Chris,

When you try to convince me that divorce isn't a failure is one way you are telling me how to feel.

I've exposed, I've done my best to eliminate LB's, I've plan A'ed my butt off, and with the exception of dialog about exchanging, YD, I've done a pretty good plan B.

But not good enough to show WW that marriage with me is more attractive than her relationship with MM (or maybe a FMM now, I dunno.)

Maybe I will be a success, but I don't feel it right now, and I certainly don't see it either.

So I feel like MB failed me or I failed at MB. I feel like a failure no matter how you slice it.

So please don't try to convince me that I shouldn't categorize this as a failure if I end up divorced. It's how I feel about the situation.

TB

What did I fail to do at plan A?

Well, I probably still don't know all my LB's and I've had to guess at WW's emotional needs since she wouldn't fill out a questionare.

SH put me on the "trial and error" plan for meeting emotional needs. His advice was to try different things and see what sort of reaction they got. Everything I tried was rejected, and I ran out of ideas.

Exposure was pretty good, WW's parents know, our pastor knows, her co-workers (who I think helped out with the affair anyway) know. I also traded notes with OM's wife, so she also knew.

Plan B, we don't talk about anything but YD. Plan B has been great for her, she doesn't feel any pressure because I'm trying to meet her needs.

I wrote her that I loved her, married her for life, but could not maintain a relationship with her while she was with the OM, and to not contact me about anything other than YD. I had to give her my state's standard CS, which with my salary is almost enough for her to live without working, albeit not like a queen.

So it seems to me plan B was what she wanted and just makes it easier for her to continue the divorce.

So I've failed, she doesn't miss me, or my support, and after 16 months, the A is still going on, not to mention the divorce has been ongoing for at least 11-12 months.

So I've failed to win her back using MB principles, therefore, I feel like I've failed her, YD and myself.

TB

I'm kind of surprise at some of these posts.

Let's do a reality check...if the marriage is destined to fail...for whatever reason...MB...an act of Congress, wish upon wish, hope beyond hope...isn't going to save it.

It's nearly impossible to salvage a marriage if both partners aren truly interested in doing so.

I could have repeated every Plan in the book, if my H didn't want the M... he wouldn't be here...period.

That being said..I'm still going with ..YES...MB has given me a stronger better M. I've learned TONS...and will never be blindsided again.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by betrayedinjersey:
<strong> I'm kind of surprise at some of these posts.

Let's do a reality check...if the marriage is destined to fail...for whatever reason...MB...an act of Congress, wish upon wish, hope beyond hope...isn't going to save it.

It's nearly impossible to salvage a marriage if both partners aren truly interested in doing so.

I could have repeated every Plan in the book, if my H didn't want the M... he wouldn't be here...period.

That being said..I'm still going with ..YES...MB has given me a stronger better M. I've learned TONS...and will never be blindsided again. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So are you saying I should feel like a failure at my goal of being more appealing to WW than OM, thus giving her some reason to want to join me in building a better marriage.

Somehow, her lack of desire to work on the marriage really doesn't make me feel any better. In fact, it makes me feel worse.

TB

When you try to convince me that divorce isn't a failure
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I never tried to convince you of that at all.
In fact, I did write, "Yes it will be a failure of the marriage but not (necessarily) a failure of MB."

But not good enough to show WW that marriage with me is more attractive than her relationship with MM
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Where did you read this about MB principles? That is NOT what Plan A/B is supposed to do.
In fact, I believe it's somewhere here that is exactly what you are NOT supposed to try & do.

Maybe I will be a success, but I don't feel it right now, and I certainly don't see it either.
I didn't say you should feel like a success or failure. Just that you may or may not be a success.
A guy runs a race, comes across the finish line first and then immediately gets hit by a car, was his race a success or a failure?

We are talking about two things here.
1 - Your marriage.
2 - Your use of MB principles.
You keep interchanging them when they are different things.

So I've failed to win her back using MB principles, therefore, I feel like I've failed her, YD and myself.
Which is it?
1 - You failed her, YD and yourself
2 - You failed to use MB properly?
Yes, you could have failed at both BUT just because you end up divorced does not mean you failed at using MB principles.

Nowhere on this site is there any kind of a guarantee that the marriage will survive even if you do MB principles 100% correctly (successfully).

Let me ask.
Would you ever refer anybody to Marriage Builders to help save their marriage?
Why/why not?

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

Originally posted by javaSansContour:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So are you saying I should feel like a failure at my goal of being more appealing to WW than OM,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why was this your goal? Where did you get this from?

