alank!

I gotta jump in on this thread. I is tough to explain Plan B to a kid. My DD is 6 years going on 36 years, and yet, though she is mad at her "daddy," she is delighted when my WH walks in.

I wanted to commiserate with you. I have been doing well until tonight on sticking to my plan (leaving when he comes over, all contact limited to necessary, almost none initiated by me). Tonight, he came over to see DD. She came home sick from school with tummy ache and asked me not to leave. Stayed away but present for her if she needed me. All was fine. He said he wanted to talk about some financial and custody issues. Wanted to sit close to me to look at budget on computer. Tried pity card with me (AS IF!). All the time we are talking about splitting up our life!

AHHHH!

I said nothing that I regret. But I hate the pressure of the situation.
Tina

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Not sure if you'd call this 'wisdom' or something else but one of the reasons the WS don't file c/b due to the fact, they don't want to spend their $$ on the D.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Orchid, I can't argue with that, but I wonder... if there's that clarity there -- "yes, I want a divorce, but I'm not paying the bill." Then... what would prevent them from saying they want a divorce in the first place, rather than himhawing (is that a word?) around the subject?

Methinks in most cases, where there's not a lot of $/assets involved, it's more psychological than practical. But who knows?

Tired of the guessing games.....

Well, just got home from two days on the ski hill.

It was great <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Only thing is I came home to a wondefull letter from the WW.

She was able to fill me in on so much. I understand that all of our problems have been my fault <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Yet she has found new ways to blame me for everything. She has this way of letting me know what an a** I have been and if I could have been a better H, we would not have any problems now...Thanks hon, I am so glad you're OM has nothing to do with our problems..

I must say that was the best welcome home a person could ask for <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I guess I need to block my WW phone # on my cell.

She just left me a message I don't understand.

She called me sounding like a wounded animal, wondering why I never got her coffee on my way to work when we were together? Why didn't I wash her car why everything was about me?

Right now she is picking every thing she can out of the past to try and bring up? I am in plan B but she is doing everything she can to try and get to me. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I didn't go get her a coffee and bring it back b/c I was on my way to work, I could have done that but never thought to. I didn't wash her car as I thought she could do it when she wanted to, she was a sahm, and I never thought that was something she needed done <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

She is also upset that we would budget for birhtdays and christmas and we would decide not to get each other anything, make it about the kids, yet I always got her something, she is mad about that, I never wanted anything from her, I just always found a way to get her something.

She is real upset, and to me it seems she is upset about nothing, or she is oicking any thing she can to upset me.

Am I wrong <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> Is she legit in what she is saying?

I have not responded and don't plan on it as I am in plan B, but does she have a point?

i could give it a stab...but im not sure you want to hear it.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

LET ME PREFACE ANYTHING I SAY WITH YOU ARE IN NO WAY RESPONSIBLE FOR HER CHOICE FOR THE AFFAIR...NOND, NADA ZIP...THAT CHOICE IS ALL HERS......BUT-----ARE YOU REALLY LISTENING TO WHAT SHE IS SAYING?????

let me know if you want input...

alan,

Do you have an intermediary set up yet? If so, just start deleting voicemail from her without listening. She doesn't have anything constructive to say right now. Return notes and letter unread. Plan B means going dark, both ways.

And welcome back from your ski trip! I hope you had a wonderful time.

Dobie

Dobie, my aunt is our go between, and I would delete voice mail, I was just wondering if she has a valid point?

nikko, yes please jump in with you're thoughts, I would love to know what you think <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

The ski trip was great, the hamster is very good at it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Alank,

This is GREAT!! Okay, I know it hurts to hear. But you should feel good about three things II noticed here.

First off, you are maintaining a great Plan B!! Stick with it. It will get easier (for you!). Of course, it is getting harder for her.

Which leads me to number two. She is saying these things because Plan B is WORKING!!! She is stuck on the rollercoaster by herself. She is in pain, she misses you. She wants ALL of those things she mentioned...and more. She wants a life with you, and cannot understand why it hasnt happened...and how it could happen. The fog is swirling...and she is finally alone in it. A VERY scary place to be (FWSs can help me on this one!). This is the process she HAS to go thru!! She will at first blame EVERYTHING on you. She will bring up trivial things in order to mitigate her guilt. But, since she didnt get ahold of you, since she just left a message, she is stuck with the hollowness of what she has said. She KNOWS it doesnt exactly ring true. That even if you did do some of these things, that it still doesnt justify the affair. We know that. In the fog world, it is hard to see that. But she isnt devoid of ALL reality. There is still a little voice telling her that it doesnt add up...that she just might be wrong here. In order to silence that voice, she has to blame you, get you angry, and have you LB...so she can feel good again about her choices. But by staying dark, she is just talking to the fog! So, great job. It is all right out of the WS Handbook. When you look back on this, you will fully understand. But for now, please trust us that have been thru this that you are on the right track. And that I believe this is the beginning of the end. Of your marriage? I dont think so...but we will see. But I definitely believe this is the beginning of the end of the fog, and of the affair.

