Beating up her OM is fruitless because if it's not him, it's going to be another. After all there is no shortage of weasels and scoundrels in this world that would prey on a vulnerable married woman and trying to beat everyone of them up will not get your WW back. OM exists only because SHE chose to give him access to her body and soul. As soon as she ends her A for good, OM ceases to exist. Concentrate on yourself and your relationship with your WW, and if all goes well, OM will be history.

Hi - well, my wife tried the open marriage argument early on, and then did it anyway without my consent. See profile below. We are getting divorced now, but my wife was truly set on it, while yours appears not to be. So I see some hope there.

Steve Harley's opinion was that "open marriage" is a rejection not only of marriage, but of love itself. (My interpretation of what he said.)

If you agree to this, in writing or otherwise, that could be legally condoning her adultery and thereby impact a future divorce proceeding. I think that would be the case in my state, so I recommend you check it out for your state.

Tell her she can have all the "open" stuff she wants after you guys divorce. She can cat around town drinking, carousing, sleeping with whatever, whoever, whenever she wants.

Threesomes, orgies, bondage, anal, same sex, anything and everything she wants to do or try. AFTER THE DIVORCE!

(At this point, I would give up on her (she seems too corrupt) and already have the divorce papers right there for her to sign after the discussion but that is just me and I do not think her heart will change any toward this sex stuff and hurting you)

Do not get a D or start filing. If Steve says something about it, then ok, but I seriously doubt he's going to say that at this juncture. This is not the first post on MB about a WS asking for an open marriage, and I'll lay good money it will not be the last.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She is wanting me to go out there and play as well. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Of course she does, it helps her justify her actions.

What you need to focus on is how YOU can provide the things that the A did within your M. My H tried to pull (although not in an A situation) the "marriage on hold" thing. You must not give in to this. First, it will eventually cause her to wonder how much you care that you would let her have sex with other people. Second, she will start to wonder if you agreed so that you could. This is inviting insecurity and distrust into your marriage, and this is not a point in time to do that.

No mailman, neighbor, co-worker, chippendale...whatever. No, not now, not tomorrow, not 3 weeks from now....No no no no no.

"This is not something to which I can enthusiastically agree."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I said ok. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Where's no contact? Withdrawal will last longer if the contact continues.

Mike C2 has recommended Jenn, whom I talk to. I recommend her highly, as well. GREAT person, Jenn.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Ask her: "You know, babe, I've been thinking of the same thing. I've got this really hot friend who wants to show me some new moves that will blow your mind. She is really into this 'open marriage' concept and it's NOW very convenient that you are here asking me the same thing... So, what do you think - would you have any problems with me showing you some new and groovy things she's going to teach me???"
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No no no no no no no no no F NO! This is dishonest, manipulative, will bring distrust and insecurity into the picture...I can't think of a worse LB. You want to increase your Love Bank balance, not spend it all in one incredibly ill-thought statement. It violates almost every Harley policy I can think of...and then some.

<small>[ September 23, 2002, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: Takola ]</small>

Had another good discussion with W last night. We have been expecially close the last 2 days. She says that she loves me and wants our marriage in the long run. The problem inside her heart is the feeling that she never got to date much. I was her first boyfriend and her first everything. She feels that she wants to casually date to see what else is out there. This is to prove to herself how special I am. So I ask myself what do I do? Do I sit here tell her that I don't approve of her actions but they are her choices to make. She states that she loves me most but this being curious has ahold of her. I have seen where husbands sit and wait for this stuff to blow over and they often reap great benefits. So my choices at this point are:

Stay where we are stand by her side with a tough love type standpoint.

Seperate from her and sell the house let her have her space.

Divorce her and tell her to kiss my _____

I actually am leaning towards staying and standing by her side. I know her very well and think this will blow over. At home she is very pleasant to be around, she is trying harder to meet my needs etc... What do you thinK?

I think that you need to be Radically Honest (which is NOT - I repeat NOT - an excuse to LB. You state the truth w/o LBs) and set your boundries. When is your next appt with Steve?

What do you mean by I need to be radically honest? What should I say or do.

Have you not read the "Basic Concepts"? The Policy of Radical Honesty is one of the Basic Concepts, and you can read about it by clicking on "Concepts" at the top of this page, and then selecting "Policy of Radical Honesty".

I've given you an example of Radical Honesty, "This is not something to which I can enthusiastically agree." What else do you need to be honest about, and I will try to help you in phrasing it honestly while avoiding LBs.

Radical honesty in this case in not buying into "fog induced selfish behavior it's all about poor me and what I want and missed out on babble" that is in total disrespect of marrital vows and truly loving someone....but it is not buying into it by attacking and criticising her...