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Chris -CA123 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> When you try to convince me that divorce isn't a failure
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> I never tried to convince you of that at all.
In fact, I did write, "Yes it will be a failure of the marriage but not (necessarily) a failure of MB."

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I applied MB principles and if the marriage failed, the MB failed to save my marriage.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:
<strong>

But not good enough to show WW that marriage with me is more attractive than her relationship with MM
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Where did you read this about MB principles? That is NOT what Plan A/B is supposed to do.
In fact, I believe it's somewhere here that is exactly what you are NOT supposed to try & do.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That seems to go counter with what SH told me, he said the goal is to make her doubt her decision to date the OM and to present me and building the marriage as more attractive than leaving it for OM.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:
<strong>
Maybe I will be a success, but I don't feel it right now, and I certainly don't see it either.
I didn't say you should feel like a success or failure. Just that you may or may not be a success.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I applied MB and it failed then, are you happy? Why are you picking nits here?
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:
<strong>

We are talking about two things here.
1 - Your marriage.
2 - Your use of MB principles.
You keep interchanging them when they are different things.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, they are one in the same, I applied MB and it has not saved my marriage, nor do I feel I've lost my love for WW.

Call it what you will MB failed me or I failed at MB, it hasn't worked for me as of yet.

Now, we are not yet divorced, so it could be a big success. But it doesn't appear to be successful at this time.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:
<strong>

So I've failed to win her back using MB principles, therefore, I feel like I've failed her, YD and myself.
Which is it?
1 - You failed her, YD and yourself
2 - You failed to use MB properly?
Yes, you could have failed at both BUT just because you end up divorced does not mean you failed at using MB principles.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes it does. Either I was unable to do MB properly or MB didn't work for me. Either way, it failed for me. If the princples are too difficult to impliment, then they have no possibility of success.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:
<strong>
Nowhere on this site is there any kind of a guarantee that the marriage will survive even if you do MB principles 100% correctly (successfully).

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I never said it did, the question is how many have been successful. I'm saying it doesn't seem to work for me and my marriage.

I didn't say I expected 100% success rate, but it still seems to be failing me.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:
<strong>

Let me ask.
Would you ever refer anybody to Marriage Builders to help save their marriage?
Why/why not? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, because it didn't work for me. I spent a lot of money with SH, on the books, etc. So today, I WOULD NOT recommend MB or counselling the SH to anyone.

TB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris -CA123:
<strong> Originally posted by javaSansContour:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So are you saying I should feel like a failure at my goal of being more appealing to WW than OM,</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why was this your goal? Where did you get this from? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See above, I got it from SH.

Besides, isn't that the goal of meeting your S's EN as well as eliminating LB's from your behavior?

LB's destroy love, they make you less attractive (looking at the holistic person) so to eliminate them make your more attractive.

The goal of meeting your S's emotional needs is to provide an attractive alternative of having the OM meet her EN's

So when I say become more attractive than OM, I mean more than just PA, I mean the entire package.

TB

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 06:41 PM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

If one partner doesn't want to save the marriage or has given up and shut down your success rate is 0%. Face the facts some people just throw in the towel.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by MarkNY:
<strong> If one partner doesn't want to save the marriage or has given up and shut down your success rate is 0%. Face the facts some people just throw in the towel. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agreed, and my attempts to use MB principles to entice such a partner to leave the OM and rebuild the marriage have failed.

So MB didn't work for me.

That still doesn't mean I did it 100% correct, it just means my attempt at using MB failed, so I cannot in good faith recommend it given my experience.

TB

A divorce is not (necessarily) a failure at using MB. (whether you think it is or not. Some people think all Steelers fans are idiots, but that doesn't (necessarily) mean they are.)

Some people will still feel like crap when this stuff doesn't help their marriage.

Maybe we are just playing semantics here.
According to you, if someone uses MB properly and they divorce, then MB is a failure, correct?

"MB failed" is an incomplete sentence.
"MB failed to save my marriage" is a complete sentence.

Well, I applied MB principles and if the marriage failed, the MB failed to save my marriage.
Okay, I'll buy that "MB failed to save (your) marriage."

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally Posted By Chris -CA123:
We are talking about two things here.
1 - Your marriage.
2 - Your use of MB principles.
You keep interchanging them when they are different things.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Nope, they are one in the same,
Huh? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> They are the same thing?
How about a garden is your marriage and a bucket of water is MB principles. They go together but they are NOT the same thing.

So today, I WOULD NOT recommend MB or counselling the SH to anyone.
Did you learn anything useful?

