insecurites. As I wrote to you before, you are his one and only, it was a great shock and hurt to find that he was not your one and only. When my first wife wanted to return, I felt it was not out of love, but in order to get free room and board."

No.

First he encouraged you by saying that Stanley would even out. He expressed his opinion of why Stanley seemed to need more sex and he seems to have written it with the hope that in doing so you might have more understanding of what Stanley is going through. Then he wrote about his own hurt, fear and distrust after his wife's infidelity.

You didn't defend yourself.

You lashed out in an attempt to incite pain in RAG for a perceived offense. There is a great deal of difference.

You can defend yourself without attacking. You can ask for an explanation of whether or not his intent was to hurt you. You can express your own hurt WITHOUT going for the jugular.

Seeking clarification before launching the emotional nukes would serve you better.

Myrta,

I was NOT comparing you to my 1st wife. Please, it was never in my thought pattern. I was trying to illustrate how some guys, like me, might feel to a non remosful wife returning. After 19 years of misery, I knew my 1st didn't love me.

When she left the 1st time, she returned pregnant with her lover's child. I raised her as my own. When she left the second time, I'd had it and did not let her return. I was a single parent to the three children for five years.

She has been through 4 or 5 marriages and is now living alone. I'm on my second marriage going on 20 years.

I don't think our situations are simular. However, I feel a man who has loved his wife all his life has an illusion of him being her one and only sex partner. When he finds that is not true, he is crushed.

Notice, I did not say you don't love Stanley, I did not say Stanley doesn't love you.

Pax?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aislinn:
<strong> Garmus, I'll relate with a real life EN.

I have a need for affection, non-sexual physical touch. My husband is very good at giving it to me. This is something I need every day.

But if he's been flying on an 8-hour resue mission where he just saw people getting eaten by sharks (true story)...only to come back to his job and get his [censored] chewed for one of his auxillary duties...I expect that he will want to be left alone for the evening. His need to relax after a day like that far outrides my need for affection, even though affection is a big need of mine.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I haven't argued that there are occasional extenuating circumstances. But, a$$ chewing and shark meals aside, exactly how long does it take to come home, greet your wife, hug her close and let her know that you're so glad to be home with her where there is peace and love specifically for him, apart from a world that tears us down & rips us up on a regular basis?

If he has taken to heart your highest needs, he can be willing to step out of himself long enough to look you in the eye and let you know how important you are to him. And the point is to do it BEFORE you have to come looking for it. Maybe the hug won't be for as long as you would like, but the heart fills up when our spouses meet us, even in their extremity.

Because I can assure you that for most of us on a regular basis, as Cheers put it "it's a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing Milk Bone underwear." If we wait until we get peaceful, stressless days before we can give to our spouses, then there are going to be a lot of emotionally hungry people out there.

And I think that's what we see today.

<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
What you're saying about the onus *should* be on the spouse with the lower need...can be turned around in exact fashion to the one with the higher need. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I am saying, is that good intentions & patience aside, failure to step up to the plate and meet each other's deepest needs on a REGULAR basis to the point where each person feels treasured and loved will often result in a busted marriage.

I ask again, if the spouse longs to make love 5 days a week and the other spouse is only inspired to do so 5 days a month - what do you think the result is going to be after a few years if the lower drive spouse doesn't work toward the goal of meeting that need in an ongoing, satisfactory way?

I can tell you what I have seen as a result. Hurt, frustration, disappointment, depression, anger, withdrawal.

Garmus, I can't really answer that.

Again, I was focusing on the EVERY DAY aspect...where to me a reasonable compromise to every day when you're not feeling up to SF (for example) would be 4/3 or 5/2 (in favor of fulfilling the need). I was not speaking of 5/30.

There was a time I did go through the 5/30 and it *was* devastating to my marriage. My husband did not really communicate to me how important it was to him and how frustrating it was. He was, on the surface, very understanding and patient. I took him at his word. I shouldn't have, but I did...and I paid the price.

Really, my original post was focused on the every day aspect. I don't know if that is the misunderstanding in this whole post or what.

RAG- Thank you for your explaining post. I really appreciated.
Sorry, if I was a bit harsh before <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> . But I am kind in a tough position right now in my marriage. I feel like I am being prosecuted left and right.
I understand perfectly what you say about my husband. It crushes me to the core, that I did this to him. We were really unique and I broke that. But he was still my first love, my first lover and he is my only husband forever and ever.
I am happy you are in a succesful 20+ marriage. Sorry about your first wife. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

Take care. Thank you again.