The third point is this. She is still spouting fogese. But when she does, there is truth in there. You must cull that out and be prepared to hold onto the truthes in there. Case in point. She said something about bringing her coffee and she wanted her car washed. Now, did she leave beacuase of coffee and a dirty car? No. That is fog! But, what does those things tell you? Maybe something about her needs, and what she needs from you. What she needed for you.

My wife was a sahm. She floored me two weeks ago (and this is one of the reasons that I believe that our recovery is real) that she wants to quit her nursing career (the one she just got a year ago and gave up everything for) and stay at home again and take care of the kids and me. She said that this is what we had married for and what she really wanted. But along the way, problems set in...then the affair and career. She is getting back to normal. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Your wife needed things as a sahm. Things neither you nor I understood. Sure, she would say things. But it didnt register. Am I right? Does that ring true? That coffee reference and car wash deal have everything to do with her ENs and what she needs. As Nikko said...are you listening?

Dont listen to the fog. Dont take it personally. Dont look at it as justification. Its not. But what it is can be an opportunity when your wife agrees to the PBL to begin recovery with. How so? Well, let's say she has agreed to the PBL. And she is now home and you are working on the marriage. What are some of the things you will do to begin to fill her love bank. Maybe coffee in the morning? Maybe making sure her car is washed and clean? Sounds small to me and you...but obviously big to her.

You want to know something? I just told my wife the other day that one of the biggest reasons that I backed away from her in the year before the affair (I became distant) had to do with shopping. How so? Well, we used to go grocery shopping together. I HATE shopping!! But I loved doing this with her every two weeks. But there was one thing she did during that grocery shopping that met my second highest need (affection). As we walked the aisles, she would rub her hand on the back of my arm as I pushed the cart. Small thing right? No, I realize now that what she had been doing was a BIG thing. I didnt go shopping with her because I wanted to buy groceries. I went shopping with her to spend time with her...and she met my need thru this very small act.

Do you see? This is what you are supposed to be doing now. Realizing what your wife will need when she comes home. I say when because she so far has been a classic case...and the odds are in your favor. She might not, but we will cross that road when we come to it.

So, what to do? Sit tight. If you want to respond to her messages, then email or mail the PBL letter again. But, besides that...no contact. I would send the letter to my wife when she was really pushing for contact. It let her know there was still one way back...but that until then, I was not having contact with her.

So, sit tight and watch the show. It will get easier for you...and harder for her. Eventually, the pain will force her to make a move. And the odds are, well...you know!

In His arms.

<small>[ January 24, 2005, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: Mortarman ]</small>

alan,

Don't get lost in the fog! See, this is why you need to block both directions of communication. I hate it when people do this to me, but turn the question back on yourself. Do you think it's your fault that she had an affair because you didn't bring her coffee or wash her car? Would you consider that justfication for you to have an affair if the situation was reversed? Were there any times when she didn't meet all of your needs perfectly?

Dobie

Mortarman ... awesome advise and support!

Kudos to you.

Pep

point taken dobie....

mortarman, It is just amazing how blind I may have been to some of her needs, I have a huge list of things she has told me over the last year, things about her needs.

If the time does come to invest in this M again I will be much more prepared for what I would need to do as an H.

nikko, I still want you're input, you seem to understand the SAHM thing and my WW's needs very well. I am off to a meeting, I will be back in a couple of hours.

Thanks for all the input dobie, and thanks mortarman, what you are saying makes sense, I am not ready to respond to her via email or anything else. thanks <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Great advice from Mortarman.
As to whether you should block messages and discard letters to you, you need to decide about that. As long as listening to messages does not soften your heart and tempt you to compromise your Plan B, go ahead and listen. You may get info that helps you. But just prepare yourself and don't be surprised when you hear things like "I wan't to come home" and badmouthing of OM. Remember it doesn't mean squat; the magic words are "This affair is over. I agree to no contact for life."

Does she have a point? Yes & No. Yes, you probably could have been a better spouse, we all could be better spouses. No, the whole point of her bringing this up is for her to transfer the blame of her A, the choice she made, from herself to you. She is figuring it out. What? Because you didn't get her fricking coffee that gives her license to have an A. No, it doesn't, and that is what she is figuring out.

She is just going through the stages, I heard the exact same things...because I didn't do the laundry more often...and this will pass. Last night, during another (extended) family crisis, my WW uttered the words "I (WW) need to take responsibility for my actions." Blew me over.

Going back to my comment about her not saying she wanted a D, proof she wants back. I should have clarified. It might not be proof that she wants back in the M, but it is proof that she is considering it by keeping her options open (fence sitting/cake eating). IMO I think they do want back in the M, otherwise, why are they hanging around? They have their perfect OP. Already told you how crappy of a SP you were, and the D subject was brought up and offered. The way out was there but they didn't take it. Must mean they don't want a D and are looking to find their way back home. Our job, as BS, is to let them back in. (Which is unfair as h*ll that the BS has to go thru this crap after being betrayed, but that is our choice.)

