I don't disagree with a thing Legato has said, however......

The WS has had their share of moments putting our (the BS's) imaginations into the worst spirals.

The crap they put us through pales by comparison for having just an itsy bit of fun at their expense.

It's empowering to know our actions can make a difference in their thinking.

This simple act could give a WS just enough doubt about a future with their BS to lift the fog a bit and give them a glimpse into reality.

Jealosy is a powerful emotion, and if it can be even slightly aroused in a WS, it gives them firsthand knowledge they DO love the BS, even if their actions don't show it.

Yes, it's a little game playing, but it can provide a much needed emotional relief from the incredible pressure a BS feels in trying to be the BEST BS ON EARTH FOR A WS.

In the whole scheme of things, IMHO, there's more to gain than to lose in a little charade or two, in the herculean effort to save ones marriage.

SD

<small>[ January 12, 2005, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

^^bump^^

I agree with SD here. My WW/STBXW heard I was flirting with someone one night and she flipped her lid. I just looked at her and reminded her that she has a BOYFRIEND and all I did was flirt!!!!!!

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> FOG FOG FOG FOG FOG FOG FOG <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Aparently what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Aparently what's good for the goose is not always good for the gander. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Following this logic, Alan and every other BS should have a revenge affair so as to really drive the lesson home.

No thanks; I'll stick with "Lead by example".

Legato,

I agree with you this a game, and it is not one I want to play.

The friend statement from me was fun, however, the moral high road is the one I want to be on.

I have no interset in an A of my own, not at all.

My WW did ask what I did last night and I was honest with her. She has no idea of how I was dressed or anything, she lives with her OM yet she did ask if I was seeing someone and I was honest.

I don't want to play games, yet yesterday was fun.

I know what I want, and I don't want to spend my time playing games with my WW.

She can play all she wants, my goal is simple fix my M and bring my family back together.

When my WW was jelous yesterday it did give me a feeling of satisfaction, it was fun, however I am aware of what my actions could do. I will not lie to my WW about anything, I don't have a reason to do so.

I want honesty from her, I will be honest as well.

Legato, you have givin me great advice in the past and I thank you for that.

My morals are intact and I am sticking with them. I love the high road as you get a better view of the world. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Everyone,

On the issue of the "gameplaying," I believe there is a delicate balance here. Legato is right...we must ALWAY take the high ground. We have to be PERFECT. It sucks, but that is the way it is. Any deviation by the BS from the high ground is used as an excuse and justification for what the WS is doing. So, all actions by the BS must be done with that in mind.

Even today, while we are in recovery, my wife says that I was no different than her, just because I was talking online with someone in a support group while she was out "doing her thing." Remember...perception is reality!!

But, that being said...let me ask a question here. Why do most BSs want to hear about the A and the details? Because we want the truth...we want the fantasies and nightmares going on in our heads to stop. Nothing they have done can equal what goes on in our heads, as our imagination runs amok. We want the truth and it drives us crazy until we get it.

And here comes the delicate balance...

In the case of the example that was posted before here, unless Alan normally wears cologne to work...then dont do it. Why? Because let's say WW's imagination runs amok. Then she asks, and you say that you were just going to work. She can ONLY conclude two things. First, he is lying and has something going on. Or second, he is playing games with her. Either way, it is a justification in Fogland for the WS's activities.

But, let's use a similar example, done the right way. Let's say Alan normally doesnt work nights. But he has decided to work this Friday night. Since they are separated, he does not need to tell his wife what is going on. Especially once he goes to Plan B. So if she hears from someone (or him) that he was out this last Friday night, well then the old imagination kicks in. And that imagination is a huge light shown in the fog.

Now, she will try to find out where he went, and maybe she will. But Alan just remains silent about it. Eventually, it will come up...ESPECIALLY during recovery!! My wife had a whole list of things she wanted to know when we were starting recovery. We went into the counselor and spent awhile with her saking "well, what about this time you werent home...blah, blah, blah." It actually brought a smile to my face because then I knew that she had been jealous all along and had been thinking about me.

But, the main point of this is that once confronted with the truth, she cant turn it any other way. In the example here, when she eventaully finds out Alan went to work on Friday night (and he can prove it with his pay stub), then he is still on the moral high ground. And he gets some of the effect that you get with the game playing.

So, I say...dont play games. Be true and honest always. But...nothing says that the WS needs to know EVERYTHING. And nothing says that BS has to release ALL information about their life. Sometimes, the way it is released may give a different impression than what is the truth.

So, that's my take. A delicate balance.

In His arms.

Just adding to the confusion <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

If Alan's WW has indicated in the past that she'd LIKE IT if Alan took more care with grooming himself and that he would do things to make him more attractive (AKA wear after-shave) ... if Alan does that NOW it is simply meeting an EN.

Pep

I agree that I don't want to play games with my WW.

My last conversation with her went this way, she asked what I was doing last night and I was honest about it. I went to work that is all.

She asked me about another woman, she asked if I was going on a date and again I was honest.

This did open up an interesting conversation as she said she was glad I didn't go on a date as we had said long ago we sould not date while we are going through this!

This allowed me to ask a question about her actions with her OM. I asked if she considered what she was doing dating?

She said no, that I don't understand her, and I told her I did understand, and I understand very well. You are in an R with another man, you made a choice to date you are still doing it. You don't really have a right to question me about my intentions in this area, yet I will always be honest with you.

I am not going to date as I am married to you. My life is with you our family is about you and I and the kids. Untill you decied what you are doing, no dates for me. I will not be a part of an A. I will not lie to you about what I am doing.

She came clean on a few things about her OM. She had lied to me many times, said she was with girl friends of hers and so on, but told me the truth today. She said she was sorry for all the lies and she even said her actions have proven over the past year I should not trust her.