MYRTA

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 10:54 PM: Message edited by: Myrta ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aislinn:
<strong> Garmus, I can't really answer that.

Again, I was focusing on the EVERY DAY aspect...where to me a reasonable compromise to every day when you're not feeling up to SF (for example) would be 4/3 or 5/2 (in favor of fulfilling the need). I was not speaking of 5/30.

There was a time I did go through the 5/30 and it *was* devastating to my marriage. My husband did not really communicate to me how important it was to him and how frustrating it was. He was, on the surface, very understanding and patient. I took him at his word. I shouldn't have, but I did...and I paid the price.

Really, my original post was focused on the every day aspect. I don't know if that is the misunderstanding in this whole post or what. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi, aislin.

It appears to me that Garmus is saying that basing your willingness to meet a partner's needs (any legitimate emotional need, not just sex) on how YOU (anyone) feel at any particular time is not only a slippery slope, but can lead to, and often is, marital suicide.

If the emotional frequency need is daily, bi-weekly, monthly or whatever, and regardless of the need - sex, conversation, fiscal responsibility, recreational or whatever, there had better be a really good reason to miss it AT ALL.

All the best,
Gimble

The thread was started because of my wife's post. So I will add more personal details----- after all this is anonymous.

Before my wife had the affair I was happy with SF a couple of times a week--------- more so during the weekend.

The issue of daily sex is the result of the affair. I am told is the sperm competition syndrome and I seem to have it. I know this will pas, but as of now SF is NO. 1 for me and I hate to diet------ it makes me sad and sometimes cranky. I am working on using cuddling as a substitute as I know my wife is very tired at night. Every-time I go without SF for 3-4 days I always feel down and start to revert back to the early feelings I had immediately post D-day.

I honestly believe that if there was not such a battle to get the SF it would not be an issue anymore and I would probably be satisfied with a lower frequency. Maybe I am wrong on this one, but I have no other explanation.

Hi all -- I haven't added to this discussion yet, but I agree with the posters who say as a wife (in my case) or a husband who has a spouse who has this need as one of their top needs, we need to try to meet it whether we feel like it or not. With SF it is particularly important. Why? Because it is the ONE need that is exclusive to your spouse only. I can get some of my conversation needs met through other friends, family, if my spouse doesn't want to/can't meet this need for me. I can get some affection from my children. Heck, I can get admiration at work.

But SF? If that's one your top needs, it's excusive (or should be)to your spouse so it should be cared for and tended even more than the other needs. If I want to meet my H's SF need, then I have to be prepared for the possibility of meeting it when I don't particularly want to, but because it's his need. SH made this point with me when we were in counseling. Have I done it right and consistently? No. But I should be and after reading this thread, I realize I need to do a better job.

Thanks for a great thread.
Shellybird
(BS - ME-45)
(WS - Him -52)
PA ONS with NANNY 7 seven years ago
D-Day, Sept. 2003
I'm still trying to get over it.

No, I think you are probably correct Stanley.

If either your tank were filled to overflow..or you didn't have to negotiate for SF..you probably wouldn't mind if a day or so went by every now and then until you had sorted yourself out.

As a BS though..things get tricky.

I agree with Garmus. Sure [in your case] Myrta can find SF disagreeable at any time for any reason..what she can NOT do is find it disagreeable AND dictate that this is [or should be] just fine with you..it obviously is not.

Unmet needs are unmet needs. No matter how you slice it, they will have consequences.

Noodle

<small>[ January 10, 2005, 11:24 PM: Message edited by: noodle ]</small>

If either your tank were filled to overflow..or you didn't have to negotiate for SF..you probably wouldn't mind if a day or so went by every now and then until you had sorted yourself out.

Then I must be running low because I become VERY depressed. It would be fine to skip 1-2 days. But, now we skip 3-4-5 days and it IS VERY HARD ON ME!

I agree with Garmus. Sure [in your case] Myrta can find SF disagreeable at any time for any reason..what she can NOT do is find it disagreeable AND dictate that this is [or should be] just fine with you..it obviously is not.