Actually, I believe a Plan A is to make yourself more attractive than the OP. Our MC said the same, she drew diagrams on a whiteboard. One was my H's lovebank which at that stage was pretty empty and one was the OM's lovebank which was full. She told my H, you have to make your lovebank overtake the OM's lovebank - which he did with stellar results.

Plan B would also have worked on me. If my H had left it to the OM to fill all my needs while at the same time not filling any, but leaving me with the lasting impression of how much he loved me, cared for me, cared for our marriage, there is no way the OM would have been able to fill my needs.

Just my 2c from a FWW who is in a totally recovered marriage.


Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's nearly impossible to salvage a marriage if both partners aren truly interested in doing so. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And if both partners are truly interested in salvaging the marriage, they can, with or without MB.

You can't have it both ways - MB can not take credit for marriages saved while claiming it still "worked" when the marriage ended in divorce.

I would also not recommend MB to anyone who was interested in saving his or her marriage. Much of it is not harmful, but often pretty obvious - it is not rocket science that it is a good idea to spend time with your spouse for instance. There are some repercussions of Plan A and Plan B that I believe are truly harmful, not only to the prospect of saving the marriage but also to the self-esteem and financial well-being of the BS. In retrospect, I suspect I would have been better off had I never stumbled upon this site 6 years ago.

<small>[ January 28, 2005, 11:45 PM: Message edited by: Nellie2 ]</small>

Nellie, did you recover your marriage without MB guidance ? Or did strict adherence to its principles make things worse for you ?

Always interesting to hear differing opinions.

Chris,

This site is Marriage Builders, right?

So if my marriage ends up in divorce, then from MY perspective, MB failed.

So in my situation the failure of my marriage = the failure of MB principles.

They are one in the same.

I never said MB doesn't work for others, and I agree that folks should get many perspectives before choosing a course of action.

But it seems MB failed me and my marriage.

Now to be fair, did WW and I both do damage to it? Yeah, so perhaps it would be better to say that MB could not fix the damage done in our marriage.

Either way, it's still a failure for me.

TB

ps, you asked me if I learned anything, I've learned a lot, but mostly from other MB'ers here. SH told me a lot of vague things to do, but not enough to help me change my behaviors or to understand what my WW needed. Personally, I find most books and counsellors not very helpful. For example, My IC said when you find yourself in a situation where you are getting angry or in an argument, that you do what you do when you are driving, you look to where you want to go, so you picture a situation where you are not fighting, etc.

Well that's fine if you can realize what you are doing and get control of yourself, but how do you do that? How do you change 39 years of behavior so rapidly?

No one could ever answer that question. Heck, I still learn things about how people percieve what I say, and how they see me so differently than I see myself.

I was speaking with a friend about the Bible last night and she said I was tiring to talk to because I was so logical and methodical about what I said and believed. While she knew I wasn't trying to educate her or change her mind, she said she still felt that way.

Never got anything from SH to help me with that, so maybe my plan A didn't work because WW felt the same way.

WW said in one phone conversation that when we discussed something, she felt she couldn't be herself because my logic was so strong that she always felt wrong for having a different view or opinion.

Wow, I never said she was wrong, yet she felt that way. There was nothing I could find in MB to address that.

How do you protect someone from a mis-perception. Just because she felt intimidated, that in no way meant I was trying to intimidate her. Heck, until she said that, I had no way of even knowing she felt that way.

Nothing I found her addressed that.

Sorry, my ps is now longer than my original post <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

tb

<small>[ January 29, 2005, 08:02 AM: Message edited by: javaSansContour ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>.... SH told me a lot of vague things to do, but not enough to help me change my behaviors or to understand what my WW needed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just curious, what ethnic background are you ?. I am Asian when I go to doctor I want the expert tell me what is wrong with me and what to do about it. However the field of psychology is "White man middle class - Euro centric". You are on your own to make a decision ... don't ever expect a therapist to tell you exactly what to do. Another reason is law suit.

-rh-

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WW said in one phone conversation that when we discussed something, she felt she couldn't be herself because my logic was so strong that she always felt wrong for having a different view or opinion.

Wow, I never said she was wrong, yet she felt that way. There was nothing I could find in MB to address that.

How do you protect someone from a mis-perception. Just because she felt intimidated, that in no way meant I was trying to intimidate her. Heck, until she said that, I had no way of even knowing she felt that way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so common I'm amazed you didn't find anything to address it here. For 30 years I agreed with everything my H thought and said because I thought if I disagreed or had my own opinion he wouldn't "like" me any more. He was not in any way controlling, it was just the way I felt.

