2long,

Not that I have read any of these responses 2 you, but I don't believe you should quit until you have the numbers 222 for 2long in them. Maybe 6222? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Anyway, I am sorry your w doesn't understand the need for no contact. This would make it so much easier for u.

Hey, you didn't get any 2's in your member number, but perhaps you could get them in the amount of times you have posted <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

You cannot change anything that your wife has done, but you can change you.

2, have you ever, EVER considered plan B to let your wife know that you are not comfortable with continued contact, be it every 6 months or whatever?

Just wondering. By the way, you are SO WORTHY. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Just throwing it out there for you. You are the poster boy for plan A. 2long, you have been in plan A for 2long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Love in Christ,
Miss M

<small>[ January 15, 2005, 01:41 AM: Message edited by: Miss M ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Penny agrees, I don't need plan B at this stage.

Just need a little work on my H'ing skills.

That, and my famously yummy patience! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-ol' 2long

I think you ought to quit at 6K posts. I always get pissed when another MB "youngster" passes me up with posts. That kathi and starfish really get my goat...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

2long,

Well, here is my take on some things... not sure what your experiences are so far with discussing things. I took the approach of not ask any questions. As hard as that may seem to some people... it wasn't a stick your head in the ground type thing, it was the ask only questions that bear real meaning, and have relevance. So, I decided I would simply state, No Contact, whatsoever...for the rest of your life.

Of course, 3 months later, he broke contact... but, I softly warned her, never again... if he came to my house again, it would be the last time he did it... lol. That actually might have got her attention... cuz of the way I said it, I explained to her, I've kept away from all the hate, all the revenge, all of the garbage, but, if he came to my house again, I wouldn't fight it anymore...

Anyways, I think that the husband, when he is the BS, doesn't stand up strong enough at times during the course of things... first of all, I think they should go plan b almost immediately upon discovery. Then, when recovery finally takes place...when contact is deliberately broken, i believe a firm stance shoud be demonstrated.. maybe so far as to moving out...not asa threat, but as a demonstration. Now, of course, this is a touchy process, as if you move out, you lose rights to a lot of stuff... but, it demonstrates that you are dead serious... no contact is just that. Otherwise, it's this stupid game of oh, I just said Hi, wanted to make sure his wife was ok... blah blah blah.. and all the while, still disrespecting you, the husband... who overcame that which God released you from. GRRRRR.

Anyways... questions. Is it details? I find myself walking down the detail path every now and then.. wondering... and well, one thing I've come to realize, they, the details really don't seem to matter... and second, even if you did ask, would you believe the answer? Or would you still doubt the answer...because, well, odds are she is lying to protect your feelings... and what she said probably did hurt, but, she probably knew if she didn't hurt you a bit, you wouldn't believe her...so, she tossed ya a tiny hurt bone... see what I mean?

I find myself alot of late sitting here trying to figure out if there is really a recovery. Or, in 10 years, will I still not be able to listen to a song on the radio, and think about the affair..any song, doesn't matter.. I reach to change a station and I think of the affair.. I drive down the road, and think of the affair.. I reach out to put my hand on my wife's leg, and it's all about the affair...I pay a bill, and it's about the affair. This is at one year...so, maybe it's too soon for me to think it should have gone down a bit...maybe at 3 years I should look back at this thread....

I'm quitting smoking now, and doing it cold turkey. I tried the patch, and well, they caused nightmares...and of course, as any BS would, you know what the nightmares always were... so I quit wearing the patch.. my wife was like why? I said cuz I'm tired of the nightmares... she gave me a look, and then I think she realized, wait a minute...he'd rather deal with nicotine withdrawl than a bad dream, maybe I should leave it alone. (good decision) I was 1 word away from saying the hardest thing she'd heard from me, and that was honestly just that I can't stand every night watching you have sex with another man... interestingly enough, she seems to have quite a few bad dreams where I'm having sex with other women. I still can't get a read on that one, but maybe it's just her guilty conscience eating her up? no clue.

Anyways, following such a crappy and depressing post, I feel it's important to say that I do love my wife,tremendously...but, I wondre about the future in a different sense now. I think that I have made it to a real decision time, is this the place for me. It's really hard to make that decision...and what does God have to say about it... like...I say, yes, this is my home and my wife... and I try like hell, for the next 10 years, but, in 10 years, it's still on me, heavy...and I say God, I tried....can I go? Am I still free to exercise the liberties He gave us concerning divorice? Wow, typing that I realize how little my wife knows what is going on inside my head, even though she likes to think she knows me because she can tell when I'm messing with a person in a car next to me driving down the road (I'm a big road rage type guy...lol).