If wife finds sex disagreeable it hurts 10 fold as a BH. One has to deal with the fact that OM was never denied. IN fact the only limiting factor was his ability to turn around after one orgasm.

Unmet needs are unmet needs. No matter how you slice it, they will have consequences.

I agree

Myrta said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I get a lot of pleasure from seeing my husband having so much pleasure himself. That gets me very excited and more into it. So I do it for myself too. I also like to be in charge, and I am not afraid to say it. I like and enjoy very much being able to have him in my hands,at my mercy . But at the end of it all, we are both immerse in the pleasure and having a great time.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've never been more attracted to you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Garmus said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Someone who wants to make love to their spouse everyday is going to have an empty lovebank if he/she gets to once a week, with the other 5 or 6 days spent fighting frustration and rejection. Especially if their spouse begins ducking away and avoiding them physically because they don't want it to lead to anything else. Because very often a person with sex as their highest emotional need will have physical touch & affection filling in their top needs.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I hear you, and I understand, however, my greatest need is companionship, I like to play cards, or sports together, my H doesn't always want to play cards, he doesn't ever want to play on a v-ball league with me, he seldom wants to do any of that kind of stuff, sure he does occasionally, but I get turned down all the time. Should he always have to say yes to me, or is he allowed to have a headache???

Garmus said, </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Sexual drive is not dependent only on hormones. If a lower drive woman is married to a higher drive man, IF she is willing to work on it, she can increase her sexual desire and capabilities.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agreee, we are achieving this. My M is completely different then it has been in years past, my love bank/tank is now full, where as before it has always been almost empty. This changes my desires drastically.

Stanley, my H feels what you are saying you feel. He is depressed if we go a couple days or 3. Thank you for sharing, it has helped me understand.

I have just read The 5 Love Languages, and it has really helped us. My H is feeling so much love from me, because I am finally speaking his language. Myrta wants you to feel her love Stanley, she so obviously loves you, she might just not be speaking to you the way that you feel loved. We love, how we feel love, it doesn't make it wrong, it just might not be the right way our S feels it.

Great thread.

KY

Hmm, my tank must be running low too, maybe thats why I dont feel like doing it everyday!!

Myrta

Myrta,

I think the "why" of desire to resist is important..but something that only you [and a good IC] can find the answer to.

What is really pressing, for either of you, or any person [sauce for goose...] is that unmet needs have consequences right, wrong, or indifferent. it has to be addressed and dealt with or resentment WILL probably be a factor.

It certainly can be a vicious cycle. What needs do you feel are not being met?

Sometimes resistance can have a "snake eating itself" effect and become an end as well as a means.

Noodle

Garmus, I think you missed my point, which was...

A woman might be more inclined to have SF more often if it was more pleasurable to her. If a man's top EN is to have SF every day, then it at least partially his responsibility to ensure that it is pleasurable for her, doncha think?

Same could be said for either partner meeting any EN... that each partner bears a responsibility to do what they can to ensure that the other partner is comfortable, safe, etc.

Doing that would minimize any resentment and maximize pleasure, IMVHO.

But for a partner to demand a certain frequency of SF, but make no efforts to make it pleasurable for the other partner, well that's just plain selfish, IMHHO.

NOODLE-- You are right about resistance, but in my case is not true. I do not resist anything with my husband. When things are going well in our sexuality, and we do it ,lets say , a couple of days in a roll, if I do refuse him the next day, he will turn around, and become nasty, moody, whatever negative mood he chooses. He will say nasty comments, like "I am going to have to find a woman to pleasure me" that will hurt me, and turn me off for days to come.

So it does become a vicious cycle, because I am concentrating in his nasty comments and he is concentrating in my refusal for his sexual advancements. Sometimes we cuddle,touching, kissing,but no sex, thats very fullfilling, but in his case, everything has to lead to sex or else!! So, sometimes I feel like cuddling with him, but I stop myself because I dont want to give him the wrong idea if I am not in the mood. I am not in the mood sometimes, not because of him, but because I work like a slave thru the day doing everything for everyone in the house, and we go to sleep really late every night andget up before 7 in the morning. So I have very good reasons for being exhausted. We never ,ever, go more than 3 days with out having sex.
I know better than that!!!

Myrta

Going back 879 pages, RAG said I did NOT say a spouse has to perform SF all the time whether they want to or not. I was asking WHY you don't want to.