When it came up in MC he was amazed I felt that way. Our MC said to him "what would you have done if Jenny had disagreed with you." He said "I would have just thought she had her opinion and would have been fine with it."

It's classic conflict avoidance (on my part) and poor communication.

If you'd have asked anyone on this board (at the time this happened) you would have heard it from loads of people and probably been given wonderful advice.

I'm such an advocate of the MB principles, probably because without them and the people on this board, we would be divorced.

I've heard so many people say that even if their marriages do fail they have the tools to communicate better in new relationships and they'll address problems when they're tiny problems not mountains.

Jen

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by KiwiJ.:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">WW said in one phone conversation that when we discussed something, she felt she couldn't be herself because my logic was so strong that she always felt wrong for having a different view or opinion.

Wow, I never said she was wrong, yet she felt that way. There was nothing I could find in MB to address that.

How do you protect someone from a mis-perception. Just because she felt intimidated, that in no way meant I was trying to intimidate her. Heck, until she said that, I had no way of even knowing she felt that way.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is so common I'm amazed you didn't find anything to address it here. For 30 years I agreed with everything my H thought and said because I thought if I disagreed or had my own opinion he wouldn't "like" me any more. He was not in any way controlling, it was just the way I felt.

When it came up in MC he was amazed I felt that way. Our MC said to him "what would you have done if Jenny had disagreed with you." He said "I would have just thought she had her opinion and would have been fine with it."

It's classic conflict avoidance (on my part) and poor communication.

If you'd have asked anyone on this board (at the time this happened) you would have heard it from loads of people and probably been given wonderful advice.

I'm such an advocate of the MB principles, probably because without them and the people on this board, we would be divorced.

I've heard so many people say that even if their marriages do fail they have the tools to communicate better in new relationships and they'll address problems when they're tiny problems not mountains.

Jen </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think it may have worked if WW might have actually wanted to go to counselling. But since she was so against anything I was for except for a divorce that I really got no information on how to use this information.

She was (and still is) in the affair, and the only contact between us is to exchange YD.

I was given nothing to address such poor, and in my opinion unfounded image that my WW painted me with.

She too used the terms controlling when describing me yet your husband and I are probably on the same sheet of music, she wasn't wrong, just different.

Yet she FELT wrong.

How do you change behavior when you feel the other person is FEELING something because of what's inside them as much if not more than what you are doing?

I didn't find anything in MB that helped me address this. My WW felt, maybe still feels inferior to me. I mentioned to her a while back after she felt that I didn't love her or accept her that after she told me of her background, how she had two children out of wedlock before she met me, put one up for adoption, etc and I said to her that was all in the past, we can only live today, that I accepted her for who she is and wanted to be. I didn't understand how she could feel I didn't accept her.

I NEVER (and I use this word on purpose) brought up her past, never judged her about it, I accepted it. Yet she still felt unaccepted by me.

Perhaps she has issues to deal with.

MB never gave me anything to deal with this.

I felt like I was battling a perception rather than reality and for an ESTJ thinker like me, I believe it was an impossible fight.

I'm not without faults, I'm rigid and like to be right. We both withdrew in the relationship. I spent a lot of time on the internet and she would resent that. So when she called me on it, I started going to her first when I came home from work and when she essentially pushed me away, I'd go to message boards about my cars, etc.

I don't spend near the time on the net I once did. But even that potential LB nixed doesn't help.

So tell me, how do you convince WW that she is wrong about how I view her. Because she has also said that she feels that I'm always right. She sarcastically called me the Mr Perfect jSC, always have to be right.

Yet if I tell her she is wrong about how she feels, that I seldom feel perfect and often wonder what to do next, she will feel like I'm putting her down.

So what's a MB'er supposed to do?

TB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by redhat:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>.... SH told me a lot of vague things to do, but not enough to help me change my behaviors or to understand what my WW needed.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Just curious, what ethnic background are you ?. I am Asian when I go to doctor I want the expert tell me what is wrong with me and what to do about it. However the field of psychology is "White man middle class - Euro centric". You are on your own to make a decision ... don't ever expect a therapist to tell you exactly what to do. Another reason is law suit.

-rh- </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm about as white bread protestant as you can get. A mix of English and German. Paternal Grandparents (whom I've never met) were immigrants from Germany.

I think what is more salient is that I'm an ESTJ and I don't take a dump without a plan, LOL.

TB

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by javaSansContour:
<strong>I think what is more salient is that I'm an ESTJ and I don't take a dump without a plan, LOL.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Is that why MB failed to save mine to ? LOL!. I am ESTJ too <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> .

-rh-