If what you desire with this person is a one on one santified union in which the both of you respect eachother and cherish one another...there is no way to give any stamp of approval to what she wants...

You need to keep telling her showing her in a loving way that what she is looking for is an empty void...that what she wants can be created by the two of you..but it takes two working together NOT dating other people...

The largest purpose of dating others is to find a mate to marry...she is married...

You can't go back...none of us can...her thinking that dating others will prove how special you are is illogical...people are special to us based on our own actions and feelings towards them...and time and energy spent on others robs you and her of exactly that of which she seeks....

boundaries should be no different than as if someone is in an affair...it is unnacceptable...and condoning any of it is gross disrepect...to YOU...does she really expect you to wait at home while some guy takes her out to dinner...and in all honesty she would be using the people she dated....using them to make her feel good and beautiful...and a free meal...all based on making her feel good...pretty selfish and pretty unkind to the poor sucker who takes her out....

It may sound rational when she says it..but it is not...it is the complete and exact opposite of all that makes marriages noble and special...
You need to stick to what you believe in...a union between you two alone...and keep moving yourself...towards that...

Keep telling her that because you love her you could never accept her dating someone else...you couldn't could you??? Don't sell your beliefs because of hers...don't do that...she will lose respect for you in the end as well as what damage it will do for your inner self...radical honesty is telling her how bad it would hurt you...how horrible it would make you feel...how damaging it would be and that the most likely outcome is that you marriage would not survive...so that her reason for doing it..is doomed to fail...
peace to you and your home
ARK

No I really don't think I could accept her dating someone else. But as Steve Harley says I am not going to tell her no. I am going to let her make the decision and let her know the possible outcomes. The last time I was at home and I felt like she might be on a date I just about lost my bloody mind.

You don't tell her "no" as in she can't. You don't have the authority to dictate what she can and cannot do. What you tell her is your feelings on the matter - the truth. "I can't agree to this" and "it would hurt me terribly and I feel it would hurt our marriage" are expressions of how YOU feel, not what she can't do. Understand? Radical Honesty keeps the focus on you.

Dear Fireman1

I am female BS who also suggested to her H the idea of an open marriage. I think it is a safe bet that your W never got over your A`s. This feels like a sham marriage to her and that`s why she is doing what she is doing. I never had PA or an EA of my own but that`s only because I didn`t have the opportunity to before I came to my senses.

If I remember correctly your W also brought up some performance issues. I don`t know if these are valid or it`s just her way of really sticking it to you but good.

You two are in a mess here but it is fixable. I think your wife`s "I need new experiences" excuse is just that, an excuse. I doubt it`s the real root of the problem. I figure she is not over your A`s.

My reasoning for an open marriage was if we were going to stay married and yet were not in love why not go out and get what we needed emotionally/sexually on the side without lies and sneaking around. We would be married on paper only. This is the reasoning of someone who does not want to be divorced but feels there is no hope of fixing the marriage either. You have to show her there`s hope. She needs to work through your A`s and you need to understand her reasons for what she`s up to.

Example of radical honesty:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You want me to date and have relationships with other women? I can't possibly do that. It hurt so much to have found out that you were with someone else, I couldn't possibly put you through that. I can't cause that kind of hurt to you.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If she responds back with "But it wouldn't hurt me. I want you to enjoy yourself." then you can just say, "I can't. I love you. I don't want to be with anyone else. And the thought of betraying my vows hurts me as much as the reality of what has happened hurts me.

Radical honesty is about communicating feelings instead of judgments. In this example, there is the reality of the pain you feel without any name calling, or labeling of the behavior/betrayal that she's done.

If she implies anything out of it, like judgment, remind her that you are only sharing your feelings about what she proposes.

Fireman, get you tactical advice from Steve. You will get the fuill range from family and friends and this board. Get experienced advice from a professional.

One thing I would not underestimate is the effect that this "playing around" will have on your future feelings for her. She might go off and have her flings for 6 months, reconcile with you, and you may find that you can't get past it. Then you waste a few years of your life in misery. Yes, I know that she wnet through it with your affairs. That doesn't make it fair, and it doesn't change how you may feel.

One thought I would have here, and you can check this out with Stweve....maybe you can safely channel some of your W's newfound sexual curiousity into your love life? Open the door to experimenting more, or maybe erotica....tie her up and spank her, that is what I would want to do anyway <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

It beats letting her go off with another guy. Just a thought....

Ok I need a little bit of feedback. Last night I found a book that my wife recently purchased called how to spark romance in a marriage. I was very pleasantly suprised! One LB I appear to be doing is wanting to talk to her too much about our current situation. She states that she feels smothered when I bring the situation up too much. I have agreed to not talk about the situation until this weekend. Why does she feel this way? Is it that she doesn't want to face reality?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fireman1:
Ok I need a little bit of feedback. Last night I found a book that my wife recently purchased called how to spark romance in a marriage. I was very pleasantly suprised!