OK. Squid has a new appreciation of SF and of my efforts thereof since her A. She wanted ( and wants!) a lot of SF.

Teh reason I don't want to every day is that the 'specialness' and warm intimacy of SF is lost a little for me when it occurs too often.

Our best SF comes after a non sexual cuddle or an evening's public flirting ! That inflames both of us and we have great SF.

Squid has taken to wanting 'quickies' regularly in addition, and thats fine but not what I am built for, physically or emotionally. But I know its a source of great pleasure to Squid so I try to comply. And its actually very flattering that she takes such enjoyment from my physicality.

SO the reason I don't like to give SF every night is that I LOVE intimacy with Squid but I find conversation, cuddling and kissing more satisfyingly intimate than mechanical SF.

Well, one day without is not a biggy-- not at all. Even two days is not a big deal either. I will admit my mood changes after three days or more, no doubt. I only mentioned the idea of getting SF outside the marriage only once.

This brings another question regarding daily SF:

I am not interested in having SF if my partner feels obligated. Ideally SF should be a situation where both want it. I have discovered that SF when my wife is not motivated is not good at all. So why would a husband be happy receiving duty SF?

There is also the realization that if the wife does not feel like having SF she must have a low tank or is still suffering from withdrawal. There may also be no attraction for the spouse. These are not happy situations for those involved.

I rub my wife’s back and massage her scalp for as much as two hours a night. I also do foot massage or any other service her body demands. It is not uncommon for me to run my fingers thru her hair for an entire hour while she watches TV. I have been doing this nightly for seven months. This seems to be her No. 1 EN besides admiration. According to her her more important needs are admiration and the pampering. SF is not in the top three.

I have reached the conclusion that we have become sexually incompatible. This was never a problem in the past. Before the affair we made love when we both wanted to make love and there was no such a thing as duty sex. Now there is a major discrepancy and it is obviously causing major depletion of the love tanks. I am certainly not looking for SF anymore and seem to be adjusting relatively well even if I feel down. I am trying very hard not to bring it up (though I am now) and not to apply ANY PRESSURE AT ALL in bed. I decided several days ago that we will only have SF when Myrta has the desire. Otherwise, I think I will manage. I certainly don’t want to end my marriage over this and will try to let time take care of it.

IMO, it’s not SF frequency needs issue, but – trust issue… You should find more fulfilling ways to regain the trust, and she has to understand and help you find the more successful way…
You need a reassurance she’ll never be with OM (or any other man) and you seek for it through you sex life…
In your mind, she had sex with other man -> she must had been in luck of it prior to A?
I.e. now, you think the more you ‘give her sex’ the less she’ll ever be tempted to want having it with someone else? Somehow you correlate sex frequency with (her) love, belonging to you, commitment to M and never repeating cheating…?

You torture yourself, and not only by doing this…

This might help you (and it is really truth!) - The grass ‘over there’ is not! greener; otherwise your S would be there right now…

Okay, trying not to beat a dead horse, but RAG restates his question:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If you love your husband as you say you do, what is wrong with SF every day/night? I did NOT say a spouse has to perform SF all the time whether they want to or not. I was asking WHY you don't want to. Why so much resentment? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Kasey makes a very good point here, IMVHO:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I think that perhaps we men don't fully appreciate the complexity of the proper care and keeping of a healthy vagina because we don't have one. Our organ is pretty low maintainance really. We never need to do anything with it actually and when we want to have fun with it under 99% of the circumstances it's ready willing and rises to the occasion without any particular effort. That means it's hard for us men to really develop empathy for a woman's personal physical maintainance needs. all that women have to do to keep themselves clean and balanced and comfortable. We just can't really relate because we don't have to do any of that. We can pretty much get right to enjoying sensations whenever, whereever and however. I think a little extra patience with our wives goes along way along with a willingness to accept our differences. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">From a W's perspective, I suspect that many a W would be willing to meet her H's SF need more often, and with less resentment, if she were assured that the SF act would be pleasurable for her as well as for her H. Does anyone get my point here??? If HE wants HER to "service" him (how I HATE that word), then perhaps HE ought to become better at "servicing" HER. Then it will be a win-win for both.

Which begs the question: Assume the H thinks he is awesome in the sack but in reality his W does not find his technique to be satisfactory. How does the W communicate her SF preferences/needs to her H without totally blowing his very fragile ego?