I listened while she came as clean as she could and I didn't push for anything else. I said thanks for the truth, it is amazing to hear this from you.

She is off looking for an apartment today, as she is moving out from her OM place or so she say's and she wants to know what I am going to do six months from now when I realize that she is realy on her own and not with her OM.

I told her I will be waiting for my W to come home to our family. I think she was about as honest with me as she has been in a year. She still said she is unable to jump back into this and perhaps time alone will help her as she has been a poor wife to me and she is sorry for all she has done.

I don't understand what is going on, yet the honesty was nice, and I am not sure what to do next.

For the record, I did not suggest doing anything out of the realm of normal, decent behavior. I do not agree with Better Man, Better Off, that flirting is an appropriate behavior.

And I am not suggesting a full blown, scripted, complex ploy to deceive the WS in a covert manner.

I am suggesting that a slight change of one's normal appearance (dressing up a bit), and a tad bit extra after shave, and being less than overt in letting a WS know the you are, indeed, going to work, unless she asks, will put her in touch with feelings she's abandoned, in order to continue the affair.

As I said, jealousy is a powerful emotion, and if the WS has just one unfogged thought that the WS may actually LOSE the BS because of the WS's actions, it may cast doubt on her committment to the A.

I'm not certain how this departs all that much from "the 180's principle" mention in posts here all the time.

I'm not talking about lying, I'm talking about creating a simple illusion, in hopes the WS gets an Unfogged peek at what the future may bring if they don't reconsider their current path.

I've seen this same ploy posted by several of the people here that I consider far more experienced and wiser than myself, and only passed it along as a tool that might be helpful.

As with all advice rendered here, I'd refer everyone back to the MapQuest disclaimer. "...it's a good idea to do a reality check and make sure the road still exists, watch out for construction, and follow all traffic safety precautions. This is only to be used as an aid....." Information dispensed may not be right, nor right for everyone. Take whats good for you and use it, disregard the rest.

Best wishes,
SD

<small>[ January 13, 2005, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: shattered dreams ]</small>

SD, i do agree with what you said, and I did understand where you were comming from.

I did like the illusion I created and something came of it. What it is I am not sure, but we will see.

alank

First of all, I would never post anything to anyone that I would not consider the "high road".

I am glad the "incident" led you to an honest and open conversation with your W. This, in my humble opinion, is huge.

If your W feels safe with you, she will open up to you. If she does not feel safe, you will have ZERO conversations with her that will bring progress.

Her opening up to you says two things:

1. I'm beginning to feel safe with you.

2. I am not sure where you and I might be going, but where I've been has not been helpful to our marriage.

You have reached the point where you are able to say the "right stuff" at the right times. It's a bit Zen like, and you'll feel comfortable there. Stay on course, and be ever so sensitive and patient. The marriage you save may be your own! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Best wishes
SD

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by shattered dreams:


I am suggesting that a slight change of one's normal appearance (dressing up a bit), and a tad bit extra after shave, and being less than overt in letting a WS know the you are, indeed, going to work, unless she asks, will put her in touch with feelings she's abandoned, in order to continue the affair.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For me, this is a no-brainer... this is a part of Plan A ... looking and smelling great. Also goes along with exercise, good nutrition... etc.

It will help you chase some of the blues away knowing you look and smell and feel good.

Pep

SD, at no time did I think you were telling me anything but good advice. I was on the high road and I still am. I loved the ideas you gave me yesterday, and I did nothing dishonest with them, nor would I.

I never thought you were asking me to change my morals in anyway.

I had a bit of fun with my WW and something, I am still not sure what came of it.

I thank you for the advice.

SD, at no time did I think you were telling me anything but good advice. I was on the high road and I still am. I loved the ideas you gave me yesterday, and I did nothing dishonest with them, nor would I.

I never thought you were asking me to change my morals in anyway.

I had a bit of fun with my WW and something, I am still not sure what came of it.

I thank you for the advice.

We should probably start a new thread here on
on the pros and cons of
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> creating a simple illusion, </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">rather than threadjack this one ... but,

There is a book, "The Passion Paradox" that cleared all of this up for me. I've posted on some other threads regarding the essential truths that I discovered in this book. I'm not going to repeat the ideas here but feel free to search for those posts.

For me, simply put, illusion bad - reality good.

Legato,

Where do you think I may have crossed the line in what I did?

I do like the advice you have shared with my and I respect you're opinion.

Can you start a new thread with perhaps you're thoufgts on illusion vrs reality?

I would love to hear you're thoughts.

Alan,

Sorry I just now saw your post.

I don't think you crossed any line.

I was addressing the idea of "creating a simple illusion" as in trying to mislead WW into worrying that there was someone else. You have not done that. Your wife asked you about the lady from your work and your answer was truthful and in fact, brilliant!

In the book I referred to, the author discusses drawing away slightly from the significant other in order to do two things:

1. Make you feel better about yourself as in less needy and
2. Make yourself seem more attractive and even sometimes a bit mysterious, as in, it gets them thinking, "I don't know what it is about him/her, but something seems different."

The drawing away slightly is not a game. In fact you can even tell the other person, "because I need to take care of myself I am going to distance myself a bit; start doing some activities on my own. I think this will be good for me and us."

No, I think you're doing great; that's why I nominated you for "Most Improved Marriage Builder". <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

As regards illusion vs. reality, as far as I'm concerned, WSs need more reality and definitely much much less illusion.

...

"Anything that's not a mystery is merely guesswork." - Captain Beefheart

Thanks Legato. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

You're welcome.

It gets confusing on this board sometimes. By the time I get my post typed in, the post that I was responding to is 3 pages back.