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
<strong> 2long, there is not one other person that I know "personally" who can say "I do Mars." I'm not being smutty or sarcastic, I'm genuinely impressed.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" />

Jen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually Jen... I've seen 2Long ... he does not "do mars" .... 2Long IS Mars!

He's a m_a_n ... and they are from Mars ... except 2Long, he eats and sleeps mars to the extent that he has actually become the planet. It's amazing really.

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

2long, I want to chime in here to tell you that I very much understand you in the way that you choose to avoid the conflicts. And maybe they aren't "conflicts," per se. Maybe just issues, that bring up some kind of uncomfortable/negative energy in you.

I don't consider myself a conflict avoider, well, yes I do. I don't avoid to the degree that I have known others to do, but I think avoiding that which seems yucky is human nature.

Anyway, one of the things this whole infidelity business has taught me, is that the gray haze that I existed in BEFORE M crisis, is much much much worse than simply taking the deep breath, and "breaking the ice," as you call it.

Last night, a very sensative issue between H and I came up. It is an issue I felt strongly about resolving before he came home after our separation. I made overt references to this issue over the past several months, and he made little responses that seemed like what I wanted to hear. And we both cautiously avoided this subject for the past . . . 9 months. Last night, I did not avoid the conflict. I voiced my concern, and I stuck by my position on it. I held my ground in silence, giving H time to process what I had said, waiting for his response.

This is a subject he is very embarassed and ashamed about, hence my reason for the secrecy. Yet he became honest with himself, and then he became honest with me. At first, I didn't like what he said, because it did indicate that he hadn't been totally honest with me. He hadn't LIED, but he knew the intention of my words, but he justified/rationalized his behavior by using my own words in his head. "She didn't say I couldn't, just that she didn't support it. She said it was my decision to make."

And it's true. Each person in a M has decisions about their bahavior that they need to make. However, if it is something that HURTS the partner, that spouse should PROTECT that partner by POJAing the behavior. Using Radical Honesty. And it is scary. But it is my opinion, that until you are ready to put your own feelings/thoughts/fears out there for her, you really cannot expect to receive it back.

It is my opinion, 2long, that what holds you back in this is YOU. All you can control is you, lead by example. And the moral of my story, is that the gray haze is much more frightening and scary than the REAL DEAL. What my H told me last night hurt my feelings. For about 10 minutes. Then I felt HONORED that he trusted me with himself enough to 1)get real with himself, and 2)to share that real-ness with me.

I thanked him for being honest with me. And he thanked me for being a safe place to tell his truth, no matter how ugly he thought it was. I think it was much uglier to him before he told me about it, because after he told me about it, he decided to do something about it. He said that by telling me, sharing with me, it helped him realize that it is not something he wants in his life anymore. And we took care of it together, as a team, last night.

And today, I know he is my very most bestest friend in the entire world. And I love him and respect him.

I know the fear of the unknown is scary. I am here to tell you, though, that living in the gray is NOTHING compared to living in true color.

Spidey

SS,

That's a truly insightful post. I like the "living in grey" vs "living in color". It sure feels much safer if both partners in the marriage are committed to this, but.....

I think 2L can start it this way...2L, you've said that your wife is also a CA. So since you share that in common, I'm sure you've discussed it haven't you? If not, how about letting that be the 1st discussion on CA.

With humor of course so it makes the conversation fun & interesting. If I thought it would help I would send you the rules SH gave H & I when we first learned to have these type discussions. He actually had us get out the rules and read them aloud before we began the discussion (this was until we had committed them to our soul) - still hasn't happened, so we review them when we sit down to have the major discussions.

In fact, we need to do this before we have our next "car buying" discussion!!! (See, I teach what I need most to learn!!).

But since your wife is irritated by anything MB - of course you can't sit down and pull out some MB rules - heh,heh!

But why not open a light hearted discussion on the merits or lack of being a CA couple?

<small>[ January 16, 2005, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: CSue ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It sure feels much safer if both partners in the marriage are committed to this, but..... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, I understand that it must work both ways, but SOMEone has to go first. SOMEone has to stick it all out there, and see what happens. And it's not always bad. I do know that before my H would open up to me, I had to do it first. I finally got to the point where I would rather have it all out on the table, where I could see it, if only for ME, than to continue to live in half-truthes and shadows ~ not really sure where I was at in relationship to everything around me.