Well, there you go. Channel your energy into that.

One LB I appear to be doing is wanting to talk to her too much about our current situation. She states that she feels smothered when I bring the situation up too much. I have agreed to not talk about the situation until this weekend. Why does she feel this way? Is it that she doesn't want to face reality?

It is a combination of things, guilt over the infidelity, not wanting to hurt you by being honest about her current (hopefully temporary, misguided) emotions, and the basic nature of emotional withdrawal. It is very common for spouses in withdrawal to not want to have relationship discussions, not just in affair situations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by fireman1:
<strong>... The last time I was at home and I felt like she might be on a date I just about lost my bloody mind.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Fireman,
I believe I may know how you feel. What your W is saying and doing does not sound good for your relationship & the marriage – yet you don’t know what to do to turn it around – unfortunately there is no easy, short cut answer – You have a big advantage in working with Steve – he would be the ultimate coach for you. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I still believe there are some mystical like forces working within your W – Compulsions if you, which I believe are causing some of this, which, IMHO would make traditional “marriage enrichment’ ideas difficult –
I concur with the advise you are getting that you cannot come out & directly say that she cannot do the dating thing – This kind of thing has been difficult for me to grasp. The idea is that you cannot like “demand” that she behave a certain way or not do certain things. This would give her a feeling of course that you are trying to control her, which would have the effect of driving her further away.
You have stated your feeling to her about this – if she chooses to go ahead and do these things, what are the consequences? This is the difficult part. In her state, it seems she is a lot more concerned about her needs, than yours – her “taker” has taken over. Although with your discovery of the book, sounds good!

I am confused as to how you guys are doing the “Radical Honesty” thing?” She shares a lot of her (negative) feelings about the OM and her desire to date around, which I understand, may help you to see where she is coming from. But I am confused that it seems she is not open about her plans or her whereabouts – like you said that you thought she was out on a date? What is that all about? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

In other words, it seems to me, something is not right here? She expresses her desires to meet new guys and all & You express your feelings that you don’t want that, so she chooses to go ahead and just not tell you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

This can be expected in a way – she is in a zone –no doubt about it – It seems she is highly motivated to do “her” thing & if she can openly talk about it & get your agreement that would fit her needs, but if you don’t approve, she simply does it behind you back – so where does that leave you?

I know that the idea is not to always just point the finger, but to get resolution -- just difficult -- You have to be nice & not LB, I am just concerned that you don't become like a doormat --lost in the process here?

I have assembled information on aspects of sexual compulsions if you are interested, both on the views of the compulsive one & the spouse. I can email to you if you are interested. Bhurrican@yahoo.com

I hope I have perhaps at least given you some validation on what I see from afar.

Best of Luck! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Peace be with you,
Bob

Bob,

She is really honest with me about her feelings etc... I said that I thought she was out on a date that night because one of her girlfirends came to get her at the house to go barhopping. She told me that OM was going to try to make it but it wasn't a sure thing. Once she arrived home at 4:30 am she told me right away that he had shown up. She told me that they had just had sex 30 minutes before. To me that is pretty honest. I haven't caught her lying to me recently. I have my eyes wide open though.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Why does she feel this way? Is it that she doesn't want to face reality? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree with Mike C2 on this (it's becoming too common, Mike, I think there's something wrong! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ). I would like to add that it is sometimes hard to straighten out your thoughts when the input (voices in about the situation) never stop. It is also frustrating to repeat the same things over and over 'cause you haven't figured it out yet.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by fireman1:
<strong>
... Once she arrived home at 4:30 am she told me right away that he had shown up. She told me that they had just had sex 30 minutes before. To me that is pretty honest. I haven't caught her lying to me recently. I have my eyes wide open though.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">{{{{ Fireman }}}}

So sorry! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Was this recent? Does Steve know of this incident? I guess she has no reason to be deceptive!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Do you guys have children?

I am not good at setting boundaries -- you need to take a stand. You cannot prevent her from doing what she wants-- but does she understand that if she does this, there is going to come a time where you are not going to be there for her.
I believe by most peoples standards, what she is doing would not be considered within the boundaries of a marriage! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
You have to draw a line somewhere, some how. This sounds to be progressing in the wrong direction ??? Where does this end. If this continues, will she have the nerve to bring this guy home or something?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
Are you seeing a counselor?
For most people this kind of open display would be very, a mean very, demoralising & I believe she is being very unrealistic & abusive to expect that you put up with this. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> Can you email me? I believe I have information that may help. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />
I don't mean to be judgemental, but I believe she is a sick person -- not a bad person, but sick, none the less. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

Prayers are with you!
Bob