Those are just my thoughts. I would say that she is fence sitting and that this plan B is getting her to realize that she might lose you. So she needs to assign blame for the M's demise.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Mortarman:
<strong>She is saying these things because Plan B is WORKING!!!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">100%, absolutely, no question, no other answer needed, take it to the (love) bank correct!

(I didn't even read the rest of MM's reply!)

Alan - I still think we haven't gotten to you. You're trying to analyze what she's literally saying. This is like trying to make sense out of what a drunk is saying. IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

Step back and listen deeper. Oh, and there may be some tidbits in what she says that you need to pay attention to.

WAT

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by tqt:
<strong>Anyone have any words of wisdom on the subject, ie. why the WS doesn't file, even though taken at face value, all indications are that they want to? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think anyone mentioned one of the major reasons: they'd prefer that the BS file - so they can say it wasn't their idea and they get (some) regret avoidance in the future.

The biggest mistake I think BSs make is trying to treat and communicate to their WSs as if they are being logical. It's far more accurate to think of them as devious, selfish, and adolescent-like. Re-read Rule #1.

WAT,

I think you have got to me. At times I may over analyze a few things, for me it is part of my plan to improve me.

I listen to what my WW say's and I look for things that may be true. If I can understand me a bit better, then I will have the ability to be a better person.

I understand her fog, the one thing I left out was at the end of her message she said "so what did you expect from me"

I would love to tell her i didn't expect an A, perhaps something else, like hey hon, I am unhappy and I am done with this M for these reasons.

Right now I am trying to look through her fog and listen and learn. She will have some valid points, I just want to make sure I am aware of them in case we do ever have a chance at this.

I do belive my Plan B is having some effect on her, it is obvious, I am just trying to learn.

ok first off....what mortorman said!!! very good post!

second...do i need to go over the preface again??? if so scroll back and re-read it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

let me first say---i only became a stay at home mom after this happened....i eventually lost my job. had a nervous breakdown and a bunch of other crap----here is safe right now! i was a professional before this and always worked. had my own life and enjoyed myself and my kids....the only thing that was missing was my husband and their father. im not gonna go over it---you work the same career---you know what i mean.

so---how do we change it---tell me first what youve written down as her tidbits of truth in the fog.(and please make a firm decision for a set amount of time that your gonna work on this....)

she sounds as if she begged for nothing but your time and to be important to you....unfortunately i am familiar with the feeling. give us the list first and ill see if i can help...remember---whether you fix these things for your wife or not---they still need to be fixed......

Hey man...WAT is right on as usual about the alien theory!! I am up for making it a LAW instead of a theory. I think we have enough proof! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"so what did you expect from me" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This is rhetorical. She is NOT asking you this question. She is asking HERSELF!! Do you see how easy reading fogese is. As WAT says, dont take things at face value. Read deeper. That question is swirling in her mind.

She is thinking "What did anyone expect of me?" The answer that comes back is "Well, not to have an affair." But that doesnt jive with the decision she made. That means she was (and is) wrong. And that means PAIN! She isnt ready for that yet. So she puts it on you. But, when you dont except it in Plan B...then the answer still goes unanswered for her. Eventually, she will get it.

Actually, I have found that they dont get the answer to that question until well into recovery. that they still do some blaming while they enter recovery. They can only take the guilt in bite sized amounts. So dont expect the blaming to fully cease until a lot later. I still get it from time-to-time!

So, just like we said...educate yourself. Learn how to read fogese. Learn the truth in there and I like what was mentioned earlier about setting time apart to really go over these little nuggets and write them down. And contemplate how you could have (and WILL) be a better husband. To your current wife, or a new one.

In His arms.

(continuing Mortarman's logic)

.....denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

I believe the numero uno priority in the WS's mind is assignment of all blame onto others - princibly the BS - for what they HAD to do. They HAVE to project blame and deny wrongdoing - or at least make justifications that assign excuses to others - in order to proceed with their prior decisions.

They HAVE to because they have painted over all the mirrors in their lives. Someone is to blame and it certainly isn't THEM!

When recovery never occurs, as in my case, this psychological posturing "matures" <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> from the blame game into the regret avoidance game. My XW continues to make me into the boogie man - almost three years after our divorce - because (I believe) she needs to have a mechanism to avoid regret for the things that now never can be recovered. She needs to continue to see me as unworthy, untrustworthy, a poor parent, and any other ill that reinforces her decisions to divorce me and marry OM. She HAS to. Otherwise, she'd have to question herself - and THAT can't happen!

As long as people like this can keep their demons buried, others will shoulder the blame for all things messy.

WAT

Well I have spoken to the WW. It was not my intention yet by force of habit and being busy I answered the phone.

Seem's like life with the OM is not so great right now <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" /> She is pushing for a R with him, yet he does not want that. She has asked him a few times what it is he wants, he has no reply for her.

It has been a few weeks since they have been together. Remember the silk undies, he has made no attempt to even see her in them?

She is realy hurt right now by him <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't want to gloat, and I don't want to see her hurt yet it was nice to know. I am still in plan B, and I did nothing more than listen to her, yet do I respond in anyway?

Can I say anything that would help her in this foggy situation she is in?

I have no Idea what that was but I was glad to hear it.