Which goes back to your earlier post that I like very much: "I believe no one makes changes in their life until the pain of staying the same become worse than the fear of pain caused by the change."

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> Spidey <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Cool! Responses!

I have 2 run and mud some more walls, but I'll come back after I've cogitated on the thoughts here!

I love this: A reporter, talking about the ESA Huygens science team's success at Titan, called then "Huygens' Heros" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Rookev:

I've been thinking a lot about what you posted. Still not sure how 2 respond. Just that I can "see" some of your logic here, and I'm trying 2 make sure that I'm not just rationalizing this as some sort of CA excuse, but Penny did tell me that I shouldn't be so in a hurry 2 have "R discussions" all the time, like I felt I needed 2 2 overcome my CA at the time we had that convo. I feel like I need 2 compensate by forcefully having R-talks, but I shouldn't. It's obsessing. It's because of the obsessing about the A or contact or whatever that I feel like I've got 2 push something over. When I get like that, I don't listen very well, and I'm sure I'm not fun 2 be around. I'm never an overt jerk, mind you, but I could be a lot more "useful" than I am when I'm like that.

As for how you'll feel in 2 more years? Well, I can't say. I've had some incredible highs over the past 3 years. Amazingly, the first and perhaps highest of the bunch was for a 2 or 3 month period after I fell apart in July 2002, and had 2 go on prozac for a month and a half.

I still have periods when I obsess about things I believe I haven't been told, but can figure out from what I read in the emails and things WE did and said after d-day. But you're right. I could get details, but they might trigger more worries, or she could give me "hurt bones" 2 make me believe she's opening her soul or something.

I want 2 avoid the artificial recovery stuff. Like me forcing her 2 agree 2 NC. Or forcing her 2 coach with my coach.

Don't worry, though. I'll never get complacent such that another A could happen without a decisive response from my end. I won't go through this particular growth program again, though I wouldn't trade the painful lessons I've learned for a soft life again either. That can never be.

Gadzooks. How did this end up sounding like a depressing post. It wasn't supposed 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-ol' 2long

Okay, SS and CSue. Now I have 2 go cogitate on your posts!

...2morrow is my 3yr anniversary. Yecch.

-ol' 2long

2long, a quick * nod* from me. I have been a CA for all of our M, (oddly, only in our M not in wider life) and I feel that I fear that 'patience' is an excuse for 'CA so I can 'interrogate' Squid in overcompensation sometimes.

Overall though the balance isn't too wrong, we're making fine progress and every topic heading we have to discuss has been opened and discussions initiated at least.

I dunno if I'll wait 3 years to get some of the answers I need, but I just might I guess. Squid and I hopefully have another forty years together, whats 3 years of patience compared to that ?

be at ease mate.

2 "celebrate" my 3-yr anniversary, I looked at the phone bill from December. Couldn't figure it out for a bit, because it onlyl listed our house number, but my W had said that she'd put the cells on the same bill. But there it was, her cell records. During the critical time (first week of Dec is OM's b-day somewhere), there were no calls 2 or from NM. Heck, for that matter, there don't appear 2 have been any since August, which I know about.

Doesn't mean that emailing isn't going on still, but somehow I don't think so.

-ol' 2long

Yo ol' 2long. I was gone last week and haven't read this thread all the way thru but wanted to weigh in on the 6000 post "goal."

Beat ya, bud. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

I silently stopped participating in this forum for about 8 months in '03. It was an experiment to see how staying away would help me "stay away" from any thoughts about It.

Didn't work.

When I re-started my participation I found that the reinforcement I got vicariously thru others here (for my prior actions and decisions) was worth my time spent here and helped me more to gradually get to a fuller recovery than doing it cold turkey over time. And , of course, there's a good feeling to be had by helping others via what I learned. Sorta like giving blood.

But I frequently consider ending my participation here, hoping that the time has come to break free entirely. That day will come for me and should come for everyone - even you.

I think we'll both know it when that day gets here. Perhaps I should apply my new favorite Jimmy Buffett line: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Leap and the net will appear.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">-ol WAT

WAT said: </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I re-started my participation I found that the reinforcement I got vicariously thru others here (for my prior actions and decisions) was worth my time spent here and helped me more to gradually get to a fuller recovery than doing it cold turkey over time. And , of course, there's a good feeling to be had by helping others via what I learned. Sorta like giving blood.

But I frequently consider ending my participation here, hoping that the time has come to break free entirely. That day will come for me and should come for everyone - even you. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Interesting thought! I sometimes wonder how long I will "need" to be here VS "wanting" to be here. Weird I know, but thanks for your thoughts Ol2 AND WAT!

2long, Hah! You are at 6002. You make me look like a piker.

Say, I think the Foreign Legion needs to do some recon in Belize. Never know what danger lurk.

T

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by 2long:
<strong> Rookev:

I've been thinking a lot about what you posted. Still not sure how 2 respond. Just that I can "see" some of your logic here, and I'm trying 2 make sure that I'm not just rationalizing this as some sort of CA excuse, but Penny did tell me that I shouldn't be so in a hurry 2 have "R discussions" all the time, like I felt I needed 2 2 overcome my CA at the time we had that convo. I feel like I need 2 compensate by forcefully having R-talks, but I shouldn't. It's obsessing. It's because of the obsessing about the A or contact or whatever that I feel like I've got 2 push something over. When I get like that, I don't listen very well, and I'm sure I'm not fun 2 be around. I'm never an overt jerk, mind you, but I could be a lot more "useful" than I am when I'm like that.

As for how you'll feel in 2 more years? Well, I can't say. I've had some incredible highs over the past 3 years. Amazingly, the first and perhaps highest of the bunch was for a 2 or 3 month period after I fell apart in July 2002, and had 2 go on prozac for a month and a half.

I still have periods when I obsess about things I believe I haven't been told, but can figure out from what I read in the emails and things WE did and said after d-day. But you're right. I could get details, but they might trigger more worries, or she could give me "hurt bones" 2 make me believe she's opening her soul or something.

I want 2 avoid the artificial recovery stuff. Like me forcing her 2 agree 2 NC. Or forcing her 2 coach with my coach.

Don't worry, though. I'll never get complacent such that another A could happen without a decisive response from my end. I won't go through this particular growth program again, though I wouldn't trade the painful lessons I've learned for a soft life again either. That can never be.

Gadzooks. How did this end up sounding like a depressing post. It wasn't supposed 2! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

-ol' 2long </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is Rookev the one who got your 6000th post? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

What's the prize? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

L.

Spide and CSue:

Maybe what I'm "waiting for" is the oppor2nity. We are still so busy with our house and preparing for our D's wedding that there isn't all that much time 2 carve out for any deep discussions.

That's not saying that we don't have them. We do. I must just not rank them very high if they're not related somehow 2 recovering from the A.

We also do a lot 2gether, so we're spending time 2gether, some of it even good quality stuff.

I definitely show her by example what I believe in. But I realize I always have, just that for so many years she couldn't see it or she construed it as something manipulative on my part - which shows 2 go you, yet again, that there is no reasoning with a WS in the fog.

I think my W is definitely a FWS. But she's still opinionated, strong-willed, and quick 2 anger (in reaction 2 something or someone who disagrees with her when it's inconvenient). She's also sweet, compassionate, and outgoing. I just don't always know which one I'm dealing with at a given moment.

Last night, I got home and wanted 2 talk. She was watching some discussion about Iraq on the 2be. When I came in from getting something 2 drink and started 2 say something, she said "I'm ac2ally trying 2 listent 2 this." I 2k it wrong, and calmly said "okay" and left, closing the door behind me. Went out in the living room and had all kinds of "thoughts". Good stuff mostly, but I couldn't completely quell the obsessive stuff. When she came out about a half hour later, she was surprised I was sitting in the dark in the living room. She thought I'd gone outside with my scope or something. I was quite comfy, and even dozed off for a few minutes.

But it made me realize how delicate recovery truly is. Here I was worrying that she was being deliberately insensitive, and she was probably thinking the same thing about me.

I know. That's the stuff we should TALK about.

-ol' 2long

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I know. That's the stuff we should TALK about. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's what I was going to say! IMVHO, that was a PERFECT time to get to know one another better. For you to say why you had gone into the dark living room, and what you were thinking. Then, if she didn't say anything, perhaps tell her your interpretation of HER behavior, and see what she says about that.

It is perfectly wonderful to find out why people do what they do. Her defensiveness sounds to me like a "bad" habit. A learned bahavior, possibly from a deep-seated belief that she is not smart, not worthy, not taken seriously.

It is always something that nobody believes but the person with the behavior. My H gets defensive about things he is embarassed or ashamed about. "The best defense is a terrific offense" kind of thing [saw that quote on Cold Case, and really like it].

Anyway, keep keeping on!

Spidey

oops

<small>[ January 21, 2005, 12:43 AM: Message edited by: 2long ]</small>